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DB Cooper

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13 minutes ago, snowmman said:

Flyjack: How did you create your list of 9998?

Have you noticed that some of the star notes have sequential serial numbers?

I've identified a couple. Also some star notes are not sequential but from the same printed sheet..i.e. the serial numbers are close enough that they are from the same printed sheet. It's interesting a bank got star notes like this.


What is the total number of star notes vs 9998? I'm wondering if it is in line with the star note distribution printed for the various series years.
 

Creating the list was complicated, I found a site with all the numbers but lots of errors and some of the TBAR bills missing. I looked but can't find it as still existing. Then I went through the the FBI list in the FBI files to check and correct. it was a process that took a lot of time..

The star notes are not random throughout, they are all in the first third. Only one after the 3175th bill in sequence and it was a rare 1950 bill.

G02520742*, G02520743*

I00454621*, I00454622*, I00454629*

L00382906*, L00383269*, L00383494*

L00422974*, L00423163*

Lots more star notes in L bills.. but only the lower numbers

L00982844*, L00982845*, L00982878*, L00982879*, L00982881*

L01850356*, L01850360*

 

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25 minutes ago, snowmman said:

Flyjack, I'm in the process of creating a text list of the 9998 serials from the fbi Hoover memo images in fbi file 55.

I know it's a lot of work. If you were interested in sharing your list, that would be nice, save me some work.

Yeah, I understand, I have been burned before sharing stuff that is why I limit sharing original work now.. 

I really don't want it openly distributed, I might have 40 hours in that list over a few years.

Let me think about it and see if I have that original file with the errors... it is about 95% correct.

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12 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Creating the list was complicated, I found a site with all the numbers but lots of errors and some of the TBAR bills missing. I looked but can't find it as still existing. Then I went through the the FBI list in the FBI files to check and correct. it was a process that took a lot of time..

The star notes are not random throughout, they are all in the first third. Only one after the 3175th bill in sequence and it was a rare 1950 bill.

G02520742*, G02520743*

I00454621*, I00454622*, I00454629*

L00382906*, L00383269*, L00383494*

L00422974*, L00423163*

Lots more star notes in L bills.. but only the lower numbers

L00982844*, L00982845*, L00982878*, L00982879*, L00982881*

L01850356*, L01850360*

 

It's interesting that Sea First got sequential star notes, but apparently no sequential regular notes.

Did you look for sequential non-star notes? I don't think there are any.

Edited by snowmman

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3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yeah, I understand, I have been burned before sharing stuff that is why I limit sharing original work now.. 

I really don't want it openly distributed, I might have 40 hours in that list over a few years.

Let me think about it and see if I have that original file with the errors... it is about 95% correct.

okay.

I am continuing with my list. I have a variety of checking mechanisms. I plan on checking against the check six site with automation. So I'll check his list which is not public.

I'll post my list when I'm done. 

Edited by snowmman

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45 minutes ago, snowmman said:

okay.

I am continuing with my list. I have a variety of checking mechanisms. I plan on checking against the check six site with automation. So I'll check his list which is not public.

I'll post my list when I'm done. 

I think there were some sequential non star notes here is one set, probably more..

G03072378B, G03072380B, G03072381B

I recall that check six had some errors or missing bills..

Shutter is correct, rubber bands breakdown from UV,,,  if the money entered the River in a later Spring in say Spring 78-79 the rubber bands would have years of UV exposure. But, who knows..

Edited by FLYJACK

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32 minutes ago, snowmman said:

okay.

I am continuing with my list. I have a variety of checking mechanisms. I plan on checking against the check six site with automation. So I'll check his list which is not public.

I'll post my list when I'm done. 

The site is gone now,, but still in archives,, 

I started here, it is not complete there are some typos and missing bills.

I started with this and used the FBI list to fix it. Early on I was missing a few FBI pages.. It only groups by the year and not alpha numeric..

