10 10
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

Robert99


Jo, You don't understand how the Air Traffic Control system operates. On the flight to Reno, the Portland Airport would not be contacted by the airliner which was under direct control of the Seattle ATC Center. Portland was NOT involved.
Robert99



DO you know how the Air Traffic Control worked in 1971 under the circumstances given? NO you don't, you were NOT there. How many time does one have to explain WA was having some air traffic problems at the time & why the guys were on loan from Atlanta's ATC

This has been completely ignored with statements such as the statements you have repeatedly made...BUT, there was a CIRCUMSTANCE going on and that changed everything.

The communications with Portland are VERY necessary NOT for me but for someone like you to understand that what was happening in 1971 was NOT ordinary circumstances. WA had ATC problems and this was a SKYJACKING - If the plane was NOT talking to Portland - then PORTLAND was definitely listening and they were transcribing! Since the plane was almost on top of Portland and with a BOMB on it - you know what I am telling is true.

ALL ears were on that plane!
The Crew had been instructed to do what they needed to do...and the crew did just that. You do know they were hoping to come in over Portland PDX and/or a near the Airport with enough visibility to determine if Cooper WAS gone.

None of the so called sitings were verified by the FBI.

You do know that in 1971 adjacent and South of the Trout Airport was an area that was used by jumpers?
I think the crew was doing all they could to provide Cooper a way to exit that plane.

All the crew wanted was for Cooper to get off that plane - and they did everything they could do to make that happen. They knew Cooper would not jump over Portland and that he had planned to jump relatively quickly.

Why the hell would Cooper wait until he knew he was over Portland or the river? Too populated! As the plane made an Eastward adjustment... Coop jumped shortly after that little Eastward adjustment...just what he needed with the wind factor. The co-pilot was a jumper himself - he knew how to accomodate Cooper off of that plane.

Gone Poof or Ignored!

REMEMBER THEY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE IF THE PLANE COULD BE FLOWN WITH THE AFT STAIRS DOWN....FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME.
AND THERE AS ALSO THE FEAR OF LANDING WITH THE AFT DOWN,

There were a LOT of unknowns in this skyjacking.

Wonder if the FBI checked out the ATC's on loan to WA during that time to see HOW many of them had jumping experience.

Great combination - jumper and ATC. These guys certainly didn't like the idea they could NOT get Life insurance outside of what their employment offered other than a supplemental with an outrageous price on it.

Because of the product of a company Duane worked for - he had lots of contacts with ATCs and SKYJUMPERs. WHY did the FBI just ignore Weber and his background.

Did the FBI actually check Weber's background after finding he was an excon. Did they NOT think it ODD this EX-CON sold insurance - you can't be an excon and hold an insurance license.

PERHAPS the FBI didn't train their agents very well?

The company was pointed out & by the existence of the rental left at the airport - but SUPPOSEDLY this was checked out and they simply stated it was a business out of the S.E. WHAT business?????

A company connected to Weber's prior employment - but the FBI ignored this!

Just to much!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Robert99 says in part:

Quote

'Your comments on the so-called FBI map are meaningless. Do you have any information that the flight path on that map even represents the hijacked airliner? How about showing some proof for once...'



You should be going to the Seattle FBI and asking them about this alleged path. This is a sort of baseline point here. Ask yourself (and them) why they continue to make that map available on their website as the 'flight path map' if it is not anything of the sort.

There is also the question of the initial search, which was done many miles from Tina Bar, in the Ariel/Amboy area. You have this map by the FBI, you have this search. I will agree that having the UN-redacted transcripts would be a help, but what is available for research currently shows that Flight 305 was at least five miles east of Tina Bar when it passed by that area. Some of the chute experts here have said that five or six miles is too much distance to explain by using canopy drift from a jump altitude of about 9,600 feet.

What we have here isn't 'failure to communicate,' as Strother Martin once said, but 'insufficient data'. So what do you do? If you can't get the FBI to verify the map officially as accurate, even though they are the ones offering it up on their own website, then you must go to the ONLY remaining good source: The co-pilot. You should contact Bill Rataczak and talk to him. Or...you could go through Bruce Kitt at NWA History dot org and submit your question to Rataczak through him. Kitt has access, although Rataczak has been known to take phone calls personally. (He is in the phone book)

I had actually submitted this question for you to Kitt, and he was going to ask Rataczak about it for me...that is...until Georger heard that Mr Kitt was planning to drop by and talk to me on Kitt's trip to Seattle in August. We all know what happened next. Georger called him on the phone, and I don't know exactly what was said, but by the time he got through with Kitt, Mr Kitt had changed his mind. I imagine Georger bad-mouthed me pretty heavily to Kitt, since Georger was doing the same thing here at Dropzone, and after he was banned...called me an 'SOB' at the alternate site.

