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DB Cooper

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(edited)
1 hour ago, mark said:

Rigger-Examiner here.  It's not dangerous for the person who asked for the ripcord to be moved.  We do it all the time for people who have physical limitations, and we do it sometimes for people who just have different preferences.

There is conflicting info... typical NORJAK

 

Cossey claims all the chutes were his, Hayden claims the back chutes were his and the one left on the plane and returned to him is confirmed to be his.. Hayden's chutes were packed by Cossey.

 

Cossey was used as an expert to eliminate chutes found after NORJAK. 

Is somebody lying? or assuming..

There is another explanation,, both Hayden and Cossey supplied two back chutes each and only two were given to Cooper. Either both were from Hayden or one from Hayden and one from Cossey...

So, which chute did Cooper actually jump with? Hayden believes it was his second (missing) chute and Cossey believed it was his chute.

Did the FBI mix this up or are they withholding info??

 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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32 minutes ago, EJU said:

Daily DB Cooper Bite...I talk about how we can solve the mystery.

 

You keep pushing the radical alternate fightpath based on unknown assumptions while ignoring all the evidence for the FBI flightpath. The flightpath was a collaboration from the Air Force, Boeing and NorthWest,,  The winds were estimated based on an average between 8-9PM taken at Portland and Salem. Winds around 8 were from the ESE and S. 

The simplest is that the flightpath is correct.

 

This perfectly matches the FBI flightpath, it doesn't match the western alternate.

FBI FILE P 1662

_______  WAS INFORMED BY ___________ PORTLAND AIRPORT, THAT TWO CHASE WHICH PLANES FOLLOWING FIVE MILES BEHIND HIJACKED AIRCRAFT SUDDENLY VEERED TO THE EAST AND THEREAFTER MADE A RIGHT TURN.  THE POINT OF THEIR CHANGE OF COURSE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN CLOSE PROXIMITY IN TIME AND LOCATION TO THAT BELIEVED WHERE UNSUB DEPARTED THE PLANE.

 

 

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(edited)

 

Found something interesting.. 

 

Finally,,  After carefully analyzing the Cooper money in a video in slow motion, I am convinced that the stack has a piece of rubber band attached to the top bill. My theory is that the 3 packets arrived as one bundle, the rubber bands holding the packets together in a bundle deteriorated and the 3 packets slightly separated. The sides of the money packets was completely gone so there is no way the rubber bands were “intact” or “around the packets”, they “crumbled to the touch”..

Downloading and running the video in slow motion it is clear that the object which appears to be a rubber band fragment is under the plastic covering the money attached to the money and not a reflection. 

The takeaway, 

The rubber band was one third from the end, that suggests two were used.

It appears to be a medium wide rubber band. Some are thinner some thicker.

 

Tom Kaye tested a single narrow band for one packet.

 

Two medium thick rubber bands suggests they were holding a bundle of packets and not individual packets of 100 bills.

This is very important as the dominant narrative has been that the packets arrived on TBAR independently and that restricts the means by which they could have arrived.

The 3 packets arriving on TBAR as one bundle is a game changer. FBI agent Pringle also claimed the money was from one bundle.

 

 

rubberbandcoopermoney.jpeg.49095b0c1b22064f1efb142524662ad5.jpeg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

You keep pushing the radical alternate fightpath based on unknown assumptions while ignoring all the evidence for the FBI flightpath. The flightpath was a collaboration from the Air Force, Boeing and NorthWest,,  The winds were estimated based on an average between 8-9PM taken at Portland and Salem. Winds around 8 were from the ESE and S. 

The simplest is that the flightpath is correct.

 

This perfectly matches the FBI flightpath, it doesn't match the western alternate.

