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quade

DB Cooper

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(edited)
10 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

when you have conflicting reports...nothing can be overwhelming...

Where is the conflict?

 

The chute Hayden rec'd back from FBI was not the same one found on the plane. There had to be more than 2 back chutes involved. I can see a call out for chutes, 2 chutes arrive in a taxi from Hayden, 2 from Cossey, somebody grabs one from each and sends to the plane.

Cooper uses Cossey's and leaves Hayden's.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
37 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That doesn't make sense,, your analysis isn't comprehensive and taking into account all the info. Did you read ALL the FBI docs I posted.

On one report they stated "length" that was an error. The packing card only says 24' or 26'. So, even if the "length" error is discounted there is overwelhming documentation to show that the chute found on the plane wasn't the one Hayden received.

 

Hayden sent in 2 Pioneer back chutes both packed May 21/71..

The Pioneer found on  the plane doesn't match the one given back to Hayden..

It is a different diameter, different year, different serial number, packed same date as Hayden's as noted in several files.

Two Pioneer back chutes were taken into evidence, so there had to be more than 2 back chutes. Cossey claimed he sent in two of his personal chutes. It all fits.

Cooper jumped with one of Cossey's chutes, likely the customized 28 ft.

 

Some FBI files do claim Cossey owned the chute given Cooper.

 

Finally, Cossey claimed the chute Cooper took was modified. Why would Cossey modify only one of Hayden's two chutes, a customer? makes no sense.

Oops. No. I hadn't read all of it. I didn't realize how many more pages had been posted. I was responding to the pic a few pages back of the document with the pic of the packing data card below it.

So I missed a few things when I posted. Sorry about that. 

 

One of the things I hadn't seen was where you realized that the FBI mixed up the S/N (226) with the DOM (9/57). 

I can't understand how the reports are reading that they found two Pioneer back rigs on the plane (and it says the NG left one there? For how long?). 

The doc posted directly above my last post claims that the 24' Steinthal was an integral part of this parachute. That makes absolutely no sense. They describe two canopies, but only one container. Modern sport gear is like that. My personal rig (parachute) has both my main and reserve canopies (square ones) in one 'backpack'. But gear back then was not like that. And these were 'bailout' emergency rigs, which even today are 'single canopy' types (often rounds). 

 

Something to remember is that, even today, the 'Harness/container' (backpack) and "canopy" (parachute) are separate components. Each has it's own manufacturer, serial number and date of manufacture. For example, I jump an Infinity H/C, made by Velocity sports. I also jump a 170 square foot Sabre2, made by Performance Designs as a main canopy. 
There are a few companies today that make both H/Cs and canopies (Aerodyne is one). But most places only make one. 

I don't see any evidence of two complete, intact back rigs being found. 
What I think I see is evidence that the FBI knew very little about parachutes or their terminology and made a bunch of mistakes on the reports.
From the report before my post, it's possible that it was a Pioneer H/C, S/N 226, DOM 9/57;with a Steinthal canopy, S/N 60-9707, DOM 7/60. My PDC shows different mfgs, S/Ns & DOMs for the Infinity H/C and the Sabre2 canopy. 

Also, on the modified NB-8 and Cossey only modifying one rig of Hayden's. 
My guess would be that the rig was modified some time in the past, prior to Hayden purchasing it. He needed a couple bailout rigs, to grudgingly meet the FARs. So he got a couple. One was a civilian, unmodified Pioneer, the other was the Military NB-8 that had the 'outboard pull' mod. It wasn't that Cossey modded it when he sold it, it was that he sold a modded rig.

 

Edit to add:

JJG78 posted: 

Quote

How far back to posts go on this topic of DB Cooper? I see February 2008, but it sounds like it goes back further than that.  I might not be using the search function correctly. I thought a FBI agent named Ckret posted on here at one point.

Yes. There was an earlier thread that got locked because people got stupid. If you go back to the beginning of this one, you will see Quade (who was a moderator) posted 'keep it civil'. 
If you read down, there is a link to the original thread in the first or second page.

There's a ton of info, most of the 'known details' in that first thread or the beginning of this one. 

Larry Carr was an FBI agent, specializing in bank robberies, in the Seattle FBI office. IIRC, he's now on the east coast somewhere. He posted under the name Ckret for some time. He provided a fair amount of info that the FBI had, although he admitted he couldn't post everything he knew (his basic answer was 'go ahead and ask. If I have the info and am allowed to release it I will').

Edited by wolfriverjoe

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Emerick gave two reserves to the highway patrol. Emerick was alone. documented.

Hayden provided two chutes via taxi cab...

where is the third vehicle delivering other chutes? Hayden was alone I suspect. 

