DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

He has been missing for a few days.
Perhaps he is busy or maybe he went to WA. Hope he went to WA. Wish he was in WA.

Shutter didn't diss me like others, but that does not mean he thinks Weber could be Cooper, just that he and 377 are more civil and open minded when addressing anyone and everyone.

NOT a good day - NOT a good day at all. Won't bore you with it - just what I used to do all day takes me all day to do. Well, there come a time when even that statement is NOT adequate.

Perhaps it is time to write an addendum to that popular phrase.

What I used to do all day - is now a pain to begin with!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[smokin99 0]

I hope this post doesn't violate any rules. If it does, let me know and I'll delete it.

Here's the deal as I see it and without bringing personalities into it.

KC is a public figure now - accused of threatening to blow up a plane with innocent people on it in the act of hijacking a plane in order to take money that did not belong to him, i.e., steal.
What a recent author wrote about this public figure is, I believe, an accurate representation of what the author that he cites wrote in an article from here http://nymag.com/news/features/39593/index4.html. Specifically paragraphs 2 and 3. Excerpts follow.....

.....The rumors she heard about him were true: He was taking in troubled kids and runaways. .......
....“He was an amusing character,” McWilliams says now of Kenny. He describes life in the house as “odd.” There were always other men around, men from the Army whom Kenny knew and had relationships with. “It was uncomfortable to me, because I’m not like that, but not everybody lived in that house at night,” McWilliams says.......When Kenny came back from Japan or Germany, there were always gifts: expensive food, big bottles of aged sake, ceramic dolls. Kenny never held back financially. They always ate out. “Any restaurant, really,” McWilliams says. “He’d always call it ‘my turn.’ He’d never accept that I pay for some of the things that he ate.” Kenny also helped Mac and other young men who lived with them learn how to save. Once, as a teenager, McWilliams says, he wanted to buy a car. Kenny opened up a bank account for him and matched every dollar he earned. ......

I did not equate what the current author wrote with molestation or pedophilia. I think for anyone to put those words in the current author's mouth is stretching; however, I would say that, perhaps, if I was the mother of one of these teenage runaways I might find Kenny's largess somewhat "troubling" and worth looking into.

.....On the other hand.....Like Sluggo has said in the past about cultural goggles - What happened in rural America 1970s might not have any bearing on what we would automatically think today. As that mother I might find that he was just a nice guy who envisioned himself as Old McDonald's YMCA and like to help troubled teenagers........Or not.

Whatever the case - proving and winning a lawsuit claiming defamation against a dead person with whom one has no familial relationship, who has been made into a public figure, and who the plaintiff himself claims is likely a criminal that pulled off a terrorist act involving hijacking, bomb threat, and theft seems highly unlikely.

What's the quote - the only people who win are the lawyers

Seriously, the forum was actually starting to be interesting again with some new posters and new stuff to discuss/debate, and now Quade has come on here twice in one day to slap our hands.


I also thought about the cultural goggles the other day when someone said that age 40 in the early 70s was considered over the hill. I tend to agree, though not in what a person was capable of or physical condition. Just their outlook and persona seemed older. Think about people you knew in their mid 40s in 1971. They did seem "older". Middle aged just seemed older then. Or maybe that was just my perspective because they were so much older than I was.
Point being though - we forget sometimes to look at things the way they were in the early 70s - not as they look in today's techno-savvy, politically correct, multi-tasking, media-bombarding, information-overloading world.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[smokin99 0]

I read an interesting article the other day - editorial about Karl Fleming and Donald Murphy. The end of the column basically presents....what-if Murphy was actually the hijacker and answered Fleming's ad intending to get a fraud conviction. Once convicted of a lesser crime like fraud he serves probation or a little time. It would be hard to come back later and convict him of the crime that he was convicted of fraud for confessing to. Lol....have to say that would be classic.

Telegraph-Herald Nov 26, 1972
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SnVFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=p7wMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2139,4695472&dq=karl+fleming+db+cooper&hl=en

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[testxyz 0]

Quote

Didn't Gray say in his book that the bundles were not all exact and that some had more than others to give the appearance that it was quickly put together? I read that somewhere, I think it was Grays book.

Here is what Grey wrote:

"To prepare for a robbery, Seattle First National has set aside a cache
of bills and each serial number of each bill has been recorded on
microfiche. They count out a hundred stacks of twenty-dollar bills,
each stack worth $2,000. The load must weigh twenty pounds, maybe more."