FBI FILE P 1662

_______  WAS INFORMED BY ___________ PORTLAND AIRPORT, THAT TWO CHASE WHICH PLANES FOLLOWING FIVE MILES BEHIND HIJACKED AIRCRAFT SUDDENLY VEERED TO THE EAST AND THEREAFTER MADE A RIGHT TURN.  THE POINT OF THEIR CHANGE OF COURSE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN CLOSE PROXIMITY IN TIME AND LOCATION TO THAT BELIEVED WHERE UNSUB DEPARTED THE PLANE.

 

 

As I stated in the Daily DB Cooper Bite, we have to challenge assumptions in this case if we expect to discover something new after 47 years.

Where is the sudden turn to the east on the FBI flight path? How do you explain that each of the three flight path maps (December 1971 version, 1972 version, and Yellow FBI Flight Path version) are all different? How do you explain the money find in relation to the FBI flight paths? How do you explain the placard find in relation to the FBI flight paths? Are you aware that the SAGE link in the fighters was not operational that night, therefore, the fighters couldn't automatically fly to the target? How is it that the fighters were following behind 305, witnessed a phantom turn east, yet were having a problem following 305 and had to break off the pursuit because 305 was only travelling at 200 MPH? Why would an F-106 be incapable of flying at 200 MPH? Why are portions of the radio transcripts concerning Seattle Center redacted? Is it possible that an explanation for the redacted information may relate to an inoperable SAGE system on that night and that, for matters related to national security, this information was not disclosed publicly? Why did Major Dawson, the guy responsible for coordinating the chase plane effort at McChord say the jet flew in a straight line from Toledo to the western suburbs of Portland? Why has nothing been found?

My point is this: By people swallowing and not questioning the Palmer Report for 25-years the truth of the matter became impossible to discover. Why? Because according to Palmer the money had to arrive on Tena Bar after the August 1974 dredge, and according to Palmer, probably arrived around 1979.

Well, guess what, Palmer was wrong? The expert made a mistake as proven by Tom Kaye and the Cooper Research Team in 2008. This one mistake ended up being huge and completely changed the nature of the investigation. Are you here to tell me that you are absolutely certain that the FBI Flight Path isn't Palmer Report 2.0? That it is not possible for the FBI Flight Path to be off by 8 or 9 miles?

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2 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Flyjack asks in part:

Easy answer to a good question, Flyjack:  When Geoff Gray first released the un-redacted files that somehow dropped into his possession, one of the files included a report on the acquisition and delivery of the chutes written by FBI agent John Detlor shortly after the hijacking occurred. I printed up this one-page file and then called Norman Hayden on the phone to verify its accuracy. But I didn't tell him I had that report sitting on the desk in front of me. I just interviewed him for an hour or so on his recollections regarding the chutes. His testimony matched EXACTLY what was in that file. 

Then I told him about the file. Then I read it to him over the phone. He said the only thing wrong in it was that Northwest agreed that the chutes (if he provided them) were to be a loan and a rental, and that he did eventually receive a check from them for this rental. This is how he managed to get the one chute returned to him by the FBI, and how it ended up as a display in the Washington State History Museum. He also requested a copy of the file so he could print it up and frame it for his office in Kent. (WA) I resampled it to 300dpi and sent him a copy in JPEG. 

End result: Hayden's version of events is accurate and matches what the FBI said as well. It's also one of the reasons I have doubts about Cossey's honesty regarding identification of any Cooper chute, including the one found in Amboy in 2008. 

 

 

HaydenCosseyFBIExcerpt3.jpg

That still doesn't tell us which chute Cooper got. Hayden did supply two back chutes, one left on the plane he got back. 

 

FBI files suggest Cossey owned the chute and it was an NB-6 green. 

 

There are several possibilities.. still unresolved.

Cossey is mistaken or lying...

and

The FBI used both of Hayden' back chutes,

or

The FBI used one of Hayden's and one of Cossey's and Cooper took Cossey's.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, EJU said:

As I stated in the Daily DB Cooper Bite, we have to challenge assumptions in this case if we expect to discover something new after 47 years.

