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DB Cooper

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The infamous Tina Bar money. More facts that get in the way of previous 'facts'. Geez Louise. Where's the Excedrin. 

You are right. It is screwy trying to figure all this stuff out. No wonder Cooper was never caught. 

Not trying to say KC was Cooper, but consider what Himmelsbach told Geoff Gray in an interview. Gray asked him if the FBI ever checked out employees of the airline for possible suspects. (There is a story out there that the DC office wanted this done, at least to a degree.) Himmelsbach said they never did, and not only that, it would never occur to him to go in such a direction. He explains:

"We had an awful lot of suggestions by people who said, "I think it's an inside job."

Gray presses him a bit. 

"It is inconceivable for several reasons. The main one is character. If you were acquainted as I was with many of the people in the airline industry, they are exceptional people. They are head and shoulders above the standards and values and the character of normal, average, Americans."


Gray's response was basically that he thought there were criminals in the airline business, just like any other business. 

My response is who the hell knows what is true and what is not sometimes in the Cooper investigation. 
 

TinaorTena.jpg

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3 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

The infamous Tina Bar money. More facts that get in the way of previous 'facts'. Geez Louise. Where's the Excedrin. 

You are right. It is screwy trying to figure all this stuff out. No wonder Cooper was never caught. 

Not trying to say KC was Cooper, but consider what Himmelsbach told Geoff Gray in an interview. Gray asked him if the FBI ever checked out employees of the airline for possible suspects. (There is a story out there that the DC office wanted this done, at least to a degree.) Himmelsbach said they never did, and not only that, it would never occur to him to go in such a direction. He explains:

"We had an awful lot of suggestions by people who said, "I think it's an inside job."

Gray presses him a bit. 

"It is inconceivable for several reasons. The main one is character. If you were acquainted as I was with many of the people in the airline industry, they are exceptional people. They are head and shoulders above the standards and values and the character of normal, average, Americans."


Gray's response was basically that he thought there were criminals in the airline business, just like any other business. 

My response is who the hell knows what is true and what is not sometimes in the Cooper investigation. 
 

TinaorTena.jpg

Me be is knowing the truths 

E63B7F0E-18F2-425F-99A7-13EA8E0240A2.jpeg

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Ralph Himmelsbach “There were 10,000 twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of 100 bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands.”

"straps" are currency straps or bank bands in counts of 100 bills (packets) for denominations over $1

 

at 6:35 of video…

 

 

Tina Mucklow saw  "bank-type bands around each package"

tinamoneybundles.jpeg.e72c254a6c5210361ed1e06cc1507ca1.jpeg

 

coopermoneybankbands2.jpeg.22b3a837fec8ddd5b4bd5f3a896d25da.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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"My response is who the hell knows what is true and what is not sometimes in the Cooper investigation."

If you took the time to read the 302's you would find that they did check on NWO employee's. I found several pages speaking about background checks. it's common practice. 

NW Background.JPG

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19 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The bills were Micro'd on a Recordak machine well before Norjak. The Bank had an emergency stash of circulated bills, total $250,000 with $20,000 in $10's and $230,000 in $20's. The entire stash was recorded in order. The FBI had nothing to do with recording the serial numbers. The Bank was responsible for maintaining the integrity of the Micro matching the money. 

They grabbed $200,000 for Cooper and left the rest but this is where it gets screwy, typical NORJAK. The bank took the remaining $30,000 of $20 bills which was 15 packets of 100. They wrote down only the top and bottom bill serial number for each packet and sent the 15 pairs of numbers to the FBI as well as the Micro list of all the bills. The FBI was instructed to use the paired numbers as start and stop points, remove them from the list and all bills in between which they didn't actually have numbers for. They ignored the 10's. 

The 15 packets of $20's that didn't go to Cooper but were on the list were immediately incorporated into a new Bank ransom stash which was also run through a Recordak...  everybody following so far..  The FBI was having trouble deducting the bills and creating the list so they asked the Bank for a list of all the remaining bill serial numbers from those 15 packets. The Bank supplied the FBI with the Recordak Micro for the new ransom stash noting the ranges for the 15 packets. Now the FBI had to deduct each bill found from the original list. However, the range for the list was slightly different, the packets didn't quite match, that may be where the 9998 bills comes from, two bills short. There is an error.