Hayden stated he had a 26' canopy and a 28'. he got back the 28' foot but the document below states Cooper has a 28' canopy and a reserve marked with "NormD"  with a white canopy as the dummy chute suggests. no mention of an X on the canopy. this is called a conflict?

You watch "In Search Of" and Cossey himself claims Cooper has a 28' canopy in a military container with a ripcord being hard to find? not a 26'. we have a 26' and 28' canopy that Cooper took with him..you can't have 2. that's a huge conflict? 

2001.png

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The document I provided was in reference to a chute found in the Columbia. they gave the description of the chutes Cooper had to try and match them with what was found in August of 2001. Hayden is missing a 26' canopy...conflict. 

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(edited)
6 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Emerick gave two reserves to the highway patrol. Emerick was alone. documented.

Hayden provided two chutes via taxi cab...

where is the third vehicle delivering other chutes? Hayden was alone I suspect. 

Hayden stated he had a 26' canopy and a 28'. he got back the 28' foot but the document below states Cooper has a 28' canopy and a reserve marked with "NormD"  with a white canopy as the dummy chute suggests. no mention of an X on the canopy. this is called a conflict?

You watch "In Search Of" and Cossey himself claims Cooper has a 28' canopy in a military container with a ripcord being hard to find? not a 26'. we have a 26' and 28' canopy that Cooper took with him..you can't have 2. that's a huge conflict? 

2001.png

Hayden also stated to Bruce he wasn't sure what was in them.. Hayden got back the 26'...

Cossey claimed the chutes came from his house, not Issaquah..

Cossey claimed Cooper took his 28'..

dbc-parachutes-hayden-card-pararchute-identification-4.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
56 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Oops. No. I hadn't read all of it. I didn't realize how many more pages had been posted. I was responding to the pic a few pages back of the document with the pic of the packing data card below it.

So I missed a few things when I posted. Sorry about that. 

 

One of the things I hadn't seen was where you realized that the FBI mixed up the S/N (226) with the DOM (9/57). 

I can't understand how the reports are reading that they found two Pioneer back rigs on the plane (and it says the NG left one there? For how long?). 

The doc posted directly above my last post claims that the 24' Steinthal was an integral part of this parachute. That makes absolutely no sense. They describe two canopies, but only one container. Modern sport gear is like that. My personal rig (parachute) has both my main and reserve canopies (square ones) in one 'backpack'. But gear back then was not like that. And these were 'bailout' emergency rigs, which even today are 'single canopy' types (often rounds). 

 

Something to remember is that, even today, the 'Harness/container' (backpack) and "canopy" (parachute) are separate components. Each has it's own manufacturer, serial number and date of manufacture. For example, I jump an Infinity H/C, made by Velocity sports. I also jump a 170 square foot Sabre2, made by Performance Designs as a main canopy. 
There are a few companies today that make both H/Cs and canopies (Aerodyne is one). But most places only make one. 

I don't see any evidence of two complete, intact back rigs being found. 
What I think I see is evidence that the FBI knew very little about parachutes or their terminology and made a bunch of mistakes on the reports.
From the report before my post, it's possible that it was a Pioneer H/C, S/N 226, DOM 9/57;with a Steinthal canopy, S/N 60-9707, DOM 7/60. My PDC shows different mfgs, S/Ns & DOMs for the Infinity H/C and the Sabre2 canopy. 

Also, on the modified NB-8 and Cossey only modifying one rig of Hayden's. 
My guess would be that the rig was modified some time in the past, prior to Hayden purchasing it. He needed a couple bailout rigs, to grudgingly meet the FARs. So he got a couple. One was a civilian, unmodified Pioneer, the other was the Military NB-8 that had the 'outboard pull' mod. It wasn't that Cossey modded it when he sold it, it was that he sold a modded rig.

 

 

The info came from the packing cards.. and matches the info layout.

One matches the one Hayden got back, the other doesn't at all..

Cossey claimed the custom/modified rig was his own personal one.. and was used by Cooper.

I find it hard to believe that a customer would have 1 modified chute and one not.

 

I noodled this for a bit and tried to figure out different scenarios that could fit the evidence..  the only thing that fits is that there were more than 2 back chutes and Cooper jumped with one of Cossey's.

 

These are two different chutes..

Hayden got the 1957 back and the other was left on the plane, both have the same packing date.

"this also was packed by E. J. Cossey on 5/21/71."

coopevidence.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Correct, I got it backwards. this now matches what they have on record...28' canopy that Hayden is missing and is in the report from the lab..

One thought I had was that one found on the plane was Cossey's Pioneer but it was packed the same May 21/71 date as Hayden's.. that would be an amazing co-incidence and slim... and the one Hayden got back was never on the plane.

Cossey hearing that a Pioneer was found on the plane would have assumed his custom chute was taken by Cooper. Then Cooper would have taken Hayden's 28 ft..

But, any way you slice it, there had to be more than 2 back chutes involved.

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(edited)
28 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Find info on a Steinthal 60-9707....doesn't make sense. 24' sounds more like a reserve. 

 

If it was there it would have a "physical" label of "F"

why, the 1957 Hayden got back was in evidence but not necessarily on the plane and several other docs ID another chute as the Pioneer found on the plane.

Perhaps the 24' is an error/typo but all the other info doesn't match the chute Hayden rec'd.. the only real conflict is the "24' length" written down by the National Guard.

The reserve found on the plane is clearly ID,d  with different S/N and date etc...

The packing date for the back chute matches Hayden's chute(s).

chutefoundnorjak.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Perhaps, a lot of it is in error?

You have one National Guard statement on one side and many overwhelming FBI docs and Cossey's claims on the other..

If you want to claim perhaps it is all in error and Cossey is a liar then why not expand that to the entire case.. how can we trust any FBI docs..

You have to use reason and logic to sort these things out. Using a minor conflict to discount everything else will get you nowhere.

 

Ultimately, this case is an intellectual puzzle, we actually have very few pieces, some that don't even fit and many being hidden from us. WE need to apply critical thinking to advance it and solve it, we aren't getting any new evidence and the info in the FBI docs has been evaluated by them with no results..

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1 hour ago, mrshutter45 said:

"Find info on a Steinthal 60-9707"

I'm still waiting on someone to show a photo of the chute mentioned above? 

Here's a thought that may clear up one of the mysteries. Is it possible that that second chute, described as "an integral part of the parachute" is the PILOT CHUTE for that rig? A pilot chute is a small, spring-loaded chute that pops out when you pull the ripcord. It anchors in the air and pulls out the primary parachute. It could be another FBI typo, perhaps it's 24 inches, not 24 feet. Don't know if the manufacturer/part number/serial number is consistent with that, but maybe Joe or 377 can find that out.

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(edited)
38 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Cossey claims none of the reserves had pilot chutes. none of the back chutes were opened on the plane. 

serial number 7/60?

I get nothing looking into that model number...

7/60 is the mfr date, not the serial number..

The way the packing card reads the label is below but it appears above..

Both of these had packing cards.. 2 cards, 2 chutes packed on the same day.. the day Hayden acquired both his chutes.

1. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 26 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO: 226, DATE OF MFR 9/57 (1957) --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (Hayden got this one back)

2. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 24 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO:  260-9707, DATE OF MFR: 7/60 (1960)  --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard in Reno)

 

dbc-parachutes-hayden-card-pararchute-identification-4.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

It's almost sounds as if they are describing the chute inside the unopened parachute found on the plane. the letters indicate physical evidence. we see two chutes E& F. with notations under the lettered and underlined paragraphs. could the canopy be from Steinthal and they got things mixed up there? they are claiming the "integral part of of the parachute is a 24' made by Steinthal." the second paragraph seems to be in reference to the unopened chute. still could be 26' and documented wrong. 

 

They label the first chute "E" underlining everything. the next paragraph seems to be surrounding it's content.

The second chute is labeled "F" and descriptions given that are also underlined. then the next paragraph states it was found on the plane but was opened and lines cut. they even got that wrong. 5 lines were cut...

 

When looking at the canopy you will see Pioneer on the harness. they might of opened the chute and measured the length and noted the make of the canopy. Hayden's chute was repacked twice before he got it back..

Edited by mrshutter45

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(edited)

WolfRiverJoe says in part:

Quote

'My guess would be that the rig was modified some time in the past, prior to Hayden purchasing it. He needed a couple bailout rigs, to grudgingly meet the FARs. So he got a couple. One was a civilian, unmodified Pioneer, the other was the Military NB-8 that had the 'outboard pull' mod. It wasn't that Cossey modded it when he sold it, it was that he sold a modded rig...'

WolfRiverJoe and I are on the same page. It's been a few years, but I got a pretty long interview with Hayden via two separate phone calls. (His business is not far from my little home office.) I can tell you a few things about that. 

First, Hayden never had any chutes modded. He said he 'knew' what color and sizes the canopies were, but he had never looked inside either container, not once, since he bought them. 

Said:  "I bought both of them at the same time..."

Said:  "I think it was 1968, but could have been a little earlier..."

Said: (non-quote) He bought them off-the-shelf used, had Cossey repack them initially, and then a few months prior to the hijacking.

(I didn't know about time limits on repacking back then, i.e. that this must be done on a regular basis, so I didn't ask him how many times total they were repacked. BUT...I got the idea that Hayden had no plans to actually JUMP with one of them...even IF he had gotten into trouble in the air. He was really against that idea, and much more trusted getting a plane on the ground without actually abandoning it in the air. Just saying.)

I'm talking to him on the phone with the Detlor report sitting on the desk in front of me. Hayden doesn't know I'm looking at the report. Not at first. His answers to questions matched the report exactly. The only difference is Hayden said he did not simply 'give' the chutes to NWA. He said they were a rental to them, and they DID send him a check later, but this check didn't come close to covering what the chutes were actually worth. Years later, he got tired of just calling the FBI and asking for his Pioneer back. So...he finally pays a lawyer (I think he said $250) to send a letter to the FBI asking the chute be returned. It WAS returned. He donated it to the WA State History Museum. End of story. 

My opinion is that the Detlor report is accurate, and Hayden is telling the truth. Hayden also added that as far as he knew, none of the Cooper chutes actually BELONGED to Cossey, although he did pack three of them. I think the solution is as simple as it appears. Two chutes sent by Linn Emerick via the WA State Patrol to the airport, from Sky Sports. Two chutes sent by cab by Norman Hayden. Cooper gets them all. Cuts one open, uses another, leaves one behind for the museum later, dummy reserve tossed out the back. Look below one more time and compare FBI agent John Detlor's report, concise, organized, etc to that mish-mash mess submitted by the Reno FBI office....

Same folks who lost the most important piece of evidence in the case...the cigarette butts. Want to do a vote? I'm going with Hayden's testimony and the Detlor report. 

HaydenCosseyFBIExcerpt3.jpg

EDIT:  When I read off the report to Hayden at the end of the interview, he was pretty jazzed to be vindicated in his story. He asked if he could have a copy of the report shown above, to frame in his office. So I boosted the image to 300 DPI (The document shown above is actually a RE-TYPE of the original that I did myself to make it easier to present)  I sent him the finished doc by email, which was now suitable for printing. Prior to that, the doc was readable, but a bit raggedy-looking. But you could read every word.) 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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If you read the 302's. the lab states that all the testing on the butts and other pieces of evidence were complete and sent back to Vegas for storage or to discard. it's possible they threw them away..lots of time went by before Carr went looking for them. agents came and went over the years. 

nobody is really sure Cooper threw any chutes out. he didn't need the other back pack so why didn't he toss that? 

the bomb, if fake could of been emptied and tossed. the case would of eroded away years ago. very thin metal frame. 

The handle inside the stairs was for emergency use only. the ground crew opened the stairs from the compartment under the plane when they landed. the box with the handle can be seen in the photo below. the Flight data recorder box is in red. the voice recorder is missing that would of been below the FDR..

The placard reads:

EMERGENCY EXIT HANDLE
      AFT AIRSTAIR
        TO OPERATE
 
OPEN ACCESS DOOR, PULL ON RED
HANDLE.  LOCK WIRE WILL BREAK
WHEN HANDLE IS PULLED

FDR stair release.png

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(edited)

Too bad about the butts, yes. But I don't think I will completely buy into the other things.

Quote

 

'nobody is really sure Cooper threw any chutes out. he didn't need the other back pack so why didn't he toss that? 

the bomb, if fake could of been emptied and tossed. the case would of eroded away years ago. very thin metal frame.'

 

 

Of course he threw out the dummy reserve. It couldn't be attached to anything and was not found on board. You don't have all the details on the bomb and case, so that is speculation. Why don't we turn the guys with the metal detectors and pointers loose and see if they come up with anything. The placard find location is just a good a place to start as any. Sure, chances are pretty low we will actually find anything, but that's not the total point of the campout. 

Everyone knows it's NOT just a search. We're talking about camaraderie with Cooper fans, some of them very young or new, video for YouTube, a podcast, a big BBQ. If it were just about a search, I would be lucky to get five people. We're up to fifteen as of today, with six weeks left to the cutoff date for apps to attend. B| Today, I did something I haven't done since AB of Seattle went live on the internet in August 2006:  I modified the top of our homepage to advertise this event, and linked to the introductory video. This shows how serious we are about this event. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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I don't have a problem with searching anything. what I'm telling you is the card will land completely away from any other heavy objects thrown out the back. just seconds between tossing anything is a large distance between the two. then not knowing if the location is the same from 1971. factors like these probably stopped the FBI from searching the area. if Cooper tore the placard off in anger he would of tossed it on the stairs, especially if he was right handed. If the card actually drifted for miles the container wouldn't. it's hard to even figure out when and if he tossed the container out. it just wouldn't land near the placard. 

the container has two clips on it that attached to the D rings that were missing. ....think about that for a while. 

If he asked for the chutes and never intended on using them. they should still be there, just like the other chute he discarded. he tore one up and didn't toss that either. what would be the purpose of tossing one out of 3 remaining chutes? if he was as smart as McCoy. he would of tossed them all. leaving nothing behind. 

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