This type of behavior is why there is little cooperation in Cooperland. Backbiting, jealousy, hatred, etc run rampant among investigators in the Cooper case. In any case, I may try again with Kitt, and explain to him that Warner's actions at Dropzone were based on personal issues and not so much on the case itself. And...that Warner was finally banned for them. And...that the question itself of where the flight actually WAS while still north of Vancouver is legitimate. And...that only Rataczak can settle this question, since the Seattle FBI is unwilling to discuss it.

SIDE NOTE: I have been contacted by the owner of a local bookstore in South King County on the idea of partnering up for a presentation at the Auburn Avenue Theater this coming spring. The theater can be rented for $280 a day if you don't charge admission, and slightly more if you do. The Auburn Days' Festival has always been a tricky venue to do anything Cooper-related because people don't go the festival for Cooper. They go for food, the parade, the vendors, the pony rides, etc. It's been suggested to me that we should do something there when it isn't 90 plus degrees outside in the middle of a festival where you have to park blocks away to get to the theater. Ordinarily, people would use the parking lots out back of the theater.

I am open to this idea, i.e. a celebration of Cooper...with different speakers, plus both homemade and feature films on anything Cooper. I'm sure a panel discussion would be part of that. Now that Georger (Warner) is no longer around to bad-mouth, or attempt to sabotage any such efforts headed by AB, we may go forward with it. We're not rich at AB, but even we can afford a $280 rental, which comes with a city employee to run the PA and media systems at the theater. Perhaps if some of you would set aside your petty hatreds and differences, you might decide to participate.

The Ave gets heavy turnout for everything it presents there. It is an integral part of Auburn, and when they run plays by the Community Players, they pack the house at fifteen to twenty dollars a seat. So it's not the venue that is a problem for anything Cooper-related. It's trying to do it during the festival. I think we will move forward on this idea.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
***. And if you read the radio transcripts while the airliner was on the ground in Seattle, you would have noted that the crew was interested in not flying over populated areas with a bomb on board.[/quote "Robert99]

Jo writes:

Jo has a story to tell!

:)
R99 replies:

Jo, the Federal Air Regulations plainly state that the pilot is the final authority for the operation of his aircraft. The FBI, NWA, and FAA may "suggest" or "recommend" a certain course of action but the pilot decides if he is going to do that. To repeat, just like a ship's captain, the pilot of the aircraft is the SOLE and FINAL authority as to the operation of that aircraft.

Jo writes:

The final decision was made in the AIR and under pressure. They did what the had to do - and you do KNOW they tried to stay a direct path for the PDX - hoping by then it would be obvious Cooper was gone....none of them knew what to expect...this skyjacking was not like any the FAA had experienced before.

R99 replies:

Jo, you have no basis for the above statements. You are putting words in other people's mouth.

Jo writes:

The decision to by pass Portland was Made in the AIR and by the CREW...because they were NOT sure if Cooper was gone and if he was gone was the BOMB still on the plane? East of Portland - there were NO high rises or condensed populated area - EAST of Portland.

R99 replies:

The bypass decision had nothing to do with whether Cooper had jumped or not. Since the airliner was almost 10,000 feet higher than Portland, high rise buildings were not a factor. The area west of Portland was sparsely populated in 1971. Bypassing on the east side of Portland would add about 15 miles and 5 minutes to the flight path which would have shown up in the data. It does not.

Jo writes:

Also note that right before they turned slightly East into the wind...to facilitate getting Cooper off the plane as quickly as possible.

R99 replies:

Jo, the winds aloft were from the Southwest, not the East. And the winds aloft did not have anything to do with Cooper getting off the plane.

There is nothing to support the rest of your claims in your post.

