georger 194 #42301 August 17, 2013 It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was!Quote Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). Dan Cooper. Hiram Cooper. DB Cooper. Maybell Cooper. McCoy-Cooper! Hijacker! They are all COOPERS! DUHHHHHHhhhhhhhh. You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42302 August 17, 2013 Quote I don't understand your attitude about writers. It was media and writers who originally put your story on the national wire. It has been writers AND film producers who mostly kept Cooper in the public eye. If you had incorporated these people better instead of rejecting them, perhaps they could have helped find some of the answers you seek. For example, it was Marisa Kagan and Peter Berg (formerly of History Channel) who discovered certain things on Geestman and Christiansen that even I was not aware of... I am talking about writers who HYPE things without doing the research - like yourself. I know you didn't see that one coming, but I don't have time to be nice - I have a mission I have to finish - but you did come here and try to get involved the right way and learn from those who knew the facts and had studied the case. In the 17 plus yrs I have been involved in this - to see the media make obvious mistakes regarding facts about the crime itself - screams of incompetence, but they have more to focus on than Cooper and the journalist usually do not even let us know they are here. Their here to gather facts or to see what is being said - not to take control and pretend they know more than the experts do. THis last guy is here to feed and to control - he even stated he wasn't going to read any prior posting. Well, what does that say about him? He didn't even try to cherry pick. He admits he is not going to read the thread. Obviously he thinks he can solve the crime without the research - I hardly think so! He started in by discrediting the individuals who did all of the research and those who have steadfastly tried to keep the garbage to a minimum in the thread. He is only cherry picking and it was obvious he has NO real interest in the CASE.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42303 August 17, 2013 skyjack71*** Jo, If Duane was out of your sight at Tena Bar, how do you know what he did there? Robert99 I don't KNOW what Duane did when he was out of my sight at Tena's bar. Jo, The simple sentence above answers the question. However, that sentence was buried in a two page post that covered everything from your daughter's high school prom, to where the restrooms were located at the Red Lion, and about two decades of your life with Duane. Please be concise in the future. Some people, including me, have a life that is not centered on this thread. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42304 August 17, 2013 For starters learn to use the quote bar correctly. Jo Stated: Quote My opinion of you is based on yrs of dealing with individuals trying to develope their own story - you are feeding on these guys. Georger Stated: Quote Yo... Jo, take a break! Cool off. And PLEASE dont screw up the page format with your madd typing ... JO Repies! I didn't screw up the page format - you have done that more times than I have! I am venting! Someone has to watch over you guys when you go too far out of site. You might climb a tree you can't get out of without a little help...the last thing this thread needs is another movie producer or writer! When they play with the FACTS - it is a dead give away. When they play with Words - that is another RED light. I have NOT read ONE thing this man has brought to the table - he is using the thread and the yrs some of you put into this. Many of you have invested not only your time, but your money to learn the acquire the knowledge you have on the subject. HIS guy just wants to USE your information and when it comes back - I PROMISE U this - you will not recognize it...and you will not be happy with the results. Georger have you not learned NEVER to trust a writer with certain information? Remember how PISSED you got when Gray used your real name in his book! Well, sweetie you have not seen anything until you find out what this guy is after...by then it will be too late. This man doesn's want answers or in put - he already has all the answers. His Mission? Disassemble and dispurse and dismiss! He is directing the thread - not contributing! Wait and See! Jo did NOT make the statement below: It was made by Charger and not Jo. Charger stated; Quote First, you accuse me of not contributing anything or bringing anything to he table, yet at the same time say I am trying to forward some agenda. Odd. I am very sorry my presence here threatens you and your story somehow, but I am not going anywhere. Jo States: Mr Charger you can start by conforming to using the Quote correctly or NO one will ever understand who said what. When you get thru doing your thing NO one KNOWS who said what. Go back and check the posting my post is referring to - you complete screwed up - that is why I am using a format now you would have to deliberatle screw up.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42305 August 17, 2013 testxyz I do not know who said what here, but I am reposting it for clarification. I believe it was you who asked this "Kaye's research demonstrated that the money had to have arrived at Tena Bar within a year. Did it end up on in the sand within a year of the hijacking? Or within a year of its discovery?" Then I came in with the post below: QuoteJo Stated: This is the wording I understood and what Kaye seemed to say - I interpreted to mean the money was only on the beach or deposited there within a yr of it being found. Too many of us are interpreting it to mean what WE think it means. Kaye came to the thread and made a post for clarification, but I do not know how to search for it. He left margins in that statement - and if I was in his position I would have done the same thing. I was at Tina's (Tena's ) bar in 1979 with Duane Weber. He went down to that beach by himself and out of my sight. I have repeatedly asked and never got an answer about there being a small building on the beach near the fence and just behind the edge of the house from my standing point. I had been told by Fazion in 2001 that there used to be a shed there - they stored equipment they used on the beach and I assumed with the boats. This shed was on the river side of the wire fence. We were there about 7 months before the money was found! Less than a yr before it was found. The key is were was the money before it was put on the beach. It was buried in WA or OR somewhere in the area along the Columbia River and Duane retrived it in 1979 and it was damaged - so he made several deposits along the river. Anyone finding old rotten tattered 20's on him - would have put him in prison. Actually it was a pretty good idea because then they authorities thought Cooper died in the Columbia. It was a pretty good idea. What else can you do with molded unspendable money? Duane drove fast and he drank a lot - so his risk of being pulled over were pretty high. He couldn't burn it with me there...and hell who knows what went thru his mind. He was always the "Crook" who ended up getting caught. Remember that in Treasure Isle in 1958 when asked his occupations - he said "Crook, I guess". Duane did some really dumb things! WHY none of us will ever really know! I just know he could be the sweetest lovingest guy on the earth, but then there was another side to him that was scary! He covered up his fear by doing stupid crazy things...some of which an old friend told me about. Duane Weber was a complex personality. How many sales trainers would get up in front of a group of agents he worked with when asked what their opinion was about the NEW restrictions on how the leads would be worked. Duane made history with the company with his actions and they were addressed yrs later when they presented him with the Manage of the Yr Award in St. Martin just as he was going out on disablility. I had never heard the story and asked later if it was true - it was true. Duane had gone to the front of the room where the Regional and others out of Seattle were sitting and leaned over and FARTED! He left the room! They got the idea - when he was retired on disability it was WITH THIS SAME COMPANY. He left them several time, but they ALWAYS took him back. Heaven only knows WHY! He did work hard and he made the production and everyone like him - OBVIOUSLY since the rehired him at least 3 times after he - FARTED in their face. Duane was CRAZY. He would do crazy things and without thinking about the consequences!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42306 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins *** It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Quote Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). Dan Cooper. Hiram Cooper. DB Cooper. Maybell Cooper. McCoy-Cooper! Hijacker! They are all COOPERS! DUHHHHHHhhhhhhhh. You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Is there anything at all that you officially 'approve of' that anyone posts? Just wondering... Quote HuH? What business is it of yours!? You are confused as usual. Stop with the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" scam. The point at stake with Jo is: (read carefully Blevins. You might get this confused..." Jo now claims she had never heard of DB Cooper before ... specifically before her and Duane's trip to WA, if that trip even occurred! Back in the thread we discussed Duane driving Jo passed McCoy's house and the issue was: was McCoy DB Cooper! Jo;'s forst documented ploy with Himmelsbach was that she thought Duane "knew who Cooper was". So quite obvious Jo had heard of DB Cooper before! Now she is claiming she never heard of a Dan Cooper ... or a DB Cooper .... ever! Or, since you are an expert on everything... why dont YOu tell the story? Huh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42307 August 17, 2013 Jo Replies: I never said Duane THREW anything in the river at Tena's bar. I said he buried it behind the house and on the beach behind the house. It is extremely important you understand the statement. Buried and behind the house and on the beachside of the old fence. Quote But yes you have - thousands of times! Its in the thread. Your whole gig for years was that Duane threw "a paper bag" into the Columbia from the parking lot near the Red Lyon Inn ... thus his bag winds up at Tina Bar ... thus the Cooper money is found. You cant keep up with your own fabrications! You call them "white lies", not "whole lies" ... remember? You also now claim you never heard of DB Cooper before! Specifically before the alleged trip to WA (you & Duane). Previously inthe thread however, you told us how Duane drove you by McCoy (DB Cooper's) house at Virginia Beach out of curiosity .... the very house where the FBI shot and killed McCoy/DB Cooper. This was years before any trip to WA with Duane. Then you told Himmelsbach in your very first phone call that Duane 'knew who Cooper was' ... not that Duane WAS Cooper ! So quite obviously from your own testimony you have known all along who "Cooper" was! We went around with this same game once before - remember? You finally claimed "I didnt listen to the news much!" We laughed. Your fabrications have come a full circle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42308 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins ********* It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Quote Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). Dan Cooper. Hiram Cooper. DB Cooper. Maybell Cooper. McCoy-Cooper! Hijacker! They are all COOPERS! DUHHHHHHhhhhhhhh. You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Is there anything at all that you officially 'approve of' that anyone posts? Just wondering... Quote HuH? What business is it of yours!? You are confused as usual. Stop with the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" scam. The point at stake with Jo is: (read carefully Blevins. You might get this confused..." Jo now claims she had never heard of DB Cooper before ... specifically before her and Duane's trip to WA, if that trip even occurred! Back in the thread we discussed Duane driving Jo passed McCoy's house and the issue was: was McCoy DB Cooper! Jo;'s forst documented ploy with Himmelsbach was that she thought Duane "knew who Cooper was". So quite obvious Jo had heard of DB Cooper before! Now she is claiming she never heard of a Dan Cooper ... or a DB Cooper .... ever! Or, since you are an expert on everything... why dont YOu tell the story? Huh? Anger Management Problem, LOL. I have to admit, you seem like the most frustrated person I have never met. Thank God for that. Quote Good nite pretender - the famous author and critic and book publisher in Seattle Washington who literally nobody in the book sales, publishing, or writing network has ever heard of before! So ... they had to look you up! "Oh! That guy!" Runs one of those self publishing outfits. Sells only on Amazon, I see. He sure doesn't register in the normal trade publishing network here. Let me ask (cccc) who has been here 30 years. Ok I think I have something now. CCCC says he gave a reading over at xyz once after he wrote that Cooper book. The reading was a complete flop, a real dud, laughable she says. He wont be invited back. No wait .... CCC has just corrected me. She doesn't think it was him who read but somebody from that Advetnure books in his place. Whatever! But I can assure you he's not part of mainstream here in Seattle by any stretch. ..." Am I addressing the same RobertMBlevins of self promoted Adventure Books in Seattle Washington, or are you some other guy? Famous writer-Editor, tv celebrity, friend of producers and FBI agents, ... the real-deal scholar and writer RobertMBlevins ? Or is this somebody else posting again tonight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42309 August 17, 2013 Jo Stated in a prior post: 1979 It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Georger Replies: Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Jo States: After we left Colorado in 1980 nothing was said about Cooper until we moved to VA. Beach in 1983. He pointed out where McCoy had died when he showed me how to find the mall. We rented/ then bought. In 1984/85 he came home one night crawling in the door - drunk as a skunk. He didn't talk about Cooper, but he rattled on about being the reason some one died. He copies something he did. I did not know he was talking about Cooper & McCoy. I had been a busy woman and I did NOT dwelled on conversation that were fleeting. It was just a drunk rambling and crying - that was the only time in our marriage I ever saw him cry and the only time I ever saw him that drunk. I thought maybe he had an accident with the car - but the car was OK. He acquired a book and he rarely read, but I DID not know it was about COOPER. I never got to read it. That was NORJAX. He told me it was about an old hijacking and not something I would be interested in. Later when I asked him if he had finished the book - he said one of the guys in the office had it. So I never got to read that book until AFTER I had CONTACTED the FBI in 1996. Mr. H sent me a copy in the mid to late fall of 96 - and only then did I get to read it or know what it was about. I thought the book was about Truck Hijacking. He didn't want me to read the book and he didn't want me to see the composite in it. He knew he had said some things in 1979 but he didn't know if I remembered them. I think he did - because he knew my recall was pretty damn good. Not anymore - I struggle now. 1. Mentions Cooper in 1979 in WA. "That where Cooper Walked out of the Woods". 2. Shows me a house in Va. Bch in 1983 (approx) - a man who Hijacked a plane...named McCoy. NO mention made of Cooper. 3. In 1985 approx gets very Drunk and talks about being responsible for a man dieing...because he tried to copy something he did. I didn't know he was talking about McCoy - he was very drunk. So Georger what are YOU referencing. So explain to me what you are talking about? Please - you lost me on that!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42310 August 17, 2013 skyjack71Jo Stated in a prior post: It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Georger Replies: Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Jo States: After we left Colorado in 1980 nothing was said about Cooper until we moved to VA. Beach in 1983. He pointed out where McCoy had died when he showed me how to find the mall. We rented/ then bought. In 1984/85 he came home one night crawling in the door - drunk as a skunk. He didn't talk about Cooper, but he rattled on about being the reason some one died. He copies something he did. I did not know he was talking about Cooper & McCoy. I had been a busy woman and I did NOT dwelled on conversation that were fleeting. It was just a drunk rambling and crying - that was the only time in our marriage I ever saw him cry and the only time I ever saw him that drunk. I thought maybe he had an accident with the car - but the car was OK. He acquired a book and he rarely read, but I DID not know it was about COOPER. I never got to read it. That was NORJAX. He told me it was about an old hijacking and not something I would be interested in. Later when I asked him if he had finished the book - he said one of the guys in the office had it. So I never got to read that book until AFTER I had CONTACTED the FBI in 1996. Mr. H sent me a copy in the mid to late fall of 96 - and only then did I get to read it or know what it was about. I thought the book was about Truck Hijacking. He didn't want me to read the book and he didn't want me to see the composite in it. He knew he had said some things in 1979 but he didn't know if I remembered them. I think he did - because he knew my recall was pretty damn good. Not anymore - I struggle now. 1. Mentions Cooper in 1979 in WA. "That where Cooper Walked out of the Woods". 2. Shows me a house in Va. Bch in 1983 (approx) - a man who Hijacked a plane...named McCoy. NO mention made of Cooper. 3. In 1985 approx gets very Drunk and talks about being responsible for a man dieing...because he tried to copy something he did. I didn't know he was talking about McCoy - he was very drunk. So Georger what are YOU referencing. So explain to me what you are talking about? Please - you lost me on that!Quote Well its quite simple. You have been claiming you had never heard of DB Cooper (or any Cooper) before such that you could tie anything Duane said to DB Cooper, or any Cooper ... that your mind was empty and innocent. Now just above you cite all over again the very references which show you had been exposed to "DB Cooper" and Duane had mentioned DB Cooper ... so you had been exposed to the name Cooper and the name DB Cooper ... so that when DAN Cooper supposedly is dropped ... you made no connection? I mean what you are claiming Jo, is that you were an innocent naive empty vessel on the one hand, but educated and fully exposed to references and the name "Cooper" and even "DB Cooper", on the other hand. How did it evolve from you and Duane driving by Richard McCoy's house where he was killed by the FBI, a real Cooper suspect, ... to Duane Weber of all people being D.B. Cooper. I mean thousands and thousands of people drove by McCoy's house. How come they aren't all D.B. Cooper too! ? How come all of those people's wives aren't claiming their husbands were DB Cooper too, and had confessions and evidence too? But, it is now firmly established you had heard the name Cooper before. That fairy tale is now gone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42311 August 17, 2013 Georger U are picking bones: I told U from the start I had read about Cooper in 1971 in the newspaper - it was on the 3rd page. World Affairs had the head lines. I did NOT know Duane Weber in 1971 - I was still married to the father of my children. I made NO Connection between Dan Cooper and D.B. Cooper. WHY? Understand the circumstances of when I first heard the name DAN COOPER. I had been in the hospital with Duane 24/7 for 2wks...going home only to shower and change clothes. I was not offered a bed or a comfortable chair - I spent those 2 wks sitting in a hard chair with my feet on Duane's bed. Dan Cooper meant ZERO to me - I didn't even get it when he started in about jumping out of a plane! Hell Georger I had just been told my husband would be dead in 5 days - but he lived for 11 more day. I was NOT grasping what he was say at all. I made calls to friends and relative - and one friend came by that next day. She asked what he was talking about and at that time he was on the thing about putting 164K in a bucket and he couldn't find the bucket. U are correct - I made NO connection between D.B.Cooper and Dan Cooper...until after he died. 1 yr and 2 months after he died. Had I not started dating I would not have known even then. Remember I had started to go out and had met a man - but decide the relationship was not for me. So I started to talk about Duane - that way he would not feel put down and just think I was not ready to move on. Instead of being put off - after I told him the things Duane said in the hospital - he was the one who told me I needed to look at D.B.Cooper. 2 Wks LATER before I went to Panama City I had to CALL him to ask what the name of the man was. I checked out the only book in the library about D.B.Cooper they had - it was a mostly fictional book, but a few pages in I am on the phone to the FBI. I made NO connection between Duane and McCoy - it was just an incident that happened to have happened in a town we move to. I don't know WHY Duane pointed out where McCoy died, but he did. I do not remember the details of the conversation. Since after 17 yrs my mind is now tainted by the things I read - so I am NOT clear on exactly how much he told me about McCoy. I am sure IF I went to my memos of 15 yrs ago - you would find variations - that is what contamination of evidence is all about....it can be verbal also. He did tell me a little about the man - but how much of it I have learned since then and what I knew then - I would NOT venture to state. No Fairy tales here Georger - but I think you are seeing little green men tonight.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42312 August 17, 2013 Guys I live in the south - we do not eat and drink Cooper here. Pull up the News Paper in Atlanta see how man articles you find on Cooper. We only got the wk end paper in those days. I was busy in 1971 supporting 2 girls and trying to move on with my life - a small town in Georgia. Skyjackings are hardly things the kids and it talked about. We had lessons to do and making all their clothes and mine. I still have the library book with all the notes in it. You know How I aquired the book don't you. I told the library I lost the book - probably left in int Panama City. So I wrote them a check for 25 dollars. The woman who felt the notes in the book were Webers - she is decease - at least there is NO listing for her and she did have some health problems. I have had the notes compared with the inventory records Duane did from the shop and other items he wroter - they are NOT the same. The mark on the map could be Webers. Of course It is highlighted all over the place by myself and Max. the man who wrote the book. With all of the media on Cossey one would think they would have some one contained by now. The young law enforcement they just do not get it. Not enough sense to pour water our of their shoes.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42313 August 17, 2013 "I told U from the start I had read about Cooper in 1971 in the newspaper - it was on the 3rd page. World Affairs had the head lines. I did NOT know Duane Weber in 1971 - I was still married to the father of my children." I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? you place yourself all over Washington. how did you guys get around. did you rent a car and drive all these miles? what airport did you arrive and leave from. if Duane mentioned that he could have been "the one on the ground" there must of been conversation about Cooper. you don't let things rest jo, not without answers. I can see you harping on him for days if he made such a statement. take a guess as to how many miles it is from the dock at the Red Lion and Tena Bar via river passage? do you think the paper bag was a life preserver causing it to remain afloat? every single one of you Cooper suspect tellers have one thing in common. a bunch of he said she said crap. I find all of these stories, LD, Weber and KC very hard to swallow. just like the smart guys (FBI) find as well."