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It wasn't used......the defense would never admit to knowledge of something not used in the crime. the DA decided it wasn't of any value. the chute he tore apart would be used to help explain the crime, but not to convict. they wouldn't need another chute. obviously, it would be something very strong to get him in court in the first place. items linking him to the crime. the ticket, notes, the chute he used. I fail to see a quote from the DA explaining it wasn't on the plane. my guess he would of noted that..

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21 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

It wasn't used......the defense would never admit to knowledge of something not used in the crime. the DA decided it wasn't of any value. the chute he tore apart would be used to help explain the crime, but not to convict. they wouldn't need another chute. obviously, it would be something very strong to get him in court in the first place. items linking him to the crime. the ticket, notes, the chute he used. I fail to see a quote from the DA explaining it wasn't on the plane. my guess he would of noted that..

I disagree, the chute left by Cooper is evidence..

Why don't you ask Mark 377..

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Read what it says...the chute was returned after the DA decided NOT to use it as evidence....that doesn't mean it wasn't. the FBI is not going to keep something that is of no use. the DA found it not relevant to use. if they can't prove the hair from the towel doesn't belong to Cooper. that will not be used either..that was evidence? 

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22 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Cross your fingers...I found the contact to try and gain access to a 727-200 owned by FedEx. I'm calling him tomorrow..hopefully, the placard will be on it along with the door...

I have read that the optional "emergency release" was not an option on the cargo planes or 727-200's, so it won't have the same placard.. but it would still good to get detailed images..

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Hominid wrote this in a email to me in 2014...

 

The emergency extension system was not part of the original design.  It was added by some 
airlines, mostly in cargo planes, about 1970.  A few years after the hijacking, most 
airlines removed it about the same time they changed the normal airstair system so as not 
to require manual control of the hydraulics for normal use of the stairs.  This was when 
the pushbutton was removed from the end of the lever for the normal airstair control.  The 
adding, then removing, of the emergency extension system is why it is important to include 
the timeframe when asking someone about the airstair.

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(edited)
1 hour ago, mrshutter45 said:

Hominid wrote this in a email to me in 2014...

 

The emergency extension system was not part of the original design.  It was added by some 
airlines, mostly in cargo planes, about 1970.  A few years after the hijacking, most 
airlines removed it about the same time they changed the normal airstair system so as not 
to require manual control of the hydraulics for normal use of the stairs.  This was when 
the pushbutton was removed from the end of the lever for the normal airstair control.  The 
adding, then removing, of the emergency extension system is why it is important to include 
the timeframe when asking someone about the airstair.

That isn't quite accurate, not on 727-200's.. 164 727-100 passenger and 91 cargo/passenger "combi" jets were manufactured with the "emergency release" and 63 modification kits sold.  I don't have info about removal but they are uncommon and hard to find.. 

 

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp12296-schedulea-section2-5545.htm#section1

 

B-727-100/200 Doors (Type I)

Aft Airstairs (Ventral)

H - 1.93 (6 ft 4 in) W - 0.81 m (2 ft 8 in)

Approximate force required to move door control handle from closed/locked position to open position: 10 kg (22 lbs).

Door and Control Handle - 100 Series Control Handle has button on top of handle used in conjunction with handle to electrically raise/lower stair assembly.

Emergency Use (100 series) - inside stairway. Remove emergency access covers; pull sharply on release handle (inward). Action will cause uplocks to be sheared and forcibly extend stairs extensive damage will be caused to system).

/200

AFT Airstairs no alternate emergency handles NORMAL and EMERGENCY functions controlled by the single door control handle.

 

727airstairemergency.jpeg

727100emergencyairstair.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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After reviewing the many posts regarding the placard, the winds aloft, etc I have come to the idea that any search conducted in the Castle Rock area would only be a gesture. Since the area has been logged and replanted more than a few times over the years, perhaps going back to before 1920, we have more chance of finding a lost gold coin by some old logger than finding anything from the hijacking. 