Robert99

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
***
Jo, You don't understand how the Air Traffic Control system operates. On the flight to Reno, the Portland Airport would not be contacted by the airliner which was under direct control of the Seattle ATC Center. Portland was NOT involved.
Robert99[/quote "Robert99"]

Jo writes:

DO you know how the Air Traffic Control worked in 1971 under the circumstances given? NO you don't, you were NOT there. How many time does one have to explain WA was having some air traffic problems at the time & why the guys were on loan from Atlanta's ATC

R99 replies:

Jo, You are just blowing more smoke. In 1971, I was an active pilot. The US Air Traffic Control system is highly standardized. It doesn't make any difference where the controllers were from. They would be trained and certified to meet the Seattle ATC standards. And there is nothing to support you claim of air traffic control problems in Seattle in the first place.

Jo writes:

The communications with Portland are VERY necessary NOT for me but for someone like you to understand that what was happening in 1971 was NOT ordinary circumstances.

R99 replies:

There is no evidence of any communications between Portland and the airliner when it was headed for
Reno. I think it is self-evident that the hijacking of an airliner is not ordinary circumstances.

Jo writes:

The Crew had been instructed to do what they needed to do...and the crew did just that. You do know they were hoping to come in over Portland PDX and/or a near by Airport with enough visibility to determine if Cooper WAS gone.

R99 replies:

Jo, you have got to be kidding about the above claims. You are just blowing more smoke. There is basis for such claims. This is just another Jo Weber fantasy.

The rest of Jo's post is still more nonsense which has been addressed a few posts back.

Robert99

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have sent a detailed message to Bruce Kitt, along with the attached portion of this alleged map, asking him to contact Rataczak and verify if this portion of the map is ACCURATE.

Since the Seattle FBI is unwilling to answer the basic question on this map, (its accuracy) I figure it is time to go to the best remaining source: The co-pilot.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The Federal Air Regulations plainly state that the pilot is the final authority for the operation of his aircraft. To repeat, just like a ship's captain, the pilot of the aircraft is the SOLE and FINAL authority as to the operation of that aircraft.



Isn't that what I have been saying? Why do you think the crew - Pilot and Co-Pilot did NOT utilize this standard?

I have basis for my statement below:

"The final decision was made in the AIR and under pressure. They did what the had to do - and you do KNOW they tried to stay a direct path for the PDX - hoping by then it would be obvious Cooper was gone....none of them knew what to expect...this skyjacking was not like any the FAA had experienced before".

Pick up the phone or arrange for all of the crew to be sequestered for a new briefing. Remember I DID have a discussion with the Pilot before he died! He was very nice considering his own circumstances...and I spoke with his wife after he died - to offer condolences.

I still have the notes I took during my conversation with the pilot. Wish I had know then what I know now - so many questions unanswered because I didn't know what to ask.

The ONLY one left with the truths regarding what happened on the plane is the Co-pilot.



]
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RobertMBlevins

Robert99 says in part:

***'Your comments on the so-called FBI map are meaningless. Do you have any information that the flight path on that map even represents the hijacked airliner? How about showing some proof for once...'



You should be going to the Seattle FBI and asking them about this alleged path. This is a sort of baseline point here. Ask yourself (and them) why they continue to make that map available on their website as the 'flight path map' if it is not anything of the sort.

[The rest of Blevins post has been deleted as irrelevant.]

Blevins, instead of pontificating about what other people should do, do your own homework.

Take a look at the things related to Cooper in the FBI's "vault" which is accessible on their web page. Do you actually believe that the FBI is going to attest to the accuracy of everything that is in that vault?

Robert99

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ParrotheadVol

R99, your theory is at least possible and believable. Unlike any theory requiring a plant.



R99 should have contacted Bill Rataczak on this theory long ago. This isn't a question that requires much research, or a re-writing of reality. The co-pilot would know the truth.

FYI: Rataczak told Skipp Porteous in a phone interview that he does research (even today) on the Cooper case. He has notes, files, etc. He was THERE. I think the most basic question, i.e. 'where was the flight while it was still north of Vancouver' is one Rataczak could answer easily.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RobertMBlevins

***R99, your theory is at least possible and believable. Unlike any theory requiring a plant.



R99 should have contacted Bill Rataczak on this theory long ago. This isn't a question that requires much research, or a re-writing of reality. The co-pilot would know the truth.

FYI: Rataczak told Skipp Porteous in a phone interview that he does research (even today) on the Cooper case. He has notes, files, etc. He was THERE. I think the most basic question, i.e. 'where was the flight while it was still north of Vancouver' is one Rataczak could answer easily.