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42314 August 17, 2013 skyjack71 Guys I live in the south - we do not eat and drink Cooper here. Pull up the News Paper in Atlanta see how man articles you find on Cooper. We only got the wk end paper in those days. I was busy in 1971 supporting 2 girls and trying to move on with my life - a small town in Georgia. Skyjackings are hardly things the kids and it talked about. We had lessons to do and making all their clothes and mine. I still have the library book with all the notes in it. You know How I aquired the book don't you. I told the library I lost the book - probably left in int Panama City. So I wrote them a check for 25 dollars. The woman who felt the notes in the book were Webers - she is decease - at least there is NO listing for her and she did have some health problems. I have had the notes compared with the inventory records Duane did from the shop and other items he wroter - they are NOT the same. The mark on the map could be Webers. Of course It is highlighted all over the place by myself and Max. the man who wrote the book. With all of the media on Cossey one would think they would have some one contained by now. The young law enforcement they just do not get it. Not enough sense to pour water our of their shoes. In reference to not reading every post... No, I am not going back and reading nearly 2000 pages of this thread. Especially since it seems nearly 40% of it is you, Ms. Weber, ranting, raving, screaming at and insulting people while adding little to nothing as far as clues. Another 25% are other people screaming and insulting. So, no, I am not reading the whole thread. I do utilize the search option quite a bit though. I will not confirm nor deny who I am or what I do for a living, but I will say I am here to find the truth about this case, and be part of an exchange of ideas and clues. Now, it seems like I am not the only once confused by Kaye's assessment of the money. Was it put in/on the sand within a year of the hijacking or a year of Ingram finding it? Clarification is needed, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #42315 August 17, 2013 georger Well your neighbor fed you a bunch of Whoppers(@). Not one word of what you say your neighbor said is true - Go back and READ THE THREAD for the facts if you're interested. This is no longer open for discussion - by me at least. Instead GO REED THE THRED. It's all there and more. Merry Christmas! Oh! and see you at the Lazy-Z reunion in November. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lXdyD2Yzls Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42316 August 17, 2013 CCharger Now, it seems like I am not the only once confused by Kaye's assessment of the money. Was it put in/on the sand within a year of the hijacking or a year of Ingram finding it? Clarification is needed, no? Read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page where he clearly states that it was within one year of the skyjacking which was on November 24, 1971. That is, the money was covered by sand at Tena Bar before November 24, 1972. If you feel that there is an error in Kaye's analysis, then point it out with actual proof. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42317 August 17, 2013 I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42318 August 17, 2013 CChargerI do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42319 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevinsHmm. I did not notice Georger's comments regarding AB until just this morning, but after seeing them, I feel justified in addressing those comments. I don't like talking about AB in detail at Dropzone Georger, but you did bring it up. Georger says: Quote'Good nite pretender - the famous author and critic and book publisher in Seattle Washington who literally nobody in the book sales, publishing, or writing network has ever heard of before! So ... they had to look you up!' Robert replies: Well, we're not exactly Random House, Georger. AB is run out of two small offices in the upstairs of a condo. In the trade publishing biz, we're definitely small press category. However, we are a registered US trade publisher with our own ISBN prefix, and have our account with Bowkers. Since we release everything at the trade rate through Ingram (biggest distributor of titles on the planet) I guess that makes us just as legit as the big boys, only a lot smaller. Books are printed and shipped via Lightning Source, the printer for Ingram, and are made available in the US (Levigne, TN outlet), Europe, UK, Asia (Milton-Keynes facility near London) and through LSI's new outlet in Australia. We are not a 'self-publisher' and don't ship our own books unless by special order. We also have a SAN assigned to us by Bowker. Georger says: ***"Oh! That guy!" Runs one of those self publishing outfits. Sells only on Amazon, I see. He sure doesn't register in the normal trade publishing network here. Let me ask (cccc) who has been here 30 years. Ok I think I have something now. CCCC says he gave a reading over at xyz once after he wrote that Cooper book. The reading was a complete flop, a real dud, laughable she says. He wont be invited back. No wait .... CCC has just corrected me. She doesn't think it was him who read but somebody from that Advetnure books in his place. Whatever! But I can assure you he's not part of mainstream here in Seattle by any stretch. ..." Robert replies: The only place I ever did a reading on Blast was at the Auburn Avenue Theater ONCE, back in 2011 when I did the slideshows. No one else from AB has ever done a reading for the book elsewhere. Some time ago, I was invited to do one down in Graham near where Bruce Smith lives, but I declined. 'Mainstream' is a tricky term in the publishing biz. A lot of what separates mainstream from small presses is the marketing budget. No, we don't fly sales reps around the country and try to convince bookstore managers to stock AB titles. It is cost prohibitive. The upside of that is that we don't have to sell 50,000 copies initially simply to turn a profit on a new title, as they do. Most sales originate because bookstore managers order from the wholesale Ingram catalog, or jobbers list our titles at Amazon. ('also available from THESE sellers...' etc) From time to time I make local marketing and promotion efforts and try to keep some titles stocked in local Puget Sound area bookstores, but that's about it. We actually make more each year doing proofreading, editing, and book packaging for other authors than we do selling books. Georger:Quote 'Am I addressing the same RobertMBlevins of self promoted Adventure Books in Seattle Washington, or are you some other guy? Famous writer-Editor, tv celebrity, friend of producers and FBI agents, ... the real-deal scholar and writer RobertMBlevins ? Or is this somebody else posting again tonight?' Absolutely no one except me ever posts under my name here at Dropzone. No one else. Just me.Quote Now THAT wasn't THAT difficult was it! Sure beats riding 4 Clydesdale's abreast while holding heavy lawn chair over your head with your right hand, swimming the Puget Sound with your left arm, being Lost for 30 days in the wilderness of Wolf Valley, and pushing a broken down white mini van up a logging road with your ass, and doing promos for AB Books, Nat Geo, and Gayla Prociv Beauty Queen ! Not to mention Auburn Hooplah Days, Youtube Music recommendations, your columns on Newsvine, CNN, and Winkels forum ... Busy guy you are. Hell I get worn out just reading Dropzpone alone! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42320 August 17, 2013 Robert99***I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42321 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevinsGeorger: Quote'and Gayla Prociv Beauty Queen...' I thought you were going to stop picking on Gayla... She's prettier than you are, I'm sure. (Georger refers to the fact that Gayla is a former Miss Vista, California) Massive CORRECTION! YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT AND KEEPS BRINGING GAYLA PROCIV BEAUTY QUEEN UP! JUST AS YOU SHOW US PHOTOS OF YOUR RAISNG A HEAVY PIECE OF LAWN FURNITURE ABOVE YOU HEAD IN A SNOWSTORM WITH ONE HAND! WHAT YOUR USE OF GAYLA PROVCIV AND LAWNCHAIRS IN SNOW STORMS HAS TO DO WITH THIS THREAD - ONLY YOU KNOWS! The rest of us read and see this self advertising promo shit and take it as a wacko at work simply being an idiot! I only work here! PLEASE MOVE ON!!! ALLOW US TO TALK ABOUT COOPER!!! Screw you and Gayla Prociv and lawnchiairs etc etc etc etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42322 August 17, 2013 CChargerI do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification.Quote In a word, you aren't missing anthing... because there is nothing there to miss ... it is what it is ... no logical connective tissue or facts between Tom's rubber band tests and 'time of burial'. The two don't automatically connect at all, especially the way Tom lays this out. So, don't strain yourself looking for what is not there. Or, whatever it is Tom has failed to state or deliver. It literally is what it is: which is a failure to show a causal connection between rubber band deterioration (as a clock) and arrival/burial of the money at Tina Bar. The problem is NOT you. The problem is Tom's science and lack of explanation. Now, if Tom had said: 'we analysed fragments of the bands found on the Ingram money and found 40 neutrinos per mg3 loss compared to new rubber bands, and as we know neutrino loss in rubber bands has a documented loss rate of .0003 N-loss per year when rubber bands are left exposed to Uv and O2 at the surface of the Earth (in Salem WA) ... we thus conclude that the money and its bands were probably buried in somewhere near the surface of the Earth exposed to some level of UV and O2, in about the year -133,333.333 (BC). Those are our calculations. Our calculations have been peer reviewed. This places the burial of the Cooper money somewhere in the Eemian (also Sangamonian, Ipswichian, Mikulin, Valdivia, Riss-Würm) interglacial period which began about 130,000 years ago and ended about 3:00pm last Tuesday, by our calendar...' If Tom had said something like that, we would have something to work with. Unfortunately all we have is: rubber bands glaze over and die (break) within one year and that means the Cooper money was buried early, sometime in ... 133,333.333 (BC)! You aren't mising anything - there is nothing there to miss. Pending a further explanation by Tom, there is nothing there being missed because the causal connectives Tom might have shown are what is missing. It isn't quite at the same level as another propeller theory but it is not the readers job to supply the chain of factual connectives, that make a reasoned arguement. Tom may have facts he isn't presenting for some reason. However it is not the reader's job to supply missing facts that make a well-connected arguement. Maybe whoever wrote Tom's results up for his website is just a poor communicator? I don't know. But it is not the reader's job to have to guess in matters like this - My personal feeling is I don't like having to say these things. I can only try and describe and relate what I see or fail to see. Science is not supposed to be a mind reading exercise! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42323 August 17, 2013 georger******I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Even under the best of conditions, such as my temperature and humidity controlled closet, rubber bands have a finite lifetime and it is measured in the very low single digits, such as two or three years, and not in larger digits, such as seven or eight years. The very fact that one of the bundles of bills had been "torqued" verifies that the rubber band on that bundle was still pliable when it was buried by sand or it would not have been able to keep the bundle together. The older the rubber bands before they were placed into use, the shorter their useful life. Who knows if these bands were pristine or if they were previously used in the bank's operations? Tom Kaye gave an outer limit estimate of one year from new (he didn't specifically use that word as I recall but his tests were undoubtedly on new bands) to disintegration when exposed to mother nature in the brush. Based on my personal experience, Tom's estimate and test results are realistic. Various sources have stated that at least some of the rubber bands on the bundles that were found buried were still in place when found (this does NOT mean that they were still pliable or bearing loads) but disintegrated when touched. Rubber band time keeping technology may still be quite primitive, but it clearly indicates that the money arrived at Tena Bar at a time much closer to the date of the hijacking than the date it was found. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42324 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins Tom Kaye's presentation on the rubber bands is a bit confusing. I think the current entries at the CS website have been slightly edited from the original statements, but I wouldn't swear to it. Tom's basically saying that since the original rubber bands which were found with the money crumbled when they were touched...and that this condition takes a year or less to occur in nature...that this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Bands crumbled when touched - Ingram's say. This condition takes a year or less to occur - WRONG! That this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Corallary to the above: Milk found was in a cake and crumbled when touched. Milk sours in 2 hours at room temp. Conclusion: Milk found was 8 hours old - (Reality: we buried the milk in 1954! ) Point is: there is no relationship between "bands crumbled" and "bands break after one year" ! It's not a valid comparison- its eggplant vs. an elephant. Both biological but totally different animals! In the case of the bands, totally different "states" in rubber band chemistry and life! Tom has no data on how long it takes for bands to "crumble and dust off when touched". All Tom has is gross breakage after one year, he says, and that isn't even a universal fact! Tom actually had a better gross measurement, he chose not to mention for some reason. He estimated the bills had lost about 1/8th inch of their perimeters say per year. At that rate of loss the bills would be about 9 years old. Guess what! 1980 minus 1971 equals: 9 years. I dont know how valid that estimate was but at least it produced a ballpark result. The point is simple and obvious: you have to get deeper into rubber bands chemistry (left in nature) than 'bands break in one year', in order to use bands as a "clock" ... whatever any of that might or might not have to do with an independent event such as "burial". Maybe instead of "burial" the money was covered by Cooper's corpse and parachute for some years? Who knows! Clocks need to be valid clocks, of the thing you are trying to measure. Bands breaking and burial are not automatically linked at all. Any more than 'bands breaking'and 'he liked blondes' are linked. And fact is, I am only skimming the surface here. If you are going to measure burial vs non-burial don't pick 'bands break in less than one year' as your yardstick. You might as well pick the color of your neighbors car. There are other more well-defined indicators of burial vs non-burial, or a clock on burial vs. non- burial. This discussion is at an extremely elementary level! I hope you realise that? This is 3rd gade science. For example: nowhere in Tom's sceince is there even mention of temperature. Rubber band chemistry and temperature are vitally linked, just as exposure to UV and O2. For example, the melt transition phase of rubber bands at room temp (precursor to breakage) is about 69 degree F. Lacking that (say in a burial or in cold water) then the chemical process changes. From melt transition to crystalisation at 69F is one transitional clock. Lacking a steady application of 69F then the clock is altered - And the same applies to every artifact on earth. Paper. Glass. Human tissue. And the most amazing thing of all to me is: Tom Kaye knows all of this! "I know it when I see it" just does not work and is not sufficient in this situation. You have to get a little deeper than 'bands break in less than one year' and it has to be shown it has some causal connection to burial.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42325 August 17, 2013 Shutter said: "I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? " Jo Replies : I do not know what you find ODD about my keeping up with current news. We only got the Sunday paper and I read it from front to back. My mind back then was much better than today. It is how I aced Test. I could go to the page number in my mind and invision the Geometry or Physics answer. Now, I can't balance my check book. 1971 there was NOT a lot of TV and I had 2 children. I taught them to read as I was an avid reader and felt books were the door to education and intellect - NOT TV. I did well! Dates! Well, I have always been lousy on dates! Do you remember the exact location you were at and what you were doing in the last wk of Sept or the 1st wk of October 1979? I knew I was in WA, but I have not looked at a 1979 calendar. I can tell you what I was wearing on the first day of that trip on our stop in Salt Lake because I have a picture. I know what I wore the next day because it was supposed to cool down. I know where we spent that first night. Remember I had never been to WA in my life and this to me was an experience of a life time. When I traveled with my father - he would quiz us about the places during and after our summer vacation, The teachers usually asked us to write a sma;ll story about our summer experiences. I always had a great story to tell - because my father felt that travel opened the mind and he made sure we retained the memories of all of those trip. We Drove from Ft. Collin, CO to WA. I have even told what kind of car we had and the color. The only remark Duane made about Cooper was that ONE remark! "That's were Cooper walked out of the woods." Yes, I had knowledge of who D.B.Cooper was - just no details. My reply was "How would you know that" His reply was "Maybe I was the one on the ground". He never said one other word about Cooper on the entire trip. I think for a moment he forgot I was not the other woman he had been with for several yrs. Her memory she shared with the bottom of a bottle. Now I will answer your silly questions: We went to Tena's Bar and then drove to the Red Lion. Since I have now been back out there 2 times of course I can tell you how many miles - I have maps. If the trip in 2001 had been more organized and I had been more prepared this saga would be over. Silly why would I think it odd a paper bag would float. It was like an ice cream bag and rolled over at the top - sure - it floated for a period of time. He may even have secured it with a rubber band - but I did not see it before he threw it into the river...only in the car near his right foot. When he go into the car at Tena's bar is when he moved this package from his left to his right, because I asked what it was - he said "Just, trash and I'll get rid of it at the next stop". Well, why was it on the other side of the car and what was in it that he was careful to put it very very close to him. If it was Trash why didn't he just hand it to me and tell me to dump it when we made the next stop - we HAD a trash container in the CAR. THAT is why his calling this trash is ODD to use your word. What I have told is first hand and not second hand and none of it is fabricated. It is the same thing I have told for 17 yrs, but NO ONE CARES about the truth. The truth is not full of adventures. The truth is some what dull. Dumb excon pulls off the BIG ONE as reported by an occupant of Jefferson Prison. No one heard men - they were ex-cons. The FBI never researched the name provided if the ex-prisoners or current prisoner could remember the name. A lot of mismanagement was going on in that prison in 1971. Carr said he could not find the report from Jefferson. Himmeslbach swore agents went to Jefferson and some other prisons to follow leads. I remember my life. Ask my kids. How I could remember what each one of them was wearing and the trip in a Belaire at 105 miles per hour because on of them was severly injured in 1965. I turned my head and one of them kicked and broke glass on a terrazo floor almost severeing the toe of the youngest one. In my frantic to stop the blood flow when I got in the car had locked myself out. I broke the jalousy window to get back in. I passed thru a school zone way over the speed limit. This is when I picked up a highway patrolman. He came along side me and I was driving 105 miles and I kept pointing at the seat and the shaking my head and did NOT stop. The patrol man realize I had a problem and then he had to have gone 110 to pull ahead of me with sirens blasting. When we got to a major intersection he thought I was headed to the hospital, but I turned right toward Casselberry to my Drs OFF and carried my bloodied limp child into him. Had we have gone to the hospital my daughter would have bled out...that area did NOT have good service. The patrolman did double back and found my car infront of the Dr.s office and the nurses told them I had a severly injured child but she was going to ok. The patrol did NOT even bother to talk to me - no need. I suppose he knew I did what was best for my child and for the circumstances. What each one of them was wearing and the color of the seat covers - I can play that back in my mind like a video....Now, DO you understand my memory - it is visual. A moment that means something to me I can go back to. I think everyone remembers things that way. I just retained more than others do. It is not ODD at all - it is normal. Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 1697 1698 Next Page 1693 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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skyjack71 0 #42302 August 17, 2013 Quote I don't understand your attitude about writers. It was media and writers who originally put your story on the national wire. It has been writers AND film producers who mostly kept Cooper in the public eye. If you had incorporated these people better instead of rejecting them, perhaps they could have helped find some of the answers you seek. For example, it was Marisa Kagan and Peter Berg (formerly of History Channel) who discovered certain things on Geestman and Christiansen that even I was not aware of... I am talking about writers who HYPE things without doing the research - like yourself. I know you didn't see that one coming, but I don't have time to be nice - I have a mission I have to finish - but you did come here and try to get involved the right way and learn from those who knew the facts and had studied the case. In the 17 plus yrs I have been involved in this - to see the media make obvious mistakes regarding facts about the crime itself - screams of incompetence, but they have more to focus on than Cooper and the journalist usually do not even let us know they are here. Their here to gather facts or to see what is being said - not to take control and pretend they know more than the experts do. THis last guy is here to feed and to control - he even stated he wasn't going to read any prior posting. Well, what does that say about him? He didn't even try to cherry pick. He admits he is not going to read the thread. Obviously he thinks he can solve the crime without the research - I hardly think so! He started in by discrediting the individuals who did all of the research and those who have steadfastly tried to keep the garbage to a minimum in the thread. He is only cherry picking and it was obvious he has NO real interest in the CASE.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42303 August 17, 2013 skyjack71*** Jo, If Duane was out of your sight at Tena Bar, how do you know what he did there? Robert99 I don't KNOW what Duane did when he was out of my sight at Tena's bar. Jo, The simple sentence above answers the question. However, that sentence was buried in a two page post that covered everything from your daughter's high school prom, to where the restrooms were located at the Red Lion, and about two decades of your life with Duane. Please be concise in the future. Some people, including me, have a life that is not centered on this thread. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42304 August 17, 2013 For starters learn to use the quote bar correctly. Jo Stated: Quote My opinion of you is based on yrs of dealing with individuals trying to develope their own story - you are feeding on these guys. Georger Stated: Quote Yo... Jo, take a break! Cool off. And PLEASE dont screw up the page format with your madd typing ... JO Repies! I didn't screw up the page format - you have done that more times than I have! I am venting! Someone has to watch over you guys when you go too far out of site. You might climb a tree you can't get out of without a little help...the last thing this thread needs is another movie producer or writer! When they play with the FACTS - it is a dead give away. When they play with Words - that is another RED light. I have NOT read ONE thing this man has brought to the table - he is using the thread and the yrs some of you put into this. Many of you have invested not only your time, but your money to learn the acquire the knowledge you have on the subject. HIS guy just wants to USE your information and when it comes back - I PROMISE U this - you will not recognize it...and you will not be happy with the results. Georger have you not learned NEVER to trust a writer with certain information? Remember how PISSED you got when Gray used your real name in his book! Well, sweetie you have not seen anything until you find out what this guy is after...by then it will be too late. This man doesn's want answers or in put - he already has all the answers. His Mission? Disassemble and dispurse and dismiss! He is directing the thread - not contributing! Wait and See! Jo did NOT make the statement below: It was made by Charger and not Jo. Charger stated; Quote First, you accuse me of not contributing anything or bringing anything to he table, yet at the same time say I am trying to forward some agenda. Odd. I am very sorry my presence here threatens you and your story somehow, but I am not going anywhere. Jo States: Mr Charger you can start by conforming to using the Quote correctly or NO one will ever understand who said what. When you get thru doing your thing NO one KNOWS who said what. Go back and check the posting my post is referring to - you complete screwed up - that is why I am using a format now you would have to deliberatle screw up.