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DB Cooper

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(edited)
4 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Also, the fact that (presuming the pic posted of the Packing Data Card is correct) the Pioneer rig was out of date by a couple months. May 21 to Nov 24 is a lot more than 120 days (it was 120 in 1971, right?).

1

I hadn't noticed that but you are right about the stale I&R Joe. The owner of the two rigs was a sport acro pilot. Wouldn't be the first sport pilot or sport jumper who got a bit behind on repacks. Not that I'd have any first-hand experience...

377

 

Edited by 377

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Oh yeah. I understand how it can happen. 

If the recent posts about the owner are correct, he didn't like the idea that he now HAD TO wear a bailout rig while doing acro. 
So the idea that he'd get an I&R done 'every so often' wouldn't surprise me in any way. I've personally never been present at the DZ when the FAA showed up to do a ramp check. At my original DZ (Wolf River Skydivers), they only showed up once in the 10 years I was part of the DZ.

 

I just find it amusing as all hell that the FBI gave Cooper an 'illegal' rig. Part of me wonders if they knew about it and did it on purpose, so that they could 'stack on' a couple more charges. I doubt it, it's far, far more likely that they simply didn't know enough about the gear to realize it. 

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5 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Also, the fact that (presuming the pic posted of the Packing Data Card is correct) the Pioneer rig was out of date by a couple months. May 21 to Nov 24 is a lot more than 120 days (it was 120 in 1971, right?).

At the time, it was 120 days for "chair-type" parachutes, 60 days for all other types including the Pioneer back.  60 days seems like it would be quite inconvenient for sport jumpers, except that sport jumpers were using chest types that (a) didn't take long to inspect and pack, and (b) could be shared by several jumpers as long as they weren't on the same load.

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(edited)

Wolf River Joe says:
 

Quote

"If the recent posts about the owner are correct, he didn't like the idea that he now HAD TO wear a bailout rig while doing acro. So the idea that he'd get an I&R done 'every so often' wouldn't surprise me in any way..."

You're talking about Norman Hayden, the guy who sent his two chutes off to the airport in a taxicab. Yeah...I talked to Norman for a good long while on the phone. You are right. He absolutely hated the idea of having to wear a rig while flying. He told me that even if he got into trouble, he probably wouldn't have used it anyway, preferring to trust the plane he was flying could get him on the ground in one piece. He considered wearing a rig a big nuisance that just got in the way of his flying. Nice guy, but definitely one of those 'why jump from a perfectly good airplane?' types. He didn't know about the chute report written up by FBI agent John Detlor, so I read it to him over the phone. He said it was accurate for his part, and asked me to email him a JPEG copy. He later framed it for his office. 

I think it's okay to speak for 377 (because he has said something about this) when I say we both believe Cooper went down to the bottom of the stairs and just turned around and pulled the ripcord. I certainly AM a whuffo, but even I wouldn't try a freefall jump with just one rig. (Unless I was on a WW2 bomber crew and the damn plane was on fire.) I considered the idea that if Number 1 rig doesn't work, he could have gone back up the stairs and put on the other instead. (?) 

One theory I have is that once the chute inflated and pulled him off the stairs, maybe since he was seen tying the money bag together, and then around his waist, he would have come down looking somewhat like the picture below. Frankly, it's hard for an admitted whuffo to discuss these things with REAL skydivers, though. I look dumb enough already. Why make it worse? 9_9

 

jumppic.jpg

EDIT:  A comment about my last post, the one about the interview with Denise for Minnow Films. I'm not here to tell you that her story is true and that this somehow nails KC as Cooper. I just figure that since this actually happened, I feel obligated to present it the best way I can. One of the reasons she waited so long to go public is because she said she wanted to wait until her uncle was dead. So after he died...I tried approaching her again. I went through her son Jordan at Facebook and he was the intermediary. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins
Changed 'Mark' to '377' because I mixed them up. '377' has the same first name. My bad.

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Sometimes I feel sorry for Agent Ayn Dietrich in Seattle. She gets all the 'Cooper Stuff'. B|

I had this vision of her once shaking her head and asking how the heck she GOT that assignment. 

Quote

"I coulda been out chasing bank robbers...I coulda been a CONTENDER..."

That's a joke, of course. 

But you have to give it to the lady for toughing it out and doing her job. I try not to bug her too much. 

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"I considered the idea that if Number 1 rig doesn't work, he could have gone back up the stairs and put on the other instead. (?) "

 

Hah. Never thought about that. If ANYTHING launched out of the container and into the windstream he would have likely been pulled off the stairs, but if he had a total container malfunction, like a badly bent pin that prevented the container from opening, he probably could have gone back up and swapped rigs. 