"Inside the airport, the bank officials from Seattle First National bank
lug the ransom into the Northwest flight operations office. The bank
officials cut open a seal of the leather satchel and hand FBI boss
J. Earl Milnes the Canvas bag inside, Its dimension are roughly a
foot by a foot, and eight or nine inches tall. Milnes looks at the
money. He does not count it. He hands the bag to Al Lee, Northwest's
director of flying."

"Al Lee scurries out of the detective's car and around the trunk. He
opens it. He grabs the canvas sack of money and waits for Tina
in the rain"

1) The above suggest the stacks were bundled with rubberbands equally by bank personnel who know how to count stacks of money. Even when rushed.

2) The serial numbers were already on microfiche (recorded by the bank). The FBI serial number list looks like it was reproduced from microfiche

3) The FBI Boss did a quick look-see at money, that was the extent
of the FBI dealings with the money.

Two of the three bundles found by Ingram had 2000 dollars with one bundle missing 10 bills that were either lost to the enviroment or removed by someone.

That is to the path of least resistance.

[quade 3]

What did I say?

Blevins . . . enjoy your vacation.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[BobKnoss 0]

mrshutter45

***************Eye witnesses have often made mistakes in describing physical features of a accused criminals.

We are not talking about just any eyewitnesses. We are talking about two young, intelligent women who spent 5 hours on a plane with him, sitting next to him and talking to him directly, trying to gather as much info about his as possible for the authorities. It wasn't a fleeting glance.

That is why you cannot dismiss Coop's description out of hand. It is one of the best clues there is.

If the FBI was certain of Cooper's eye color they wouldnt have even bothered interviewing Sheridan Peterson much less perform multiple interviews and finally insist on a DNA sample.

I've often wondered why Cooper made little effort to disguise himself. If his eye color on the plane wasnt his real eye color then that might explain it.

Can I prove Peterson was Cooper? No, not even close. Just a bunch of very provocative coincidences.

Even if Sheridan wont talk about Norjack I'd love to talk to him about early skydiving. I started jumping in 1968 and am fascinated by the sport's early history. Sheridan was one of its more colorful and unique participants. There is so much I'd like to ask him about including sport jumping in Saigion using RVNAF military helos. I'd love to know if he and other jumpers in Nam knew about the SAT 727 airdrops in Thailand.

Sheridan is pretty active on the Internet (but not so much lately). he may still be reading this forum. If so PM me Sherdian. Let's bury the hatchet and talk about old school skydiving if nothing else. I assure you I am not FBI or CIA and in fact am far on the other side of that spectrum. I don't think anyone is more anti-authoritarian than Sheridan, but I definitely share the trait.

377

If you knew that "Cooper" was recognized by the copilot when the note came to the cockpit, and a long convincing discussion pursued with Captain Scott to convince him to go along with the program, would you have a different opinion? If the copilot had trained Cooper and knew the exact jump point immediately, would it make more sense? If the delays to get the chutes by the FBI were a delaying tactic to get McCoy in a follow chopper, if the course was intentionally shifted west without detection by a 'seat of the pants' copilot to hide the dropzone, would things seem to fall in place? I'm not going to say these things are absolutely true, because it would get me in more hot water. But I can tell you absolutely that Peterson is no Cooper, because I knew Cooper and all of the Norjak boys.






sorry Bobby, nothing you say is truthful...end of story.


Everything I say is as truthful as I can make it. I have no reason to make these things up. I only have reason to explain what I know to be the real facts. Some believe the FBI really wants to solve this case. There may be a few agents that fall into that category, but I think there is a divide at about age 65. Those retired agents from Hoover's era seem to have a different take on how things should be done. Ref: Ruby Ridge, Norjak, Waco, The A Team, etc. Not everyone is contaminated. A few agents are straight arrows, like the two that arrested McCoy. They would not buy into the program and chose the stardom instead. If the FBI really wants to know what happened you could sure fool me. Jo too. There is nobody in the FBI that has the time or interest to spend ANY time on this case. Way too much time is spent fielding questions back to the retired agents and volunteers taking the job of cover-up. The reasons are multifaceted. One, there is so much contamination by FBI Agents the case could NEVER be tried. Two, Home Security takes priority and is overwhelming man hours. Three, the FBI has their own reason not to pursue this case which they refuse to tell me, understandably. I've asked repeatedly.

Anyway, what I present is what they want to keep quiet, but I'm apparently allowed to present it as a theory. If I claim it is fact, I get jumped on by everybody except the ones involved. Not one call. Strange.

