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DB Cooper

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(edited)

One thing to note..  the FBI notes for the description of the two Hayden back chutes is accurate but labelled wrong. They clearly wrote it down off the packing card but the card info labels are below the line, they assumed above.

In evidence custody.. Both of Hayden chutes as noted by FBI.

1. Pioneer 26 ft white ripstop conical, type 226, SN 9/57 (1957) packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (Hayden got this one back)

2. Pioneer 24 ft white ripstop conical, type 260-9707, SN 7/60 (1960) packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This back chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard)

 

Corrected.. the info labels used should be below the line.

In evidence custody.. Both of Hayden chutes.

1. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 26 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO: 226, DATE OF MFR 9/57 (1957) --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (Hayden got this one back)

2. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 24 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO:  260-9707, DATE OF MFR: 7/60 (1960)  --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This back chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard in Reno)

 

#1 (1957) Went back to Hayden (tan one)

#2 (1960) Was left on the plane and in evidence 11/26/71

There is no way Cooper took one of the two of Hayden's back chutes.

 

Back chute returned to Hayden (1957)..

dbc-parachutes-hayden-card-pararchute-identification-4.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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Boomshki,,,

Cooper's tie was "Dacron Polyester".. many of the found tie particles match those used in the manufacturing process for Dacron.. in other words, many of those rare particles were already on the tie when new. The rare tie particle chase is a bit of a red herring.

 

Tom Kaye needs to test another Pennys 1965 era "Dacron Polyester" clipon tie.. to determine which particles may have come from the manufacturing process.

 

FBI file 26 p 8570

Black Snap-On Tie and Tie Tack

An examination of the tie by the writers revealed noticeable amounts of dust in the inner knot area. In addition to the markings "3 Penneys”, two other labels were found as follows: "Snapper Pat. 2972750. It's a snap to snap on"; and "100% Dacron Polyester Washable RN 16484". From writers' experience in Theft From Interstate Shipment cases Penneys merchandise, it is known that the RN number is a manufacturer's code. Penneys headquarters will be able to determine where the was manufactured, when imported and which stores this tie. 

----

 

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/55/b8/56/ea754678a56895/US2984576.pdf

Zirconia and hafnia sols or finely divided powders can be used as binding agents in a wide variety of applications. These can range from refractories in which the zirconia or hafnia serve to bind components together to plastic material in which they serve a similar function. Likewise, they can be used to bind organic acids or other organic compounds such as dyes

 

It is especialy effective with synthetic polyacrylonitrile fibers such as
"Orlon,” 'Dacron’ polyester, and nylon polyamide types. 

 

"Generally zirconia or hafnia particles will be used with refractory metal oxides and sulfides, refractory interstitial type compounds of carbon and nitrogen intermetallics of rare earths and refractory metals.

Refractory compositions including refractory metal oxides can be made with such oxides as aluminum oxide, barium oxide, beryllium oxide, calcium oxide, cerium oxide, chromic oxide, cobaltus oxide, gallium oxide, lanthanum oxide, magnesium oxide, maganese oxide MnO, maganous oxide, neodymium oxide, nickel oxide, silica niobium oxide, strontium oxide, tantalum oxide, thorium oxide, titanium dioxide and titanium suboxides such as TiO, stannic oxide, tungstic oxide, uranium dioxide, vanadium oxides, VO, VO2, VO2VO3, yttrium oxide, zinc oxide, and cadmium oxide. Of the above, zirconia and hafnia will ordinarily be used most desirably with alumina. silica, ceria, titania, magnesia, thoria and calcia."

 

 

 

 

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On 4/20/2019 at 1:04 AM, dudeman17 said:

Dropzone.com is a skydiving website. I'm a skydiver. I'm going to tell a story about skydivers. This happened some years ago.

For background, skydivers, like many adventure sports enthusiasts, like to video stuff. These days, those lightweight tiny Go-Pros are everywhere. But before they came about, back when those handheld camcorders were the thing, if a skydiver wanted to video stuff they had to set up a helmet with a camcorder mounted on the top. There's also a piece of skydiving gear that is known as a Dytter. It's a little thing about the size of a matchbook that you'd also mount on your helmet, and what it does is, you set it for a certain altitude and on the way down it beeps in your ear. You wouldn't want to rely on it for your life, but it's a handy little back-up reminder. Any skydiver would instantly recognize one, pretty much nobody else would.