377

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I'm starting to receive messages regarding my proposed three-day campout in the same area where they found the placard. Darren S, the podcast guy, has expressed an interest in going. Also some of the guys who hang out at the Infamous Nissan website. (support group for Nissan owners, site is truck-owner heavy) Anyone else with an interest in the Cooper case is welcome to attend, and that means anyone. We leave the Cooperland bickering at home and go have fun instead. We were thinking about sometime in June, but since Darren would have to drive much farther than other folks, I'm taking input from him on what weekend would work best for him. The location of the placard is some miles east of Interstate 5, not a whole long way from Castle Rock, WA. 

Oh...the second metal detector is arriving today from Amazon. Was listed at $200, but I got an unopened return from them for a mere $47 and that included the shipping. I love Amazon sometimes. That tent shown below that I use on Cooper Campouts? LOL at Coleman it's nearly 300 bucks. At Amazon it's about $200. Got it for eighty dollars. Cheap deal on the bathhouse, too. On these trips we provide BBQ, flushable toilet and shower in the bathhouse, power sources, TV/movies at night if you want, etc. 

showertentNEW.jpg

colemanMontana.jpg

PlacardMapShot.jpg

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20 hours ago, mark said:

At the time, it was 120 days for "chair-type" parachutes, 60 days for all other types including the Pioneer back.  60 days seems like it would be quite inconvenient for sport jumpers, except that sport jumpers were using chest types that (a) didn't take long to inspect and pack, and (b) could be shared by several jumpers as long as they weren't on the same load.

At my home DZ back in the 1960s they had rental chest reserves, $1 per jump. Seemed like a good deal to me until I read a couple of the packing cards: 24 ft TWILL (not Ripstop) canopies. No thanks.

Bought a cheap surplus 26 ft Navy Conical (Ripstop fabric) and an Army chest container.  Had Perry Stevens (D-51) assemble it and make it all legal (which involved cutting off some Navy canopy mod that had yellow nylon tape segments sewn between panels along the skirt, had some purpose in water landings). 

That 26 ft Navy Conical saved my life later on when I had to cut away from a high speed malfunction. I had heard horror stories about the 24 ft twill reserve canopies ripping from top to bottom on terminal openings. My trusty Navy Conical gave me a standup landing in the pea gravel. 

Still wonder about the Tosaw account of Cooper reading a packing card. Wish I could talk to Tina Mucklow about that alleged incident. 

Derek, what's with the attitude? Let's all be cordial here. There is room for disagreement without disrespect. No need to start the spiral into chaos that got this forum shut down last time.

377

 

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Robert B, how do you get those killer deals on Amazon?

Hope you find something relevant with your metal detectors. 

Needle in a haystack but still fun trying. 

377

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(edited)
5 hours ago, 377 said:

Robert B, how do you get those killer deals on Amazon?

Hope you find something relevant with your metal detectors. 

Needle in a haystack but still fun trying. 

377

One thing is that the more you look at something at Amazon...sometimes they keep coming back with a better offer. They track your viewing history there. Then...when that same item gets returned to Amazon, they drop the price by a ton and offer it to you the next time you look at it.

Nicky B is flying up to Portland to attend and Darren is picking him up so they will drive up about 70 miles from there together. More details soon. I told Bruce he was more than welcome to go. Or anyone else for that matter. 

EDIT: On Hahneman, I did not know he exited that way.  I'm no expert on this stuff. I just put myself into the shoes of the hijacker once. Thought about what I might do if the stairs only dropped three feet. Go out forward and they drop the remainder of the way real suddenly...you could end up head over heels and off you go. I would have turned around too.

Then I would have come back UP the stairs and turned myself in.  :) I have courage, but I don't think I have enough to do something like that. 

Another Edit (last one) Well, my day went to hell. I just got word that my friend Ron died of a stroke yesterday. Met him in 1982, at the same time I first met Greg the Techie Guy. Both Greg and I are crushed right now. I've been asked to show up to Ron's house in Puyallup (WA) this Saturday and say a few words, provide some funny memories. Ron, Greg, and I spent a lot of time fixing up cars, going camping and shooting and fishing, and the usual stuff guys do. Ron was a couple of years younger than I am. Hit me right out of left field. I thought the guy would live forever. I know none of you knew Ron, so it's okay if you don't offer anything here. But yes...I am pretty bummed. What was Ron like? Easy answer. We were all together watching TV long ago when The Simpsons first premiered. After the first few minutes everyone in the room looked over at Ronnie and realized Ron WAS Homer Simpson. Talked the same way, looked the same. But Ron was smarter and somewhat nicer than Homer. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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6 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I know none of you knew Ron, so it's okay if you don't offer anything here.