[377 20]

99 wrote

Quote

Whatever the case - proving and winning a lawsuit claiming defamation against a dead person with whom one has no familial relationship, who has been made into a public figure, and who the plaintiff himself claims is likely a criminal that pulled off a terrorist act involving hijacking, bomb threat, and theft seems highly unlikely.

What's the quote - the only people who win are the lawyers

Amen. Besides Blevins wouldn't have standing to be the plaintiff. It would have to be KCs estate.

Litigation over he said she said stuff is a colossally expensive waste of time.

ANYBODY know what's up with Farflung? I sure hope he is OK.

The impressive museum exhibit and press coverage is great. Anything that keeps the story alive during the lifetimes of potential new witnesses is great. Somebody somewhere who is spurred by current news might connect crucial dots and correctly ID DBC. Might be a landlord, co worker, relative etc. If the legend dies these opportunities diminish.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

Finally BK and I agree on something: "this case could never be tried..."

They'd have to catch Cooper with some hot twenties. Anything less and a good defense lawyer could beat it. If the FBI really did lose the butts that was a fatal error to a successful prosecution.

I don't buy FBI coverup theories. My friend was an FBI agent at that time. He wasn't assigned to the case but he knew agents who were. They were highly motivated and making great efforts to solve it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

377

Finally BK and I agree on something: "this case could never be tried..."

They'd have to catch Cooper with some hot twenties. Anything less and a good defense lawyer could beat it. If the FBI really did lose the butts that was a fatal error to a successful prosecution.

I don't buy FBI coverup theories. My friend was an FBI agent at that time. He wasn't assigned to the case but he knew agents who were. They were highly motivated and making great efforts to solve it.

377

Quote

You and your friend could write a book. In fact, that's not a bad
idea. There are so many good books that could be written in
this area. In another 20 years so many principles will pass away
there wont be many left who have a first hand story to tell.

• Quote

[georger 197]

testxyz

Quote

Didn't Gray say in his book that the bundles were not all exact and that some had more than others to give the appearance that it was quickly put together? I read that somewhere, I think it was Grays book.

Here is what Grey wrote:

"To prepare for a robbery, Seattle First National has set aside a cache
of bills and each serial number of each bill has been recorded on
microfiche. They count out a hundred stacks of twenty-dollar bills,
each stack worth $2,000. The load must weigh twenty pounds, maybe more."

"Inside the airport, the bank officials from Seattle First National bank
lug the ransom into the Northwest flight operations office. The bank
officials cut open a seal of the leather satchel and hand FBI boss
J. Earl Milnes the Canvas bag inside, Its dimension are roughly a
foot by a foot, and eight or nine inches tall. Milnes looks at the
money. He does not count it. He hands the bag to Al Lee, Northwest's
director of flying."

"Al Lee scurries out of the detective's car and around the trunk. He
opens it. He grabs the canvas sack of money and waits for Tina
in the rain"

1) The above suggest the stacks were bundled with rubberbands equally by bank personnel who know how to count stacks of money. Even when rushed.

2) The serial numbers were already on microfiche (recorded by the bank). The FBI serial number list looks like it was reproduced from microfiche

3) The FBI Boss did a quick look-see at money, that was the extent
of the FBI dealings with the money.

Two of the three bundles found by Ingram had 2000 dollars with one bundle missing 10 bills that were either lost to the enviroment or removed by someone.

That is to the path of least resistance.

Quote

Two or three bands per bundle ... which will make R99 happy
(pivot-torque-force-direction.. fanning theory)! [

[georger 197]

smokin99

I hope this post doesn't violate any rules. If it does, let me know and I'll delete it.

Here's the deal as I see it and without bringing personalities into it.

KC is a public figure now - accused of threatening to blow up a plane with innocent people on it in the act of hijacking a plane in order to take money that did not belong to him, i.e., steal.
What a recent author wrote about this public figure is, I believe, an accurate representation of what the author that he cites wrote in an article from here http://nymag.com/news/features/39593/index4.html. Specifically paragraphs 2 and 3. Excerpts follow.....