The years aren't completely broken down, 1969 is ok, 1963 plus 1963A, 1950 plus A,B,C

https://web.archive.org/web/20190818215640/http://findmycurrency.com/

Edited by FLYJACK

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15 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The site is gone now,, but still in archives,, 

I started here, it is not complete there are some typos and missing bills.

I started with this and used the FBI list to fix it. Early on I was missing a few FBI pages.. It only groups by the year and not alpha numeric..

The years aren't completely broken down, 1969 is ok, 1963 plus 1963A, 1950 plus A,B,C

https://web.archive.org/web/20190818215640/http://findmycurrency.com/

okay. thanks for finding this.

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(edited)

Snow is bringing up stuff I brought up but was trashed for...

Brian.. rubber bands turned to powder when he picked them up and there were darkened bills before any FBI analysis. Fact is Kaye found Silver Nitrate, it was used for fingerprinting at the time but has never been confirmed to have been used on the Cooper bills.. Since Brian noted darkening on some bills before the FBI got them therefore not all the darkening was caused by any FBI print analysis.

What is odd is that some bills are darkened and others not.  Was it specific to one packet? 

There was an old school method of spraying ransom bills with a Silver Nitrate solution to mark them, they would slowly discolour and be unusable.. 

 

billsbandsdark.jpeg.dad34dc593874d360e84c85ab1a667a1.jpeg

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Bew9IOjNCGQC&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=db+cooper+"rubber+bands"++money+tosaw&source=bl&ots=pEA5K6C9T6&sig=dsk6GGaJknQDuiHbjZXZWn3eVYY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIpOvLnJXeAhWSJXwKHSPtDqIQ6AEwCnoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=db cooper "rubber bands" money tosaw&f=false

 

There are bills and fragments that are darkened that don't make sense.

Would they fingerprint a frag like this? doubt it.

lf-4.jpeg.3529f53ad51dfd3188dd8ae5e31e93b8.jpeg.0bae988a82ef61bffadff86dcc995793.jpeg

Here is an odd one, would the FBI apply silver nitrate and miss part of the bill??

984132984_Picture9.png.f8c00f2f0ac106ce5a7712f1810257ea.png.3123b0ed7bdba36bb6be02277fc29e95.png

another odd one.

2013340562_lfcopy3.thumb.jpeg.1429f6152a7c7de0ed3b7e2f4392c921.jpeg

 

Another strange one... this darkening does not look consistent with SN fingerprinting.

lf-2.thumb.jpeg.e0acb9f872b92c121d6c242602912aae.jpeg

481335-21ae8c4b4b89acfb1e586fee295cb193.jpg.c94fa8b28d4faf8d0efc25ffad314bfe.jpg

lf-3.jpeg.7ce460484e597a2a57d3d20782f638c2.jpeg

1998758239_D.B.Coopermoney.jpg.f4ca968873a1100fece756a69b214573.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

and Chaucer gets it wrong again...

The prep phase did not include opening the packets,, 

This is the entire enchilada....  the TBAR money was in the same order as the Micro which was made many months before NORJAK.. The individual packets were not randomized by count.. the bundles were.

You guys still can't get this straight... 

A decade of Georger's misinformation just won't die...

You guys keep going in circles,,, I got this.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

i've found it's always good to bring up old stuff again.

people's perceptions change, different people are in the mix, new data shifts views (like all the fbi files)

it was a lot more weird in the old days when there were no fbi files. 
And part of the deal is people who think their point of view is the one true perception.
I think the cooper thing attracts people who believe their brains are magical pattern perceptors, and they sense a pattern other people can't see.

since it reflects self-perception, it's no wonder people get all defensive/attacking/confrontational. Partly all of this is a reflection of self. IMHO.

Edited by snowmman
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5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

and Chaucer gets it wrong again...

The prep phase did not include opening the packets,, 

This is the entire enchilada....  the TBAR money was in the same order as the Micro which was made many months before NORJAK.. The individual packets were not randomized by count.. the bundles were.

You guys still can't get this straight... 

A decade of Georger's misinformation just won't die...

You guys keep going in circles,,, I got this.