Why don't you just ask him if you have some questions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Robert99



You should be going to the Seattle FBI and asking them about this alleged path. This is a sort of baseline point here. Ask yourself (and them) why they continue to make that map available on their website as the 'flight path map' if it is not anything of the sort.

Take a look at the things related to Cooper in the FBI's "vault" which is accessible on their web page. Do you actually believe that the FBI is going to attest to the accuracy of everything that is in that vault?

Robert99




I will answer that ONE for everyone.
NO the FBI cannot ATTEST to the accuracy of that Web site.

Some of the information was supplied by a former agents & inaccurate. Also the providers of the information & those who write the information make changes and /or their interpretations.

Do they have a map on there with the word NO written on it? The map with "NO" written is NOT the actual map used by the FBI in 1971. I know how and when and who created that map.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
skyjack71

***

You should be going to the Seattle FBI and asking them about this alleged path. This is a sort of baseline point here. Ask yourself (and them) why they continue to make that map available on their website as the 'flight path map' if it is not anything of the sort.

Take a look at the things related to Cooper in the FBI's "vault" which is accessible on their web page. Do you actually believe that the FBI is going to attest to the accuracy of everything that is in that vault?

Robert99




I will answer that ONE for everyone.
NO the FBI cannot ATTEST to the accuracy of that Web site.

Some of that was supplied by a former agents is inaccurate. Also the providers of the information & those who write the information make changes and /or their interpertations of what is being presented.

Do they have a map on there with the word NO written on it - well any map with NO written is NOT the actual map used by the FBI. I know how and when that NO got on that map.

Jo, Please make an effort to get your quotes right.

The first paragraph you quote above was actually from Blevins. The second paragraph is from me.

Robert99

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Robert99

******R99, your theory is at least possible and believable. Unlike any theory requiring a plant.



R99 should have contacted Bill Rataczak on this theory long ago. This isn't a question that requires much research, or a re-writing of reality. The co-pilot would know the truth.

FYI: Rataczak told Skipp Porteous in a phone interview that he does research (even today) on the Cooper case. He has notes, files, etc. He was THERE. I think the most basic question, i.e. 'where was the flight while it was still north of Vancouver' is one Rataczak could answer easily.

Why don't you just ask him if you have some questions?

I have done this today. Question and map submitted. No complicated or multiple questions, just the obvious one:

Quote

'Is this attached map, the one allegedly showing the flight path of 305 north of Portland...accurate?'



My homework? YOU'RE the one who thinks the map is inaccurate, in your attempts to move the flight over Tina Bar to explain the money. You've had quite a bit to say on that. This is no problem, but I'm surprised you haven't gone to Rataczak on this question long ago. I never had a doubt the flight missed Tina Bar by miles, so any homework would not be mine. I'm simply asking the question YOU should have asked when you came up with that idea. It's almost as if you are afraid of what Bill Rataczak will tell you. Fortunately, I have no such fear.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RobertMBlevins



My homework? YOU'RE the one who thinks the map is inaccurate, in your attempts to move the flight over Tina Bar to explain the money. You've had quite a bit to say on that. This is no problem, but I'm surprised you haven't gone to Rataczak on this question long ago. I never had a doubt the flight missed Tina Bar by miles, so any homework would not be mine. I'm simply asking the question YOU should have asked when you came up with that idea. It's almost as if you are afraid of what Bill Rataczak will tell you. Fortunately, I have no such fear.



Blevins, You are the one who claims the FBI map is accurate. So where is your EVIDENCE, not SPECULATIONS, to support your claim?

Here's how things work in the real world. You claim the map is correct, then you produce some facts to support your claim. You haven't done a single thing to show that the map is real.

My statements that the maps shown as depicting the flight path are nonsense were first made in 2009. At the same time, I posted some numbers on Sluggo's web page to support my statements. This was about a year before you joined this thread.

I'm sure that you have that information, and everything else on Sluggo's web page, on your computer so it should not be a big job to take a look at it.

Robert99

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Robert99

***

My homework? YOU'RE the one who thinks the map is inaccurate, in your attempts to move the flight over Tina Bar to explain the money. You've had quite a bit to say on that. This is no problem, but I'm surprised you haven't gone to Rataczak on this question long ago. I never had a doubt the flight missed Tina Bar by miles, so any homework would not be mine. I'm simply asking the question YOU should have asked when you came up with that idea. It's almost as if you are afraid of what Bill Rataczak will tell you. Fortunately, I have no such fear.