.....The rumors she heard about him were true: He was taking in troubled kids and runaways. .......
....“He was an amusing character,” McWilliams says now of Kenny. He describes life in the house as “odd.” There were always other men around, men from the Army whom Kenny knew and had relationships with. “It was uncomfortable to me, because I’m not like that, but not everybody lived in that house at night,” McWilliams says.......When Kenny came back from Japan or Germany, there were always gifts: expensive food, big bottles of aged sake, ceramic dolls. Kenny never held back financially. They always ate out. “Any restaurant, really,” McWilliams says. “He’d always call it ‘my turn.’ He’d never accept that I pay for some of the things that he ate.” Kenny also helped Mac and other young men who lived with them learn how to save. Once, as a teenager, McWilliams says, he wanted to buy a car. Kenny opened up a bank account for him and matched every dollar he earned. ......

I did not equate what the current author wrote with molestation or pedophilia. I think for anyone to put those words in the current author's mouth is stretching; however, I would say that, perhaps, if I was the mother of one of these teenage runaways I might find Kenny's largess somewhat "troubling" and worth looking into.

.....On the other hand.....Like Sluggo has said in the past about cultural goggles - What happened in rural America 1970s might not have any bearing on what we would automatically think today. As that mother I might find that he was just a nice guy who envisioned himself as Old McDonald's YMCA and like to help troubled teenagers........Or not.

Whatever the case - proving and winning a lawsuit claiming defamation against a dead person with whom one has no familial relationship, who has been made into a public figure, and who the plaintiff himself claims is likely a criminal that pulled off a terrorist act involving hijacking, bomb threat, and theft seems highly unlikely.

What's the quote - the only people who win are the lawyers

Seriously, the forum was actually starting to be interesting again with some new posters and new stuff to discuss/debate, and now Quade has come on here twice in one day to slap our hands.


I also thought about the cultural goggles the other day when someone said that age 40 in the early 70s was considered over the hill. I tend to agree, though not in what a person was capable of or physical condition. Just their outlook and persona seemed older. Think about people you knew in their mid 40s in 1971. They did seem "older". Middle aged just seemed older then. Or maybe that was just my perspective because they were so much older than I was.
Point being though - we forget sometimes to look at things the way they were in the early 70s - not as they look in today's techno-savvy, politically correct, multi-tasking, media-bombarding, information-overloading world.

Quote

Yours are valid comments, I think.

My point is: who were the actual central players in this man's
life? The people closest to Kenny's heart and mind? Not the
people he dug a ditch for or attended ocassional social functions
with or had to travel to even see ... but the people he spent his
real time with outside of his employment. The people in the
"best" position to judge if Kenny could hijack an airplane, or
talked about it, or was planning to do something like that, etc

If Mac or some of these other people were to say: 'I never heard
him talk about soing anything like that', wouldnt that carry some
weight vs somebody else who knew Kenny on a more formal
basis? Or at the very least, wouldnt Mac's statement have to be
thrown in and given weight along with the statements of others?

If you havent identified and interviewed the central players in a
person's life, how can you make an evaluation of what the
person was doing, thinking, and ... might have done?

Then, can anyone put Kenny on the plane? That was Ckret's
challenge.

Now, if Kenny had worked in a titanium processing shop, was
6'2", had brown eyes and a dark complexion, etc ... then the
FBI would be all over this ... and we would be 10-deep going
over Kenny's actual network of associates with a fine toothed
comb.

One author has made the contention that the FBI did not
investigate NWA employees. I have no idea how true or untrue
that is. We have sat here three years and havn't even looked
into that important contention. Maybe 377 should ask his FBi
friend how true that assertion is, or if he knows anything about
it? I sure would would like more information about that. The
author used that 'contention' to pass Kenny through the filter
of, Kenny not being noticed. If at the same time KC was not the
selective 'loner' one author has described, but in fact had
several important relationships with other NWA employees ... and
they all escaped FBI questioning ... then could not one of those
NWA employees have been DB Cooper, or know something about
who might have been?

Kenny being gay might lead to another NWA employee who was
gay, who might have been DB Cooper? Someone whose father
worked in a metal processing factory?

The gay element is only a means to an investigative end. (Keep
in mind Cooper said specifically 'he did not have a grudge against
the airline'.)

[Robert99 37]

georger

Two or three bands per bundle ... which will make R99 happy
(pivot-torque-force-direction.. fanning theory)! [

Okay. Georger here are the facts again as shown in Tom Kaye's money analysis which is available on his web page.

The money in Tom Kaye's illustration was clearly constrained only on one end when found. It may have had two or more rubber bands on it when delivered to Cooper but all the bands either moved to one end of the bundle or else the other bands disappeared and only one band on one end of the bundle was holding it together when it was finally covered by sand.