Where is the sudden turn to the east on the FBI flight path? How do you explain that each of the three flight path maps (December 1971 version, 1972 version, and Yellow FBI Flight Path version) are all different? How do you explain the money find in relation to the FBI flight paths? How do you explain the placard find in relation to the FBI flight paths? Are you aware that the SAGE link in the fighters was not operational that night, therefore, the fighters couldn't automatically fly to the target? How is it that the fighters were following behind 305, witnessed a phantom turn east, yet were having a problem following 305 and had to break off the pursuit because 305 was only travelling at 200 MPH? Why would an F-106 be incapable of flying at 200 MPH? Why are portions of the radio transcripts concerning Seattle Center redacted? Is it possible that an explanation for the redacted information may relate to an inoperable SAGE system on that night and that, for matters related to national security, this information was not disclosed publicly? Why did Major Dawson, the guy responsible for coordinating the chase plane effort at McChord say the jet flew in a straight line from Toledo to the western suburbs of Portland? Why has nothing been found?

My point is this: By people swallowing and not questioning the Palmer Report for 25-years the truth of the matter became impossible to discover. Why? Because according to Palmer the money had to arrive on Tena Bar after the August 1974 dredge, and according to Palmer, probably arrived around 1979.

Well, guess what, Palmer was wrong? The expert made a mistake as proven by Tom Kaye and the Cooper Research Team in 2008. This one mistake ended up being huge and completely changed the nature of the investigation. Are you here to tell me that you are absolutely certain that the FBI Flight Path isn't Palmer Report 2.0? That it is not possible for the FBI Flight Path to be off by 8 or 9 miles?

I always challenge assumptions, a general truism. But you have done it using weak assumptions and ignoring facts and evidence.

You have engaged in various logical fallacies to push an alternate flightpath including using the Palmer report as a strawman.

 

I have posted the evidence that destroys your alt flightpath idea. You have some very weak assumptions and poor logic. 

 

The FBI flightpath has a veering East around 20:12 and then a turn right exactly as the chase planes described.. a western alternate flightpath doesn't match whatsoever. You continue to ignore the facts.

 

 

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(edited)

FLY, you challenged my assertions in the Daily DB Cooper Bite and I provided a substantive list of questions. Your response to these questions was nothing by mindless rhetoric and platitudes. There is nothing of substance in your answer. I challenge you to point out any substance in your response.

Oh, the 8:12 turn east--which apparently was sudden and intended to bring the jet down center line V23--didn't even happen according to the 1972 FBI Map.

Edited by EJU

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16 minutes ago, EJU said:

FLY, you challenged my assertions in the Daily DB Cooper Bite and I provided a substantive list of questions. Your response to these questions was nothing by mindless rhetoric and platitudes. There is nothing of substance in your answer. I challenge you to point out any substance in your response.

Oh, the 8:12 turn east--which apparently was sudden and intended to bring the jet down center line V23--didn't even happen according to the 1972 FBI Map.

You don't deserve a comprehensive response, you have completely ignored the evidence. I am not going to waste time disproving something that didn't happen based on your own assumptions.

This is nonsense, the FBI flightpath veers E at about 20:12 then turns right about 20:15, exactly as the chase planes describe it did.

It is clear you aren't interested in the facts. There is no discussion from there.

 

If you want to argue that a western flightpath is possible then sure anything IS possible but the overwhelming evidence supports the FBI flightpath and only your assumptions support the Western one. Your weak assumptions aren't enough to overcome the FBI evidence.

 

DB-Cooper-Loot-Map.jpg.0b4a7d2860f41a8da5c1d18c5f7b0095.jpg

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BOOM, I got it figured out....

Cooper took Cossey's back chute not Hayden's. Hayden did supply two back chutes one was given to Cooper and left on the plane but it wasn't the one he got back.. Hayden got back the other chute not given to Cooper. 

Cossey was correct, Cooper jumped with his back chute. NOT Hayden's.

