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DB Cooper

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(edited)
8 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I don't see any pop rivets on the decal on the door? 

727ventralcontrola.jpg.1be8e9ebea1a46f6baff010526b6104f.jpg

right, that is the main door.. I found no rivets for any similar placards that suggests the rivets weren't for the placard but for the emergency access panel itself. When pulled they release from wall.

 

something like this..

placdoor.jpg.5d355ce8c7a4dfa4903a4dea367d3b64.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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I use rivets a lot. this doesn't look like the work of rivets. only the top right could suggest it. the material is very thin and the pop rivet would fail quickly with force. the scale you show is much smaller than the card. it's somewhere around 6" in height. the panel in whole is somewhere in the 6 to 8" height. it would cover the holes. 

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(edited)
7 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I use rivets a lot. this doesn't look like the work of rivets. only the top right could suggest it. the material is very thin and the pop rivet would fail quickly with force. the scale you show is much smaller than the card. it's somewhere around 6" in height. the panel in whole is somewhere in the 6 to 8" height. it would cover the holes. 

We are using the term rivet, but they may be some fastener that enables a release from the wall. 

They held the thicker plastic access door to the wall not the placard to the door.

 

My point is the "rivets/screws/fasteners" weren't for the placard at all, they were for the plastic access door.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 minute ago, mrshutter45 said:

pop rivets

Boeing-737-placard-in-airplane.png

You are getting lost in the weeds.. rivets were used for solid signage.

The placard found was a thin decal that was folded up.. there are no similar ones fixed with rivets/screws/fasteners.

That indicates the holes in the placard were not used to affix it but something else it was stuck to.

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2 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

It's on a aluminum frame. pop rivets would not be the weapon of choice for a release of the panel.

WE don't know if they were rivets we are using that term for brevity..

 

Those rivets/screws/fasteners - whatever - would not be attached to the al frame, they'd be permanently attached to some clip or release on the back of the access door..

the back of that access door probably has 5 clips on it.

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yes, it needs a break away. pop rivets won't do that. clip will. it appears the panel is too small for this placard. Hominid believes each airline might of had there own placards. some could of been small enough to fit the panel while others could be above or beside the panel itself. 

I doubt the placard came first. if that is what you are suggesting? 

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Hominid...

The placard was on the outside of a panel door that was adjacent to the normal airstair 
control handle.  It was "stuck" there with adhesive.  It was probably made of metal foil, 
but might have been plastic.  Inside that door was the control that the placard related 
to, the control for the "emergency" (pneumatic) airstair extension system.  The control 
was a red handle that had to be pulled hard in order to break a lockwire.  NWA did not 
want people pulling the handle by mistake thinking it to be the normal way of dropping the 
stair.  This is why it was inside a "cabinet" and had the lockwire.  They didn't want it 
to be used for a routine dropping of the airstair because using this system would damage 
the stair such that it would have to be repaired before it could be closed and locked for 
flight.
 
If you can get info from Boeing, and you want it to be about the placard, ask about the 
emergency pneumatic airstair extension placard that was on the NWA 727-51s in the early 
'70s.  It's likely they won't know about the placard as it may well have been made by NWA 
or under contract to NWA.  It's even possible that Boeing did not install the system for 
NWA.  The control for some other airlines were a bit different and were located different.

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(edited)
45 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

yes, it needs a break away. pop rivets won't do that. clip will. it appears the panel is too small for this placard. Hominid believes each airline might of had there own placards. some could of been small enough to fit the panel while others could be above or beside the panel itself. 

I doubt the placard came first. if that is what you are suggesting? 

I think the placard was on the emergency access door, it may have been above but unlikely.

Why,, the holes from rivets/screws/fasteners or "whatever" would not be there to hold the placard to the wall or anything. It is a decal.. 

The access door needs something to affix it to the underlying panel that releases when pulled. The finger holes at the top makes the 5 clip pattern I suggested work. The pull leverage is from the top down.

You would need at least 5 points for spring or tension clips to hold it securely. 

So, the placard/decal is stuck to the access door and the access door has 5 "rivets/screws/fasteners" holding clips to the backside of it. The rivet/screw heads are on top of the placard/decal. That suggests placard/decal was affixed to door before clips and originally by Boeing.

It is unlikely you'd get that pattern of tear holes in the placard any other way. 

I'd expect 5 plastic spring clips permanently attached to the back of the plastic access door.. probably rivets but maybe screws or something similar?

 

SOOOO, if the access door went missing during NORJAK why didn't they notice it?