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42305 August 17, 2013 testxyz I do not know who said what here, but I am reposting it for clarification. I believe it was you who asked this "Kaye's research demonstrated that the money had to have arrived at Tena Bar within a year. Did it end up on in the sand within a year of the hijacking? Or within a year of its discovery?" Then I came in with the post below: QuoteJo Stated: This is the wording I understood and what Kaye seemed to say - I interpreted to mean the money was only on the beach or deposited there within a yr of it being found. Too many of us are interpreting it to mean what WE think it means. Kaye came to the thread and made a post for clarification, but I do not know how to search for it. He left margins in that statement - and if I was in his position I would have done the same thing. I was at Tina's (Tena's ) bar in 1979 with Duane Weber. He went down to that beach by himself and out of my sight. I have repeatedly asked and never got an answer about there being a small building on the beach near the fence and just behind the edge of the house from my standing point. I had been told by Fazion in 2001 that there used to be a shed there - they stored equipment they used on the beach and I assumed with the boats. This shed was on the river side of the wire fence. We were there about 7 months before the money was found! Less than a yr before it was found. The key is were was the money before it was put on the beach. It was buried in WA or OR somewhere in the area along the Columbia River and Duane retrived it in 1979 and it was damaged - so he made several deposits along the river. Anyone finding old rotten tattered 20's on him - would have put him in prison. Actually it was a pretty good idea because then they authorities thought Cooper died in the Columbia. It was a pretty good idea. What else can you do with molded unspendable money? Duane drove fast and he drank a lot - so his risk of being pulled over were pretty high. He couldn't burn it with me there...and hell who knows what went thru his mind. He was always the "Crook" who ended up getting caught. Remember that in Treasure Isle in 1958 when asked his occupations - he said "Crook, I guess". Duane did some really dumb things! WHY none of us will ever really know! I just know he could be the sweetest lovingest guy on the earth, but then there was another side to him that was scary! He covered up his fear by doing stupid crazy things...some of which an old friend told me about. Duane Weber was a complex personality. How many sales trainers would get up in front of a group of agents he worked with when asked what their opinion was about the NEW restrictions on how the leads would be worked. Duane made history with the company with his actions and they were addressed yrs later when they presented him with the Manage of the Yr Award in St. Martin just as he was going out on disablility. I had never heard the story and asked later if it was true - it was true. Duane had gone to the front of the room where the Regional and others out of Seattle were sitting and leaned over and FARTED! He left the room! They got the idea - when he was retired on disability it was WITH THIS SAME COMPANY. He left them several time, but they ALWAYS took him back. Heaven only knows WHY! He did work hard and he made the production and everyone like him - OBVIOUSLY since the rehired him at least 3 times after he - FARTED in their face. Duane was CRAZY. He would do crazy things and without thinking about the consequences!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #42306 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins *** It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Quote Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). Dan Cooper. Hiram Cooper. DB Cooper. Maybell Cooper. McCoy-Cooper! Hijacker! They are all COOPERS! DUHHHHHHhhhhhhhh. You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Is there anything at all that you officially 'approve of' that anyone posts? Just wondering... Quote HuH? What business is it of yours!? You are confused as usual. Stop with the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" scam. The point at stake with Jo is: (read carefully Blevins. You might get this confused..." Jo now claims she had never heard of DB Cooper before ... specifically before her and Duane's trip to WA, if that trip even occurred! Back in the thread we discussed Duane driving Jo passed McCoy's house and the issue was: was McCoy DB Cooper! Jo;'s forst documented ploy with Himmelsbach was that she thought Duane "knew who Cooper was". So quite obvious Jo had heard of DB Cooper before! Now she is claiming she never heard of a Dan Cooper ... or a DB Cooper .... ever! Or, since you are an expert on everything... why dont YOu tell the story? Huh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #42307 August 17, 2013 Jo Replies: I never said Duane THREW anything in the river at Tena's bar. I said he buried it behind the house and on the beach behind the house. It is extremely important you understand the statement. Buried and behind the house and on the beachside of the old fence. Quote But yes you have - thousands of times! Its in the thread. Your whole gig for years was that Duane threw "a paper bag" into the Columbia from the parking lot near the Red Lyon Inn ... thus his bag winds up at Tina Bar ... thus the Cooper money is found. You cant keep up with your own fabrications! You call them "white lies", not "whole lies" ... remember? You also now claim you never heard of DB Cooper before! Specifically before the alleged trip to WA (you & Duane). Previously inthe thread however, you told us how Duane drove you by McCoy (DB Cooper's) house at Virginia Beach out of curiosity .... the very house where the FBI shot and killed McCoy/DB Cooper. This was years before any trip to WA with Duane. Then you told Himmelsbach in your very first phone call that Duane 'knew who Cooper was' ... not that Duane WAS Cooper ! So quite obviously from your own testimony you have known all along who "Cooper" was! We went around with this same game once before - remember? You finally claimed "I didnt listen to the news much!" We laughed. Your fabrications have come a full circle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42308 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins ********* It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Quote Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). Dan Cooper. Hiram Cooper. DB Cooper. Maybell Cooper. McCoy-Cooper! Hijacker! They are all COOPERS! DUHHHHHHhhhhhhhh. You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Is there anything at all that you officially 'approve of' that anyone posts? Just wondering... Quote HuH? What business is it of yours!? You are confused as usual. Stop with the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" scam. The point at stake with Jo is: (read carefully Blevins. You might get this confused..." Jo now claims she had never heard of DB Cooper before ... specifically before her and Duane's trip to WA, if that trip even occurred! Back in the thread we discussed Duane driving Jo passed McCoy's house and the issue was: was McCoy DB Cooper! Jo;'s forst documented ploy with Himmelsbach was that she thought Duane "knew who Cooper was". So quite obvious Jo had heard of DB Cooper before! Now she is claiming she never heard of a Dan Cooper ... or a DB Cooper .... ever! Or, since you are an expert on everything... why dont YOu tell the story? Huh? Anger Management Problem, LOL. I have to admit, you seem like the most frustrated person I have never met. Thank God for that. Quote Good nite pretender - the famous author and critic and book publisher in Seattle Washington who literally nobody in the book sales, publishing, or writing network has ever heard of before! So ... they had to look you up! "Oh! That guy!" Runs one of those self publishing outfits. Sells only on Amazon, I see. He sure doesn't register in the normal trade publishing network here. Let me ask (cccc) who has been here 30 years. Ok I think I have something now. CCCC says he gave a reading over at xyz once after he wrote that Cooper book. The reading was a complete flop, a real dud, laughable she says. He wont be invited back. No wait .... CCC has just corrected me. She doesn't think it was him who read but somebody from that Advetnure books in his place. Whatever! But I can assure you he's not part of mainstream here in Seattle by any stretch. ..." Am I addressing the same RobertMBlevins of self promoted Adventure Books in Seattle Washington, or are you some other guy? Famous writer-Editor, tv celebrity, friend of producers and FBI agents, ... the real-deal scholar and writer RobertMBlevins ? Or is this somebody else posting again tonight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42309 August 17, 2013 Jo Stated in a prior post: 1979 It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Georger Replies: Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Jo States: After we left Colorado in 1980 nothing was said about Cooper until we moved to VA. Beach in 1983. He pointed out where McCoy had died when he showed me how to find the mall. We rented/ then bought. In 1984/85 he came home one night crawling in the door - drunk as a skunk. He didn't talk about Cooper, but he rattled on about being the reason some one died. He copies something he did. I did not know he was talking about Cooper & McCoy. I had been a busy woman and I did NOT dwelled on conversation that were fleeting. It was just a drunk rambling and crying - that was the only time in our marriage I ever saw him cry and the only time I ever saw him that drunk. I thought maybe he had an accident with the car - but the car was OK. He acquired a book and he rarely read, but I DID not know it was about COOPER. I never got to read it. That was NORJAX. He told me it was about an old hijacking and not something I would be interested in. Later when I asked him if he had finished the book - he said one of the guys in the office had it. So I never got to read that book until AFTER I had CONTACTED the FBI in 1996. Mr. H sent me a copy in the mid to late fall of 96 - and only then did I get to read it or know what it was about. I thought the book was about Truck Hijacking. He didn't want me to read the book and he didn't want me to see the composite in it. He knew he had said some things in 1979 but he didn't know if I remembered them. I think he did - because he knew my recall was pretty damn good. Not anymore - I struggle now. 1. Mentions Cooper in 1979 in WA. "That where Cooper Walked out of the Woods". 2. Shows me a house in Va. Bch in 1983 (approx) - a man who Hijacked a plane...named McCoy. NO mention made of Cooper. 3. In 1985 approx gets very Drunk and talks about being responsible for a man dieing...because he tried to copy something he did. I didn't know he was talking about McCoy - he was very drunk. So Georger what are YOU referencing. So explain to me what you are talking about? Please - you lost me on that!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42310 August 17, 2013 skyjack71Jo Stated in a prior post: It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Georger Replies: Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Jo States: After we left Colorado in 1980 nothing was said about Cooper until we moved to VA. Beach in 1983. He pointed out where McCoy had died when he showed me how to find the mall. We rented/ then bought. In 1984/85 he came home one night crawling in the door - drunk as a skunk. He didn't talk about Cooper, but he rattled on about being the reason some one died. He copies something he did. I did not know he was talking about Cooper & McCoy. I had been a busy woman and I did NOT dwelled on conversation that were fleeting. It was just a drunk rambling and crying - that was the only time in our marriage I ever saw him cry and the only time I ever saw him that drunk. I thought maybe he had an accident with the car - but the car was OK. He acquired a book and he rarely read, but I DID not know it was about COOPER. I never got to read it. That was NORJAX. He told me it was about an old hijacking and not something I would be interested in. Later when I asked him if he had finished the book - he said one of the guys in the office had it. So I never got to read that book until AFTER I had CONTACTED the FBI in 1996. Mr. H sent me a copy in the mid to late fall of 96 - and only then did I get to read it or know what it was about. I thought the book was about Truck Hijacking. He didn't want me to read the book and he didn't want me to see the composite in it. He knew he had said some things in 1979 but he didn't know if I remembered them. I think he did - because he knew my recall was pretty damn good. Not anymore - I struggle now. 1. Mentions Cooper in 1979 in WA. "That where Cooper Walked out of the Woods". 2. Shows me a house in Va. Bch in 1983 (approx) - a man who Hijacked a plane...named McCoy. NO mention made of Cooper. 3. In 1985 approx gets very Drunk and talks about being responsible for a man dieing...because he tried to copy something he did. I didn't know he was talking about McCoy - he was very drunk. So Georger what are YOU referencing. So explain to me what you are talking about? Please - you lost me on that!Quote Well its quite simple. You have been claiming you had never heard of DB Cooper (or any Cooper) before such that you could tie anything Duane said to DB Cooper, or any Cooper ... that your mind was empty and innocent. Now just above you cite all over again the very references which show you had been exposed to "DB Cooper" and Duane had mentioned DB Cooper ... so you had been exposed to the name Cooper and the name DB Cooper ... so that when DAN Cooper supposedly is dropped ... you made no connection? I mean what you are claiming Jo, is that you were an innocent naive empty vessel on the one hand, but educated and fully exposed to references and the name "Cooper" and even "DB Cooper", on the other hand. How did it evolve from you and Duane driving by Richard McCoy's house where he was killed by the FBI, a real Cooper suspect, ... to Duane Weber of all people being D.B. Cooper. I mean thousands and thousands of people drove by McCoy's house. How come they aren't all D.B. Cooper too! ? How come all of those people's wives aren't claiming their husbands were DB Cooper too, and had confessions and evidence too? But, it is now firmly established you had heard the name Cooper before. That fairy tale is now gone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42311 August 17, 2013 Georger U are picking bones: I told U from the start I had read about Cooper in 1971 in the newspaper - it was on the 3rd page. World Affairs had the head lines. I did NOT know Duane Weber in 1971 - I was still married to the father of my children. I made NO Connection between Dan Cooper and D.B. Cooper. WHY? Understand the circumstances of when I first heard the name DAN COOPER. I had been in the hospital with Duane 24/7 for 2wks...going home only to shower and change clothes. I was not offered a bed or a comfortable chair - I spent those 2 wks sitting in a hard chair with my feet on Duane's bed. Dan Cooper meant ZERO to me - I didn't even get it when he started in about jumping out of a plane! Hell Georger I had just been told my husband would be dead in 5 days - but he lived for 11 more day. I was NOT grasping what he was say at all. I made calls to friends and relative - and one friend came by that next day. She asked what he was talking about and at that time he was on the thing about putting 164K in a bucket and he couldn't find the bucket. U are correct - I made NO connection between D.B.Cooper and Dan Cooper...until after he died. 1 yr and 2 months after he died. Had I not started dating I would not have known even then. Remember I had started to go out and had met a man - but decide the relationship was not for me. So I started to talk about Duane - that way he would not feel put down and just think I was not ready to move on. Instead of being put off - after I told him the things Duane said in the hospital - he was the one who told me I needed to look at D.B.Cooper. 2 Wks LATER before I went to Panama City I had to CALL him to ask what the name of the man was. I checked out the only book in the library about D.B.Cooper they had - it was a mostly fictional book, but a few pages in I am on the phone to the FBI. I made NO connection between Duane and McCoy - it was just an incident that happened to have happened in a town we move to. I don't know WHY Duane pointed out where McCoy died, but he did. I do not remember the details of the conversation. Since after 17 yrs my mind is now tainted by the things I read - so I am NOT clear on exactly how much he told me about McCoy. I am sure IF I went to my memos of 15 yrs ago - you would find variations - that is what contamination of evidence is all about....it can be verbal also. He did tell me a little about the man - but how much of it I have learned since then and what I knew then - I would NOT venture to state. No Fairy tales here Georger - but I think you are seeing little green men tonight.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42312 August 17, 2013 Guys I live in the south - we do not eat and drink Cooper here. Pull up the News Paper in Atlanta see how man articles you find on Cooper. We only got the wk end paper in those days. I was busy in 1971 supporting 2 girls and trying to move on with my life - a small town in Georgia. Skyjackings are hardly things the kids and it talked about. We had lessons to do and making all their clothes and mine. I still have the library book with all the notes in it. You know How I aquired the book don't you. I told the library I lost the book - probably left in int Panama City. So I wrote them a check for 25 dollars. The woman who felt the notes in the book were Webers - she is decease - at least there is NO listing for her and she did have some health problems. I have had the notes compared with the inventory records Duane did from the shop and other items he wroter - they are NOT the same. The mark on the map could be Webers. Of course It is highlighted all over the place by myself and Max. the man who wrote the book. With all of the media on Cossey one would think they would have some one contained by now. The young law enforcement they just do not get it. Not enough sense to pour water our of their shoes.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42313 August 17, 2013 "I told U from the start I had read about Cooper in 1971 in the newspaper - it was on the 3rd page. World Affairs had the head lines. I did NOT know Duane Weber in 1971 - I was still married to the father of my children." I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? you place yourself all over Washington. how did you guys get around. did you rent a car and drive all these miles? what airport did you arrive and leave from. if Duane mentioned that he could have been "the one on the ground" there must of been conversation about Cooper. you don't let things rest jo, not without answers. I can see you harping on him for days if he made such a statement. take a guess as to how many miles it is from the dock at the Red Lion and Tena Bar via river passage? do you think the paper bag was a life preserver causing it to remain afloat? every single one of you Cooper suspect tellers have one thing in common. a bunch of he said she said crap. I find all of these stories, LD, Weber and KC very hard to swallow. just like the smart guys (FBI) find as well."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42314 August 17, 2013 skyjack71 Guys I live in the south - we do not eat and drink Cooper here. Pull up the News Paper in Atlanta see how man articles you find on Cooper. We only got the wk end paper in those days. I was busy in 1971 supporting 2 girls and trying to move on with my life - a small town in Georgia. Skyjackings are hardly things the kids and it talked about. We had lessons to do and making all their clothes and mine. I still have the library book with all the notes in it. You know How I aquired the book don't you. I told the library I lost the book - probably left in int Panama City. So I wrote them a check for 25 dollars. The woman who felt the notes in the book were Webers - she is decease - at least there is NO listing for her and she did have some health problems. I have had the notes compared with the inventory records Duane did from the shop and other items he wroter - they are NOT the same. The mark on the map could be Webers. Of course It is highlighted all over the place by myself and Max. the man who wrote the book. With all of the media on Cossey one would think they would have some one contained by now. The young law enforcement they just do not get it. Not enough sense to pour water our of their shoes. In reference to not reading every post... No, I am not going back and reading nearly 2000 pages of this thread. Especially since it seems nearly 40% of it is you, Ms. Weber, ranting, raving, screaming at and insulting people while adding little to nothing as far as clues. Another 25% are other people screaming and insulting. So, no, I am not reading the whole thread. I do utilize the search option quite a bit though. I will not confirm nor deny who I am or what I do for a living, but I will say I am here to find the truth about this case, and be part of an exchange of ideas and clues. Now, it seems like I am not the only once confused by Kaye's assessment of the money. Was it put in/on the sand within a year of the hijacking or a year of Ingram finding it? Clarification is needed, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #42315 August 17, 2013 georger Well your neighbor fed you a bunch of Whoppers(@). Not one word of what you say your neighbor said is true - Go back and READ THE THREAD for the facts if you're interested. This is no longer open for discussion - by me at least. Instead GO REED THE THRED. It's all there and more. Merry Christmas! Oh! and see you at the Lazy-Z reunion in November. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lXdyD2Yzls Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42316 August 17, 2013 CCharger Now, it seems like I am not the only once confused by Kaye's assessment of the money. Was it put in/on the sand within a year of the hijacking or a year of Ingram finding it? Clarification is needed, no? Read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page where he clearly states that it was within one year of the skyjacking which was on November 24, 1971. That is, the money was covered by sand at Tena Bar before November 24, 1972. If you feel that there is an error in Kaye's analysis, then point it out with actual proof. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42317 August 17, 2013 I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42318 August 17, 2013 CChargerI do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42319 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevinsHmm. I did not notice Georger's comments regarding AB until just this morning, but after seeing them, I feel justified in addressing those comments. I don't like talking about AB in detail at Dropzone Georger, but you did bring it up. Georger says: Quote'Good nite pretender - the famous author and critic and book publisher in Seattle Washington who literally nobody in the book sales, publishing, or writing network has ever heard of before! So ... they had to look you up!' Robert replies: Well, we're not exactly Random House, Georger. AB is run out of two small offices in the upstairs of a condo. In the trade publishing biz, we're definitely small press category. However, we are a registered US trade publisher with our own ISBN prefix, and have our account with Bowkers. Since we release everything at the trade rate through Ingram (biggest distributor of titles on the planet) I guess that makes us just as legit as the big boys, only a lot smaller. Books are printed and shipped via Lightning Source, the printer for Ingram, and are made available in the US (Levigne, TN outlet), Europe, UK, Asia (Milton-Keynes facility near London) and through LSI's new outlet in Australia. We are not a 'self-publisher' and don't ship our own books unless by special order. We also have a SAN assigned to us by Bowker. Georger says: ***"Oh! That guy!" Runs one of those self publishing outfits. Sells only on Amazon, I see. He sure doesn't register in the normal trade publishing network here. Let me ask (cccc) who has been here 30 years. Ok I think I have something now. CCCC says he gave a reading over at xyz once after he wrote that Cooper book. The reading was a complete flop, a real dud, laughable she says. He wont be invited back. No wait .... CCC has just corrected me. She doesn't think it was him who read but somebody from that Advetnure books in his place. Whatever! But I can assure you he's not part of mainstream here in Seattle by any stretch. ..." Robert replies: The only place I ever did a reading on Blast was at the Auburn Avenue Theater ONCE, back in 2011 when I did the slideshows. No one else from AB has ever done a reading for the book elsewhere. Some time ago, I was invited to do one down in Graham near where Bruce Smith lives, but I declined. 