One of the best things about skydiving is the bond, the camaraderie, the brotherhood. A skydiver can walk onto a drop zone anywhere in the world and instantly be among family. And to whatever degree that you have tangented this family by writing in this forum for years, you are welcome. You've always shared personal things about yourself, and you seem like a genuine human being. Any skydiver that's been around for a while knows what it's like to lose a friend suddenly and unexpectedly, so we feel for you. Sincere condolences for your loss. Cry, scream, go outside and kick rocks, come back in and pet your cat. When you go to his house Saturday, tell stories. Poignant ones, funny ones. When someone goes, there's nothing you can do about it but revel in that they were your friend.

BSBD

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On 4/9/2019 at 2:40 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

Yeah, I still wonder about the case from time to time. 

I just couldn't stand the garbage being spewed in here. I'd pop back in and read whatever was current, but it never changed.

I wasn't terribly surprised to see the back-biting and bickering start up almost immediately. 
I was half expecting Meso to go "Well, we tried. It was a mistake" and lock it up again. 

Folks like you, Sluggo, Ckret, SafecrackPLF, and a lot of others cared about data, real information.

Unfortunately, too many had an agenda. Simply promoting their version of the story. And going after anyone who had any data that contradicted it. 

One very simple fact about investigation (of any kind) is that valid data has to be accounted for. You can't simply disregard data that doesn't support your hypothesis. You have to account for the discrepancy somehow. 
Toss in the variability of the data and the uncertainty of what is real and what is false and I don't see the case ever being solved.

 

One bit of info that I learned since the unlock is that the Pioneer rig was also a bailout rig. Not a sport rig, as was surmised back when I was reading everything. Was that figured out before the thread was locked? 
I find it super amusing (as I noted above) that nobody, including Cooper, realized that they gave him 2 bailout rigs, one airworthy reserve, and one training dummy reserve. He couldn't have used the good reserve for anything, except cutting it up and using the lines for whatever purpose he had.

Also, the fact that (presuming the pic posted of the Packing Data Card is correct) the Pioneer rig was out of date by a couple months. May 21 to Nov 24 is a lot more than 120 days (it was 120 in 1971, right?).

I started jumping in 1973 and the repack cycle was 60 days, it was 60 days in 1971.

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Okay...the final plans for the trip to the place where the placard from Flight 305 was found is starting to come together. I am allowed to say who (so far) has committed to showing up. Darren S, the Cooper podcast guy is coming. Nicky B, the guy working on the Cooper book, is flying up from the LA area and Darren will meet him at the Portland Airport. (There's something ironic about that) I will be leaving before dawn on a Friday in June (we're not giving out the exact date publicly, but only to people who are verified to go) and arriving at the spot a few hours prior to set up most of the campsite. That's because I have to bring most of the really heavy gear. 

Two people from the website Infamous Nissan are also coming. One from Puyallup (WA) and the other from Corvallis, Oregon. I know both of them, and the guy from Corvallis has been on these AB of Seattle campouts before. So he knows what they are about. 

Anyone else is free to attend, but you have to arrange it with me first. The reason is because of the supply budget, and I need to know how many are coming. Plus, we don't want anyone getting lost.

So far it's just the five of us, but the amazing thing is that everyone is coming from all these different places to do a common goal. It was kind of like that when I sponsored the Eclipse Trip to eastern Oregon's Magone Lake. We had people from as far as San Jose, CA and that guy actually drove up to Oregon. He was the big hero because he brought a satellite phone and let everyone use it. 

Realistically, we don't expect to find anything. We DO know the dummy chute, the briefcase, etc probably went out right along with the placard, but anything else could be miles away and will never be found. Think of it as a D.B. Cooper camaraderie camp where we search in the daytime, do BBQ, and at night watch movies, play video games etc. Party atmosphere (anything legal anyway) is assured. Anyone interested should PM or email me for details. No one under 21 years of age allowed. 

Our limit on people is 14 at the absolute outside, which is the limit for group camping in that area. I don't think we will get that many, though. Pictures below from the Eclipse trip in August 2017. 

 

 

GroupPhoto1lores.jpg

Total1.jpg

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Not knowing all the details of the case, my understanding is that most people have spent time looking for the money where the kid found those bills, and looking for where Cooper landed, but no one spent much time looking at other spots along the plane's path like where the placard was found.  It would be great to see your group find something during the camp out.  Have there been hikers in that area or searchers?  What else could be found, the bomb or a parachute?

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Well, the briefcase with the 'bomb' in it (general consensus is that the bomb was fake). 
The rig he jumped (Navy NB-6 or NB-8 Harness/Container with it's canopy).

The 'Training Dummy' reserve, container & butchered canopy. 
The money bag from the bank.

The lines that were cut from the other reserve.