Blevins, You are the one who claims the FBI map is accurate. So where is your EVIDENCE, not SPECULATIONS, to support your claim?

Here's how things work in the real world. You claim the map is correct, then you produce some facts to support your claim. You haven't done a single thing to show that the map is real.

My statements that the maps shown as depicting the flight path are nonsense were first made in 2009. At the same time, I posted some numbers on Sluggo's web page to support my statements. This was about a year before you joined this thread.

I'm sure that you have that information, and everything else on Sluggo's web page, on your computer so it should not be a big job to take a look at it.

Robert99

I'm not trying to pass the buck. There is the map. Then there is you saying it is wrong. Special Agent Larry Carr is the person who provided that map on request. He was a former Cooper case agent.

What will be your response if Bill Rataczak says the flight was just east of Vancouver as it approached that city, and was never over the Tina Bar area?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RobertMBlevins

******

My homework? YOU'RE the one who thinks the map is inaccurate, in your attempts to move the flight over Tina Bar to explain the money. You've had quite a bit to say on that. This is no problem, but I'm surprised you haven't gone to Rataczak on this question long ago. I never had a doubt the flight missed Tina Bar by miles, so any homework would not be mine. I'm simply asking the question YOU should have asked when you came up with that idea. It's almost as if you are afraid of what Bill Rataczak will tell you. Fortunately, I have no such fear.



Blevins, You are the one who claims the FBI map is accurate. So where is your EVIDENCE, not SPECULATIONS, to support your claim?

Here's how things work in the real world. You claim the map is correct, then you produce some facts to support your claim. You haven't done a single thing to show that the map is real.

My statements that the maps shown as depicting the flight path are nonsense were first made in 2009. At the same time, I posted some numbers on Sluggo's web page to support my statements. This was about a year before you joined this thread.

I'm sure that you have that information, and everything else on Sluggo's web page, on your computer so it should not be a big job to take a look at it.

Robert99

I'm not trying to pass the buck. There is the map. Then there is you saying it is wrong. Special Agent Larry Carr is the person who provided that map on request. He was a former Cooper case agent.

What will be your response if Bill Rataczak says the flight was just east of Vancouver as it approached that city, and was never over the Tina Bar area?

My response would be to ask him what he was doing "east of Vancouver" as you put it.

What will your response be if Rataczak says the flight bypassed Portland on the west side?

Actually, your response would be that is impossible since KC was still breathing at 8:30 PM PST on November 24, 1971, and in all probability DB Cooper wasn't.

Robert99

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

My response would be to ask him what he was doing "east of Vancouver" as you put it.

What will your response be if Rataczak says the flight bypassed Portland on the west side?

Actually, your response would be that is impossible since KC was still breathing at 8:30 PM PST on November 24, 1971, and in all probability DB Cooper wasn't.

Robert99



Nice dodge. But we weren't talking about Kenny Christiansen, were we? You reached for that because you have NO ANSWER.

Rataczak might tell you something like this:

Quote

'Because I was on the flight deck. Because I was there...'



According to the map provided by Special Agent Larry Carr, there is a line showing that Flight 305 was on the east side of the interstate at all times while it was between Olympia and just a bit north of Vancouver. Which means they didn't go over Tina Bar. The question I asked about it is legitimate. What makes YOU right, and Larry Carr wrong?

I would like to hear Rataczak's imput on all this. There is nothing wrong with that. You start grabbing for KC references because you are afraid Rataczak might give the 'wrong' answer and negate your Tina Bar Overflight theory. Since you are the proponent of this theory (and who knows, you could be RIGHT), then you should have tried to verify this through Rataczak clear back in 2009, correct? We're not talking about bypassing Portland on the west side. Even the map shows the flight turned to the SW, but NOT UNTIL IT REACHED THE VANCOUVER AREA.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Robert99

***. And if you read the radio transcripts while the airliner was on the ground in Seattle, you would have noted that the crew was interested in not flying over populated areas with a bomb on board.[/quote "Robert99]

Jo writes:

Jo has a story to tell!