'Mainstream' is a tricky term in the publishing biz. A lot of what separates mainstream from small presses is the marketing budget. No, we don't fly sales reps around the country and try to convince bookstore managers to stock AB titles. It is cost prohibitive. The upside of that is that we don't have to sell 50,000 copies initially simply to turn a profit on a new title, as they do. Most sales originate because bookstore managers order from the wholesale Ingram catalog, or jobbers list our titles at Amazon. ('also available from THESE sellers...' etc) From time to time I make local marketing and promotion efforts and try to keep some titles stocked in local Puget Sound area bookstores, but that's about it. We actually make more each year doing proofreading, editing, and book packaging for other authors than we do selling books. Georger:Quote 'Am I addressing the same RobertMBlevins of self promoted Adventure Books in Seattle Washington, or are you some other guy? Famous writer-Editor, tv celebrity, friend of producers and FBI agents, ... the real-deal scholar and writer RobertMBlevins ? Or is this somebody else posting again tonight?' Absolutely no one except me ever posts under my name here at Dropzone. No one else. Just me.Quote Now THAT wasn't THAT difficult was it! Sure beats riding 4 Clydesdale's abreast while holding heavy lawn chair over your head with your right hand, swimming the Puget Sound with your left arm, being Lost for 30 days in the wilderness of Wolf Valley, and pushing a broken down white mini van up a logging road with your ass, and doing promos for AB Books, Nat Geo, and Gayla Prociv Beauty Queen ! Not to mention Auburn Hooplah Days, Youtube Music recommendations, your columns on Newsvine, CNN, and Winkels forum ... Busy guy you are. Hell I get worn out just reading Dropzpone alone! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42320 August 17, 2013 Robert99***I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42321 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevinsGeorger: Quote'and Gayla Prociv Beauty Queen...' I thought you were going to stop picking on Gayla... She's prettier than you are, I'm sure. (Georger refers to the fact that Gayla is a former Miss Vista, California) Massive CORRECTION! YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT AND KEEPS BRINGING GAYLA PROCIV BEAUTY QUEEN UP! JUST AS YOU SHOW US PHOTOS OF YOUR RAISNG A HEAVY PIECE OF LAWN FURNITURE ABOVE YOU HEAD IN A SNOWSTORM WITH ONE HAND! WHAT YOUR USE OF GAYLA PROVCIV AND LAWNCHAIRS IN SNOW STORMS HAS TO DO WITH THIS THREAD - ONLY YOU KNOWS! The rest of us read and see this self advertising promo shit and take it as a wacko at work simply being an idiot! I only work here! PLEASE MOVE ON!!! ALLOW US TO TALK ABOUT COOPER!!! Screw you and Gayla Prociv and lawnchiairs etc etc etc etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42322 August 17, 2013 CChargerI do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification.Quote In a word, you aren't missing anthing... because there is nothing there to miss ... it is what it is ... no logical connective tissue or facts between Tom's rubber band tests and 'time of burial'. The two don't automatically connect at all, especially the way Tom lays this out. So, don't strain yourself looking for what is not there. Or, whatever it is Tom has failed to state or deliver. It literally is what it is: which is a failure to show a causal connection between rubber band deterioration (as a clock) and arrival/burial of the money at Tina Bar. The problem is NOT you. The problem is Tom's science and lack of explanation. Now, if Tom had said: 'we analysed fragments of the bands found on the Ingram money and found 40 neutrinos per mg3 loss compared to new rubber bands, and as we know neutrino loss in rubber bands has a documented loss rate of .0003 N-loss per year when rubber bands are left exposed to Uv and O2 at the surface of the Earth (in Salem WA) ... we thus conclude that the money and its bands were probably buried in somewhere near the surface of the Earth exposed to some level of UV and O2, in about the year -133,333.333 (BC). Those are our calculations. Our calculations have been peer reviewed. This places the burial of the Cooper money somewhere in the Eemian (also Sangamonian, Ipswichian, Mikulin, Valdivia, Riss-Würm) interglacial period which began about 130,000 years ago and ended about 3:00pm last Tuesday, by our calendar...' If Tom had said something like that, we would have something to work with. Unfortunately all we have is: rubber bands glaze over and die (break) within one year and that means the Cooper money was buried early, sometime in ... 133,333.333 (BC)! You aren't mising anything - there is nothing there to miss. Pending a further explanation by Tom, there is nothing there being missed because the causal connectives Tom might have shown are what is missing. It isn't quite at the same level as another propeller theory but it is not the readers job to supply the chain of factual connectives, that make a reasoned arguement. Tom may have facts he isn't presenting for some reason. However it is not the reader's job to supply missing facts that make a well-connected arguement. Maybe whoever wrote Tom's results up for his website is just a poor communicator? I don't know. But it is not the reader's job to have to guess in matters like this - My personal feeling is I don't like having to say these things. I can only try and describe and relate what I see or fail to see. Science is not supposed to be a mind reading exercise! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42323 August 17, 2013 georger******I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Even under the best of conditions, such as my temperature and humidity controlled closet, rubber bands have a finite lifetime and it is measured in the very low single digits, such as two or three years, and not in larger digits, such as seven or eight years. The very fact that one of the bundles of bills had been "torqued" verifies that the rubber band on that bundle was still pliable when it was buried by sand or it would not have been able to keep the bundle together. The older the rubber bands before they were placed into use, the shorter their useful life. Who knows if these bands were pristine or if they were previously used in the bank's operations? Tom Kaye gave an outer limit estimate of one year from new (he didn't specifically use that word as I recall but his tests were undoubtedly on new bands) to disintegration when exposed to mother nature in the brush. Based on my personal experience, Tom's estimate and test results are realistic. Various sources have stated that at least some of the rubber bands on the bundles that were found buried were still in place when found (this does NOT mean that they were still pliable or bearing loads) but disintegrated when touched. Rubber band time keeping technology may still be quite primitive, but it clearly indicates that the money arrived at Tena Bar at a time much closer to the date of the hijacking than the date it was found. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42324 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins Tom Kaye's presentation on the rubber bands is a bit confusing. I think the current entries at the CS website have been slightly edited from the original statements, but I wouldn't swear to it. Tom's basically saying that since the original rubber bands which were found with the money crumbled when they were touched...and that this condition takes a year or less to occur in nature...that this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Bands crumbled when touched - Ingram's say. This condition takes a year or less to occur - WRONG! That this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Corallary to the above: Milk found was in a cake and crumbled when touched. Milk sours in 2 hours at room temp. Conclusion: Milk found was 8 hours old - (Reality: we buried the milk in 1954! ) Point is: there is no relationship between "bands crumbled" and "bands break after one year" ! It's not a valid comparison- its eggplant vs. an elephant. Both biological but totally different animals! In the case of the bands, totally different "states" in rubber band chemistry and life! Tom has no data on how long it takes for bands to "crumble and dust off when touched". All Tom has is gross breakage after one year, he says, and that isn't even a universal fact! Tom actually had a better gross measurement, he chose not to mention for some reason. He estimated the bills had lost about 1/8th inch of their perimeters say per year. At that rate of loss the bills would be about 9 years old. Guess what! 1980 minus 1971 equals: 9 years. I dont know how valid that estimate was but at least it produced a ballpark result. The point is simple and obvious: you have to get deeper into rubber bands chemistry (left in nature) than 'bands break in one year', in order to use bands as a "clock" ... whatever any of that might or might not have to do with an independent event such as "burial". Maybe instead of "burial" the money was covered by Cooper's corpse and parachute for some years? Who knows! Clocks need to be valid clocks, of the thing you are trying to measure. Bands breaking and burial are not automatically linked at all. Any more than 'bands breaking'and 'he liked blondes' are linked. And fact is, I am only skimming the surface here. If you are going to measure burial vs non-burial don't pick 'bands break in less than one year' as your yardstick. You might as well pick the color of your neighbors car. There are other more well-defined indicators of burial vs non-burial, or a clock on burial vs. non- burial. This discussion is at an extremely elementary level! I hope you realise that? This is 3rd gade science. For example: nowhere in Tom's sceince is there even mention of temperature. Rubber band chemistry and temperature are vitally linked, just as exposure to UV and O2. For example, the melt transition phase of rubber bands at room temp (precursor to breakage) is about 69 degree F. Lacking that (say in a burial or in cold water) then the chemical process changes. From melt transition to crystalisation at 69F is one transitional clock. Lacking a steady application of 69F then the clock is altered - And the same applies to every artifact on earth. Paper. Glass. Human tissue. And the most amazing thing of all to me is: Tom Kaye knows all of this! "I know it when I see it" just does not work and is not sufficient in this situation. You have to get a little deeper than 'bands break in less than one year' and it has to be shown it has some causal connection to burial.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42325 August 17, 2013 Shutter said: "I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? " Jo Replies : I do not know what you find ODD about my keeping up with current news. We only got the Sunday paper and I read it from front to back. My mind back then was much better than today. It is how I aced Test. I could go to the page number in my mind and invision the Geometry or Physics answer. Now, I can't balance my check book. 1971 there was NOT a lot of TV and I had 2 children. I taught them to read as I was an avid reader and felt books were the door to education and intellect - NOT TV. I did well! Dates! Well, I have always been lousy on dates! Do you remember the exact location you were at and what you were doing in the last wk of Sept or the 1st wk of October 1979? I knew I was in WA, but I have not looked at a 1979 calendar. I can tell you what I was wearing on the first day of that trip on our stop in Salt Lake because I have a picture. I know what I wore the next day because it was supposed to cool down. I know where we spent that first night. Remember I had never been to WA in my life and this to me was an experience of a life time. When I traveled with my father - he would quiz us about the places during and after our summer vacation, The teachers usually asked us to write a sma;ll story about our summer experiences. I always had a great story to tell - because my father felt that travel opened the mind and he made sure we retained the memories of all of those trip. We Drove from Ft. Collin, CO to WA. I have even told what kind of car we had and the color. The only remark Duane made about Cooper was that ONE remark! "That's were Cooper walked out of the woods." Yes, I had knowledge of who D.B.Cooper was - just no details. My reply was "How would you know that" His reply was "Maybe I was the one on the ground". He never said one other word about Cooper on the entire trip. I think for a moment he forgot I was not the other woman he had been with for several yrs. Her memory she shared with the bottom of a bottle. Now I will answer your silly questions: We went to Tena's Bar and then drove to the Red Lion. Since I have now been back out there 2 times of course I can tell you how many miles - I have maps. If the trip in 2001 had been more organized and I had been more prepared this saga would be over. Silly why would I think it odd a paper bag would float. It was like an ice cream bag and rolled over at the top - sure - it floated for a period of time. He may even have secured it with a rubber band - but I did not see it before he threw it into the river...only in the car near his right foot. When he go into the car at Tena's bar is when he moved this package from his left to his right, because I asked what it was - he said "Just, trash and I'll get rid of it at the next stop". Well, why was it on the other side of the car and what was in it that he was careful to put it very very close to him. If it was Trash why didn't he just hand it to me and tell me to dump it when we made the next stop - we HAD a trash container in the CAR. THAT is why his calling this trash is ODD to use your word. What I have told is first hand and not second hand and none of it is fabricated. It is the same thing I have told for 17 yrs, but NO ONE CARES about the truth. The truth is not full of adventures. The truth is some what dull. Dumb excon pulls off the BIG ONE as reported by an occupant of Jefferson Prison. No one heard men - they were ex-cons. The FBI never researched the name provided if the ex-prisoners or current prisoner could remember the name. A lot of mismanagement was going on in that prison in 1971. Carr said he could not find the report from Jefferson. Himmeslbach swore agents went to Jefferson and some other prisons to follow leads. I remember my life. Ask my kids. How I could remember what each one of them was wearing and the trip in a Belaire at 105 miles per hour because on of them was severly injured in 1965. I turned my head and one of them kicked and broke glass on a terrazo floor almost severeing the toe of the youngest one. In my frantic to stop the blood flow when I got in the car had locked myself out. I broke the jalousy window to get back in. I passed thru a school zone way over the speed limit. This is when I picked up a highway patrolman. He came along side me and I was driving 105 miles and I kept pointing at the seat and the shaking my head and did NOT stop. The patrol man realize I had a problem and then he had to have gone 110 to pull ahead of me with sirens blasting. When we got to a major intersection he thought I was headed to the hospital, but I turned right toward Casselberry to my Drs OFF and carried my bloodied limp child into him. Had we have gone to the hospital my daughter would have bled out...that area did NOT have good service. The patrolman did double back and found my car infront of the Dr.s office and the nurses told them I had a severly injured child but she was going to ok. The patrol did NOT even bother to talk to me - no need. I suppose he knew I did what was best for my child and for the circumstances. What each one of them was wearing and the color of the seat covers - I can play that back in my mind like a video....Now, DO you understand my memory - it is visual. A moment that means something to me I can go back to. I think everyone remembers things that way. I just retained more than others do. It is not ODD at all - it is normal. Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 1697 1698 Next Page 1693 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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georger 194 #42308 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins ********* It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Quote Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). Dan Cooper. Hiram Cooper. DB Cooper. Maybell Cooper. McCoy-Cooper! Hijacker! They are all COOPERS! DUHHHHHHhhhhhhhh. You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Is there anything at all that you officially 'approve of' that anyone posts? Just wondering... Quote HuH? What business is it of yours!? You are confused as usual. Stop with the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" scam. The point at stake with Jo is: (read carefully Blevins. You might get this confused..." Jo now claims she had never heard of DB Cooper before ... specifically before her and Duane's trip to WA, if that trip even occurred! Back in the thread we discussed Duane driving Jo passed McCoy's house and the issue was: was McCoy DB Cooper! Jo;'s forst documented ploy with Himmelsbach was that she thought Duane "knew who Cooper was". So quite obvious Jo had heard of DB Cooper before! Now she is claiming she never heard of a Dan Cooper ... or a DB Cooper .... ever! Or, since you are an expert on everything... why dont YOu tell the story? Huh? Anger Management Problem, LOL. I have to admit, you seem like the most frustrated person I have never met. Thank God for that. Quote Good nite pretender - the famous author and critic and book publisher in Seattle Washington who literally nobody in the book sales, publishing, or writing network has ever heard of before! So ... they had to look you up! "Oh! That guy!" Runs one of those self publishing outfits. Sells only on Amazon, I see. He sure doesn't register in the normal trade publishing network here. Let me ask (cccc) who has been here 30 years. Ok I think I have something now. CCCC says he gave a reading over at xyz once after he wrote that Cooper book. The reading was a complete flop, a real dud, laughable she says. He wont be invited back. No wait .... CCC has just corrected me. She doesn't think it was him who read but somebody from that Advetnure books in his place. Whatever! But I can assure you he's not part of mainstream here in Seattle by any stretch. ..." Am I addressing the same RobertMBlevins of self promoted Adventure Books in Seattle Washington, or are you some other guy? Famous writer-Editor, tv celebrity, friend of producers and FBI agents, ... the real-deal scholar and writer RobertMBlevins ? Or is this somebody else posting again tonight? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42309 August 17, 2013 Jo Stated in a prior post: 1979 It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Georger Replies: Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Jo States: After we left Colorado in 1980 nothing was said about Cooper until we moved to VA. Beach in 1983. He pointed out where McCoy had died when he showed me how to find the mall. We rented/ then bought. In 1984/85 he came home one night crawling in the door - drunk as a skunk. He didn't talk about Cooper, but he rattled on about being the reason some one died. He copies something he did. I did not know he was talking about Cooper & McCoy. I had been a busy woman and I did NOT dwelled on conversation that were fleeting. It was just a drunk rambling and crying - that was the only time in our marriage I ever saw him cry and the only time I ever saw him that drunk. I thought maybe he had an accident with the car - but the car was OK. He acquired a book and he rarely read, but I DID not know it was about COOPER. I never got to read it. That was NORJAX. He told me it was about an old hijacking and not something I would be interested in. Later when I asked him if he had finished the book - he said one of the guys in the office had it. So I never got to read that book until AFTER I had CONTACTED the FBI in 1996. Mr. H sent me a copy in the mid to late fall of 96 - and only then did I get to read it or know what it was about. I thought the book was about Truck Hijacking. He didn't want me to read the book and he didn't want me to see the composite in it. He knew he had said some things in 1979 but he didn't know if I remembered them. I think he did - because he knew my recall was pretty damn good. Not anymore - I struggle now. 1. Mentions Cooper in 1979 in WA. "That where Cooper Walked out of the Woods". 2. Shows me a house in Va. Bch in 1983 (approx) - a man who Hijacked a plane...named McCoy. NO mention made of Cooper. 3. In 1985 approx gets very Drunk and talks about being responsible for a man dieing...because he tried to copy something he did. I didn't know he was talking about McCoy - he was very drunk. So Georger what are YOU referencing. So explain to me what you are talking about? Please - you lost me on that!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #42310 August 17, 2013 skyjack71Jo Stated in a prior post: It is what happened before and after and before....Too many unusual thing Duane said and did on that trip and after the money find and then nothing for another 15 yrs and then tell me he is DAN Cooper - like I was supposed to know who Dan Cooper was! Georger Replies: Well ... yes you were. Why are you smart one minute dumb the next? By your own admission back in the thread, you said Duane drove you by COOPER'S house (a number of times when you lived at Virginia Beach). You know a Cooper one minute then don't know a Cooper the next? What do you take us for? Suckers? Idiots? Forgetfull? Wage Earner Sheeple? Jo States: After we left Colorado in 1980 nothing was said about Cooper until we moved to VA. Beach in 1983. He pointed out where McCoy had died when he showed me how to find the mall. We rented/ then bought. In 1984/85 he came home one night crawling in the door - drunk as a skunk. He didn't talk about Cooper, but he rattled on about being the reason some one died. He copies something he did. I did not know he was talking about Cooper & McCoy. I had been a busy woman and I did NOT dwelled on conversation that were fleeting. It was just a drunk rambling and crying - that was the only time in our marriage I ever saw him cry and the only time I ever saw him that drunk. I thought maybe he had an accident with the car - but the car was OK. He acquired a book and he rarely read, but I DID not know it was about COOPER. I never got to read it. That was NORJAX. He told me it was about an old hijacking and not something I would be interested in. Later when I asked him if he had finished the book - he said one of the guys in the office had it. So I never got to read that book until AFTER I had CONTACTED the FBI in 1996. Mr. H sent me a copy in the mid to late fall of 96 - and only then did I get to read it or know what it was about. I thought the book was about Truck Hijacking. He didn't want me to read the book and he didn't want me to see the composite in it. He knew he had said some things in 1979 but he didn't know if I remembered them. I think he did - because he knew my recall was pretty damn good. Not anymore - I struggle now. 1. Mentions Cooper in 1979 in WA. "That where Cooper Walked out of the Woods". 2. Shows me a house in Va. Bch in 1983 (approx) - a man who Hijacked a plane...named McCoy. NO mention made of Cooper. 3. In 1985 approx gets very Drunk and talks about being responsible for a man dieing...because he tried to copy something he did. I didn't know he was talking about McCoy - he was very drunk. So Georger what are YOU referencing. So explain to me what you are talking about? Please - you lost me on that!Quote Well its quite simple. You have been claiming you had never heard of DB Cooper (or any Cooper) before such that you could tie anything Duane said to DB Cooper, or any Cooper ... that your mind was empty and innocent. Now just above you cite all over again the very references which show you had been exposed to "DB Cooper" and Duane had mentioned DB Cooper ... so you had been exposed to the name Cooper and the name DB Cooper ... so that when DAN Cooper supposedly is dropped ... you made no connection? I mean what you are claiming Jo, is that you were an innocent naive empty vessel on the one hand, but educated and fully exposed to references and the name "Cooper" and even "DB Cooper", on the other hand. How did it evolve from you and Duane driving by Richard McCoy's house where he was killed by the FBI, a real Cooper suspect, ... to Duane Weber of all people being D.B. Cooper. I mean thousands and thousands of people drove by McCoy's house. How come they aren't all D.B. Cooper too! ? How come all of those people's wives aren't claiming their husbands were DB Cooper too, and had confessions and evidence too? But, it is now firmly established you had heard the name Cooper before. That fairy tale is now gone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42311 August 17, 2013 Georger U are picking bones: I told U from the start I had read about Cooper in 1971 in the newspaper - it was on the 3rd page. World Affairs had the head lines. I did NOT know Duane Weber in 1971 - I was still married to the father of my children. I made NO Connection between Dan Cooper and D.B. Cooper. WHY? Understand the circumstances of when I first heard the name DAN COOPER. I had been in the hospital with Duane 24/7 for 2wks...going home only to shower and change clothes. I was not offered a bed or a comfortable chair - I spent those 2 wks sitting in a hard chair with my feet on Duane's bed. Dan Cooper meant ZERO to me - I didn't even get it when he started in about jumping out of a plane! Hell Georger I had just been told my husband would be dead in 5 days - but he lived for 11 more day. I was NOT grasping what he was say at all. I made calls to friends and relative - and one friend came by that next day. She asked what he was talking about and at that time he was on the thing about putting 164K in a bucket and he couldn't find the bucket. U are correct - I made NO connection between D.B.Cooper and Dan Cooper...until after he died. 1 yr and 2 months after he died. Had I not started dating I would not have known even then. Remember I had started to go out and had met a man - but decide the relationship was not for me. So I started to talk about Duane - that way he would not feel put down and just think I was not ready to move on. Instead of being put off - after I told him the things Duane said in the hospital - he was the one who told me I needed to look at D.B.Cooper. 