Yeah, I've been musing how the FBI sorted the list.
they could have keypunched the serials unto computer paper cards (the keypunch cards) and had a computer sort.

 

The way the serials are typed in the list, makes it easier for manual verification, because the context provides a limit for "what's legal" in both a vertical and horizontal dimension. Also easier for humans visually to verify.

I found an apparent typing error by the FBI in that list. C instead of 0. Although, if you substitute in the correct 0, the serials were in the right order. (maybe their sort sorts C before 1)

The 2nd thing I found, is that same serial is part of a consecutive non-star serial pair.

 

I posted the details at dbcooperforum on the tena bar subject just now. I posted the image from fbi file 55 so you can see/compare/agree or disagree with me, also.

EDIT: I'm still early in my list creation. so don't know what more might be interesting in the list.

Edited by snowmman

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I put a better theory about the FBI mistype of C at dbcooperforum. I think assuming the C is 0 is wrong, since it's unlikely there were non-star consecutive serials, and especially unlikely that the first one I find is a mistyped serial, where you have to assume C was meant to be 0. 

I posted:
EDIT: another theory would be that the C was a mistype, and that assuming it's supposed to be a 0 is incorrect, because it's unlikely there were non-star consecutive serial numbers and that one "just happened" to be on the one with consecutive serials.

SO: it would mean there is a serial with one digit, that could be 0, 2-9
i.e. it could be any of 9 other serials (1 is already taken)

that's the more likely explanation here. (with the fbi sorting the mistyped C before 1 in this case)

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58 minutes ago, snowmman said:

Yeah, I've been musing how the FBI sorted the list.
they could have keypunched the serials unto computer paper cards (the keypunch cards) and had a computer sort.

 

The way the serials are typed in the list, makes it easier for manual verification, because the context provides a limit for "what's legal" in both a vertical and horizontal dimension. Also easier for humans visually to verify.

I found an apparent typing error by the FBI in that list. C instead of 0. Although, if you substitute in the correct 0, the serials were in the right order. (maybe their sort sorts C before 1)

The 2nd thing I found, is that same serial is part of a consecutive non-star serial pair.

 

I posted the details at dbcooperforum on the tena bar subject just now. I posted the image from fbi file 55 so you can see/compare/agree or disagree with me, also.

I posted the non star sequence notes above somewhere.. that mistyped C one looks like a typo in the list. In Tosaw's book it is a zero.

Yes, looking at stuff again is always a good thing... I even recheck my own stuff. It often gives you more clarity and perspective. One thing I found interesting was to go back to the start of the FBI files and read them again. You see things differently because you have more knowledge than during the first read. Funny, I have so much stuff now that I have caught myself looking for info that I already found... I can't even keep track of it all anymore. Thousands of files and tens of thousands of pages.

I have concluded that the list itself is only good to the check SN's and find some unique ones that may be collectible and google them..

The curation of the list is a rats nest.. and its accuracy cannot be 100% verified, but it is all we have.

The unprocessed micro given to the FBI was an image of half of the bill in order but included 1500 notes not given to Cooper. The 1500 notes were then incorporated into second bank stash and the FBI also needed that micro to sort out the first one. 

Problems..

The chain of custody for the bills vs the micro by the bank prior to NORJAK is unverifiable.

The process for curating the list was deductive one, not a positive recording.

The list is 9998 bills indicating that there was an error in the curating/deduction process.

 

Conclusion, there is no way to confirm the accuracy of the FBI bill list vs the actual bills Cooper received though any errors are likely not material but are theoretically possible.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, snowmman said:


And part of the deal is people who think their point of view is the one true perception.
I think the cooper thing attracts people who believe their brains are magical pattern perceptors, and they sense a pattern other people can't see.

since it reflects self-perception, it's no wonder people get all defensive/attacking/confrontational. Partly all of this is a reflection of self. IMHO.

The Cooper case attracts its share of stubborn narcissists... 

The case is both a collaboration and a competition. Like animal farm.