There were two Bank ransom stashes, two  sets  of Recordak Micro's and entire thing was under the control of the Bank. If the Bank didn't maintain the integrity of the ransom stash then the FBI bill list would be wrong.

 

Consider the ramifications if money was used/replaced from the ransom stash and the Micro wasn't updated. It is very unlikely but theoretically possible that the TBAR money didn't go to Cooper but was used in another ransom payout if the Bank didn't maintain the Recordak Micro. I did find an earlier Portland ransom payout that was never recovered. A little OT but interesting, a guy phoned in a bomb on a plane that would go off if it descended to a specific altitude. He would let them know how to disarm if paid, he effectively hijacked a plane without being on it. He was caught in Portland but the ransom money was never recovered.

 

 

 

 

secondransomfunda.jpg

If that money was not DB Cooper's, then it throws off a lot of other theories.  So none of the money ever went into circulation?  Were you able to determine where the dredge started?

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1 hour ago, JJG78 said:

...So none of the money ever went into circulation?  

Nobody knows. 

This question was addressed to a certain degree when Agent Carr was posting.

Banks in the Pacific Northwest had the numbers. 

But actually checking the numbers against bills in circulation wasn't practical. The idea was that if there was a big deposit of $20s, they would check.  But as far as individuals or stores or that sort of thing, those weren't checked.

And the numbers of bills being destroyed by the US Treasury weren't checked. 

So the idea of Cooper or someone passing the bills a few at a time, or bigger amounts in places other than the PNW is not only possible, but plausible.
The bills could have gone into circulation, mixed in with the currency already there, been worn out and subsequently destroyed in the Treasury incinerators. 

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If you listen to Larry Carr's interview (it's linked at the Wikipedia page on Cooper) he admits that although all the NW banks got the bill list, that most of them gave up the teller search within three months after the list was issued, and virtually ALL banks had given it up within six months. So...after three to six months the bills would be reasonably safe to spend as long as you weren't plunking them down a hundred at a time. 

Shutter 45 says in part:
 

Quote

"If you took the time to read the 302's you would find that they did check on NWO employee's. I found several pages speaking about background checks. it's common practice. .."

Well, if they did, they sure didn't check Kenny Christiansen's background or he would definitely have been interviewed. "Former US Army paratrooper.." etc. 

What they were probably looking for were airline employees with a bad history with the company, (fired for cause) or running their names against the FBI's criminal records database, not doing actual security-clearance type, door to door with the neighbors type checks. And even if they did all these background checks, I never heard of a single NWA employee either on the suspect list, or interviewed in such a way where the press heard about it, before or since. And then you have Himmelsbach saying that although an inside job was often suggested, that he never considered even checking into that possibility, mainly because he had pre-conceived notions going about airline employees. 

Maybe it's part of the reason Cooper was never caught. 

As far as the 302's, our investigation into Cooper, at least the active part of it, is basically closed. I don't mind discussing the case sometimes, though. This is why I don't spend much time talking about KC anymore. The evidence on him as a *possible* suspect is a wrap. Others are handling that end of it now, not me. I'm just the consultant these people come to from time to time. But as far as hitting the bricks any further specifically on Christiansen, that's pretty much a wrap as well. Unless there is some slam-dunk in those files concerning KC, they don't interest me a whole lot because I don't believe the answers are in them to what everyone seeks. But they are better than nothing. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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There has been ONE development in the case since this thread closed way back when, and I thought I should explain that. I get questions sometimes on it. 

For years, there was this persistent rumor that some kid in Bonney Lake found a great deal of money out back of Kenny Christiansen's house not long after Kenny's death in 1994. Both Skipp Porteous and I spent a great deal of effort trying to confirm this report one way or another. We had no success. Skipp even ran an ad in the local paper for a month trying to get someone to come forward for verification. No luck. Not a single contact, no phone calls. 

By 2017 I had pretty much relegated the story to an urban myth and forgot about it. 

Then...a guy named Kyle DeDominces finally came forward. Kyle is a shoe salesman for Nordstroms. He drives a red Jeep, and it was obvious he wasn't out for fame and money. He just didn't realize that KC was possibly a suspect in the Cooper hijacking, and that I should hear what he (Kyle) had to say. He was on Facebook and stumbled onto the DB Cooper page we have going there. From that point, he found the Cooper WordPress column and other references to the hijacking, and along the way he read something about our effort to discover the truth on this money story. Kyle realized we were talking about HIM, and contacted me. 