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
53 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Hominid...

The placard was on the outside of a panel door that was adjacent to the normal airstair 
control handle.  It was "stuck" there with adhesive.  It was probably made of metal foil, 
but might have been plastic.  Inside that door was the control that the placard related 
to, the control for the "emergency" (pneumatic) airstair extension system.  The control 
was a red handle that had to be pulled hard in order to break a lockwire.  NWA did not 
want people pulling the handle by mistake thinking it to be the normal way of dropping the 
stair.  This is why it was inside a "cabinet" and had the lockwire.  They didn't want it 
to be used for a routine dropping of the airstair because using this system would damage 
the stair such that it would have to be repaired before it could be closed and locked for 
flight.
 
If you can get info from Boeing, and you want it to be about the placard, ask about the 
emergency pneumatic airstair extension placard that was on the NWA 727-51s in the early 
'70s.  It's likely they won't know about the placard as it may well have been made by NWA 
or under contract to NWA.  It's even possible that Boeing did not install the system for 
NWA.  The control for some other airlines were a bit different and were located different.

Most were installed by Boeing on the early 727-100's

Hominid is correct some kits were sold "after"...

The placard may been custom or factory or there may have been no placard..

The placard looks like it has a number on it bottom right, that is probably a part number that the FBI used to claim it matches a 727.. that indicates it was a Boeing part, not custom. 

If it came during NORJAK without the access door then pieces would have been left behind on the wall, noticed  and can be matched, it wasn't. The FBI claimed it "matched" placards for the 727 not that exact 727. If it came off with the access door it would have been noticed missing. 

 

Conclusion, unlikely it came off during NORJAK. 

placard1.jpg.3e3d08436604e5ae92c34a8bb549ac3c.jpg

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Looking for "placards" that are held on with "rivets/screws" I found the Martin 202A.. they also had ventral airstairs. They were also used by Northwest.

Cooper had aviation experience but didn't understand the operation for the 727 airstairs, maybe he got the jump idea from the older gen Martin 202A...  were there any other older gen planes with ventral stairs?

EDIT: there was also the later Martin 404 with ventral stairs and pressurized, which was also used in the navy. Maybe Cooper flew or was involved with these planes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_4-0-4

I always thought Cooper Boeing employee and 727 expert was a red herring..

If Cooper was in "aviation" or flew frequently and 45-50 yrs old, he'd have exposure to these..

 

martin202Aaftstairs.jpeg.9837fb2a1d423666a0f80f796efc7f81.jpeg

Northwest_Martin_202_(4589907903).jpg

martin202ventralstairs.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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6 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

it's hard to say how it got so damaged. Georger believes it was on exit. I'm not sure about that because it would also destroy anyone jumping out?

Not sure exactly what you mean, but a person would easily survive a 200mph exit. Fighter pilots eject at much higher speeds.

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(edited)
1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

Not sure exactly what you mean, but a person would easily survive a 200mph exit. Fighter pilots eject at much higher speeds.

It's in reference to the damage of the placard. how it got in the condition it was found. it didn't seem to affect skydivers so what would it do to the card? 

Edited by mrshutter45

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Try to follow along for once....the AMBOY chute was part of the DB Cooper investigation. they came to the conclusion it wasn't from flight 305...are you with me so far? Now, since it's part of an on going investigation they are not required to bow to the public for answers a few want. they have a policy that states that they will not discuss any parts of an on going investigation. that means things that turned up being a dead end as well. still with me? you would get the very same result asking for the files on the suspects they eliminated. you would get the same results asking for anything surrounding the case whether or not it was part of the case. it still falls in the category of an open case, got it? they owe us nothing. yes, they should explain but they don't feel obligated. that doesn't mean they are hiding anything. they concluded the chute wasn't part of flight 305...where did it become evidence again? it's simply a chute that is technically evidence since it surrounds a parachute case. that doesn't mean it is evidence from the hijacking. a container was found in Portland  after the hijacking..since it wasn't part of the crime it was no longer of value. they won't discuss that either. a parachute was found in 2001 and you will get the same results asking about that too. it's not from 305. it's still connected to the case and they will not comment. 

 

The chute measures 34' in diameter...was that pulled out of a hat?

The markings are not consistent with a personnel chute.

Those two alone suggest possibly an old army surplus chute. nobody knows how long it was in the location found. weeks, months or years. the known evidence doesn't fit the chutes from the plane. 

Ask the jumpers how many containers hold a 34' canopy? 

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