Back in the late 70s I went on some bottle-digging trips with a guy who was quite good at this sort of thing. He used very old maps of Washington State to locate small villages and logging towns in the Cascades that no longer existed. His theory, that most garbage was piled into dumps and buried, was quite accurate. He would use a metal detector and a long metal probe to find these old dumps. He also was occasionally able to identify where outhouses were located as well. He said if you dug them out, sometimes you would find a gold piece dropped by a logger into the toilet vault pits. From the ground, these dump and pit areas looked like normal 'woods' today, except sometimes the ground was a bit softer than the surrounding area, and you would get hits from the metal detector of the old tobacco cans, food cans, etc. He often found items like the ones shown in the picture below. 

I doubt we would find any bottles, or any gold piece for that matter. Maybe this trip is more of a Cooper gathering of the minds and a historical marker installation...rather than a REAL search for evidence. 

 

oldbottles.jpg

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(edited)

I think the odds are greater the placard was not pop riveted. the way the placard looks does suggest it. the thickness of the card is very thin. in the photo you will see a similar placard. this is from a smoke door on a cargo plane.

smoke door.png

Edited by mrshutter45

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Up early this morning and I issued a warning to Darren S at the Cooper Vortex, and Nicky B:  Unless I see mainstream support on this Castle Rock project over the coming week, I will CANCEL it in a heartbeat before Weyerhauser Land Use Manager April Deal returns from her vacation. 

Personally, I have HAD it. Neither of them, or anyone else in Cooperland for that matter, has made a single supporting link or post to this project at either MN, The DB Cooper Forum, Dropzone, (only me, not anyone actually wanting to attend) or even Facebook. 

Meanwhile...back at the ranch...I keep getting flooded with emails from a few people who have attended previous 'Cooper Campouts' bitching that on THOSE events...they were provided with the PDF containing the maps, the details, all the contact info, that they could show up anytime they managed to get there, (we would be set up on Friday morning, some didn't show until Saturday morning or later) that they didn't have to show at a specific time because a locked gate was involved, because it sounds more like work than a real celebration like the other times, whatever. Yada, yada, and they go on to say there isn't any mainstream support anyway. 

Their reasons are endless. Some of the messages are coming from the Seattle-area folks, some from the Oregon folks. Both groups are either associated with Infamous Nissan, the support group for Nissan owners, or have been on prior Cooper campouts. They are doing major complaining and urging me to dump the whole program in favor of something more realistic to be held (again) in the National Forest...where you don't need a key or restrictions on what can be done while camping on Weyerhauser property. I can't blame them. They had a lot more fun when we went Forest Service areas, which are much more liberal as long as you clean up your trash. 

I am frickin' TIRED of this go-around. You would think that the guy wanting to drive all the way from Idaho to Portland (Darren at Cooper Vortex) would get serious, or maybe the guy buying a round trip plane ticket to Portland from LA would get serious. (Nicky B) Neither of them have to date. 

Some people have already bailed on the project, because they think I'M the only one promoting, or even interested in this project. Or even attending. 

This is what happens when people try to shut each other out all the time. OR...they are afraid to post here or there on something Cooper-related because they think people will ostracize them, or they will get banned. 

I gave exactly ONE WEEK for interest to improve in Cooperland, or I will 200% cancel the whole thing and just go with either a general Cooper Campout for the Oregon folks, (east of Doreen Lake near Cottage Grove), or do another one in the Olympics for the Puget Sound folks about 20 miles NW of Shelton, WA. If I pick one of them the other will follow in August. That way everyone will be happy. Attendance to those has never been a problem, and after 14 people were confirmed, I started telling people we were at capacity. The only time we didn't reach capacity was the March 2019 trip, where we only had eight total show up. That was because I changed the date three times due to the bad weather and snow. 

I have absolutely HAD it. Let someone else do this useless search, deal with Weyerhauser, arrange everything, organize a caravan, blow major bucks out of our bank accounts, whatever. All I see is lip service and that doesn't cut it with me. 

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(edited)

Ask and you shall receive...CANCELLED. I removed the notice from the homepage at AB, and will delete all other references at Facebook, Quora, YouTube, WordPress, etc. by this evening after work.

Email sent to April Deal at Weyerhauser thanking her anyway.

Update done at Infamous Nissan. Now I have to contact our newbies and regulars and let them know where we're going for REAL. Probably will do Oregon Doreen Lake area trip first, since I am already near capacity with those guys. 