Proof, the unused chute found on the plane was a 1960 model, 24' Pioneer.

The one Hayden got back was a 1957, 26' Pioneer. So, there is no way Cooper jumped with the other Hayden chute. It had to be Cossey's.

 

haydenchutefoundplane.jpeg

dbc-parachutes-hayden-card-pararchute-identification-4.jpg

sagegreenchutecossey.jpeg

cosseychutespacked.jpeg

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(edited)
42 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

As I mentioned on TMN. the 302 could be wrong. most of the info matches except they state 24 foot in length not diameter and the model being 1960...

I doubt the 302 is wrong, the size and year are clearly written on the card.. which was noted as found, I doubt the chute was measured. They just wrote down what the card said.. and Hayden's other chute clearly says 1957 26 ft.

 

E. is 26 ft the chute returned to Hayden, never on the plane. 

the other 24 ft Hayden chute was left on the plane. 

Cooper didn't use either Hayden chute.

 

chutes-1.jpg.678346ed93627ed588cd84ad967e84bb.jpg

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Yeah, I see now you are correct Flyjack. It's been a few years since I interviewed Hayden. I had forgotten something from the interview. Hayden told me (my mistake) that he tried to get BOTH his chutes back. But the FBI wouldn't give him the one with the cut lines because it was still considered evidence in the case. Damn...I forgot he told me that. He was only able to get the unopened one returned. He said he wanted both of them back. 

On a side note, he didn't 'sue' the FBI to get it returned...the one at the WSH Museum. Said he just had a lawyer send a letter with a legal request and the FBI went ahead and returned it. No one went to court or anything. 

 

More confusion, the cut lines was Cossey's reserve chute... sounds like the FBI was confused or intentionally misleading. The FBI kept it because it was left on the plane, they gave him back the other chute..  that can only mean Cooper jumped with Cossey's chute.

 

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(edited)
1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said:

We have to stop saying 'Cossey's chute'. You're beginning to confuse things, although I know you don't mean to. 

Let's go with Sky Sports or Hayden instead, and just admit Cossey didn't actually own any of the chutes. Remember....even I know that dropzones keep parachutes around in case someone wants to be trained enough to do either a first jump (I guess) or even a static line jump (maybe) if they are a novice. (Right? Jump in anytime skydivers!) 

I imagine plenty of people took a jump or two without actually buying their own chute. So where would they rent a chute? Dropzone, right? 

But let's toss out the confusion on ownership here. I believe Hayden, and I believe that Issaquah Sky Sports owned the front packs. We know Cooper jumped with a back pack. Hayden provided both of those. 

Damn. I just went over my notes from the interview. There is NOTHING in them about Hayden asking for TWO chutes being returned. I was wrong on that I guess. Obviously Cooper jumped with Hayden's NB6/8 and the other back pack was returned to him. The front pack belonging to Sky Sports was hacked for its lines and still in the hands of the FBI. The dummy reserve is gone to Northwest heaven...or maybe down by Castle Rock somewhere. 

I'm getting a headache guys...B|

EDIT: How about THIS scenario?

Two back packs. Both provided by Hayden. 

Two front packs. Both provided by Sky Sports. 

One back pack, 28 foot conical...Cooper jumps with it. (NB6)
One back pack, returned to Hayden, donated to WSHM. (Pioneer)
One front pack, cannibalized, held by FBI today. Sky Sports. (Orange front pack)
One front pack, dummy trainer, missing. Sky Sports. 
ALL chutes packed by Cossey. 

*I THINK that's right...*

My read of the evidence is there were 4 back chutes gathered, 2 from Cossey and 2 from Hayden,, (ignore the front reserve chutes)

Two were sent to Cooper, Hayden's 1960 24ft and one of Cossey's..

Hayden's 1960 24 ft chute was left on the plane. 

FBI returned Hayden's 1957 26ft chute to him which wasn't sent to Cooper.

Cossey never got the unused chute back and Cooper used the other.

 

 

Advancing this one step,,

 

Cossey claimed he supplied a Pioneer and another customized type..

When Cossey heard that a Pioneer was left on the plane he would have naturally assumed his other chute, the customized one was used by Cooper.

If the unused Pioneer was Hayden's then Cossey's assumption may have been wrong. Further, if Cooper used Cossey's Pioneer then all the found chutes/parts shown to Cossey would have been wrongly compared. 

 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
12 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Skysports...not Cossey. The mechanic did not own the car. He only 'fixed' it occasionally. 

When you pointed to reference E chute back there in that file, it says 'chute found on board in Reno' (paraphrased) Means it was delivered. Cooper was threatening to blow the plane if he didn't get four chutes. All indications are that the FBI delivered four. Cooper said two front, two back. He got that, only one of the 'fronts' was a trainer. The other front he popped for the lines. One back went on COOPER'S back. The other back was untouched and returned to Hayden. 

We have to stop meeting like this. 9_9

Any of the front packs, had they been returned, would have been returned to Emerick at SkySports. Cossey did not actually own any of the chutes. I don't know how much this matters, though. 

Tell you one thing that is screwing up this whole scenario. The FBI's measurement on one of the chutes doesn't match the packing card. I've been going over this for a while today. I think my assessment back there is correct. 

It refers to two different Hayden chutes.. In Reno, the 24 ft found was Hayden's 1960. He received his 1957 26 ft. the top one listed. 

Cossey claimed he gave two back chutes which he owned. They were at his house.

I realize four chutes were given to Cooper but for clarity I am ignoring the two front reserve chutes. Just focus on the back chutes.

2  back chutes from Cossey, 2 back chutes from Hayden.

four total = 2 front reserves, one was a dummy, Hayden's 1960 24 ft and one of Cossey's chutes delivered to Cooper. Hayden's 1960 24 ft was left on the plane. Cossey's back chute was used by Cooper.

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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7 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Are you saying you think SIX total chutes were brought to SeaTac? That is either untrue, or unproven. 

Agent Detlor's submitted report is the simplest explanation. Two fronts, one a dummy, handed over by Linn Emerick at Sky Sports. One of these was popped for the paracord. The other out the back of the jet. 

Two bailout (backpack) rigs sent off in a cab by Hayden. One used by Cooper, the NB6. The other, the Pioneer, was returned to him. 

Hayden would not have purchased a front pack anyway. He didn't need one, didn't want one, and didn't buy one. He only bought the bailout rigs (back packs) because he was forced to do it by new sport flying rules. Never in his wildest dreams would he have worn a reserve, no way. He barely agreed to wear a bailout rig. He made it clear on the phone that he absolutely LOATHED the idea of jumping with a chute. Trusted the plane, not the nylon. 

Now I'm getting mixed up...okay..this might help. Here's a picture of Hayden's chute, the returned one, from its place of honor at the WSH Museum. 

cooperchutetacoma.jpg

Yes, six chutes collected and four given to Cooper.

 

The back chute found on the plane in Reno was a Pioneer 1960 24ft, Hayden received a 1957 26 ft...

Cooper didn't use either of Hayden's chutes. You can work out the rest..

 

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Flyjack-you posted some files that show he used the term "ladder" versus "stairs."  Someone who flew on military C-47's would have used a ladder to get in the plane right? not stairs.  Doesn't the term ladder indicate military more than someone who was not in the military? 

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(edited)
20 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I have to ask...where did you get this 'six chute' stuff? Agent Detlor says only four went to the airport. I have sent the picture above to '377' asking his opinion. 

HE? could be correct, possible only four went to SeaTac Airport, but six were collected. They didn't go straight to SeaTac.

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 minutes ago, JJG78 said:

Flyjack-you posted some files that show he used the term "ladder" versus "stairs."  Someone who flew on military C-47's would have used a ladder to get in the plane right? not stairs.  Doesn't the term ladder indicate military more than someone who was not in the military? 