:)
R99 replies:

Jo, the Federal Air Regulations plainly state that the pilot is the final authority for the operation of his aircraft. The FBI, NWA, and FAA may "suggest" or "recommend" a certain course of action but the pilot decides if he is going to do that. To repeat, just like a ship's captain, the pilot of the aircraft is the SOLE and FINAL authority as to the operation of that aircraft.

Jo writes:

The final decision was made in the AIR and under pressure. They did what the had to do - and you do KNOW they tried to stay a direct path for the PDX - hoping by then it would be obvious Cooper was gone....none of them knew what to expect...this skyjacking was not like any the FAA had experienced before.

R99 replies:

Jo, you have no basis for the above statements. You are putting words in other people's mouth.

Jo writes:

The decision to by pass Portland was Made in the AIR and by the CREW...because they were NOT sure if Cooper was gone and if he was gone was the BOMB still on the plane? East of Portland - there were NO high rises or condensed populated area - EAST of Portland.

R99 replies:

The bypass decision had nothing to do with whether Cooper had jumped or not. Since the airliner was almost 10,000 feet higher than Portland, high rise buildings were not a factor. The area west of Portland was sparsely populated in 1971. Bypassing on the east side of Portland would add about 15 miles and 5 minutes to the flight path which would have shown up in the data. It does not.

Jo writes:
I am talking about Cooper possibly landing in Portland with the wind drift. If the wind was taking him East - Cooper and a bomb could have landed in the Portland suburbs. The co-pilot was a jumper - he knew this.

R99 replies:

Jo, the winds aloft were from the Southwest, not the East. And the winds aloft did not have anything to do with Cooper getting off the plane.

Jo Adds:
- I got my directions mixed up in the posting. I know the direction of the wind. Was just me being tired and trying to get across what I was trying to say in laymans terms.

There is nothing to support the rest of your claims in your post.

Robert99



There is MORE than enough to support this - go a back and read the corrections I made...above.
The wind would have carried Cooper to the EAST.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Robert99

******

You should be going to the Seattle FBI and asking them about this alleged path. This is a sort of baseline point here. Ask yourself (and them) why they continue to make that map available on their website as the 'flight path map' if it is not anything of the sort.

Take a look at the things related to Cooper in the FBI's "vault" which is accessible on their web page. Do you actually believe that the FBI is going to attest to the accuracy of everything that is in that vault?

Robert99




I will answer that ONE for everyone.
NO the FBI cannot ATTEST to the accuracy of that Web site.

Some of that was supplied by a former agents is inaccurate. Also the providers of the information & those who write the information make changes and /or their interpertations of what is being presented.

Do they have a map on there with the word NO written on it - well any map with NO written is NOT the actual map used by the FBI. I know how and when that NO got on that map.

Jo, Please make an effort to get your quotes right.

The first paragraph you quote above was actually from Blevins. The second paragraph is from me.

Robert99

Go back and look yourself - the quote thing is not working in the thread. It is not working the way it used to...it was simple and now it is complicated or I have aged 10 yrs in the last few pages.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Robert99



Blevins, You are the one who claims the FBI map is accurate. So where is your EVIDENCE, not SPECULATIONS, to support your claim?

Here's how things work in the real world. You claim the map is correct, then you produce some facts to support your claim. You haven't done a single thing to show that the map is real.

My statements that the maps shown as depicting the flight path are nonsense were first made in 2009. At the same time, I posted some numbers on Sluggo's web page to support my statements. This was about a year before you joined this thread.

I'm sure that you have that information, and everything else on Sluggo's web page, on your computer so it should not be a big job to take a look at it.

Robert99



NOW Robert99 - you and I are on the same page! THIS is what I have tried to say....that map was created and I know who created it and who wrote the "NO" on it! I think you also know who created that particular map...with the "NO" on it, but do you know who wrote the "NO" on it? I do! If you have PM's open I will explain to you the origin of the map and the NO.

As for the thread - let them figure it out....I have known about this since its orientation in this thread and someone using the WRONG map. That map with the NO on it had some adjustments made to it, but for some reason it has been carried thru this thread for yrs as the official map.

I have what was known as the official map, but the disk will not open it in anything I have...others I sent it to also cannot open it. Comes up stating Corrupted!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It was essential the plane get Cooper and his BOMB into a less potentially disastrous situation. The co-pilot and pilot did what they had to do - with or without permission....

They knew the direction of the wind and they wanted Cooper off of that plane, but NOT into a heavily populated area. Think about this and think like the co-pilot and pilot had to think....think about the what ifs!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Remember the communications just before Cooper supposedly was last contacted?