2 Wks LATER before I went to Panama City I had to CALL him to ask what the name of the man was. I checked out the only book in the library about D.B.Cooper they had - it was a mostly fictional book, but a few pages in I am on the phone to the FBI. I made NO connection between Duane and McCoy - it was just an incident that happened to have happened in a town we move to. I don't know WHY Duane pointed out where McCoy died, but he did. I do not remember the details of the conversation. Since after 17 yrs my mind is now tainted by the things I read - so I am NOT clear on exactly how much he told me about McCoy. I am sure IF I went to my memos of 15 yrs ago - you would find variations - that is what contamination of evidence is all about....it can be verbal also. He did tell me a little about the man - but how much of it I have learned since then and what I knew then - I would NOT venture to state. No Fairy tales here Georger - but I think you are seeing little green men tonight.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42312 August 17, 2013 Guys I live in the south - we do not eat and drink Cooper here. Pull up the News Paper in Atlanta see how man articles you find on Cooper. We only got the wk end paper in those days. I was busy in 1971 supporting 2 girls and trying to move on with my life - a small town in Georgia. Skyjackings are hardly things the kids and it talked about. We had lessons to do and making all their clothes and mine. I still have the library book with all the notes in it. You know How I aquired the book don't you. I told the library I lost the book - probably left in int Panama City. So I wrote them a check for 25 dollars. The woman who felt the notes in the book were Webers - she is decease - at least there is NO listing for her and she did have some health problems. I have had the notes compared with the inventory records Duane did from the shop and other items he wroter - they are NOT the same. The mark on the map could be Webers. Of course It is highlighted all over the place by myself and Max. the man who wrote the book. With all of the media on Cossey one would think they would have some one contained by now. The young law enforcement they just do not get it. Not enough sense to pour water our of their shoes.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #42313 August 17, 2013 "I told U from the start I had read about Cooper in 1971 in the newspaper - it was on the 3rd page. World Affairs had the head lines. I did NOT know Duane Weber in 1971 - I was still married to the father of my children." I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? you place yourself all over Washington. how did you guys get around. did you rent a car and drive all these miles? what airport did you arrive and leave from. if Duane mentioned that he could have been "the one on the ground" there must of been conversation about Cooper. you don't let things rest jo, not without answers. I can see you harping on him for days if he made such a statement. take a guess as to how many miles it is from the dock at the Red Lion and Tena Bar via river passage? do you think the paper bag was a life preserver causing it to remain afloat? every single one of you Cooper suspect tellers have one thing in common. a bunch of he said she said crap. I find all of these stories, LD, Weber and KC very hard to swallow. just like the smart guys (FBI) find as well."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42314 August 17, 2013 skyjack71 Guys I live in the south - we do not eat and drink Cooper here. Pull up the News Paper in Atlanta see how man articles you find on Cooper. We only got the wk end paper in those days. I was busy in 1971 supporting 2 girls and trying to move on with my life - a small town in Georgia. Skyjackings are hardly things the kids and it talked about. We had lessons to do and making all their clothes and mine. I still have the library book with all the notes in it. You know How I aquired the book don't you. I told the library I lost the book - probably left in int Panama City. So I wrote them a check for 25 dollars. The woman who felt the notes in the book were Webers - she is decease - at least there is NO listing for her and she did have some health problems. I have had the notes compared with the inventory records Duane did from the shop and other items he wroter - they are NOT the same. The mark on the map could be Webers. Of course It is highlighted all over the place by myself and Max. the man who wrote the book. With all of the media on Cossey one would think they would have some one contained by now. The young law enforcement they just do not get it. Not enough sense to pour water our of their shoes. In reference to not reading every post... No, I am not going back and reading nearly 2000 pages of this thread. Especially since it seems nearly 40% of it is you, Ms. Weber, ranting, raving, screaming at and insulting people while adding little to nothing as far as clues. Another 25% are other people screaming and insulting. So, no, I am not reading the whole thread. I do utilize the search option quite a bit though. I will not confirm nor deny who I am or what I do for a living, but I will say I am here to find the truth about this case, and be part of an exchange of ideas and clues. Now, it seems like I am not the only once confused by Kaye's assessment of the money. Was it put in/on the sand within a year of the hijacking or a year of Ingram finding it? Clarification is needed, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #42315 August 17, 2013 georger Well your neighbor fed you a bunch of Whoppers(@). Not one word of what you say your neighbor said is true - Go back and READ THE THREAD for the facts if you're interested. This is no longer open for discussion - by me at least. Instead GO REED THE THRED. It's all there and more. Merry Christmas! Oh! and see you at the Lazy-Z reunion in November. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lXdyD2Yzls Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42316 August 17, 2013 CCharger Now, it seems like I am not the only once confused by Kaye's assessment of the money. Was it put in/on the sand within a year of the hijacking or a year of Ingram finding it? Clarification is needed, no? Read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page where he clearly states that it was within one year of the skyjacking which was on November 24, 1971. That is, the money was covered by sand at Tena Bar before November 24, 1972. If you feel that there is an error in Kaye's analysis, then point it out with actual proof. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CCharger 0 #42317 August 17, 2013 I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42318 August 17, 2013 CChargerI do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42319 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevinsHmm. I did not notice Georger's comments regarding AB until just this morning, but after seeing them, I feel justified in addressing those comments. I don't like talking about AB in detail at Dropzone Georger, but you did bring it up. Georger says: Quote'Good nite pretender - the famous author and critic and book publisher in Seattle Washington who literally nobody in the book sales, publishing, or writing network has ever heard of before! So ... they had to look you up!' Robert replies: Well, we're not exactly Random House, Georger. AB is run out of two small offices in the upstairs of a condo. In the trade publishing biz, we're definitely small press category. However, we are a registered US trade publisher with our own ISBN prefix, and have our account with Bowkers. Since we release everything at the trade rate through Ingram (biggest distributor of titles on the planet) I guess that makes us just as legit as the big boys, only a lot smaller. Books are printed and shipped via Lightning Source, the printer for Ingram, and are made available in the US (Levigne, TN outlet), Europe, UK, Asia (Milton-Keynes facility near London) and through LSI's new outlet in Australia. We are not a 'self-publisher' and don't ship our own books unless by special order. We also have a SAN assigned to us by Bowker. Georger says: ***"Oh! That guy!" Runs one of those self publishing outfits. Sells only on Amazon, I see. He sure doesn't register in the normal trade publishing network here. Let me ask (cccc) who has been here 30 years. Ok I think I have something now. CCCC says he gave a reading over at xyz once after he wrote that Cooper book. The reading was a complete flop, a real dud, laughable she says. He wont be invited back. No wait .... CCC has just corrected me. She doesn't think it was him who read but somebody from that Advetnure books in his place. Whatever! But I can assure you he's not part of mainstream here in Seattle by any stretch. ..." Robert replies: The only place I ever did a reading on Blast was at the Auburn Avenue Theater ONCE, back in 2011 when I did the slideshows. No one else from AB has ever done a reading for the book elsewhere. Some time ago, I was invited to do one down in Graham near where Bruce Smith lives, but I declined. 'Mainstream' is a tricky term in the publishing biz. A lot of what separates mainstream from small presses is the marketing budget. No, we don't fly sales reps around the country and try to convince bookstore managers to stock AB titles. It is cost prohibitive. The upside of that is that we don't have to sell 50,000 copies initially simply to turn a profit on a new title, as they do. Most sales originate because bookstore managers order from the wholesale Ingram catalog, or jobbers list our titles at Amazon. ('also available from THESE sellers...' etc) From time to time I make local marketing and promotion efforts and try to keep some titles stocked in local Puget Sound area bookstores, but that's about it. We actually make more each year doing proofreading, editing, and book packaging for other authors than we do selling books. Georger:Quote 'Am I addressing the same RobertMBlevins of self promoted Adventure Books in Seattle Washington, or are you some other guy? Famous writer-Editor, tv celebrity, friend of producers and FBI agents, ... the real-deal scholar and writer RobertMBlevins ? Or is this somebody else posting again tonight?' Absolutely no one except me ever posts under my name here at Dropzone. No one else. Just me.Quote Now THAT wasn't THAT difficult was it! Sure beats riding 4 Clydesdale's abreast while holding heavy lawn chair over your head with your right hand, swimming the Puget Sound with your left arm, being Lost for 30 days in the wilderness of Wolf Valley, and pushing a broken down white mini van up a logging road with your ass, and doing promos for AB Books, Nat Geo, and Gayla Prociv Beauty Queen ! Not to mention Auburn Hooplah Days, Youtube Music recommendations, your columns on Newsvine, CNN, and Winkels forum ... Busy guy you are. Hell I get worn out just reading Dropzpone alone! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42320 August 17, 2013 Robert99***I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42321 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevinsGeorger: Quote'and Gayla Prociv Beauty Queen...' I thought you were going to stop picking on Gayla... She's prettier than you are, I'm sure. (Georger refers to the fact that Gayla is a former Miss Vista, California) Massive CORRECTION! YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT AND KEEPS BRINGING GAYLA PROCIV BEAUTY QUEEN UP! JUST AS YOU SHOW US PHOTOS OF YOUR RAISNG A HEAVY PIECE OF LAWN FURNITURE ABOVE YOU HEAD IN A SNOWSTORM WITH ONE HAND! WHAT YOUR USE OF GAYLA PROVCIV AND LAWNCHAIRS IN SNOW STORMS HAS TO DO WITH THIS THREAD - ONLY YOU KNOWS! The rest of us read and see this self advertising promo shit and take it as a wacko at work simply being an idiot! I only work here! PLEASE MOVE ON!!! ALLOW US TO TALK ABOUT COOPER!!! Screw you and Gayla Prociv and lawnchiairs etc etc etc etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42322 August 17, 2013 CChargerI do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification.Quote In a word, you aren't missing anthing... because there is nothing there to miss ... it is what it is ... no logical connective tissue or facts between Tom's rubber band tests and 'time of burial'. The two don't automatically connect at all, especially the way Tom lays this out. So, don't strain yourself looking for what is not there. Or, whatever it is Tom has failed to state or deliver. It literally is what it is: which is a failure to show a causal connection between rubber band deterioration (as a clock) and arrival/burial of the money at Tina Bar. The problem is NOT you. The problem is Tom's science and lack of explanation. Now, if Tom had said: 'we analysed fragments of the bands found on the Ingram money and found 40 neutrinos per mg3 loss compared to new rubber bands, and as we know neutrino loss in rubber bands has a documented loss rate of .0003 N-loss per year when rubber bands are left exposed to Uv and O2 at the surface of the Earth (in Salem WA) ... we thus conclude that the money and its bands were probably buried in somewhere near the surface of the Earth exposed to some level of UV and O2, in about the year -133,333.333 (BC). Those are our calculations. Our calculations have been peer reviewed. This places the burial of the Cooper money somewhere in the Eemian (also Sangamonian, Ipswichian, Mikulin, Valdivia, Riss-Würm) interglacial period which began about 130,000 years ago and ended about 3:00pm last Tuesday, by our calendar...' If Tom had said something like that, we would have something to work with. Unfortunately all we have is: rubber bands glaze over and die (break) within one year and that means the Cooper money was buried early, sometime in ... 133,333.333 (BC)! You aren't mising anything - there is nothing there to miss. Pending a further explanation by Tom, there is nothing there being missed because the causal connectives Tom might have shown are what is missing. It isn't quite at the same level as another propeller theory but it is not the readers job to supply the chain of factual connectives, that make a reasoned arguement. Tom may have facts he isn't presenting for some reason. However it is not the reader's job to supply missing facts that make a well-connected arguement. Maybe whoever wrote Tom's results up for his website is just a poor communicator? I don't know. But it is not the reader's job to have to guess in matters like this - My personal feeling is I don't like having to say these things. I can only try and describe and relate what I see or fail to see. Science is not supposed to be a mind reading exercise! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42323 August 17, 2013 georger******I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Even under the best of conditions, such as my temperature and humidity controlled closet, rubber bands have a finite lifetime and it is measured in the very low single digits, such as two or three years, and not in larger digits, such as seven or eight years. The very fact that one of the bundles of bills had been "torqued" verifies that the rubber band on that bundle was still pliable when it was buried by sand or it would not have been able to keep the bundle together. The older the rubber bands before they were placed into use, the shorter their useful life. Who knows if these bands were pristine or if they were previously used in the bank's operations? Tom Kaye gave an outer limit estimate of one year from new (he didn't specifically use that word as I recall but his tests were undoubtedly on new bands) to disintegration when exposed to mother nature in the brush. Based on my personal experience, Tom's estimate and test results are realistic. Various sources have stated that at least some of the rubber bands on the bundles that were found buried were still in place when found (this does NOT mean that they were still pliable or bearing loads) but disintegrated when touched. Rubber band time keeping technology may still be quite primitive, but it clearly indicates that the money arrived at Tena Bar at a time much closer to the date of the hijacking than the date it was found. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42324 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins Tom Kaye's presentation on the rubber bands is a bit confusing. I think the current entries at the CS website have been slightly edited from the original statements, but I wouldn't swear to it. Tom's basically saying that since the original rubber bands which were found with the money crumbled when they were touched...and that this condition takes a year or less to occur in nature...that this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Bands crumbled when touched - Ingram's say. This condition takes a year or less to occur - WRONG! That this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Corallary to the above: Milk found was in a cake and crumbled when touched. Milk sours in 2 hours at room temp. Conclusion: Milk found was 8 hours old - (Reality: we buried the milk in 1954! ) Point is: there is no relationship between "bands crumbled" and "bands break after one year" ! It's not a valid comparison- its eggplant vs. an elephant. Both biological but totally different animals! In the case of the bands, totally different "states" in rubber band chemistry and life! Tom has no data on how long it takes for bands to "crumble and dust off when touched". All Tom has is gross breakage after one year, he says, and that isn't even a universal fact! Tom actually had a better gross measurement, he chose not to mention for some reason. He estimated the bills had lost about 1/8th inch of their perimeters say per year. At that rate of loss the bills would be about 9 years old. Guess what! 1980 minus 1971 equals: 9 years. I dont know how valid that estimate was but at least it produced a ballpark result. The point is simple and obvious: you have to get deeper into rubber bands chemistry (left in nature) than 'bands break in one year', in order to use bands as a "clock" ... whatever any of that might or might not have to do with an independent event such as "burial". Maybe instead of "burial" the money was covered by Cooper's corpse and parachute for some years? Who knows! Clocks need to be valid clocks, of the thing you are trying to measure. Bands breaking and burial are not automatically linked at all. Any more than 'bands breaking'and 'he liked blondes' are linked. And fact is, I am only skimming the surface here. If you are going to measure burial vs non-burial don't pick 'bands break in less than one year' as your yardstick. You might as well pick the color of your neighbors car. There are other more well-defined indicators of burial vs non-burial, or a clock on burial vs. non- burial. This discussion is at an extremely elementary level! I hope you realise that? This is 3rd gade science. For example: nowhere in Tom's sceince is there even mention of temperature. Rubber band chemistry and temperature are vitally linked, just as exposure to UV and O2. For example, the melt transition phase of rubber bands at room temp (precursor to breakage) is about 69 degree F. Lacking that (say in a burial or in cold water) then the chemical process changes. From melt transition to crystalisation at 69F is one transitional clock. Lacking a steady application of 69F then the clock is altered - And the same applies to every artifact on earth. Paper. Glass. Human tissue. And the most amazing thing of all to me is: Tom Kaye knows all of this! "I know it when I see it" just does not work and is not sufficient in this situation. You have to get a little deeper than 'bands break in less than one year' and it has to be shown it has some causal connection to burial.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42325 August 17, 2013 Shutter said: "I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? " Jo Replies : I do not know what you find ODD about my keeping up with current news. We only got the Sunday paper and I read it from front to back. My mind back then was much better than today. It is how I aced Test. I could go to the page number in my mind and invision the Geometry or Physics answer. Now, I can't balance my check book. 1971 there was NOT a lot of TV and I had 2 children. I taught them to read as I was an avid reader and felt books were the door to education and intellect - NOT TV. I did well! Dates! Well, I have always been lousy on dates! Do you remember the exact location you were at and what you were doing in the last wk of Sept or the 1st wk of October 1979? I knew I was in WA, but I have not looked at a 1979 calendar. I can tell you what I was wearing on the first day of that trip on our stop in Salt Lake because I have a picture. I know what I wore the next day because it was supposed to cool down. I know where we spent that first night. Remember I had never been to WA in my life and this to me was an experience of a life time. When I traveled with my father - he would quiz us about the places during and after our summer vacation, The teachers usually asked us to write a sma;ll story about our summer experiences. I always had a great story to tell - because my father felt that travel opened the mind and he made sure we retained the memories of all of those trip. We Drove from Ft. Collin, CO to WA. I have even told what kind of car we had and the color. The only remark Duane made about Cooper was that ONE remark! "That's were Cooper walked out of the woods." Yes, I had knowledge of who D.B.Cooper was - just no details. My reply was "How would you know that" His reply was "Maybe I was the one on the ground". He never said one other word about Cooper on the entire trip. I think for a moment he forgot I was not the other woman he had been with for several yrs. Her memory she shared with the bottom of a bottle. Now I will answer your silly questions: We went to Tena's Bar and then drove to the Red Lion. Since I have now been back out there 2 times of course I can tell you how many miles - I have maps. If the trip in 2001 had been more organized and I had been more prepared this saga would be over. Silly why would I think it odd a paper bag would float. It was like an ice cream bag and rolled over at the top - sure - it floated for a period of time. He may even have secured it with a rubber band - but I did not see it before he threw it into the river...only in the car near his right foot. When he go into the car at Tena's bar is when he moved this package from his left to his right, because I asked what it was - he said "Just, trash and I'll get rid of it at the next stop". Well, why was it on the other side of the car and what was in it that he was careful to put it very very close to him. If it was Trash why didn't he just hand it to me and tell me to dump it when we made the next stop - we HAD a trash container in the CAR. THAT is why his calling this trash is ODD to use your word. What I have told is first hand and not second hand and none of it is fabricated. It is the same thing I have told for 17 yrs, but NO ONE CARES about the truth. The truth is not full of adventures. The truth is some what dull. Dumb excon pulls off the BIG ONE as reported by an occupant of Jefferson Prison. No one heard men - they were ex-cons. The FBI never researched the name provided if the ex-prisoners or current prisoner could remember the name. A lot of mismanagement was going on in that prison in 1971. Carr said he could not find the report from Jefferson. Himmeslbach swore agents went to Jefferson and some other prisons to follow leads. I remember my life. Ask my kids. How I could remember what each one of them was wearing and the trip in a Belaire at 105 miles per hour because on of them was severly injured in 1965. I turned my head and one of them kicked and broke glass on a terrazo floor almost severeing the toe of the youngest one. In my frantic to stop the blood flow when I got in the car had locked myself out. I broke the jalousy window to get back in. I passed thru a school zone way over the speed limit. This is when I picked up a highway patrolman. He came along side me and I was driving 105 miles and I kept pointing at the seat and the shaking my head and did NOT stop. The patrol man realize I had a problem and then he had to have gone 110 to pull ahead of me with sirens blasting. When we got to a major intersection he thought I was headed to the hospital, but I turned right toward Casselberry to my Drs OFF and carried my bloodied limp child into him. Had we have gone to the hospital my daughter would have bled out...that area did NOT have good service. The patrolman did double back and found my car infront of the Dr.s office and the nurses told them I had a severly injured child but she was going to ok. The patrol did NOT even bother to talk to me - no need. I suppose he knew I did what was best for my child and for the circumstances. What each one of them was wearing and the color of the seat covers - I can play that back in my mind like a video....Now, DO you understand my memory - it is visual. A moment that means something to me I can go back to. I think everyone remembers things that way. I just retained more than others do. It is not ODD at all - it is normal. Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 1697 1698 Next Page 1693 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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skyjack71 0 #42311 August 17, 2013 Georger U are picking bones: I told U from the start I had read about Cooper in 1971 in the newspaper - it was on the 3rd page. World Affairs had the head lines. I did NOT know Duane Weber in 1971 - I was still married to the father of my children. I made NO Connection between Dan Cooper and D.B. Cooper. WHY? Understand the circumstances of when I first heard the name DAN COOPER. I had been in the hospital with Duane 24/7 for 2wks...going home only to shower and change clothes. I was not offered a bed or a comfortable chair - I spent those 2 wks sitting in a hard chair with my feet on Duane's bed. Dan Cooper meant ZERO to me - I didn't even get it when he started in about jumping out of a plane! Hell Georger I had just been told my husband would be dead in 5 days - but he lived for 11 more day. I was NOT grasping what he was say at all. I made calls to friends and relative - and one friend came by that next day. She asked what he was talking about and at that time he was on the thing about putting 164K in a bucket and he couldn't find the bucket. U are correct - I made NO connection between D.B.Cooper and Dan Cooper...until after he died. 1 yr and 2 months after he died. Had I not started dating I would not have known even then. Remember I had started to go out and had met a man - but decide the relationship was not for me. So I started to talk about Duane - that way he would not feel put down and just think I was not ready to move on. Instead of being put off - after I told him the things Duane said in the hospital - he was the one who told me I needed to look at D.B.Cooper. 2 Wks LATER before I went to Panama City I had to CALL him to ask what the name of the man was. I checked out the only book in the library about D.B.Cooper they had - it was a mostly fictional book, but a few pages in I am on the phone to the FBI. I made NO connection between Duane and McCoy - it was just an incident that happened to have happened in a town we move to. I don't know WHY Duane pointed out where McCoy died, but he did. I do not remember the details of the conversation. Since after 17 yrs my mind is now tainted by the things I read - so I am NOT clear on exactly how much he told me about McCoy. I am sure IF I went to my memos of 15 yrs ago - you would find variations - that is what contamination of evidence is all about....it can be verbal also. He did tell me a little about the man - but how much of it I have learned since then and what I knew then - I would NOT venture to state. No Fairy tales here Georger - but I think you are seeing little green men tonight.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42312 August 17, 2013 Guys I live in the south - we do not eat and drink Cooper here. Pull up the News Paper in Atlanta see how man articles you find on Cooper. We only got the wk end paper in those days. I was busy in 1971 supporting 2 girls and trying to move on with my life - a small town in Georgia. Skyjackings are hardly things the kids and it talked about. We had lessons to do and making all their clothes and mine. I still have the library book with all the notes in it. You know How I aquired the book don't you. I told the library I lost the book - probably left in int Panama City. So I wrote them a check for 25 dollars. The woman who felt the notes in the book were Webers - she is decease - at least there is NO listing for her and she did have some health problems. I have had the notes compared with the inventory records Duane did from the shop and other items he wroter - they are NOT the same. The mark on the map could be Webers. Of course It is highlighted all over the place by myself and Max. the man who wrote the book. With all of the media on Cossey one would think they would have some one contained by now. The young law enforcement they just do not get it. Not enough sense to pour water our of their shoes.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #42313 August 17, 2013 "I told U from the start I had read about Cooper in 1971 in the newspaper - it was on the 3rd page. World Affairs had the head lines. I did NOT know Duane Weber in 1971 - I was still married to the father of my children." I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? you place yourself all over Washington. how did you guys get around. did you rent a car and drive all these miles? what airport did you arrive and leave from. if Duane mentioned that he could have been "the one on the ground" there must of been conversation about Cooper. you don't let things rest jo, not without answers. I can see you harping on him for days if he made such a statement. take a guess as to how many miles it is from the dock at the Red Lion and Tena Bar via river passage? do you think the paper bag was a life preserver causing it to remain afloat? every single one of you Cooper suspect tellers have one thing in common. a bunch of he said she said crap. I find all of these stories, LD, Weber and KC very hard to swallow. just like the smart guys (FBI) find as well."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCharger 0 #42314 August 17, 2013 skyjack71 Guys I live in the south - we do not eat and drink Cooper here. Pull up the News Paper in Atlanta see how man articles you find on Cooper. We only got the wk end paper in those days. I was busy in 1971 supporting 2 girls and trying to move on with my life - a small town in Georgia. Skyjackings are hardly things the kids and it talked about. We had lessons to do and making all their clothes and mine. I still have the library book with all the notes in it. You know How I aquired the book don't you. I told the library I lost the book - probably left in int Panama City. So I wrote them a check for 25 dollars. The woman who felt the notes in the book were Webers - she is decease - at least there is NO listing for her and she did have some health problems. I have had the notes compared with the inventory records Duane did from the shop and other items he wroter - they are NOT the same. The mark on the map could be Webers. Of course It is highlighted all over the place by myself and Max. the man who wrote the book. With all of the media on Cossey one would think they would have some one contained by now. The young law enforcement they just do not get it. Not enough sense to pour water our of their shoes. In reference to not reading every post... No, I am not going back and reading nearly 2000 pages of this thread. Especially since it seems nearly 40% of it is you, Ms. Weber, ranting, raving, screaming at and insulting people while adding little to nothing as far as clues. Another 25% are other people screaming and insulting. So, no, I am not reading the whole thread. I do utilize the search option quite a bit though. I will not confirm nor deny who I am or what I do for a living, but I will say I am here to find the truth about this case, and be part of an exchange of ideas and clues. Now, it seems like I am not the only once confused by Kaye's assessment of the money. Was it put in/on the sand within a year of the hijacking or a year of Ingram finding it? Clarification is needed, no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #42315 August 17, 2013 georger Well your neighbor fed you a bunch of Whoppers(@). Not one word of what you say your neighbor said is true - Go back and READ THE THREAD for the facts if you're interested. This is no longer open for discussion - by me at least. Instead GO REED THE THRED. It's all there and more. Merry Christmas! Oh! and see you at the Lazy-Z reunion in November. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lXdyD2Yzls Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42316 August 17, 2013 CCharger Now, it seems like I am not the only once confused by Kaye's assessment of the money. Was it put in/on the sand within a year of the hijacking or a year of Ingram finding it? Clarification is needed, no? Read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page where he clearly states that it was within one year of the skyjacking which was on November 24, 1971. That is, the money was covered by sand at Tena Bar before November 24, 1972. If you feel that there is an error in Kaye's analysis, then point it out with actual proof. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CCharger 0 #42317 August 17, 2013 I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #42318 August 17, 2013 CChargerI do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #42319 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevinsHmm. I did not notice Georger's comments regarding AB until just this morning, but after seeing them, I feel justified in addressing those comments. I don't like talking about AB in detail at Dropzone Georger, but you did bring it up. Georger says: Quote'Good nite pretender - the famous author and critic and book publisher in Seattle Washington who literally nobody in the book sales, publishing, or writing network has ever heard of before! So ... they had to look you up!' Robert replies: Well, we're not exactly Random House, Georger. AB is run out of two small offices in the upstairs of a condo. In the trade publishing biz, we're definitely small press category. However, we are a registered US trade publisher with our own ISBN prefix, and have our account with Bowkers. Since we release everything at the trade rate through Ingram (biggest distributor of titles on the planet) I guess that makes us just as legit as the big boys, only a lot smaller. Books are printed and shipped via Lightning Source, the printer for Ingram, and are made available in the US (Levigne, TN outlet), Europe, UK, Asia (Milton-Keynes facility near London) and through LSI's new outlet in Australia. We are not a 'self-publisher' and don't ship our own books unless by special order. We also have a SAN assigned to us by Bowker. Georger says: ***"Oh! That guy!" Runs one of those self publishing outfits. Sells only on Amazon, I see. He sure doesn't register in the normal trade publishing network here. Let me ask (cccc) who has been here 30 years. Ok I think I have something now. CCCC says he gave a reading over at xyz once after he wrote that Cooper book. The reading was a complete flop, a real dud, laughable she says. He wont be invited back. No wait .... CCC has just corrected me. She doesn't think it was him who read but somebody from that Advetnure books in his place. Whatever! But I can assure you he's not part of mainstream here in Seattle by any stretch. ..." Robert replies: The only place I ever did a reading on Blast was at the Auburn Avenue Theater ONCE, back in 2011 when I did the slideshows. No one else from AB has ever done a reading for the book elsewhere. Some time ago, I was invited to do one down in Graham near where Bruce Smith lives, but I declined. 'Mainstream' is a tricky term in the publishing biz. A lot of what separates mainstream from small presses is the marketing budget. No, we don't fly sales reps around the country and try to convince bookstore managers to stock AB titles. It is cost prohibitive. The upside of that is that we don't have to sell 50,000 copies initially simply to turn a profit on a new title, as they do. Most sales originate because bookstore managers order from the wholesale Ingram catalog, or jobbers list our titles at Amazon. ('also available from THESE sellers...' etc) From time to time I make local marketing and promotion efforts and try to keep some titles stocked in local Puget Sound area bookstores, but that's about it. We actually make more each year doing proofreading, editing, and book packaging for other authors than we do selling books. Georger:Quote 'Am I addressing the same RobertMBlevins of self promoted Adventure Books in Seattle Washington, or are you some other guy? Famous writer-Editor, tv celebrity, friend of producers and FBI agents, ... the real-deal scholar and writer RobertMBlevins ? Or is this somebody else posting again tonight?' Absolutely no one except me ever posts under my name here at Dropzone. No one else. Just me.Quote Now THAT wasn't THAT difficult was it! Sure beats riding 4 Clydesdale's abreast while holding heavy lawn chair over your head with your right hand, swimming the Puget Sound with your left arm, being Lost for 30 days in the wilderness of Wolf Valley, and pushing a broken down white mini van up a logging road with your ass, and doing promos for AB Books, Nat Geo, and Gayla Prociv Beauty Queen ! Not to mention Auburn Hooplah Days, Youtube Music recommendations, your columns on Newsvine, CNN, and Winkels forum ... Busy guy you are. Hell I get worn out just reading Dropzpone alone! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42320 August 17, 2013 Robert99***I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42321 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevinsGeorger: Quote'and Gayla Prociv Beauty Queen...' I thought you were going to stop picking on Gayla... She's prettier than you are, I'm sure. (Georger refers to the fact that Gayla is a former Miss Vista, California) Massive CORRECTION! YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT AND KEEPS BRINGING GAYLA PROCIV BEAUTY QUEEN UP! JUST AS YOU SHOW US PHOTOS OF YOUR RAISNG A HEAVY PIECE OF LAWN FURNITURE ABOVE YOU HEAD IN A SNOWSTORM WITH ONE HAND! WHAT YOUR USE OF GAYLA PROVCIV AND LAWNCHAIRS IN SNOW STORMS HAS TO DO WITH THIS THREAD - ONLY YOU KNOWS! The rest of us read and see this self advertising promo shit and take it as a wacko at work simply being an idiot! I only work here! PLEASE MOVE ON!!! ALLOW US TO TALK ABOUT COOPER!!! Screw you and Gayla Prociv and lawnchiairs etc etc etc etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42322 August 17, 2013 CChargerI do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification.Quote In a word, you aren't missing anthing... because there is nothing there to miss ... it is what it is ... no logical connective tissue or facts between Tom's rubber band tests and 'time of burial'. The two don't automatically connect at all, especially the way Tom lays this out. So, don't strain yourself looking for what is not there. Or, whatever it is Tom has failed to state or deliver. It literally is what it is: which is a failure to show a causal connection between rubber band deterioration (as a clock) and arrival/burial of the money at Tina Bar. The problem is NOT you. The problem is Tom's science and lack of explanation. Now, if Tom had said: 'we analysed fragments of the bands found on the Ingram money and found 40 neutrinos per mg3 loss compared to new rubber bands, and as we know neutrino loss in rubber bands has a documented loss rate of .0003 N-loss per year when rubber bands are left exposed to Uv and O2 at the surface of the Earth (in Salem WA) ... we thus conclude that the money and its bands were probably buried in somewhere near the surface of the Earth exposed to some level of UV and O2, in about the year -133,333.333 (BC). Those are our calculations. Our calculations have been peer reviewed. This places the burial of the Cooper money somewhere in the Eemian (also Sangamonian, Ipswichian, Mikulin, Valdivia, Riss-Würm) interglacial period which began about 130,000 years ago and ended about 3:00pm last Tuesday, by our calendar...' If Tom had said something like that, we would have something to work with. Unfortunately all we have is: rubber bands glaze over and die (break) within one year and that means the Cooper money was buried early, sometime in ... 133,333.333 (BC)! You aren't mising anything - there is nothing there to miss. Pending a further explanation by Tom, there is nothing there being missed because the causal connectives Tom might have shown are what is missing. It isn't quite at the same level as another propeller theory but it is not the readers job to supply the chain of factual connectives, that make a reasoned arguement. Tom may have facts he isn't presenting for some reason. However it is not the reader's job to supply missing facts that make a well-connected arguement. Maybe whoever wrote Tom's results up for his website is just a poor communicator? I don't know. But it is not the reader's job to have to guess in matters like this - My personal feeling is I don't like having to say these things. I can only try and describe and relate what I see or fail to see. Science is not supposed to be a mind reading exercise! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42323 August 17, 2013 georger******I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Even under the best of conditions, such as my temperature and humidity controlled closet, rubber bands have a finite lifetime and it is measured in the very low single digits, such as two or three years, and not in larger digits, such as seven or eight years. The very fact that one of the bundles of bills had been "torqued" verifies that the rubber band on that bundle was still pliable when it was buried by sand or it would not have been able to keep the bundle together. The older the rubber bands before they were placed into use, the shorter their useful life. Who knows if these bands were pristine or if they were previously used in the bank's operations? Tom Kaye gave an outer limit estimate of one year from new (he didn't specifically use that word as I recall but his tests were undoubtedly on new bands) to disintegration when exposed to mother nature in the brush. Based on my personal experience, Tom's estimate and test results are realistic. Various sources have stated that at least some of the rubber bands on the bundles that were found buried were still in place when found (this does NOT mean that they were still pliable or bearing loads) but disintegrated when touched. Rubber band time keeping technology may still be quite primitive, but it clearly indicates that the money arrived at Tena Bar at a time much closer to the date of the hijacking than the date it was found. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42324 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins Tom Kaye's presentation on the rubber bands is a bit confusing. I think the current entries at the CS website have been slightly edited from the original statements, but I wouldn't swear to it. Tom's basically saying that since the original rubber bands which were found with the money crumbled when they were touched...and that this condition takes a year or less to occur in nature...that this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Bands crumbled when touched - Ingram's say. This condition takes a year or less to occur - WRONG! That this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Corallary to the above: Milk found was in a cake and crumbled when touched. Milk sours in 2 hours at room temp. Conclusion: Milk found was 8 hours old - (Reality: we buried the milk in 1954! ) Point is: there is no relationship between "bands crumbled" and "bands break after one year" ! It's not a valid comparison- its eggplant vs. an elephant. Both biological but totally different animals! In the case of the bands, totally different "states" in rubber band chemistry and life! Tom has no data on how long it takes for bands to "crumble and dust off when touched". All Tom has is gross breakage after one year, he says, and that isn't even a universal fact! Tom actually had a better gross measurement, he chose not to mention for some reason. He estimated the bills had lost about 1/8th inch of their perimeters say per year. At that rate of loss the bills would be about 9 years old. Guess what! 1980 minus 1971 equals: 9 years. I dont know how valid that estimate was but at least it produced a ballpark result. The point is simple and obvious: you have to get deeper into rubber bands chemistry (left in nature) than 'bands break in one year', in order to use bands as a "clock" ... whatever any of that might or might not have to do with an independent event such as "burial". Maybe instead of "burial" the money was covered by Cooper's corpse and parachute for some years? Who knows! Clocks need to be valid clocks, of the thing you are trying to measure. Bands breaking and burial are not automatically linked at all. Any more than 'bands breaking'and 'he liked blondes' are linked. And fact is, I am only skimming the surface here. If you are going to measure burial vs non-burial don't pick 'bands break in less than one year' as your yardstick. You might as well pick the color of your neighbors car. There are other more well-defined indicators of burial vs non-burial, or a clock on burial vs. non- burial. This discussion is at an extremely elementary level! I hope you realise that? This is 3rd gade science. For example: nowhere in Tom's sceince is there even mention of temperature. Rubber band chemistry and temperature are vitally linked, just as exposure to UV and O2. For example, the melt transition phase of rubber bands at room temp (precursor to breakage) is about 69 degree F. Lacking that (say in a burial or in cold water) then the chemical process changes. From melt transition to crystalisation at 69F is one transitional clock. Lacking a steady application of 69F then the clock is altered - And the same applies to every artifact on earth. Paper. Glass. Human tissue. And the most amazing thing of all to me is: Tom Kaye knows all of this! "I know it when I see it" just does not work and is not sufficient in this situation. You have to get a little deeper than 'bands break in less than one year' and it has to be shown it has some causal connection to burial.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42325 August 17, 2013 Shutter said: "I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? " Jo Replies : I do not know what you find ODD about my keeping up with current news. We only got the Sunday paper and I read it from front to back. My mind back then was much better than today. It is how I aced Test. I could go to the page number in my mind and invision the Geometry or Physics answer. Now, I can't balance my check book. 1971 there was NOT a lot of TV and I had 2 children. I taught them to read as I was an avid reader and felt books were the door to education and intellect - NOT TV. I did well! Dates! Well, I have always been lousy on dates! Do you remember the exact location you were at and what you were doing in the last wk of Sept or the 1st wk of October 1979? I knew I was in WA, but I have not looked at a 1979 calendar. I can tell you what I was wearing on the first day of that trip on our stop in Salt Lake because I have a picture. I know what I wore the next day because it was supposed to cool down. I know where we spent that first night. Remember I had never been to WA in my life and this to me was an experience of a life time. When I traveled with my father - he would quiz us about the places during and after our summer vacation, The teachers usually asked us to write a sma;ll story about our summer experiences. I always had a great story to tell - because my father felt that travel opened the mind and he made sure we retained the memories of all of those trip. We Drove from Ft. Collin, CO to WA. I have even told what kind of car we had and the color. The only remark Duane made about Cooper was that ONE remark! "That's were Cooper walked out of the woods." Yes, I had knowledge of who D.B.Cooper was - just no details. My reply was "How would you know that" His reply was "Maybe I was the one on the ground". He never said one other word about Cooper on the entire trip. I think for a moment he forgot I was not the other woman he had been with for several yrs. Her memory she shared with the bottom of a bottle. Now I will answer your silly questions: We went to Tena's Bar and then drove to the Red Lion. Since I have now been back out there 2 times of course I can tell you how many miles - I have maps. If the trip in 2001 had been more organized and I had been more prepared this saga would be over. Silly why would I think it odd a paper bag would float. It was like an ice cream bag and rolled over at the top - sure - it floated for a period of time. He may even have secured it with a rubber band - but I did not see it before he threw it into the river...only in the car near his right foot. When he go into the car at Tena's bar is when he moved this package from his left to his right, because I asked what it was - he said "Just, trash and I'll get rid of it at the next stop". Well, why was it on the other side of the car and what was in it that he was careful to put it very very close to him. If it was Trash why didn't he just hand it to me and tell me to dump it when we made the next stop - we HAD a trash container in the CAR. THAT is why his calling this trash is ODD to use your word. What I have told is first hand and not second hand and none of it is fabricated. It is the same thing I have told for 17 yrs, but NO ONE CARES about the truth. The truth is not full of adventures. The truth is some what dull. Dumb excon pulls off the BIG ONE as reported by an occupant of Jefferson Prison. No one heard men - they were ex-cons. The FBI never researched the name provided if the ex-prisoners or current prisoner could remember the name. A lot of mismanagement was going on in that prison in 1971. Carr said he could not find the report from Jefferson. Himmeslbach swore agents went to Jefferson and some other prisons to follow leads. I remember my life. Ask my kids. How I could remember what each one of them was wearing and the trip in a Belaire at 105 miles per hour because on of them was severly injured in 1965. I turned my head and one of them kicked and broke glass on a terrazo floor almost severeing the toe of the youngest one. In my frantic to stop the blood flow when I got in the car had locked myself out. I broke the jalousy window to get back in. I passed thru a school zone way over the speed limit. This is when I picked up a highway patrolman. He came along side me and I was driving 105 miles and I kept pointing at the seat and the shaking my head and did NOT stop. The patrol man realize I had a problem and then he had to have gone 110 to pull ahead of me with sirens blasting. When we got to a major intersection he thought I was headed to the hospital, but I turned right toward Casselberry to my Drs OFF and carried my bloodied limp child into him. Had we have gone to the hospital my daughter would have bled out...that area did NOT have good service. The patrolman did double back and found my car infront of the Dr.s office and the nurses told them I had a severly injured child but she was going to ok. The patrol did NOT even bother to talk to me - no need. I suppose he knew I did what was best for my child and for the circumstances. What each one of them was wearing and the color of the seat covers - I can play that back in my mind like a video....Now, DO you understand my memory - it is visual. A moment that means something to me I can go back to. I think everyone remembers things that way. I just retained more than others do. It is not ODD at all - it is normal. Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 1697 1698 Next Page 1693 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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georger 194 #42320 August 17, 2013 Robert99***I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42321 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevinsGeorger: Quote'and Gayla Prociv Beauty Queen...' I thought you were going to stop picking on Gayla... She's prettier than you are, I'm sure. (Georger refers to the fact that Gayla is a former Miss Vista, California) Massive CORRECTION! YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT AND KEEPS BRINGING GAYLA PROCIV BEAUTY QUEEN UP! JUST AS YOU SHOW US PHOTOS OF YOUR RAISNG A HEAVY PIECE OF LAWN FURNITURE ABOVE YOU HEAD IN A SNOWSTORM WITH ONE HAND! WHAT YOUR USE OF GAYLA PROVCIV AND LAWNCHAIRS IN SNOW STORMS HAS TO DO WITH THIS THREAD - ONLY YOU KNOWS! The rest of us read and see this self advertising promo shit and take it as a wacko at work simply being an idiot! I only work here! PLEASE MOVE ON!!! ALLOW US TO TALK ABOUT COOPER!!! Screw you and Gayla Prociv and lawnchiairs etc etc etc etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42322 August 17, 2013 CChargerI do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification.Quote In a word, you aren't missing anthing... because there is nothing there to miss ... it is what it is ... no logical connective tissue or facts between Tom's rubber band tests and 'time of burial'. The two don't automatically connect at all, especially the way Tom lays this out. So, don't strain yourself looking for what is not there. Or, whatever it is Tom has failed to state or deliver. It literally is what it is: which is a failure to show a causal connection between rubber band deterioration (as a clock) and arrival/burial of the money at Tina Bar. The problem is NOT you. The problem is Tom's science and lack of explanation. Now, if Tom had said: 'we analysed fragments of the bands found on the Ingram money and found 40 neutrinos per mg3 loss compared to new rubber bands, and as we know neutrino loss in rubber bands has a documented loss rate of .0003 N-loss per year when rubber bands are left exposed to Uv and O2 at the surface of the Earth (in Salem WA) ... we thus conclude that the money and its bands were probably buried in somewhere near the surface of the Earth exposed to some level of UV and O2, in about the year -133,333.333 (BC). Those are our calculations. Our calculations have been peer reviewed. This places the burial of the Cooper money somewhere in the Eemian (also Sangamonian, Ipswichian, Mikulin, Valdivia, Riss-Würm) interglacial period which began about 130,000 years ago and ended about 3:00pm last Tuesday, by our calendar...' If Tom had said something like that, we would have something to work with. Unfortunately all we have is: rubber bands glaze over and die (break) within one year and that means the Cooper money was buried early, sometime in ... 133,333.333 (BC)! You aren't mising anything - there is nothing there to miss. Pending a further explanation by Tom, there is nothing there being missed because the causal connectives Tom might have shown are what is missing. It isn't quite at the same level as another propeller theory but it is not the readers job to supply the chain of factual connectives, that make a reasoned arguement. Tom may have facts he isn't presenting for some reason. However it is not the reader's job to supply missing facts that make a well-connected arguement. Maybe whoever wrote Tom's results up for his website is just a poor communicator? I don't know. But it is not the reader's job to have to guess in matters like this - My personal feeling is I don't like having to say these things. I can only try and describe and relate what I see or fail to see. Science is not supposed to be a mind reading exercise! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42323 August 17, 2013 georger******I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Even under the best of conditions, such as my temperature and humidity controlled closet, rubber bands have a finite lifetime and it is measured in the very low single digits, such as two or three years, and not in larger digits, such as seven or eight years. The very fact that one of the bundles of bills had been "torqued" verifies that the rubber band on that bundle was still pliable when it was buried by sand or it would not have been able to keep the bundle together. The older the rubber bands before they were placed into use, the shorter their useful life. Who knows if these bands were pristine or if they were previously used in the bank's operations? Tom Kaye gave an outer limit estimate of one year from new (he didn't specifically use that word as I recall but his tests were undoubtedly on new bands) to disintegration when exposed to mother nature in the brush. Based on my personal experience, Tom's estimate and test results are realistic. Various sources have stated that at least some of the rubber bands on the bundles that were found buried were still in place when found (this does NOT mean that they were still pliable or bearing loads) but disintegrated when touched. Rubber band time keeping technology may still be quite primitive, but it clearly indicates that the money arrived at Tena Bar at a time much closer to the date of the hijacking than the date it was found. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42324 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins Tom Kaye's presentation on the rubber bands is a bit confusing. I think the current entries at the CS website have been slightly edited from the original statements, but I wouldn't swear to it. Tom's basically saying that since the original rubber bands which were found with the money crumbled when they were touched...and that this condition takes a year or less to occur in nature...that this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Bands crumbled when touched - Ingram's say. This condition takes a year or less to occur - WRONG! That this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Corallary to the above: Milk found was in a cake and crumbled when touched. Milk sours in 2 hours at room temp. Conclusion: Milk found was 8 hours old - (Reality: we buried the milk in 1954! ) Point is: there is no relationship between "bands crumbled" and "bands break after one year" ! It's not a valid comparison- its eggplant vs. an elephant. Both biological but totally different animals! In the case of the bands, totally different "states" in rubber band chemistry and life! Tom has no data on how long it takes for bands to "crumble and dust off when touched". All Tom has is gross breakage after one year, he says, and that isn't even a universal fact! Tom actually had a better gross measurement, he chose not to mention for some reason. He estimated the bills had lost about 1/8th inch of their perimeters say per year. At that rate of loss the bills would be about 9 years old. Guess what! 1980 minus 1971 equals: 9 years. I dont know how valid that estimate was but at least it produced a ballpark result. The point is simple and obvious: you have to get deeper into rubber bands chemistry (left in nature) than 'bands break in one year', in order to use bands as a "clock" ... whatever any of that might or might not have to do with an independent event such as "burial". Maybe instead of "burial" the money was covered by Cooper's corpse and parachute for some years? Who knows! Clocks need to be valid clocks, of the thing you are trying to measure. Bands breaking and burial are not automatically linked at all. Any more than 'bands breaking'and 'he liked blondes' are linked. And fact is, I am only skimming the surface here. If you are going to measure burial vs non-burial don't pick 'bands break in less than one year' as your yardstick. You might as well pick the color of your neighbors car. There are other more well-defined indicators of burial vs non-burial, or a clock on burial vs. non- burial. This discussion is at an extremely elementary level! I hope you realise that? This is 3rd gade science. For example: nowhere in Tom's sceince is there even mention of temperature. Rubber band chemistry and temperature are vitally linked, just as exposure to UV and O2. For example, the melt transition phase of rubber bands at room temp (precursor to breakage) is about 69 degree F. Lacking that (say in a burial or in cold water) then the chemical process changes. From melt transition to crystalisation at 69F is one transitional clock. Lacking a steady application of 69F then the clock is altered - And the same applies to every artifact on earth. Paper. Glass. Human tissue. And the most amazing thing of all to me is: Tom Kaye knows all of this! "I know it when I see it" just does not work and is not sufficient in this situation. You have to get a little deeper than 'bands break in less than one year' and it has to be shown it has some causal connection to burial.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42325 August 17, 2013 Shutter said: "I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? " Jo Replies : I do not know what you find ODD about my keeping up with current news. We only got the Sunday paper and I read it from front to back. My mind back then was much better than today. It is how I aced Test. I could go to the page number in my mind and invision the Geometry or Physics answer. Now, I can't balance my check book. 1971 there was NOT a lot of TV and I had 2 children. I taught them to read as I was an avid reader and felt books were the door to education and intellect - NOT TV. I did well! Dates! Well, I have always been lousy on dates! Do you remember the exact location you were at and what you were doing in the last wk of Sept or the 1st wk of October 1979? I knew I was in WA, but I have not looked at a 1979 calendar. I can tell you what I was wearing on the first day of that trip on our stop in Salt Lake because I have a picture. I know what I wore the next day because it was supposed to cool down. I know where we spent that first night. Remember I had never been to WA in my life and this to me was an experience of a life time. When I traveled with my father - he would quiz us about the places during and after our summer vacation, The teachers usually asked us to write a sma;ll story about our summer experiences. I always had a great story to tell - because my father felt that travel opened the mind and he made sure we retained the memories of all of those trip. We Drove from Ft. Collin, CO to WA. I have even told what kind of car we had and the color. The only remark Duane made about Cooper was that ONE remark! "That's were Cooper walked out of the woods." Yes, I had knowledge of who D.B.Cooper was - just no details. My reply was "How would you know that" His reply was "Maybe I was the one on the ground". He never said one other word about Cooper on the entire trip. I think for a moment he forgot I was not the other woman he had been with for several yrs. Her memory she shared with the bottom of a bottle. Now I will answer your silly questions: We went to Tena's Bar and then drove to the Red Lion. Since I have now been back out there 2 times of course I can tell you how many miles - I have maps. If the trip in 2001 had been more organized and I had been more prepared this saga would be over. Silly why would I think it odd a paper bag would float. It was like an ice cream bag and rolled over at the top - sure - it floated for a period of time. He may even have secured it with a rubber band - but I did not see it before he threw it into the river...only in the car near his right foot. When he go into the car at Tena's bar is when he moved this package from his left to his right, because I asked what it was - he said "Just, trash and I'll get rid of it at the next stop". Well, why was it on the other side of the car and what was in it that he was careful to put it very very close to him. If it was Trash why didn't he just hand it to me and tell me to dump it when we made the next stop - we HAD a trash container in the CAR. THAT is why his calling this trash is ODD to use your word. What I have told is first hand and not second hand and none of it is fabricated. It is the same thing I have told for 17 yrs, but NO ONE CARES about the truth. The truth is not full of adventures. The truth is some what dull. Dumb excon pulls off the BIG ONE as reported by an occupant of Jefferson Prison. No one heard men - they were ex-cons. The FBI never researched the name provided if the ex-prisoners or current prisoner could remember the name. A lot of mismanagement was going on in that prison in 1971. Carr said he could not find the report from Jefferson. Himmeslbach swore agents went to Jefferson and some other prisons to follow leads. I remember my life. Ask my kids. How I could remember what each one of them was wearing and the trip in a Belaire at 105 miles per hour because on of them was severly injured in 1965. I turned my head and one of them kicked and broke glass on a terrazo floor almost severeing the toe of the youngest one. In my frantic to stop the blood flow when I got in the car had locked myself out. I broke the jalousy window to get back in. I passed thru a school zone way over the speed limit. This is when I picked up a highway patrolman. He came along side me and I was driving 105 miles and I kept pointing at the seat and the shaking my head and did NOT stop. The patrol man realize I had a problem and then he had to have gone 110 to pull ahead of me with sirens blasting. When we got to a major intersection he thought I was headed to the hospital, but I turned right toward Casselberry to my Drs OFF and carried my bloodied limp child into him. Had we have gone to the hospital my daughter would have bled out...that area did NOT have good service. The patrolman did double back and found my car infront of the Dr.s office and the nurses told them I had a severly injured child but she was going to ok. The patrol did NOT even bother to talk to me - no need. I suppose he knew I did what was best for my child and for the circumstances. What each one of them was wearing and the color of the seat covers - I can play that back in my mind like a video....Now, DO you understand my memory - it is visual. A moment that means something to me I can go back to. I think everyone remembers things that way. I just retained more than others do. It is not ODD at all - it is normal. Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 1697 1698 Next Page 1693 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
georger 194 #42321 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevinsGeorger: Quote'and Gayla Prociv Beauty Queen...' I thought you were going to stop picking on Gayla... She's prettier than you are, I'm sure. (Georger refers to the fact that Gayla is a former Miss Vista, California) Massive CORRECTION! YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT AND KEEPS BRINGING GAYLA PROCIV BEAUTY QUEEN UP! JUST AS YOU SHOW US PHOTOS OF YOUR RAISNG A HEAVY PIECE OF LAWN FURNITURE ABOVE YOU HEAD IN A SNOWSTORM WITH ONE HAND! WHAT YOUR USE OF GAYLA PROVCIV AND LAWNCHAIRS IN SNOW STORMS HAS TO DO WITH THIS THREAD - ONLY YOU KNOWS! The rest of us read and see this self advertising promo shit and take it as a wacko at work simply being an idiot! I only work here! PLEASE MOVE ON!!! ALLOW US TO TALK ABOUT COOPER!!! Screw you and Gayla Prociv and lawnchiairs etc etc etc etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #42322 August 17, 2013 CChargerI do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification.Quote In a word, you aren't missing anthing... because there is nothing there to miss ... it is what it is ... no logical connective tissue or facts between Tom's rubber band tests and 'time of burial'. The two don't automatically connect at all, especially the way Tom lays this out. So, don't strain yourself looking for what is not there. Or, whatever it is Tom has failed to state or deliver. It literally is what it is: which is a failure to show a causal connection between rubber band deterioration (as a clock) and arrival/burial of the money at Tina Bar. The problem is NOT you. The problem is Tom's science and lack of explanation. Now, if Tom had said: 'we analysed fragments of the bands found on the Ingram money and found 40 neutrinos per mg3 loss compared to new rubber bands, and as we know neutrino loss in rubber bands has a documented loss rate of .0003 N-loss per year when rubber bands are left exposed to Uv and O2 at the surface of the Earth (in Salem WA) ... we thus conclude that the money and its bands were probably buried in somewhere near the surface of the Earth exposed to some level of UV and O2, in about the year -133,333.333 (BC). Those are our calculations. Our calculations have been peer reviewed. This places the burial of the Cooper money somewhere in the Eemian (also Sangamonian, Ipswichian, Mikulin, Valdivia, Riss-Würm) interglacial period which began about 130,000 years ago and ended about 3:00pm last Tuesday, by our calendar...' If Tom had said something like that, we would have something to work with. Unfortunately all we have is: rubber bands glaze over and die (break) within one year and that means the Cooper money was buried early, sometime in ... 133,333.333 (BC)! You aren't mising anything - there is nothing there to miss. Pending a further explanation by Tom, there is nothing there being missed because the causal connectives Tom might have shown are what is missing. It isn't quite at the same level as another propeller theory but it is not the readers job to supply the chain of factual connectives, that make a reasoned arguement. Tom may have facts he isn't presenting for some reason. However it is not the reader's job to supply missing facts that make a well-connected arguement. Maybe whoever wrote Tom's results up for his website is just a poor communicator? I don't know. But it is not the reader's job to have to guess in matters like this - My personal feeling is I don't like having to say these things. I can only try and describe and relate what I see or fail to see. Science is not supposed to be a mind reading exercise! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #42323 August 17, 2013 georger******I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Even under the best of conditions, such as my temperature and humidity controlled closet, rubber bands have a finite lifetime and it is measured in the very low single digits, such as two or three years, and not in larger digits, such as seven or eight years. The very fact that one of the bundles of bills had been "torqued" verifies that the rubber band on that bundle was still pliable when it was buried by sand or it would not have been able to keep the bundle together. The older the rubber bands before they were placed into use, the shorter their useful life. Who knows if these bands were pristine or if they were previously used in the bank's operations? Tom Kaye gave an outer limit estimate of one year from new (he didn't specifically use that word as I recall but his tests were undoubtedly on new bands) to disintegration when exposed to mother nature in the brush. Based on my personal experience, Tom's estimate and test results are realistic. Various sources have stated that at least some of the rubber bands on the bundles that were found buried were still in place when found (this does NOT mean that they were still pliable or bearing loads) but disintegrated when touched. Rubber band time keeping technology may still be quite primitive, but it clearly indicates that the money arrived at Tena Bar at a time much closer to the date of the hijacking than the date it was found. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42324 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins Tom Kaye's presentation on the rubber bands is a bit confusing. I think the current entries at the CS website have been slightly edited from the original statements, but I wouldn't swear to it. Tom's basically saying that since the original rubber bands which were found with the money crumbled when they were touched...and that this condition takes a year or less to occur in nature...that this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Bands crumbled when touched - Ingram's say. This condition takes a year or less to occur - WRONG! That this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Corallary to the above: Milk found was in a cake and crumbled when touched. Milk sours in 2 hours at room temp. Conclusion: Milk found was 8 hours old - (Reality: we buried the milk in 1954! ) Point is: there is no relationship between "bands crumbled" and "bands break after one year" ! It's not a valid comparison- its eggplant vs. an elephant. Both biological but totally different animals! In the case of the bands, totally different "states" in rubber band chemistry and life! Tom has no data on how long it takes for bands to "crumble and dust off when touched". All Tom has is gross breakage after one year, he says, and that isn't even a universal fact! Tom actually had a better gross measurement, he chose not to mention for some reason. He estimated the bills had lost about 1/8th inch of their perimeters say per year. At that rate of loss the bills would be about 9 years old. Guess what! 1980 minus 1971 equals: 9 years. I dont know how valid that estimate was but at least it produced a ballpark result. The point is simple and obvious: you have to get deeper into rubber bands chemistry (left in nature) than 'bands break in one year', in order to use bands as a "clock" ... whatever any of that might or might not have to do with an independent event such as "burial". Maybe instead of "burial" the money was covered by Cooper's corpse and parachute for some years? Who knows! Clocks need to be valid clocks, of the thing you are trying to measure. Bands breaking and burial are not automatically linked at all. Any more than 'bands breaking'and 'he liked blondes' are linked. And fact is, I am only skimming the surface here. If you are going to measure burial vs non-burial don't pick 'bands break in less than one year' as your yardstick. You might as well pick the color of your neighbors car. There are other more well-defined indicators of burial vs non-burial, or a clock on burial vs. non- burial. This discussion is at an extremely elementary level! I hope you realise that? This is 3rd gade science. For example: nowhere in Tom's sceince is there even mention of temperature. Rubber band chemistry and temperature are vitally linked, just as exposure to UV and O2. For example, the melt transition phase of rubber bands at room temp (precursor to breakage) is about 69 degree F. Lacking that (say in a burial or in cold water) then the chemical process changes. From melt transition to crystalisation at 69F is one transitional clock. Lacking a steady application of 69F then the clock is altered - And the same applies to every artifact on earth. Paper. Glass. Human tissue. And the most amazing thing of all to me is: Tom Kaye knows all of this! "I know it when I see it" just does not work and is not sufficient in this situation. You have to get a little deeper than 'bands break in less than one year' and it has to be shown it has some causal connection to burial.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42325 August 17, 2013 Shutter said: "I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? " Jo Replies : I do not know what you find ODD about my keeping up with current news. We only got the Sunday paper and I read it from front to back. My mind back then was much better than today. It is how I aced Test. I could go to the page number in my mind and invision the Geometry or Physics answer. Now, I can't balance my check book. 1971 there was NOT a lot of TV and I had 2 children. I taught them to read as I was an avid reader and felt books were the door to education and intellect - NOT TV. I did well! Dates! Well, I have always been lousy on dates! Do you remember the exact location you were at and what you were doing in the last wk of Sept or the 1st wk of October 1979? I knew I was in WA, but I have not looked at a 1979 calendar. I can tell you what I was wearing on the first day of that trip on our stop in Salt Lake because I have a picture. I know what I wore the next day because it was supposed to cool down. I know where we spent that first night. Remember I had never been to WA in my life and this to me was an experience of a life time. When I traveled with my father - he would quiz us about the places during and after our summer vacation, The teachers usually asked us to write a sma;ll story about our summer experiences. I always had a great story to tell - because my father felt that travel opened the mind and he made sure we retained the memories of all of those trip. We Drove from Ft. Collin, CO to WA. I have even told what kind of car we had and the color. The only remark Duane made about Cooper was that ONE remark! "That's were Cooper walked out of the woods." Yes, I had knowledge of who D.B.Cooper was - just no details. My reply was "How would you know that" His reply was "Maybe I was the one on the ground". He never said one other word about Cooper on the entire trip. I think for a moment he forgot I was not the other woman he had been with for several yrs. Her memory she shared with the bottom of a bottle. Now I will answer your silly questions: We went to Tena's Bar and then drove to the Red Lion. Since I have now been back out there 2 times of course I can tell you how many miles - I have maps. If the trip in 2001 had been more organized and I had been more prepared this saga would be over. Silly why would I think it odd a paper bag would float. It was like an ice cream bag and rolled over at the top - sure - it floated for a period of time. He may even have secured it with a rubber band - but I did not see it before he threw it into the river...only in the car near his right foot. When he go into the car at Tena's bar is when he moved this package from his left to his right, because I asked what it was - he said "Just, trash and I'll get rid of it at the next stop". Well, why was it on the other side of the car and what was in it that he was careful to put it very very close to him. If it was Trash why didn't he just hand it to me and tell me to dump it when we made the next stop - we HAD a trash container in the CAR. THAT is why his calling this trash is ODD to use your word. What I have told is first hand and not second hand and none of it is fabricated. It is the same thing I have told for 17 yrs, but NO ONE CARES about the truth. The truth is not full of adventures. The truth is some what dull. Dumb excon pulls off the BIG ONE as reported by an occupant of Jefferson Prison. No one heard men - they were ex-cons. The FBI never researched the name provided if the ex-prisoners or current prisoner could remember the name. A lot of mismanagement was going on in that prison in 1971. Carr said he could not find the report from Jefferson. Himmeslbach swore agents went to Jefferson and some other prisons to follow leads. I remember my life. Ask my kids. How I could remember what each one of them was wearing and the trip in a Belaire at 105 miles per hour because on of them was severly injured in 1965. I turned my head and one of them kicked and broke glass on a terrazo floor almost severeing the toe of the youngest one. In my frantic to stop the blood flow when I got in the car had locked myself out. I broke the jalousy window to get back in. I passed thru a school zone way over the speed limit. This is when I picked up a highway patrolman. He came along side me and I was driving 105 miles and I kept pointing at the seat and the shaking my head and did NOT stop. The patrol man realize I had a problem and then he had to have gone 110 to pull ahead of me with sirens blasting. When we got to a major intersection he thought I was headed to the hospital, but I turned right toward Casselberry to my Drs OFF and carried my bloodied limp child into him. Had we have gone to the hospital my daughter would have bled out...that area did NOT have good service. The patrolman did double back and found my car infront of the Dr.s office and the nurses told them I had a severly injured child but she was going to ok. The patrol did NOT even bother to talk to me - no need. I suppose he knew I did what was best for my child and for the circumstances. What each one of them was wearing and the color of the seat covers - I can play that back in my mind like a video....Now, DO you understand my memory - it is visual. A moment that means something to me I can go back to. I think everyone remembers things that way. I just retained more than others do. It is not ODD at all - it is normal. Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 1697 1698 Next Page 1693 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
Robert99 37 #42323 August 17, 2013 georger******I do not think or know if there was an error in analysis. I was just confused because there seems to be different interpretations of his data. I had thought he meant it had to have been buried within a year of the hijacking, however many "in the know" claim it was within a year of the find. Clearly, that makes a world of difference. Thanks for the clarification. Anyone who thinks it was within a year of the find needs to read Tom Kaye's analysis on his web page. There can be no misunderstanding that he plainly states within a year of the hijacking itself. Robert99Quote ... and: just above the deeper clay strata level which Tom says Palmer misidentified and actually is, the clay base to the whole river! Thus, the money was not newly arrived as Palmer said, but older and weathered out of a deeper level due to erosion, with a newly arrived 'upper active level of sand' added on top (due to the flood of 79). ... all of this because: Rubber bands deteriorate (break) in less than one year when exposed to Nature, as revealed by smog studies in CA and Tom's own tests. The Critical Clue: 1. Rubber bands deteriorate within one year, in nature. 2. The Ingram bands were . . . . . what? Still on the bundles? In what condition? (he doesn’t define that). 3. "Interpretation: The bundles must have been buried while the rubber bands were still pliable, within approximately one year of the skyjacking." 4. The found money was 9 years old. Who knows how old the rubber bands already were when applied to the Cooper money. (Tom didn’t ask ... doesn;t state that?) 5. Rubber bands are a clock. (How are rubber bands a clock in this case? Tom doesn't explain...) Criticism pending further explaination: This is about the same precision as trying to hit the Moon with a rock, shot from a slingshot, aimed in the direction of the neighbor's barn. Pending some statement of the condition the Ingram rubber bands were in, I fail to see any connection between Tom's rubber bands tests and the Ingram find at all.Moreover, Tom did not have any of the Ingram rubber band fragments to inspect or test, so far as I know? Interpretation: Tom's rubber band tests say nothing about 'when the money was buried'! Even under the best of conditions, such as my temperature and humidity controlled closet, rubber bands have a finite lifetime and it is measured in the very low single digits, such as two or three years, and not in larger digits, such as seven or eight years. The very fact that one of the bundles of bills had been "torqued" verifies that the rubber band on that bundle was still pliable when it was buried by sand or it would not have been able to keep the bundle together. The older the rubber bands before they were placed into use, the shorter their useful life. Who knows if these bands were pristine or if they were previously used in the bank's operations? Tom Kaye gave an outer limit estimate of one year from new (he didn't specifically use that word as I recall but his tests were undoubtedly on new bands) to disintegration when exposed to mother nature in the brush. Based on my personal experience, Tom's estimate and test results are realistic. Various sources have stated that at least some of the rubber bands on the bundles that were found buried were still in place when found (this does NOT mean that they were still pliable or bearing loads) but disintegrated when touched. Rubber band time keeping technology may still be quite primitive, but it clearly indicates that the money arrived at Tena Bar at a time much closer to the date of the hijacking than the date it was found. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #42324 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins Tom Kaye's presentation on the rubber bands is a bit confusing. I think the current entries at the CS website have been slightly edited from the original statements, but I wouldn't swear to it. Tom's basically saying that since the original rubber bands which were found with the money crumbled when they were touched...and that this condition takes a year or less to occur in nature...that this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Bands crumbled when touched - Ingram's say. This condition takes a year or less to occur - WRONG! That this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Corallary to the above: Milk found was in a cake and crumbled when touched. Milk sours in 2 hours at room temp. Conclusion: Milk found was 8 hours old - (Reality: we buried the milk in 1954! ) Point is: there is no relationship between "bands crumbled" and "bands break after one year" ! It's not a valid comparison- its eggplant vs. an elephant. Both biological but totally different animals! In the case of the bands, totally different "states" in rubber band chemistry and life! Tom has no data on how long it takes for bands to "crumble and dust off when touched". All Tom has is gross breakage after one year, he says, and that isn't even a universal fact! Tom actually had a better gross measurement, he chose not to mention for some reason. He estimated the bills had lost about 1/8th inch of their perimeters say per year. At that rate of loss the bills would be about 9 years old. Guess what! 1980 minus 1971 equals: 9 years. I dont know how valid that estimate was but at least it produced a ballpark result. The point is simple and obvious: you have to get deeper into rubber bands chemistry (left in nature) than 'bands break in one year', in order to use bands as a "clock" ... whatever any of that might or might not have to do with an independent event such as "burial". Maybe instead of "burial" the money was covered by Cooper's corpse and parachute for some years? Who knows! Clocks need to be valid clocks, of the thing you are trying to measure. Bands breaking and burial are not automatically linked at all. Any more than 'bands breaking'and 'he liked blondes' are linked. And fact is, I am only skimming the surface here. If you are going to measure burial vs non-burial don't pick 'bands break in less than one year' as your yardstick. You might as well pick the color of your neighbors car. There are other more well-defined indicators of burial vs non-burial, or a clock on burial vs. non- burial. This discussion is at an extremely elementary level! I hope you realise that? This is 3rd gade science. For example: nowhere in Tom's sceince is there even mention of temperature. Rubber band chemistry and temperature are vitally linked, just as exposure to UV and O2. For example, the melt transition phase of rubber bands at room temp (precursor to breakage) is about 69 degree F. Lacking that (say in a burial or in cold water) then the chemical process changes. From melt transition to crystalisation at 69F is one transitional clock. Lacking a steady application of 69F then the clock is altered - And the same applies to every artifact on earth. Paper. Glass. Human tissue. And the most amazing thing of all to me is: Tom Kaye knows all of this! "I know it when I see it" just does not work and is not sufficient in this situation. You have to get a little deeper than 'bands break in less than one year' and it has to be shown it has some causal connection to burial.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #42325 August 17, 2013 Shutter said: "I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? " Jo Replies : I do not know what you find ODD about my keeping up with current news. We only got the Sunday paper and I read it from front to back. My mind back then was much better than today. It is how I aced Test. I could go to the page number in my mind and invision the Geometry or Physics answer. Now, I can't balance my check book. 1971 there was NOT a lot of TV and I had 2 children. I taught them to read as I was an avid reader and felt books were the door to education and intellect - NOT TV. I did well! Dates! Well, I have always been lousy on dates! Do you remember the exact location you were at and what you were doing in the last wk of Sept or the 1st wk of October 1979? I knew I was in WA, but I have not looked at a 1979 calendar. I can tell you what I was wearing on the first day of that trip on our stop in Salt Lake because I have a picture. I know what I wore the next day because it was supposed to cool down. I know where we spent that first night. Remember I had never been to WA in my life and this to me was an experience of a life time. When I traveled with my father - he would quiz us about the places during and after our summer vacation, The teachers usually asked us to write a sma;ll story about our summer experiences. I always had a great story to tell - because my father felt that travel opened the mind and he made sure we retained the memories of all of those trip. We Drove from Ft. Collin, CO to WA. I have even told what kind of car we had and the color. The only remark Duane made about Cooper was that ONE remark! "That's were Cooper walked out of the woods." Yes, I had knowledge of who D.B.Cooper was - just no details. My reply was "How would you know that" His reply was "Maybe I was the one on the ground". He never said one other word about Cooper on the entire trip. I think for a moment he forgot I was not the other woman he had been with for several yrs. Her memory she shared with the bottom of a bottle. Now I will answer your silly questions: We went to Tena's Bar and then drove to the Red Lion. Since I have now been back out there 2 times of course I can tell you how many miles - I have maps. If the trip in 2001 had been more organized and I had been more prepared this saga would be over. Silly why would I think it odd a paper bag would float. It was like an ice cream bag and rolled over at the top - sure - it floated for a period of time. He may even have secured it with a rubber band - but I did not see it before he threw it into the river...only in the car near his right foot. When he go into the car at Tena's bar is when he moved this package from his left to his right, because I asked what it was - he said "Just, trash and I'll get rid of it at the next stop". Well, why was it on the other side of the car and what was in it that he was careful to put it very very close to him. If it was Trash why didn't he just hand it to me and tell me to dump it when we made the next stop - we HAD a trash container in the CAR. THAT is why his calling this trash is ODD to use your word. What I have told is first hand and not second hand and none of it is fabricated. It is the same thing I have told for 17 yrs, but NO ONE CARES about the truth. The truth is not full of adventures. The truth is some what dull. Dumb excon pulls off the BIG ONE as reported by an occupant of Jefferson Prison. No one heard men - they were ex-cons. The FBI never researched the name provided if the ex-prisoners or current prisoner could remember the name. A lot of mismanagement was going on in that prison in 1971. Carr said he could not find the report from Jefferson. Himmeslbach swore agents went to Jefferson and some other prisons to follow leads. I remember my life. Ask my kids. How I could remember what each one of them was wearing and the trip in a Belaire at 105 miles per hour because on of them was severly injured in 1965. I turned my head and one of them kicked and broke glass on a terrazo floor almost severeing the toe of the youngest one. In my frantic to stop the blood flow when I got in the car had locked myself out. I broke the jalousy window to get back in. I passed thru a school zone way over the speed limit. This is when I picked up a highway patrolman. He came along side me and I was driving 105 miles and I kept pointing at the seat and the shaking my head and did NOT stop. The patrol man realize I had a problem and then he had to have gone 110 to pull ahead of me with sirens blasting. When we got to a major intersection he thought I was headed to the hospital, but I turned right toward Casselberry to my Drs OFF and carried my bloodied limp child into him. Had we have gone to the hospital my daughter would have bled out...that area did NOT have good service. The patrolman did double back and found my car infront of the Dr.s office and the nurses told them I had a severly injured child but she was going to ok. The patrol did NOT even bother to talk to me - no need. I suppose he knew I did what was best for my child and for the circumstances. What each one of them was wearing and the color of the seat covers - I can play that back in my mind like a video....Now, DO you understand my memory - it is visual. A moment that means something to me I can go back to. I think everyone remembers things that way. I just retained more than others do. It is not ODD at all - it is normal. Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1688 1689 1690 1691 1692 1693 1694 1695 1696 1697 1698 Next Page 1693 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47
georger 194 #42324 August 17, 2013 RobertMBlevins Tom Kaye's presentation on the rubber bands is a bit confusing. I think the current entries at the CS website have been slightly edited from the original statements, but I wouldn't swear to it. Tom's basically saying that since the original rubber bands which were found with the money crumbled when they were touched...and that this condition takes a year or less to occur in nature...that this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Bands crumbled when touched - Ingram's say. This condition takes a year or less to occur - WRONG! That this means the money was buried within a year after the hijacking. Corallary to the above: Milk found was in a cake and crumbled when touched. Milk sours in 2 hours at room temp. Conclusion: Milk found was 8 hours old - (Reality: we buried the milk in 1954! ) Point is: there is no relationship between "bands crumbled" and "bands break after one year" ! It's not a valid comparison- its eggplant vs. an elephant. Both biological but totally different animals! In the case of the bands, totally different "states" in rubber band chemistry and life! Tom has no data on how long it takes for bands to "crumble and dust off when touched". All Tom has is gross breakage after one year, he says, and that isn't even a universal fact! Tom actually had a better gross measurement, he chose not to mention for some reason. He estimated the bills had lost about 1/8th inch of their perimeters say per year. At that rate of loss the bills would be about 9 years old. Guess what! 1980 minus 1971 equals: 9 years. I dont know how valid that estimate was but at least it produced a ballpark result. The point is simple and obvious: you have to get deeper into rubber bands chemistry (left in nature) than 'bands break in one year', in order to use bands as a "clock" ... whatever any of that might or might not have to do with an independent event such as "burial". Maybe instead of "burial" the money was covered by Cooper's corpse and parachute for some years? Who knows! Clocks need to be valid clocks, of the thing you are trying to measure. Bands breaking and burial are not automatically linked at all. Any more than 'bands breaking'and 'he liked blondes' are linked. And fact is, I am only skimming the surface here. If you are going to measure burial vs non-burial don't pick 'bands break in less than one year' as your yardstick. You might as well pick the color of your neighbors car. There are other more well-defined indicators of burial vs non-burial, or a clock on burial vs. non- burial. This discussion is at an extremely elementary level! I hope you realise that? This is 3rd gade science. For example: nowhere in Tom's sceince is there even mention of temperature. Rubber band chemistry and temperature are vitally linked, just as exposure to UV and O2. For example, the melt transition phase of rubber bands at room temp (precursor to breakage) is about 69 degree F. Lacking that (say in a burial or in cold water) then the chemical process changes. From melt transition to crystalisation at 69F is one transitional clock. Lacking a steady application of 69F then the clock is altered - And the same applies to every artifact on earth. Paper. Glass. Human tissue. And the most amazing thing of all to me is: Tom Kaye knows all of this! "I know it when I see it" just does not work and is not sufficient in this situation. You have to get a little deeper than 'bands break in less than one year' and it has to be shown it has some causal connection to burial.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #42325 August 17, 2013 Shutter said: "I find this statement a little odd. something, according to you was irrelevant all the way up to 1996, but, you know exactly where the article was in 1971? 1979 comes along and you can't place any dates you were in Washington. the best you gave was September, middle of October at the latest? " Jo Replies : I do not know what you find ODD about my keeping up with current news. We only got the Sunday paper and I read it from front to back. My mind back then was much better than today. It is how I aced Test. I could go to the page number in my mind and invision the Geometry or Physics answer. Now, I can't balance my check book. 1971 there was NOT a lot of TV and I had 2 children. I taught them to read as I was an avid reader and felt books were the door to education and intellect - NOT TV. I did well! Dates! Well, I have always been lousy on dates! Do you remember the exact location you were at and what you were doing in the last wk of Sept or the 1st wk of October 1979? I knew I was in WA, but I have not looked at a 1979 calendar. I can tell you what I was wearing on the first day of that trip on our stop in Salt Lake because I have a picture. I know what I wore the next day because it was supposed to cool down. I know where we spent that first night. Remember I had never been to WA in my life and this to me was an experience of a life time. When I traveled with my father - he would quiz us about the places during and after our summer vacation, The teachers usually asked us to write a sma;ll story about our summer experiences. I always had a great story to tell - because my father felt that travel opened the mind and he made sure we retained the memories of all of those trip. We Drove from Ft. Collin, CO to WA. I have even told what kind of car we had and the color. The only remark Duane made about Cooper was that ONE remark! "That's were Cooper walked out of the woods." Yes, I had knowledge of who D.B.Cooper was - just no details. My reply was "How would you know that" His reply was "Maybe I was the one on the ground". He never said one other word about Cooper on the entire trip. I think for a moment he forgot I was not the other woman he had been with for several yrs. Her memory she shared with the bottom of a bottle. Now I will answer your silly questions: We went to Tena's Bar and then drove to the Red Lion. Since I have now been back out there 2 times of course I can tell you how many miles - I have maps. If the trip in 2001 had been more organized and I had been more prepared this saga would be over. Silly why would I think it odd a paper bag would float. It was like an ice cream bag and rolled over at the top - sure - it floated for a period of time. He may even have secured it with a rubber band - but I did not see it before he threw it into the river...only in the car near his right foot. When he go into the car at Tena's bar is when he moved this package from his left to his right, because I asked what it was - he said "Just, trash and I'll get rid of it at the next stop". Well, why was it on the other side of the car and what was in it that he was careful to put it very very close to him. If it was Trash why didn't he just hand it to me and tell me to dump it when we made the next stop - we HAD a trash container in the CAR. THAT is why his calling this trash is ODD to use your word. What I have told is first hand and not second hand and none of it is fabricated. It is the same thing I have told for 17 yrs, but NO ONE CARES about the truth. The truth is not full of adventures. The truth is some what dull. Dumb excon pulls off the BIG ONE as reported by an occupant of Jefferson Prison. No one heard men - they were ex-cons. The FBI never researched the name provided if the ex-prisoners or current prisoner could remember the name. A lot of mismanagement was going on in that prison in 1971. Carr said he could not find the report from Jefferson. Himmeslbach swore agents went to Jefferson and some other prisons to follow leads. I remember my life. Ask my kids. How I could remember what each one of them was wearing and the trip in a Belaire at 105 miles per hour because on of them was severly injured in 1965. I turned my head and one of them kicked and broke glass on a terrazo floor almost severeing the toe of the youngest one. In my frantic to stop the blood flow when I got in the car had locked myself out. I broke the jalousy window to get back in. I passed thru a school zone way over the speed limit. This is when I picked up a highway patrolman. He came along side me and I was driving 105 miles and I kept pointing at the seat and the shaking my head and did NOT stop. The patrol man realize I had a problem and then he had to have gone 110 to pull ahead of me with sirens blasting. When we got to a major intersection he thought I was headed to the hospital, but I turned right toward Casselberry to my Drs OFF and carried my bloodied limp child into him. Had we have gone to the hospital my daughter would have bled out...that area did NOT have good service. The patrolman did double back and found my car infront of the Dr.s office and the nurses told them I had a severly injured child but she was going to ok. The patrol did NOT even bother to talk to me - no need. I suppose he knew I did what was best for my child and for the circumstances. What each one of them was wearing and the color of the seat covers - I can play that back in my mind like a video....Now, DO you understand my memory - it is visual. A moment that means something to me I can go back to. I think everyone remembers things that way. I just retained more than others do. It is not ODD at all - it is normal. Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