Really.. I did not think of that. thanks, I'll have to dig into it more..

 

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2 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

This is the first I have heard about six chutes. No big deal but Agent Detlor is a guy. 

I hope someone jumps in and takes a look at that picture of the chute at the museum. 

This is really simple..

The back chute left on the plane in Reno was inspected, the card was found, it was packed by Cossey May 21/1971, it was a 1960 24ft. 

The chute given back to Hayden was packed by Cossey May 21/1971, it was a 1957 26ft. Written right on the card.

Cossey claimed to have supplied two chute to Norjak. 

FBI notes state Cossey owned the chutes.

Hayden got the 1957 chute back, the 1960 chute was left on the plane, what did Cooper jump with?

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(edited)
10 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

The back chute left on the plane in Reno was inspected, the card was found, it was packed by Cossey May 21/1971, it was a 1960 24ft. (This is the famous pink bubblegum FRONT pack chute.) 

The chute given back to Hayden was packed by Cossey May 21/1971, it was a 1957 26ft. Written right on the card. (This is the one in the WA State History Museum today. Backpack. Bailout rig.)

Cossey claimed to have supplied two chute to Norjak. (This is not true. Linn Emerick at Sky Sports handed them over. Besides, Cossey would have known better than to provide a trainer.)

FBI notes state Cossey owned the chutes. (We know he packed them, yes. Owned them? Doubtful. Even if he did, it's the type and identification of all chutes that matters most.) 

Hayden got the 1957 chute back, the 1960 chute was left on the plane, what did Cooper jump with? (Only leaves the 28 foot conical in the NB6/8 backpack.)

Cossey claimed the back chutes came from his house..

 

The 1960 chute left on the plane was a Pioneer back chute. Hayden got his 1957 back chute returned to him, now at the museum, 

What did Cooper jump with? Both of Hayden's back chutes are accounted for.

Cooper could have only jumped with Cossey's back chute.

Do the math...

Edited by FLYJACK

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29 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I think I will work on this for a bit. I dunno. The report by Agent Detlor is pretty plain. I still think the whole answer is right there in the document. No redactions. This one was part of the series released by Geoff Gray. It lays out the situation well I think. Especially on the sizes and types provided by Hayden, and the fact that only FRONT chutes were provided by Sky Sports. 

 

HaydenCosseyFBIExcerpt3.jpg

Sounds like to me that Cooper jumped with the 'military back pack parachute' the 28 foot conical, belonging to Hayden. 'Civilian luxury type' MUST be the one in the museum because we know the only other working chute had a PINK canopy, not white. So...that only leaves Pinky and the Dummy. Pinky is in the hands of the FBI, Dummy is somewhere on the ground in the Pacific Northwest. 

Probably near Castle Rock. <<<<<(Just kidding on that last line.) B|

EDIT:  Flyjack...do you live anywhere remotely near the Pacific Northwest? Not asking where you live, just wondering if you are in the general area at all. 

That doc is accurate. If you read it carefully it doesn't say that Cooper received both Hayden chutes. Hayden furnished to Northwest Airlines two backpack chutes.

Forget about the front reserves..

We have two Hayden back chutes accounted for.. 

The 1960 left on the plane in Reno.. and the 1957 returned to him.

 

What did Cooper jump with? this is not a trick question.

Cossey claimed Cooper used his customized chute and it came from his house.. everyone thought he was lying, he wasn't.

 

I live in Canada, 2 minutes from the US border.

 

 

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1 hour ago, JJG78 said:

Flyjack-you posted some files that show he used the term "ladder" versus "stairs."  Someone who flew on military C-47's would have used a ladder to get in the plane right? not stairs.  Doesn't the term ladder indicate military more than someone who was not in the military? 

also, when researching the C-47 crewman, I kept reading the phrase "do the job" was that a WW2 phrase?

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