Maybe everything was NOT ok? Maybe the reply Cooper made sound agitated & threatening? I believe the transcripts were cleaned up just a tad by omission.

This is when the pilot made a slight turn to the South East and it was at this time Cooper actually jumped. This is when they felt sure Cooper was gone....but what if he was still on the airway and what would happen when Cooper and the bomb hit the ground.

If you were the pilot - would you not have headed for less densely populated areas? Would you not have been prepared for the worse case senario? Appease Cooper make it easy for him. Remember that the co-pilot and his wife were accomplished jumpers.

What would your gut reaction have been....or would you only have considered the plane & the crew? What about those on the ground in the locations Cooper might land in?

Would you NOT have accommodated Cooper for the safety of the above stated reasons?

Perhaps there is a communication never made public - indicating Cooper's aggitation - or just the tone of his voice. Did Cooper make a demand or threat never revealed?

If Cooper had any doubt regarding his abilities to survive - could he have been suicidal? Did he threaten to blow the bomb then and there? What did the co-pilot do?

I know what I would have done.
I would have accommodated Cooper - helped him get off that plane in a not so densely populated area & have kept my mouth shut. Just a slight deviation and enough slant to get Cooper off the aft stairs in an area less likely to harm others on the ground.[:/]:|

:o
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The LAST perported communication by Cooper - what was the location using real time and the actual coordinations at that moment? What was the location of the Swoosh and rebound - What was the coordinations seconds before the rebound. Then factor in the wind and where would that put Cooper on the ground....?

The wind and the speed of the plane then are factored in just after that little curtsey! How far East did Cooper drift and did the wind push him North & East or South of that location? How far was he off his targeted area.

Maybe he didn't have a plan - maybe he expected to die.

The ticket was dry & unstained.
The wallet was old and the imprints of prior ID imbedded in the leather with heat and time. Dry Rot. Was some discoloration - powdery looking which could have been mold, but very little.

The wallet is dark brown Genuine Ostrich.
I never revealed this before -

National Rifle Ass. of America ID
336 467518 7721 44 68 4
John C. Collins
3467 W. Ada Place
Denver, Colorado

Citizens & Peoples National Bank of Pensacola saftey deposit box opened 2/26/90 for Duane L. Weber - this was just weeks before he went POOF for 3 days! The actual John Carson Collins drivers licenses he had acquired on Mar, 8, 1990 with a false ID -

He was picked up about 2 days after he obtained this license as he had been Pic Id'ed & followed after having tried to obtain such a license in another county earlier that same day.

He lost the tail and did acquire the license on that same day.

Then the authorities show up at the shop - regarding the attempt to purchase a license in the other county with the same false ID.

BUT he had already done the JOB...he just had to be sure the Deputies did NOT discover this.

They didn't! A couple of wks later he makes a trip to Omaha with the John Collins ID & retrives the contents of a safe Deposit box under that name.

End of STORY? - Even the authorities did NOT uncover the fact he actually did obtained that license - & yet the application & the receipt & the license was IN the Wallet found in the Van....the contents of which I made available to the FBI.

A 70 yr old terminaly ill patient on the kidney machine outwitted the authorities. He had already committed the deed (he had his John Collins ID) & the locals nor the FBI could figure this out...all of the documentation was in the old wallet....didn't they make copies of it - I sent them copies - why didn't they check it out?

Unbelievable! Well, he actually did it!

Stupid Dumb Crook - not hardly!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blevins writes:

Nice dodge. But we weren't talking about Kenny Christiansen, were we? You reached for that because you have NO ANSWER.

R99 replies:

Blevins, You are ALWAYS talking about KC even if you don't mention him. Even if you would like to disassociate yourself from him at this point, KC is your only interest and your KC story (which is pure bunk in the first place) falls apart if the airliner overflies Tina Bar.

Blevins writes:

Rataczak might tell you something like this:

Quote

'Because I was on the flight deck. Because I was there...'



R99 replies:

Rataczak also might tell me that the airliner overflew Tina Bar or even that shrimp whistle. Hypotheticals are hypotheticals.

Blevins writes:

According to the map provided by Special Agent Larry Carr, there is a line showing that Flight 305 was on the east side of the interstate at all times while it was between Olympia and just a bit north of Vancouver. Which means they didn't go over Tina Bar. The question I asked about it is legitimate. What makes YOU right, and Larry Carr wrong?