In any investigation you need to use speculation as a tool to advance inquiry, of course not all speculation is created equal. Speculation is a personal expression of reason, logic, history and experience... some are better at it than others. I found that Cooper sleuths will use speculation to reject unknowns... that ends intellectual inquiry prematurely. Never reject based on speculation... reject on facts.

So, I get pissed when people claim Hahneman isn't Cooper with no evidence or adequate knowledge about him. Neither should they assert he is with inadequate knowledge. The correct position, the unbiased rational position is to be neutral. It isn't yes or no, there is a neutral.. and that same dynamic also exist in most other aspects of the case.

I pointed out the problems with money years ago and was trashed and told to shut up by people who didn't see what I saw and turned out to be true. That is a reflection on those people.

The Cooper case is really just a very complex logic puzzle.. but we have pieces missing and some that don't even belong. The trick is to realize there is no spoon.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
33 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Indeed it does...

 

You threw an embarrassing childish hissy fit and ran off trashing DZ because I didn't accept your speculative theory which was factually flawed..

To return...

Stay classy C...  you owe this place an apology.

You proud of your behaviour,,, that was Georger level crazy..

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

This is fascinating...  

If this quote from Cossey is true.. it explains everything. Cossey assumed two of his back rigs from Issaquah went to Cooper with the front reserves,,, that explains the sport rig vs NB-8 in the FBI files and ultimately Cossey got the NB6/8 rig taken by Cooper wrong based on an assumption.. the rig left and returned to Hayden was not a freefall rig.

It looks like the FBI relying on Cossey has undermined the case entirely.

https://uspa.org/p/Article/the-secrets-of-db-cooper-part-one-notorious-flight-305


"Gear Details
The evening of the hijacking, Cossey received another call from authorities after the jet landed in Reno, and he then learned what happened to his gear. Cossey explains, “The skydiver staying at the loft had grabbed two of my personal backpacks and two chest packs from the drop zone. One was my B-4 sport rig and the other was my Pioneer NB-8, a Navy emergency chute used for pilots.” Over the phone, Cossey learned that Cooper took his NB-8 pilot emergency backpack and that his freefall rig remained in the aircraft."

 

 

Later, Cossey told Carr the chutes came from his home..

It all makes sense now,, initially Cossey thought/assumed two of his back chutes were taken from Issaquah and given to Cooper, a sport rig and a custom NB6/8.. as noted in FBI files.

Cossey conveyed his description of the chutes to the FBI, later he must have realized his mistake but never admitted it.. Instead his chute story shifted...

They were looking for the wrong chute for 50 years..

 

Cooper must have used.,,

MAKE: Pioneer Parachute Co.

TYPE: 24' Ripstop Conical 

SERIAL NO: 60-9707

DATE OF MFR: July, 1960

INSPECTED BY: May 21, 1971 by E J Cossey on  riggers license number 159638

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You threw an embarrassing childish hissy fit and ran off trashing DZ because I didn't accept your speculative theory which was factually flawed..

To return...

Stay classy C...  you owe this place an apology.

You proud of your behaviour,,, that was Georger level crazy..

I left because you are a stubborn narcissist.

Besides…don’t worry about me…”you got this”

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27 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I left because you are a stubborn narcissist.

Besides…don’t worry about me…”you got this”

Apparently you returned, to a place you trashed.. to project.

I am embarrassed for you,,,  you behaviour was childish,,, making your kids proud are you.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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28 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Takes a special kind of asshole to bring someone’s children into this. 
 

Who should be embarrassed?

 

YOU..  a grown man with kids behaving like you did...  proud of yourself too. You owe this forum an apology and instead double down like a stubborn narcissist.

All I did was agree with the FBI jump time analysis based on my review, you lied and claimed I needed the 8:11 time for some "agenda" paraphrasing but that was BS. 

That is the same immature tactic Georger uses when he doesn't get his way. Discredit others.

You have one opportunity here for redemption, either apologize or don't and confirm that you are a fraud.

 

Otherwise,

For now on hence forth you shall be deemed Geoger's mini me,, or miniG..

 

You decide,, but I am getting back to the case, you bore me.

Edited by FLYJACK

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