Assuming that the Georger Hypothesis (that the bills were found flat side down) is correct, then the "fanning" of the bills took place while the bottom of the bundle was constrained by the sand and the top of the bundle was exposed to moving water. The "fanning" and removal of portions of the top bills in the bundle would require some time, perhaps two or three weeks. When the bundle was completely covered by sand, the "fanning" would stop. Then quite a bit of time passes, the Ingrams decide to dig a fire pit, and the rest is history.

Other things being equal, and they probably aren't, the end of the bundle with the rubber band still reasonably intact would be restrained by the sand first. Then the lighter end, with the bills free to move both vertically and horizontally, would incur the most water damage.

The water action that caused the "fanning" was counter-clockwise (as viewed from above) with respect to the rubber band end of the bundle.

If the bundle was moving downstream in the Columbia when it lodged in the sand (see the disclaimer at the bottom of this post), then the bundle would be oriented with the rubber band end pointing toward the river, generally speaking, and the loose end pointing toward the shore.

If the bundle was moving towards or into the Columbia from the shore when it lodged in the sand, then the rubber band end would be pointed upstream, general speaking again, and the loose end pointed downstream. In this case, the "fanning" action would require water moving into the river from the shore.

DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY!

Robert99

[377 20]

Georger wrote

Quote

One author has made the contention that the FBI did not
investigate NWA employees. I have no idea how true or untrue
that is. We have sat here three years and havn't even looked
into that important contention. Maybe 377 should ask his FBi
friend how true that assertion is, or if he knows anything about
it? I sure would would like more information about that.

He doesnt know Georger. He knows few details about the NORJACK case as he was assigned to something else pretty important at the time. He did know some of the major players though and said that the agency and agents were trying very hard to solve the case. He also said Himmelsbach was a smart guy and I agree after having spoke to H in person. His knowledge of aviation is deep and seasoned having been a military and civilian pilot.

Write a book about Cooper? No way. It is a money pit as I am sure Blevins and Gray will attest to. If I am going to give away money it will be to my favorite charities.

I bought Max Gunther's book about DBC and found it amusing. Tons of errors but a good read. I found his musing about Cooper's motivations to be interesting. In a nutshell he says Cooper did the crime to prove his courage and masculinity.

That could apply to any male jumper I guess. Those damned wingsuiters have made ordinary skydiving passe'. Nobody is impressed these days with freefalling from an airplane and landing on a DZ. Unless you skim granite and half your buddies have been shredded in wingsuits you are a wimp.

I'm just not brave enough to do become a BASE wingsuiter. I'll just have to reminisce about the glory days when plain old skydiving impressed whuffo women.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Robert99

***

Two or three bands per bundle ... which will make R99 happy
(pivot-torque-force-direction.. fanning theory)! [

Okay. Georger here are the facts again as shown in Tom Kaye's money analysis which is available on his web page.

The money in Tom Kaye's illustration was clearly constrained only on one end when found. It may have had two or more rubber bands on it when delivered to Cooper but all the bands either moved to one end of the bundle or else the other bands disappeared and only one band on one end of the bundle was holding it together when it was finally covered by sand.

Assuming that the Georger Hypothesis (that the bills were found flat side down) is correct, then the "fanning" of the bills took place while the bottom of the bundle was constrained by the sand and the top of the bundle was exposed to moving water. The "fanning" and removal of portions of the top bills in the bundle would require some time, perhaps two or three weeks. When the bundle was completely covered by sand, the "fanning" would stop. Then quite a bit of time passes, the Ingrams decide to dig a fire pit, and the rest is history.

Other things being equal, and they probably aren't, the end of the bundle with the rubber band still reasonably intact would be restrained by the sand first. Then the lighter end, with the bills free to move both vertically and horizontally, would incur the most water damage.

The water action that caused the "fanning" was counter-clockwise (as viewed from above) with respect to the rubber band end of the bundle.

If the bundle was moving downstream in the Columbia when it lodged in the sand (see the disclaimer at the bottom of this post), then the bundle would be oriented with the rubber band end pointing toward the river, generally speaking, and the loose end pointing toward the shore.

If the bundle was moving towards or into the Columbia from the shore when it lodged in the sand, then the rubber band end would be pointed upstream, general speaking again, and the loose end pointed downstream. In this case, the "fanning" action would require water moving into the river from the shore.

DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY!

Robert99

Quote

Will read and get back tonight ...
I knew this was coming.