R99 replies:

Blevins, have you seen Larry Carr's description of the maps in a YouTube video? You need to see that video and then re-read your claims above. If you need a link to the video say so and I will post it. But you probably already have the link.

Blevins writes:

I would like to hear Rataczak's imput on all this. There is nothing wrong with that. You start grabbing for KC references because you are afraid Rataczak might give the 'wrong' answer and negate your Tina Bar Overflight theory. Since you are the proponent of this theory (and who knows, you could be RIGHT), then you should have tried to verify this through Rataczak clear back in 2009, correct? We're not talking about bypassing Portland on the west side. Even the map shows the flight turned to the SW, but NOT UNTIL IT REACHED THE VANCOUVER AREA.

R99 replies:

Blevins, your hyper-sensitivity about KC is showing. That is probably a direct result of not having a single thing to back up your claims about KC being Cooper.

Read the following very carefully and remember it if you can since I am getting tired of having to repeat this for your benefit. UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES THEN EXISTING, NO PILOT WOULD HAVE FLOWN THAT SEGMENTED ARC AROUND THE WEST SIDE OF PORTLAND THAT IS SHOWN ON THOSE MAPS.

Robert99

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You keep bringing up Kenny Christiansen, but I wasn't discussing him. In fact, I'm not discussing him anymore right now until AB of Seattle finishes our investigation on him. He has nothing to do with this question about the flight path.

I am not the one researching the flight path and making noises about it going over Tina Bar (or very close) in order to explain how the money arrived there. That would be YOU.

I only asked if you had bothered to consult with the one guy out there who might be able to set you straight one way or another on that idea. I never said you were 100% wrong here. But there is insufficient data to come to your conclusions, so the most obvious choice to me (since the FBI won't verify either the map or issue transcipts that aren't redacted) is to go to the source. I see nothing wrong with that.

I feel like I'm doing your job here. Today I sent off an email with a copy of that map to Bruce Kitt and asked him to forward it to Rataczak for his opinion on it. I also asked him about the idea that the flight went over Tina Bar somehow. The problem here is that instead of second-guessing everything with your calculations, (based on incomplete data) you should have done this yourself long ago, not me.

You also said something about running these numbers and making comments on the path clear back in 2009. Are you telling everyone now that it never occurred to you to approach Rataczak? In five years? He IS accessible you know. He will answer phone calls, although he does screen those calls for Cooper Nuts. I think if you left a message for him and stated your credentials, he would return your call. So what is stopping you?

He is IN the phone book...and easy to find. White pages dot com lists him as the SOLE person in the USA with that particular name. Not just in Minnesota, but everywhere. Rataczak is in okay shape, but he is also getting along in years. Maybe you should consult him while you can. Even if you disagree with his comments on the path, you should at least hear his side of things.

(On the off chance his number is no longer listed, I have it in my private files for you, but I cannot post it publicly.)


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I see there is a lot of talk about chatting with Rataczak to clarify where 305 was when Cooper jumped.

That might be useful, but I also think it would be worthwhile to review what has already been revealed by the principals.

1. Rataczak told me he did know where 305 was when DBC jumped. Later in our 70-minute phone conversation he said that 305 was east of V-23 by a couple miles due to the wind.

2. Himmelsbach told me that Rataczak told him that 305 was over the Washougal.

3. Mrs. Cooper says that Rataczak told her that he could see the lights of Vancouver to the right. Not sure what that means. It sounds like perfect Jo Weber haze. But it could very well be V-23-ish, too.

4. Calame and Rhodes say that Scott told the folks at Himms' retirement party in 1980 that 305 was west of V-23 and over Woodland, WA.

5. Larry says V-23 All the Way to Red Bluff, CA!

6. Marianne Lincoln of Shady Acres Airport in Spanaway, WA says that the transmission from Seattle Center she heard were reporting east of V-23 to Gresham and then up the Columbia River Gorge.

7. Multiple eye witnesses allegedly report that they saw a burning object descend from a low-flying aircraft just west of the I-5 bridge over the Columbia, just about the time that 305 passed over the area.

So, what does this mishigas tell us about Norjak? It's just what the FBI likes for public consumption - perfectly mucked up or just another day in the Cooper Vortex?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account. It's free!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
10 10