Anyways, where I was living, there was a ski hill not far away. Small place, not too popular, but it had some good steep runs and I could be there in an hour. So one day, like many, I went there by myself to get some runs in. After one particular run, I pull up to the chairlift line and there were these four guys ahead of me, and one of them had a helmet cam on. Didn't recognize any of them, but I says, 'Gee, that's cool, got a camera there to film your friends skiing...' They kinda half-heartedly turned around, 'Yeah, sure..' turned back amongst themselves. 'But', I continue, 'just where on the hill does that Dytter go off?' They all quickly turned around, looked at me with much more interest. 'What? You know what a Dytter is? You jump?'...

Turns out they were jumpers from a different dropzone I hadn't been to, but we ended up skiing together for the day. I visited them at their dz, we all became friends. A couple years later, one of them went in. I was on his ash dive, and I cried...

 

Camaraderie over a shared interest. It's fuckin' cool. You guys should try it.

 

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Goin' jumpin' tomorrow...

Cool story Dudeman, but very sad to hear that one of your ski slope skydive buddies went in.

Camcorders and Dytters? When I started it was heavy WW2 surplus gun movie cameras that shot 16 mm film, not tape. Most of the gun cams required 24 volts DC to run, necessitating really heavy battery packs. There were a few 12 volt ones but they were very scarce and pricey. Developing 16 mm film was expensive, Every frame had to count. You didn't just leave it on and edit later. 

Steve Snyder made the first commercially successful audible altitude alert called the PARALERT. It had inadequate volume, I rarely heard mine amidst the freight train roar of freefall. 

Good to see fellow skydivers posting. We seem to bitch a little less than regular folks.

377

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These suggest Cooper was right handed.. he did drink and smoke while seated so he likely switched hands at times.  Maybe that is why Tina lit his smokes for him... one free hand usually the left one.

 

"when he was moving toward the aft lavatory.  He was carrying the attache case on its side in his left hand with his right hand in the case."

"right hand inside the briefcase at all times"

 

 

cooperlavrighthandbomb.jpeg.5c1ec81aec974ca7abf1fe3d6e77055a.jpeg

cooprighthandbrief.jpeg.3fac857f31a872af5d9edc97d0ae3aea.jpeg

 

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Again, the case resting in the seat to the right of DBC necessitates him using his right hand.

DBC walking to the lavatory holding the case in his left hand may be suggestive of favoring his right hand, but this is entirely predicated upon the entire motion of him sliding out of his seat, standing and moving toward the back. In other words, if the right hand was in the case at the beginning of this procedure, it is likely to stay in the case thereby not indicating anything other than that which was practical.

The case in a completely neutral position sitting upon his lap invites his natural tendencies to display themselves. The fact that the left hand was observed by Bill Mitchell as discussed in his contemporaneous 302 is notable.

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6 minutes ago, EJU said:

Again, the case resting in the seat to the right of DBC necessitates him using his right hand.

DBC walking to the lavatory holding the case in his left hand may be suggestive of favoring his right hand, but this is entirely predicated upon the entire motion of him sliding out of his seat, standing and moving toward the back. In other words, if the right hand was in the case at the beginning of this procedure, it is likely to stay in the case thereby not indicating anything other than that which was practical.

The case in a completely neutral position sitting upon his lap invites his natural tendencies to display themselves. The fact that the left hand was observed by Bill Mitchell as discussed in his contemporaneous 302 is notable.

Cooper was drinking, he put the case on his lap to switch to his left and drink with his right hand. MITCHELL,, "THE SUBJECT WAS NOT NOTICED UNTIL HE SPILLED A DRINK"

If Cooper was left handed he would have placed the case on his left side. Using the fact that case was placed on the right side to negate a right handedness is poor logic. He likely placed it on his right and chose his seat to facilitate his use of his more dexterous right hand. 

 

Cooper was more than likely right handed.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper was drinking, he put the case on his lap to switch to his left and drink with his right hand. MITCHELL,, "THE SUBJECT WAS NOT NOTICED UNTIL HE SPILLED A DRINK"

If Cooper was left handed he would have placed the case on his left side. Using the fact that case was placed on the right side to negate a right handedness is poor logic. He likely placed it on his right and chose his seat to facilitate his use of his more dexterous right hand. 

 

Cooper was more than likely right handed.

 

 

I absolutely disagree. Cooper would not have the case sitting in the chair on the aisle for two primary reasons.

First, Flo and Tina used the seat.

Second, the case is susceptible to being neutralized by someone in the aisle.

The smart option for Cooper was the window seat to his right. 

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8 minutes ago, EJU said:

I absolutely disagree. Cooper would not have the case sitting in the chair on the aisle for two primary reasons.