[georger 197]

377

Georger wrote

Quote

One author has made the contention that the FBI did not
investigate NWA employees. I have no idea how true or untrue
that is. We have sat here three years and havn't even looked
into that important contention. Maybe 377 should ask his FBi
friend how true that assertion is, or if he knows anything about
it? I sure would would like more information about that.

He doesnt know Georger. He knows few details about the NORJACK case as he was assigned to something else pretty important at the time. He did know some of the major players though and said that the agency and agents were trying very hard to solve the case. He also said Himmelsbach was a smart guy and I agree after having spoke to H in person. His knowledge of aviation is deep and seasoned having been a military and civilian pilot.

Write a book about Cooper? No way. It is a money pit as I am sure Blevins and Gray will attest to. If I am going to give away money it will be to my favorite charities.

I bought Max Gunther's book about DBC and found it amusing. Tons of errors but a good read. I found his musing about Cooper's motivations to be interesting. In a nutshell he says Cooper did the crime to prove his courage and masculinity.

That could apply to any male jumper I guess. Those damned wingsuiters have made ordinary skydiving passe'. Nobody is impressed these days with freefalling from an airplane and landing on a DZ. Unless you skim granite and half your buddies have been shredded in wingsuits you are a wimp.

I'm just not brave enough to do become a BASE wingsuiter. I'll just have to reminisce about the glory days when plain old skydiving impressed whuffo women.

377

Quote

So ask your friend to use the 'network' (or allow you to) and
ask a few of his fellow retired agents who were on the case
exactly what the approach to NWA employees was, after the
jacking. And who was interviewed and who was not, by whom,
etc etc.

And the same for the investigation at Vancouver/Portland ?

There is a treasure trove of information there!

Later ...

You arent the only one with a Cooper bill, sir!

[377 20]

Quote

DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY!

Robert99

Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 37]

377

Quote

DISCLAIMER: NOTHING IN THE ABOVE SUPPORTS THE WASHOUGAL WASHDOWN THEORY IN ANY (BLEEPED) WAY!

Robert99

Speaking of the WW theory, remember when Jerry Thomas recounted launching test packets in the Washougal? I think he said the results supported the washdown theory.

377

JT also told me a few years ago that one of the chase aircraft had a visual sighting of the airliner as it crossed the Columbia River far, far on the east side of Portland. Unfortunately, the chase pilots apparently don't remember that.

All available information is that the chase pilots (the T-33 and the F-106s), plus Himmelsbach in his helicopter, headed for the southwest side of Portland. Even the so-called FBI flight path map (source actually unknown), gives a flight path on the west side of Portland for the airliner.

On the WW theory, in my personal opinion, Tom Kaye has made a conclusive case for the WW theory being completely wrong.

Robert99

[377 20]

Quote

So ask your friend to use the 'network' (or allow you to) and
ask a few of his fellow retired agents who were on the case
exactly what the approach to NWA employees was, after the
jacking. And who was interviewed and who was not, by whom,
etc etc.

I'd like to, but he thinks my Norjack obsession is kooky... and doesnt wish to be perceived as one of the kooks by asking colleagues about case details.

Perhaps Gray knows. He had unprecedented access to files.

Ckret's assertion that airline employees wouldnt commit these kinds of crimes was odd. He knows better.

Quote

There have been several instances of major aviation accidents involving pilot suicide in the past. In October 1999, a total of 217 people were killed when the Relief First Officer aboard EgyptAir Flight 990 deliberately caused the Boeing 767-366ER to crash into the Atlantic Ocean, about 100 kilometers (60 miles) south of Nantucket Island in Massachusetts.

And in December 1997, 104 people were killed when SilkAir Flight 185 crashed into the Musi River near Palembang, Indonesia. Although Indonesian authorities were unable to determine a cause, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined one of the pilots deliberately caused the Boeing 737-36N aircraft to crash.

source NYC Aviation website


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/former-airline-pilot-iainlawrence-jailed-for-life-for-killing-his-wife-by-deliberately-crashing-car-after-disabling-airbag-8674852.html


http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/17/us/some-crashes-classified-as-deliberate.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFuUuOjUjf4

http://abcnews.go.com/US/united-airlines-employee-girlfriend-allegedly-stole-stranded-luggage/story?id=19820516


377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[testxyz 0]

Quote

1) The above suggest the stacks were bundled with rubberbands equally by bank personnel who know how to count stacks of money. Even when rushed.

2) The serial numbers were already on microfiche (recorded by the bank). The FBI serial number list looks like it was reproduced from microfiche

3) The FBI Boss did a quick look-see at money, that was the extent
of the FBI dealings with the money.