A lifelong resident of Bonney Lake, Kyle told me HE was the guy I was looking for and asked to see me. We met at a place in Lake Tapps, WA called 'The Rock,' which is a combination pizza joint and bar. We spoke for about an hour and he told me his story. He even had a picture of the money he and his friends found, he said. The Rock is a fairly noisy place, so we met a couple of times later someplace more quiet. He sent me a picture by email and although it wasn't the BEST picture, it was readable enough to see that this money was NOT ransom money from the hijacking. 

I posted a video below that was shot last August out back of Kenny's old house. It isn't a very GOOD video, and the main reason is because the area near the house has grown quite a bit in the last twenty years and the traffic noise is just awful. But, we tried anyway. Here is his basic story, which also ended up with the Bonney Lake Police Department. (More on the police angle later)

Kyle said that he and his friends were playing on the lot behind Kenny's house, and running around in the woods when one of them tripped over a small board sticking up out of the ground. This caused a bag (Kyle says it was a clear, very thick plastic bag) to come popping into view. When the boys examined this bag and dug out the rest of the hole, they found a large number of old bills in the bag. He described the setup as six thin boards, one buried flat in the ground, four others serving as 'walls' in the hole, and a final one on top as a cover. 

The money was turned over to the Bonney Lake PD soon afterward as a Lost and Found. Later, the boys received a check in payment, which they split evenly. 

Bonney Lake PD:  AB of Seattle, along with Kyle, filed an information request asking the police to check into any reports of this money being found and turned in. The Bonney Lake PD said they did not keep records on such things going back that far, but one officer admitted that he had heard of the incident. That officer is now a senior official with the department. That's all he could give us. He remembered it 'vaguely' and that's all he could offer. In the video, Kyle gives details and I believe we do a walk around the property. The actual spot where the money was found used to be woods, but is now developed. It was definitely property Kenny owned while he was alive, though. We know THAT. And the bills are from the 1980s, they are not part of the ransom. However, since they WERE found on property that was owned by Kenny while he was still alive, it's a good assumption the money belonged to him. We also realized that Kenny had done a similar setup in his attic, when he built that box using pieces of countertop material. Same deal. Bottom support, (sheetrock of ceiling) two side boards, (the ceiling joists) two other side boards, (2x6 sections cut and nailed to the joists) and a cover, (piece of countertop). To us, it was a pattern with Kenny, a modus operandi he had used before. Picture of the money is below, scanned from an old photograph. All I can say is that I found Kyle to be honest and straightforward, and a good witness. What it all means I cannot say. It is what it is.  

Link to the actual video at YouTube is HERE. In one of the comments to the video, Kyle's mom makes a supporting statement. We had some trouble doing the video though. Traffic noise was terrible, and both of us were literally melting from the heat that day. And half-dead of thirst. :)

 

 

KCmoneyoutback.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Norman, I'm not sure what the deal is here, but it looks like both you and Derek are obviously the same person. Not sure why you feel the need to do this. Hopefully it wasn't because Derek was suspended or something. I will assume you had a different reason, but if not...some websites do not take kindly to that. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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5 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Norman, I'm not sure what the deal is here, but it looks like both you and Derek are obviously the same person. Not sure why you feel the need to do this. Hopefully it wasn't because Derek was suspended or something. I will assume you had a different reason, but if not...some websites do not take kindly to that. 

He was warned, I think he got banned.

So he came back as someone else. But kept doing the same crap. 

 

The moderators on here aren't stupid.
And they don't like it when people disregard the rules.
It's not the first time this sort of thing has happened, and if he keeps it up there are more drastic steps they can take. 
However, in the end, he can keep registering and making a post or two before he gets re-banned and the posts disappear.

Given that all he was doing was spamming the forum with his pics and baseless claims...

No great loss.

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"Later, the boys received a check in payment, which they split evenly..."

My mistake. According to Kyle, they received payment in cash. I watched the video again. 

On this other thing regarding Derek and his counterpart, the only thing I can say is I was getting tired of having the same pictures rammed down my throat all the time without any decent discussion or follow up. 

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6 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

He was warned, I think he got banned.

So he came back as someone else. But kept doing the same crap. 

 

The moderators on here aren't stupid.
And they don't like it when people disregard the rules.
It's not the first time this sort of thing has happened, and if he keeps it up there are more drastic steps they can take. 
However, in the end, he can keep registering and making a post or two before he gets re-banned and the posts disappear.

Given that all he was doing was spamming the forum with his pics and baseless claims...

No great loss.

He's using either a proxy server or a VPN that will hide his actual IP address making it hard to stop him unless you have approval only membership. he tried it several times on my forum..

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A few thoughts...

First, regarding the idea of deploying the parachute while still standing on the stairs, I have to second everything wolfriverjoe said about that. Plus, deploying off the stairs into the fast turbulent air behind the aircraft would actually increase the chances of a malfunction, as well as the possibility of the parachute entangling with part of the aircraft. Would not be practical at all. And if Cooper was an experienced jumper, knew enough to find a pack and data card, he should be able to give the rig a gear check enough to reasonably ensure that he wouldn't have a total pack closure malfunction. As for the gutsiness of making a one-parachute jump without a reserve, again, as joe said, malfunctions are actually pretty rare, plus the fact that it was a bailout rig and not a sport main means that that parachute basically WAS a reserve. And Cooper probably knew that by the lack of D-rings for a front-mount reserve, and the fact that it had a pack and data card at all - sport mains do not have them. Also, base jumping is pretty much always a one-parachute jump, and not with rigger-packed reserves.

I was intrigued by the mention of that book 'Hahaha', supposedly written by Cooper, and its account that Cooper did not jump over the Washington woods, but closer to Reno. Here's why: For background, as older jumpers will know, an integral era of sport skydiving history occurred in the 60's and 70's at a few drop zones in California; Taft and Arvin near the Bakersfield area of central CA, and Elsinore in SoCal. Bunch of barnstorming, daredevil, black death artists pioneered skydiving from a solo sport to a group activity known as relative work. Many of these people were Vietnam veterans from the 60's and other military. Anyway, some years ago, probably late 90's, I was jumping regularly at a drop zone in Taft. For a while, this guy would show up and hang out with us who was an older jumper and part of that era. He had written a book, his attempt at the not so great American novel. The book was basically a love story, and the main characters and plot line were fiction, but it was set in the real world of that skydiving era, and included many real-life people and events. Well, in the second half of the book as a secondary plot line, one of his characters pulled off the hijacking. Never mentioned the Cooper name or that it was national news, but the places and sequence of events were exactly the Cooper case. Except that he, too, had the hijacker jump on the approach to Reno. Somebody here mentioned someone witnessing Cooper back down the stairs, but I always thought the story was that the only people on board were the pilots and the one stewardess, but that after takeoff Cooper sent her up with the pilots so that there was nobody in the back with him. In this guy's book, the hijacker went to the back stairs and jumped up and down once, to give the pilots the idea that he left over Washington, but actually stayed on board until the Reno approach. Did this guy know something? Was he just writing pseudo-fiction? (Was he Cooper?) Who knows.

As for suspects...  There are a number of people who think they have the case solved. That Derek clown insists it was Klansnic. Jo was convinced it was her late husband. Blevins likes Kenny C. There was an ad in Parachutist magazine the other month for a book claiming Walt Reca was the definitive Cooper. But the FBI has closed the case as unsolved. Does that mean that they have evidence that disproves all of those, or do they just not have enough to beyond-a-reasonable-doubt any of them? I've heard that there were anywhere from a couple hundred to possibly over a thousand people who were at one time or another considered possible suspects. I'd be curious to see that list. I've also heard that the FBI holds out hope that someone will remember something, present a new suspect or evidence. Some people have done that, come forward saying 'I think it was my uncle/dad's friend/husband...' That leads me to wonder. If you thought someone you knew/cared about might be a notorious criminal, would you come forward? Risk getting someone in trouble? Or would you keep your mouth shut? I suppose if they've passed and are beyond prosecution you might want to know if the truth could be determined. But would you want to sully their name? Perhaps you'd be lionizing them as a folk hero?  Hmmm.....

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5 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

He's using either a proxy server or a VPN that will hide his actual IP address making it hard to stop him unless you have approval only membership. he tried it several times on my forum..

Well, my understanding is that the mods will ban him and subsequent sockpuppets for a while before they go for a full IP addy ban. 
And yes, he can spoof that with a few different tricks. 

There was a fella on here who had a serious bug up his ass about posting on here. Last count I heard had him well over 500 sock puppets created & banned.

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Cooper wasn't seen jumping... It was Hahneman that a crew member witnessed descend the rear stairs backwards and jump off back first. He hijacked a 727 for ransom in May of 1972. I have been researching him for the Cooper hijacking. Mark was speculating that Cooper may have done it the same way.

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Oh...no big deal on the 'did he back down?' or 'did he pull off the stairs?' stuff. 377 and I discussed this privately a few times. He suggested it was possible that Cooper did pull while standing on the end of the stairs, saying maybe the chute would squid out and then inflate...maybe the opening shock wouldn't be too bad. But hearing some of the other comments about all this, I will defer to the experts. I also didn't know base jumpers wore only a single chute, although due to the short ride to the bottom I should have realized that. 

As far as why the FBI finally threw in the towel on Cooper, I think there are only two real possibles. Either someone said 'enough' on providing any further budget on the case, or they found out who Cooper was and decided not to go public on it. (I may have the reason, but I won't go into it right now.) Still...even though they say they closed it...they also have a case agent in Seattle assigned to receive the Cooper messages, and it isn't Ayn Dietrich. Someone, though. I asked who it was, and Dietrich wouldn't tell me his/her identity. Sometimes I've envisioned all the Seattle FBI agents having lunch and they draw straws to see who gets the job of continuing to review the messages and the suggested suspects.

Short straw...LOSES.  9_9 Some humor can be found in the case if you look for it. Poking a bit of fun at Marla:

Marla1.jpg

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Oh yeah. I forgot all about the 'squidding' idea. One of the dynamics of round openings that is being lost to time (at least for sport jumpers) because we don't jump them anymore. 

 

I don't know about the 'short straw' thing. I'd guess that they aren't publicizing the agent who's on the case to keep them from being inundated by all the weirdos. Jo's attacks on Carr are a lesson that likely won't be forgotten soon.

Carr was doing it for fun. 

His specialty was bank robberies. 

He freely admitted that he was interested in the Cooper case as a personal thing, was doing it on his own time as a 'nights & weekends' thing, but also admitted that if he was to solve it, then it would be a hell of a 'feather in his cap'. 

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12 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

..

I was intrigued by the mention of that book 'Hahaha', supposedly written by Cooper, and its account that Cooper did not jump over the Washington woods, but closer to Reno. Here's why: For background, as older jumpers will know, an integral era of sport skydiving history occurred in the 60's and 70's at a few drop zones in California; Taft and Arvin near the Bakersfield area of central CA, and Elsinore in SoCal. Bunch of barnstorming, daredevil, black death artists pioneered skydiving from a solo sport to a group activity known as relative work. Many of these people were Vietnam veterans from the 60's and other military. Anyway, some years ago, probably late 90's, I was jumping regularly at a drop zone in Taft. For a while, this guy would show up and hang out with us who was an older jumper and part of that era. He had written a book, his attempt at the not so great American novel. The book was basically a love story, and the main characters and plot line were fiction, but it was set in the real world of that skydiving era, and included many real-life people and events. Well, in the second half of the book as a secondary plot line, one of his characters pulled off the hijacking. Never mentioned the Cooper name or that it was national news, but the places and sequence of events were exactly the Cooper case. Except that he, too, had the hijacker jump on the approach to Reno....

Do you know the name of that book?

Also in regards to Bob saying Ha Ha Ha is a work of fiction, I think it should still be on the table as possibly written by Cooper unless you can prove otherwise.  Some of the most delicate scientific work requires operating with uncertainty.  He also mentioned in Ha Ha Ha how he planted the money there just to confuse the FBI about the jump location, which makes a lot of sense, true or not. 

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6 hours ago, 4lcy0ne said:

Do you know the name of that book?

 

 

I've wracked my brain and I can't remember the name of the guy or the book. Maybe I can ask a couple of the people I hung out with in those days if they remember, but it's been a while since I've talked to them, and I'm a dinosaur, I don't do facebook or any of that crap, so it might take a bit of digging to find contact for them.

A quick search indicates that 'Ha Ha Ha' was written in '83. Like I said, I read that book in probably the late 90's, but I couldn't say when it was written. Mr. Blevins says he read Ha Ha Ha and thought that it wasn't the author's first work. I'd be curious if they were possibly written by the same guy. I'd also be curious if you or Mr. Blevins figured the seven clues supposedly contained in Ha Ha Ha.

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