First, Flo and Tina used the seat.

Second, the case is susceptible to being neutralized by someone in the aisle.

The smart option for Cooper was the window seat to his right. 

nonsense, he could have picked a different seat like on the other side of the isle.

He chose that seat to have the case on his right side, he could have chosen a seat to have his left hand in the case.

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I keep seeing references to a 28 ft Conical.  E.g.: "Sounds like to me that Cooper jumped with the 'military back pack parachute' the 28 foot conical, belonging to Hayden."

There was no 28 ft Conical, only a 26 ft Conical. The 28 ft canopy was a C9 mil surplus round.  

377

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Ha, I remember Paralerts. I've never worn an audible, could never fathom the idea that you should need one. (Though I have always thought that they should design one with a snooze button.) The best altimeter on the planet is... the planet. That's the one that will never break down and lie to you. I jumped for years without any altimeter, put one back on when I got instructor ratings. I use an altimaster analog, they're easy to see, never need batteries, and they're easy to adjust - when I'm doing AFF I always sync mine with the student's at their pull altitude on the way up.

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"The best altimeter on the planet is... the planet."  LOVE IT!!!

I made my first 38 post training solo jumps with no altimeter. I was a struggling college student who would rather spend the money on jumps. I got good at spotting and good and visually estimating altitude over well-known terrain.

I was once riding as a passenger on a corporate King Air in Brazil. The pilot came back into the cabin and asked how the passengers were enjoying the flight. He asked if we would care to guess how high the plane was flying. I told him I'd bet him I could nail it within 500 feet. He took the bet. I had a really great steak dinner on him in Sao Paolo. It got even better because he invited a friend who had flown A4 Skyhawks for Argentina in the Falklands War. The stories he told of attacking British ships at mast top height were riveting, enhanced by serial Caipirinhas.

Still jump an old SSE Altimaster 2. I have all the fancy L&B stuff too, but  I am an engineer and I'll take simple aneroid mech baro as my primary reference any day. No batteries needed. No electronic components to age or fail. 

Do you think Cooper had prior parachuting experience? Just wondering. 

377

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Quote

 

Do you think Cooper had prior parachuting experience? Just wondering. 

377

 

Yes, but only because Mucklow noted that Cooper seemed to know what he was doing when checking the parachutes and deciding which one to start putting on. I'm not going to name a suspect here, but I would also guess that Cooper had not jumped in a while. He almost certainly was the kind of guy who had barely two nickels to rub together, due to the type of clothes he wore. It was a low-budget operation all the way. B|

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8 hours ago, 377 said:

I keep seeing references to a 28 ft Conical.  E.g.: "Sounds like to me that Cooper jumped with the 'military back pack parachute' the 28 foot conical, belonging to Hayden."

There was no 28 ft Conical, only a 26 ft Conical. The 28 ft canopy was a C9 mil surplus round.  

377

possibly....a parachute was found on the banks of the river in 2001. the description was given of the chutes Cooper had to compare with the chute found. 

2001.png

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9 hours ago, 377 said:

I keep seeing references to a 28 ft Conical.  E.g.: "Sounds like to me that Cooper jumped with the 'military back pack parachute' the 28 foot conical, belonging to Hayden."

There was no 28 ft Conical, only a 26 ft Conical. The 28 ft canopy was a C9 mil surplus round.  

377

Yeah, I meant a military round chute. That's my no-chute-experience thing coming out again. 

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6 hours ago, 377 said:

Do you think Cooper had prior parachuting experience? Just wondering. 

377

The surface answer is, I don't know, but I would think so. I've always been fascinated by the case, but I've never done any intensive study of the details. I've seen whatever documentaries I've come across, read a number of articles, and follow this thread out of curiosity. Most of the Cooper researchers seem to think he did, and I couldn't imagine someone trying to pull this caper off without having at least some experience. The deeper answer - I suspect he may have been a very experienced, current jumper. But I'll have to PM you as to why I think that.

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(edited)

Big early cleaning job this morning, (folks moving into new home this week) so I thought I would update on the Castle Rock (WA) search. We're starting to get a lot more interest this week, ever since the video and the Quora post. (Cooper Space at Quora posts are emailed to over 700 followers, most of whom read the articles in their email.)

We now have a dozen folks committed to this project, with more joining each day. I've recruited a few people from Infamous Nissan, some of whom plan to buy a detector and maybe even a pointer. I told them if they can't do that, at least bring gloves, a garden trowel, and a spaghetti drainer. 

Doug Kenck-Crispin at Oregon Kick Ass History liked the video. I haven't formally invited him yet, but I will do so this weekend and send him a comprehensive overview of the project. 

I noticed the nasty posts about me personally are starting to drop off at Mountain News. They are discussing the location of the placard there a bit more than the personal stuff I usually see, and that's good. I tried inviting Bruce S and wasted my time. No worries. Many others are ready to take his place. The negativity angle for Cooperland in 2019 is absolutely dead these days. People are TIRED of it. No names. You know who you are. 

The positive vibes at Dropzone are encouraging. Negativity goes nowhere. What the public wants after 45+ years are voices, events, positive stuff...not extraneous junk. Trust me on this one. This year could be a breakthrough year but people need to work together in a positive manner. The public isn't interested otherwise. They're a fickle sort with a short-to-medium attention span. 

Remember:  We will meet in Castle Rock on Friday morning June 21. Anyone not on the list to go will not be allowed to go. Since we're taking responsibility with Weyerhauser through their Land Use Manager, that's the way it is. Anyone is welcome to participate, but you must contact me first and sign up. I wish I could just make it a free for all, but that's not how it works. Anyone who doesn't understand the sensibility of this plan shouldn't even apply to go. Fifty days until the cutoff date, and I think I will have to start turning people away weeks prior to that date. So if you are serious, you should not wait long to make your move. Slots are filling fast, and even though the land owners gave me a bit of leeway on the number of people, I might cut apps off at any time. I may HAVE to. I can only feed so many people at the BBQ. B|

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Question...

How rare would it be to hand write "F.B.I" with periods in between and not at the end in 1971?

Is that common, normal or standard? Is it a regional convention?

I would write it either "FBI" or "F.B.I." with a period after the I, but I am Canadian and have had less exposure to how "FBI" is/was hand written.

 

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On 4/22/2019 at 11:33 AM, FLYJACK said:

 

 

DB-Cooper-Loot-Map.jpg.0b4a7d2860f41a8da5c1d18c5f7b0095.jpg

 

On this map are the red dots supposed to represent before Cooper jumped and the blue dots after he jumped?  If so they seem to be off by one minute since I think he jumped at 20:13 but the 20:12 dot is already shown as blue.  Anyways I don't quite understand why a jump in this terrain is so often described as unsurvivable.  The closest communities to the location of the aircraft at 20:13 seem to be Heisson and Battle Ground.  The elevation of Heisson is 440ft and the elevation of Battle Ground is 295ft.  Doesn't sound that mountainous to me.  A jump in this area should have been survivable.  It doesn't make sense to me that this terrain is often described as so mountainous that Cooper could not have survived.

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Question...

How rare would it be to hand write "F.B.I" with periods in between and not at the end in 1971?

Is that common, normal or standard? Is it a regional convention?

I would write it either "FBI" or "F.B.I." with a period after the I, but I am Canadian and have had less exposure to how "FBI" is/was hand written.

 

I don't know, but my question about that would be, are there a number of instances where you've seen that, or just once? If just once, it could be an oversight, faulty pen...? If it's a number of places, it could be an identifier.

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7 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

I don't know, but my question about that would be, are there a number of instances where you've seen that, or just once? If just once, it could be an oversight, faulty pen...? If it's a number of places, it could be an identifier.

yes, of course I have two samples, you are too far ahead.

I wanted to figure out if it is unique first. I am not sure.. I would never write "F.B.I" like that.

 

If it is unique then I may have a strong link, but there are other things that suggest a link too.

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1 hour ago, SivaGanesha said:

 

On this map are the red dots supposed to represent before Cooper jumped and the blue dots after he jumped?  If so they seem to be off by one minute since I think he jumped at 20:13 but the 20:12 dot is already shown as blue.  Anyways I don't quite understand why a jump in this terrain is so often described as unsurvivable.  The closest communities to the location of the aircraft at 20:13 seem to be Heisson and Battle Ground.  The elevation of Heisson is 440ft and the elevation of Battle Ground is 295ft.  Doesn't sound that mountainous to me.  A jump in this area should have been survivable.  It doesn't make sense to me that this terrain is often described as so mountainous that Cooper could not have survived.

The crew felt oscillations at 20:12, but that it the timestamp at the end of the transmission process. So, the vent was earlier..  There was a "little bob" found on the FDR at 20:09. The numbers are rounded..

If the oscillations were Cooper jumping then he likely left between 20:09 and 20:11. But even that isn't certain.

The terrain looks very survivable.

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