Two of the three bundles found by Ingram had 2000 dollars with one bundle missing 10 bills that were either lost to the enviroment or removed by someone.

That is to the path of least resistance.

A little more information......

In February of 2008 the PCGS curreny people found 35 additional serial numbers within Ingram bundles.

"This process revealed 35 additional full serial numbers that are on the FBI’s 1971 complete list of notes given as ransom, but apparently were not recorded when the notes discovered by Mr. Ingram in 1980 subsequently were inventoried by investigators. We are pleased to provide the FBI with these ‘new’ numbers with the hope that any new evidence may provide useful leads in this case."

http://www.coinnews.net/2008/02/27/pcgs-currency-notifies-fbi-of-d-b-cooper-serial-numbers-3953/

A few months later in June of 2008 PCGS says "Ingram found approximately $5,800 of the $200,000 ransom given to the skyjacker" after the 35 additional serial numbers were discovered a few months earlier.

http://www.coinnews.net/2008/06/13/db-cooper-notes-make-37k-at-heritages-americana-memorabilia-auction/

So it seems unclear to the PCGS currency people if Ingram found exactly $5,800 dollars.

[ParrotheadVol 70]

testxyz

Quote

Didn't Gray say in his book that the bundles were not all exact and that some had more than others to give the appearance that it was quickly put together? I read that somewhere, I think it was Grays book.

Here is what Grey wrote:

"To prepare for a robbery, Seattle First National has set aside a cache
of bills and each serial number of each bill has been recorded on
microfiche. They count out a hundred stacks of twenty-dollar bills,
each stack worth $2,000. The load must weigh twenty pounds, maybe more."

"Inside the airport, the bank officials from Seattle First National bank
lug the ransom into the Northwest flight operations office. The bank
officials cut open a seal of the leather satchel and hand FBI boss
J. Earl Milnes the Canvas bag inside, Its dimension are roughly a
foot by a foot, and eight or nine inches tall. Milnes looks at the
money. He does not count it. He hands the bag to Al Lee, Northwest's
director of flying."

"Al Lee scurries out of the detective's car and around the trunk. He
opens it. He grabs the canvas sack of money and waits for Tina
in the rain"

1) The above suggest the stacks were bundled with rubberbands equally by bank personnel who know how to count stacks of money. Even when rushed.

2) The serial numbers were already on microfiche (recorded by the bank). The FBI serial number list looks like it was reproduced from microfiche

3) The FBI Boss did a quick look-see at money, that was the extent
of the FBI dealings with the money.

Two of the three bundles found by Ingram had 2000 dollars with one bundle missing 10 bills that were either lost to the enviroment or removed by someone.

That is to the path of least resistance.

I must respectfully disagree. If Carr said the bundles were not equal, I will take his word for it. Besides, to me, the path of least resistance is that Cooper bailed with the cash, and the bundles were untouched by human hands until Ingram found them.

"They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider

[377 20]

Quote

and the bundles were untouched by human hands until Ingram found them.

Thats the simplest explanation, but how did the bundles get to Tena Bar?

I cant reconcile that location with what I believe was the 727's flight path.

That money find drives me crazy. I just can't see it getting from the plane to that beach with no human intervention.

TK did a pretty careful review of the flight plan data and so did Sluggo.

The placard find seems to correlate with their conclusions about the fight path, but it's just one point and the placard has never been conclusively tied to that particular airplane... although its highly likely that it came from she NORJACK plane.

Everything was just fine until Brian messed things up with that money find.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[GreyCopGC148 0]

RobertMBlevins

***Here is an article on Tom Kaye that came out yesterday.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2013/08/19/2738107/hunting-db-cooper.html


Is anyone else having trouble getting on the forum at times? There have been several instances lately in which I can't get it to load up. But, I can go to any other site just fine. Just curious if everyone else was experiencing the same thing.

No trouble getting on, but I recently upgraded to 50mb internet and a new computer. Don't believe it. You don't actually GET 50 megs but it's better. I ran Speedtest and it was maybe 30/14. Liars.
About Kaye: I see he believes the money was never in the river, that it didn't wash down there naturally. He also believes the FBI's current rendition of the flight path is correct. He cites the placard as some proof of this. He thinks the titanium is a big clue. On that last one, I am not so sure. If they ever discover who owned that tie, they might also find the owner donated it to Goodwill or something. I've always wondered why Cooper was careful to retrieve his original note, but tossed the tie away so casually...almost as if he knew it couldn't be traced back to him. Still, it would be a big break perhaps if someone ever traces ownership.