Frankly, I'm relieved. 
EDIT: 
It only took a few minutes. All references to the project, as well as its associated video, have been deleted from YouTube, Quora, AB of Seattle, Facebook, etc. I will do a video over the weekend, and update with new information on a general Cooper campout June 21-24 in Oregon. The Oregon folks will be happy, I'm sure. So am I. From now on, I think I will leave the ground search projects to others, and do what I know best, hosting Cooper Campout parties with movies and BBQ's. Those seem to be a lot more popular. April Deal at Weyerhauser has been notified, along with some other folks who needed to know.

No need to worry about this. Everything will be fine. The search proposal trip was a bit of a reach anyway, and we would have found exactly nothing anyway. So I am not upset at all. Relieved, as I said, is more like it. Now we can just move on to another Cooper Campout, which are a proven success anyway. And a lot more fun for everyone. 

Let's face it. Some of my ideas have been okay, some haven't. This was a 'haven't. I should have known from the start. Even the folks who committed to go barely said a thing about it. Oregon will be a lot more fun, I'm sure. My mistake was investing so much time and effort in Castle Rock before I checked out how much support the idea really had. It had little to none...better to just ditch it now rather than wait until the last minute. No hard feelings at all here. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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2 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

I think the odds are greater the placard was not pop riveted. the way the placard looks does suggest it. the thickness of the card is very thin. in the photo you will see a similar placard. this is from a smoke door on a cargo plane.

smoke door.png

It clearly had rivets/screws.. which is odd. I couldn't find any like that 727 or otherwise. Everything was decals, it may have been an earlier era plane, maybe not even a 727 as many planes had "AFT AIRSTAIRS" rear side. The 727 emergency release decal I did find said "VENTRAL AIRSTAIRS". 

 

 placard22.jpg.a235cf05adea23753dee4ee2b51b0c65.jpg

placard.jpg

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15 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It clearly had rivets/screws.. which is odd.

If the notices and placards were installed at Boeing, it is more likely that riveting was DONE at Boeing. If they were attached in any other way besides riveting or being straight stick-on decals, this was probably done by the airline. Airline mechanics aren't going to break out a rivet gun for a single notice sign. They might stick on a provided decal, or glue on a notice encased in plastic, but a rivet gun is unlikely. 

Good news: Emails are coming in regarding the Doreen Lake campout. People are happy I changed my mind, I guess. We're at capacity, but I'm going to invite a few additional folks anyway. If we spread out the site a bit, we can take more than 14 people this time. Seems like this is necessary, and there is still almost six weeks to go. 

I can see it now...I will have to break the Costco budget for sure. 

I have to admit it to myself. The Castle Rock search idea was a bad one from the start. 

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(edited)

I'm not saying it was a decal, thin like a decal. thin plastic separates it from a decal. it's obviously thin enough to tear easily.

Rivets can be done easily by the mechanics. I have several different pop rivet guns that are manual and air..

Edited by mrshutter45

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(edited)
35 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I'm not saying it was a decal, thin like a decal. thin plastic separates it from a decal. it's obviously thin enough to tear easily.

Rivets can be done easily by the mechanics. I have several different pop rivet guns that are manual and air..

I agree like a decal, but no adhesive.. a thin plastic placard? thin enough to easily fold.

but why rivets/screws?? I can't find any airplane placard using rivets/screws.. did they fasten the access door and (they) release from the wall with the door?? if so then the door finger holes must have been above the placard and the placard blew off the access door after leaving the plane. A missing access door would have been noticed.

and does it look like it was in the forest for 7 years? not really..

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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I never said it had rivets or screws? always thought that was you...

I doubt enough wind got in the stairs to do that. I see piano hinges holding the doors. those are strong. I can see Cooper tearing off the placard or the door and if he was right handed it would go down the stairs. 

Pictures are needed of the interior of those stairs to verify it had two doors. they should of easily noticed the door missing. they said they didn't notice it missing until after the testing. nothing about a door. only the placard. if it didn't have this function. it didn't come from 305. 

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(edited)
18 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

The only possibility would be the historical society for Northwest in Minnesota. boeing only sells the plane..

One of those docs I posted quoted Boeing for furnishing numbers of 727's with optional "emergency airstair release" installed and after kits sold. They have the info,,

Edited by FLYJACK

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