 

Of course, the body of a guy in a business suit (no tie) and the rest of the money. However, the above stuff is mostly synthetic materials (nylon for the most part). If Cooper died and wasn't found, there would be very little of him or the money left by now. 

 

Mr Blevins - Good luck with your trip. It sounds like fun. I wish I could join you folks, but it's not possible.

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Pilots initiated idea of airstairs down on takeoff during negotiations to get Tina off the plane so they could escape as planned. Airstairs on takeoff wasn't Cooper's original demand and the idea was initiated by the crew.

 

 

305 HAV NOXXX NEGOTD RLS OF 2 GIRLS LVG ANY MOMENT  3RD GIRL TO STAY ITH ACFT WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTR PLANE AIRBORNE HAVE TRIED TO TEL HIM INXXX UNAM OPRTE STAIRS TO LWRD AFTR TKOFF   TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET  US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF

 

Summary..

2 girls released

Tina to stay to lower stairs in flight

Crew tried to get Cooper to lower stairs himself after takeoff

Trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff

 

 

COOPERAIRSTAIRSPILOTa.jpg.07f2c3fe2b266a2a49df4cf388f327ec.jpg

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(edited)

I don't think you can actually lower the stairs 'partially' on takeoff, although maybe the pilots were just thinking of escape for everyone. They work kind of like what happens when you turn the handle on a hydraulic car jack. If Cooper had agreed to this, that plane never would have gotten off the ground anyway. They would have had to drag the stairs down the tarmac and that's just asking for trouble. 

Sounds reasonable the pilots would try that gambit, though. Tina would bolt down the stairs the second Cooper wasn't looking...the flight crew would have bailed either out the forward door or off the escape rope...and the FBI shooters would have moved in as soon as they saw everyone was clear. Makes sense. 

I always thought it was Cooper who wanted them down at takeoff. I stand corrected. 

EDIT: I saw something important in that exchange. THIS: (sort of translated)

Quote

"Have tried to tell him unable to lower stairs after takeoff..."

That, my friends, was a known lie by the crew. I think Flyjack is RIGHT. The crew was trying to figure out a way for everyone to escape, and that meant Tina had to escape somehow. Out the back. Very good point there, Flyjack. You rock. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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(edited)

Read all the files...still more than these listed below...

Bill even explains in a video about missing the chance when Tina was outside the plane to escape. the lowering of the ladder had nothing to do with Bills plan. 

ladder down.png

ladder again.png

Edited by mrshutter45

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'Confirming person' at Northwest Airlines who said the jet could not take off with the stairs down was almost certainly Paul Soderlind, director of Flight Ops at NWA on Hijacking Day. He's in the Minnesota Aviation Hall of Fame. 

The fact that the jet could still fly with the stairs down in flight was confirmed by tests done at Boeing. These tests were well known to the rank and file at Boeing who worked on the 727 program. Back in those days, everyone kept track of what was happening with 'their' project, even the guys sweeping the floors. If tests weren't mentioned in the employee newsletter, everyone on the floor knew about them, and their results, from scuttlebutt and lunchtime discussions. 

In other words, even if Cooper didn't actually work at Boeing, someone he knew undoubtedly did and probably worked at Boeing during the production and/or development of the 727. Otherwise, how would Cooper know the stairs could be dropped in flight without the jet suddenly changing its flight characteristics and nosing into the ground?

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(edited)
3 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

Read all the files...still more than these listed below...

Bill even explains in a video about missing the chance when Tina was outside the plane to escape. the lowering of the ladder had nothing to do with Bills plan. 

ladder down.png

ladder again.png

It is claimed in some FBI summaries that Cooper wanted the airstairs down on takeoff. They are wrong, that is why everyone believed this false narrative. Those summaries are created from the 302's, those are summaries of FBI interview notes.

The crew comms are absolutely clear and more reliable. Cooper did not initially demand airstairs down on takeoff and it was first brought up by the crew during negotiations to get Tina off the plane. They negotiated the airtairs later. When Cooper knew the plane was going to land in the US he needed to ensure an escape out the airstairs, remember, he got it wrong, he thought the crew controlled the airstairs. (Sorry Klansnic)

 

What does it mean,

Cooper did not want to jump ASAP.

Cooper did not have some unique airstair knowledge.

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, DerekGodsey12 said:

DB Cooper had an Afro according to Panama Flyjack. Wonder if his picture was shown to the witnesses? Of course it was! 

EF61DA02-A265-4142-99CF-D625076E0F4F.jpeg

Derek, 

Stop lying, I never claimed that. 

If you want to use innuendo to discredit others to support your suspect I suggest you go elsewhere.

 

If you want a legit discussion then stop lying.

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