Kaye also believes the skyjacker was probably Canadian. He should know better. I've been to BC and Alberta lots of times. Sometimes staying for months. You can tell easily when someone is from either of those places, rather than Washington State...eh? The FBI says 'no discernable accent' and probably from the Midwest.

Quote

'Let's get this show on the road, eh?'

EDIT: My personal opinion, whatever it's worth, is that the real skyjacker (whomever he was) did not write any of the notes that went to media.

You have to talk to everyday cops about this. You have to know the personalities of the people who bother to do such a thing. It's taunting, and Cooper in general doesn't strike me as the taunting type. He strikes me more as the 'I just want to get away with the money' type.

Cops and media will tell you that after a famous crime, people do weird stuff like writing in notes. Mostly they are attention-seekers who want to see that note published in the media. Or they are wacko and may be the actual perp. Scorpio is a good example, or the BTK killer. They both taunted police and media. Do you think Cooper's known behaviors indicate he would risk being caught by doing such a thing? My opinion is no, but mine is not the only opinion.

*Cooper Nut Disclaimer* - if you would like to appear on the video I'm shooting at and around the WSHM this Saturday, please email me with your warning at adventurebooksofseattleATgFrickinMailDotCom. Thank you.

Hi there, Paul Geivett here, I will be at the opening of the WSHM in Tacoma and will have copy's of all my evidence that were sent or hand delivered to the FBI in Seattle and PDX FBI.

I will have copy's of photos that appear in my first video and I will be willing to let any news reporter view the evidence in the same way as I presented it to Curtis Eng FBI Seattle Wa. they will know in 15 minutes or less the same as the FBI.

Photos will be given out for free no donation

DB Cooper into the Funnel of Darkness the movie starring Nicolas Cage, Jennifer Anniston and Woody Harrellson... a Jerry Bruckheimer film

Written by Paul Geivett

[testxyz 0]

Quote

I must respectfully disagree. If Carr said the bundles were not equal, I will take his word for it. Besides, to me, the path of least resistance is that Cooper bailed with the cash, and the bundles were untouched by human hands until Ingram found them.

Post number 844, April 1, 2008 from Ckret...

"It is my understanding the money was wraped in rubber bands, no paper bands. the money was put together in different bill counts so it looked as if it was put together in a hurry."

That is not the most definitive statement and it doesn't seem logical to me.

Cooper has a bomb on the plane and the bank employees purposely radomized the bundles thus making it hard for Cooper to quickly sample check the money count in a few bundles.

The path of least resistance is to bundle them evenly so Cooper won't potentially get upset.

[377 20]

Blevins wrote

Quote

No trouble getting on, but I recently upgraded to 50mb internet and a new computer. Don't believe it. You don't actually GET 50 megs but it's better. I ran Speedtest and it was maybe 30/14. Liars.

Show me an honest cable company anywhere. I dare you.

My real sustainable speed is about 60% of what they claim I am getting. It briefly flashes up to the advertised speed for about one second, which I am sure their lawyers advised them to do.

I need Snowmman to hack their server and up my speed.

Saw a photo of the Dash 80, Boeings prototype for the 707 jetliner. The test pilots are wearing chutes. One is clearly visible and has the unique chest strap configuration that identifies it as an NB 6 or NB 8. Boeing knew what rig was needed for a jet jump. Cooper did too.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[mrshutter45 21]

testxyz

Quote

I must respectfully disagree. If Carr said the bundles were not equal, I will take his word for it. Besides, to me, the path of least resistance is that Cooper bailed with the cash, and the bundles were untouched by human hands until Ingram found them.

Post number 844, April 1, 2008 from Ckret...

"It is my understanding the money was wraped in rubber bands, no paper bands. the money was put together in different bill counts so it looked as if it was put together in a hurry."

That is not the most definitive statement and it doesn't seem logical to me.

Cooper has a bomb on the plane and the bank employees purposely radomized the bundles thus making it hard for Cooper to quickly sample check the money count in a few bundles.

The path of least resistance is to bundle them evenly so Cooper won't potentially get upset.

I doubt Cooper counted all the money. you realize how long this would take? a couple years back I was paid in cash $10,000 for balance due. the lady paid in 20's. I forget how long it was, but it wasn't a couple minutes. probably 15-20. I would guess he fanned thru most of them looking for blanks.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI