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DB Cooper

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Honestly, never heard so much gobblety-gook from so many cover-up artists. Time to poke my nose in for another review. You are all singing turkey tunes at the moon. You beat down a poor old lady with a secret. Jo, your secret is true, it is real and these guys are supposed to keep you occupied. Duane Weber trained for jumping out of the back of a 727 in my front yard (apartments) during the summer of 1968 for the express purpose of executing Project Norjack. Project Norjack was used as a political leverage ploy to spur Air Piracy Conventions in the Hauge, Japan and Montreal and to leverage Congress to pass air safety standards. They refused, Nixon enacted an Executive order based on Norjack, and we all lived happily ever after. This is what really happened, the details are in my notes and more of the story continues in McCoy's writings. Jo has the truth, she just won't accept it because she does not like it. Bite me. Them's the facts, Ma'am.



Thank You so very much in your assistance!

Please have the original notes you are referencing handy.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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I have a dedicated computer just for this system to function with little issues. still have some kinks to correct B|



Yes, your project 305 cockpit is very cool! B|:)
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

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Bob said: "Time to poke my nose in for another review"

Shutter says: we are all wonder why you haven't been using names such as O'Hara, Carr, Rataczak (aka TOG) in resent postings?

this is not like you Bob, you are full of truth and names? why the sudden halt? could it be the very same people you will "only
talk to" are now watching you? Bob Bob Bob, Mac Mac Mac, Bull Bull Bull, Crap Crap Crap........

do you think by not posting and using public figures implicating them in a Government cover up will all go away?
only if you stop posting Bob!!!

on behalf of the legal system as well as the Government you cover for SO well, we thank you for your future cooperation!
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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I have a dedicated computer just for this system to function with little issues. still have some kinks to correct B|



Yes, your project 305 cockpit is very cool! B|:)


thanks, I'm sorta like TimTaylor from Home Improvement, "more power" I keep adding things to it making it better as I go ;)

I started out just putting it on the counter and went over board from there B| still not done, not even close! yikes
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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Farflung writes:

Here’s the starting point, official or otherwise:

Centerline, infinitely small point, V-23.

Money release point, anywhere along V-23 centerline, and over the Columbia River.

End of data. END…. THE E-N-D The only extra would be from inference, bias or voodoo, at this moment. End of model. There is no more. “In the beginning……:” blah, blah, blah “Amen.”

R99 replies:

Farflung, the "end of data", with respect to the flight path, is the point where the stair placard landed. Tom Kaye has published the GPS coordinates of that point. The estimated point for the placard's separation from the aircraft has been calculated but required so many "assumptions", about such things as winds aloft, that it must not be accepted as absolute truth.

The "end of data", with respect to the jump point, is the point where the money was found at Tena Bar. And Tom Kaye has also published the GPS coordinates of that point.

It is speculation to say that the jump point had to be on the V-23 centerline on over the Columbia River.

Farflung continues:

This is the simplest design to deliver some money to Tena Bar. Agreed? Yes/No?

If No, What is a simpler solution? Present it.

If Yes, what data set would move or modify the original points?

You must have a source, no more ‘because I say so’ or wishful thinking. It just can’t be this difficult to make this point.

How do you know Cooper didn’t jump over Guam? If you can reason that out, or into the equation, then any other data set you possess or covet, should work just as well. It would be a matter of resolution and not process, since they are the same.

Did Cooper jump over Christmas Island? See, two places are on or off the list, but YOU maintain the things, because I want to know what lies in the realm of most probable (least complex)…. to less probable, based upon things which exclude unicorns, wishful thinking and pure bullshit.

R99 replies:

The simplest way for the money to get to Tena Bar is a direct jump or, more likely, crater on Tena Bar.

There is no accurate information on the exact jump point, FBI maps to the contrary.

The Tena Bar money find and location is a single, independent data point. It is not an "outlier", but is a valid point and how the money got there has a rational explanation even if it is not known at this time.

Hopefully, Georger will expand on the dredge operations later today.

Robert99

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I also believe the flight path is correct. I haven't seen any solid evidence that really disputes it.



Blevins, Have you seen any solid evidence that supports the flight path? If so, please state where it has been hiding.

Robert99

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And people say I reach a bit sometimes on theories?

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'To answer Georger's specific question, and he and I have discussed this subject privately before, the answer is probably yes. And the best time to check would be after flooding above a certain elevation. This implies that the money impacted on land and stayed in the money bag for a substantial period of time and gradually "leaked" out when the flooding reached its elevation.

Robert99'



Do you have ANY evidence at ALL to support such a statement? Have you had a chance to examine any of the found bills in a research environment with really smart folks behind the wheel? What makes you say this?

Tom Kaye and his team came to the conclusion that the money arrived by what he calls 'non-natural means' and he discounts the dredging theory. If those bills were dredged onto the shore, then how exactly did some of them come to align so perfectly that the ink from the serial numbers ran together? Let's not forget there were also rubber bands in place, although they crumbled upon contact.

Dredging is a pretty rough process.

In addition, the bills were discovered well above the water line. Perhaps a flood or high water delivered them there. Fine. Then explain HOW $5,800 of this money ended up in the same exact spot. Maybe the bundles reached out in a happy-happy Kum-Ba-Ya moment and somehow stayed together.

Make fun of this if you wish, but it's hard to explain how MORE THAN ONE BUNDLE of the cash ended up buried together in the condition it was found. A great deal of it, yes. That would point to a dropzone for the money. Less than a bundle, again yes. That might point to a lost cash bag going downriver from somewhere with a leak, or hanging up and then disintegrating and leaking.

Three bundles together (approximate amount) is much harder to explain using dredging or washdown, especially above the water line.

And didn't I hear something about the location of the find being ABOVE the line where they were dumping the dredge spoils?



Blevins, It would be nice if you would read the question from Georger that I responded to. My response explains itself.

I did not say that dredging was involved.

Tom Kaye, Georger, and others, as well as myself, have long known that the money was found well above the water line.

In my personal judgment, the fact that some of the bills were still bundled, or close to it, suggests that the money had not moved very far from its original resting point.

Hopefully, Georger will expand on the dredging operations later today. If he does, you may learn something so read his post carefully.

There have been any number of other posts on this thread over the years by several individuals, including myself, about the Tena Bar money find and how the money may have arrived there. It might be helpful if you read some of them.

Robert99

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Robert99 opines about a “simpler” solution with:

The simplest way for the money to get to Tena Bar is a direct jump or, more likely, crater on Tena Bar.”

I don’t see from a process standpoint, how that could possibly be ‘simpler’. I’m assuming you have no aviation experience and therefore don’t have any knowledge about instrument flying.

V-23 is an airway which has been surveyed under the direction of the FAA, which guarantees obstacle avoidance and navaid reception which follows beams transmitted by radio stations. Getting the point here on what constitutes simple? That means sans bias, unicorns and wishful thinking using available data which was: an airline cleared to depart SEA, via V-23. How is deviating from V-23 to overhead Tena Bar more simplistic? Where would this deviation take place? Where is it recorded? Where is the source, I all but begged for?

Farflung quotes self:

End of data. END…. THE E-N-D The only extra would be from inference, bias or voodoo, at this moment.”

Do you see how I said the model ended with two statements? Is V-23 an airway used by aircraft? Did it cross the Columbia? Is that simple? I did NOT say correct, just simple AND ONE OF MANY, MANY, MANY solutions supported by available data. I can’t get over how this appears to be so complex, when the intent is the polar opposite. This has already had too many iterations and the money clearly fell from your unicorn based model. You win, sincerely, you win, there’s no room for dozens, let alone two answers. You are right Robert99, you win.

Doesn’t matter because it just magically appeared over Fazio’s and that’s simpler than a commercial airliner, following a Victor airway, as planned and cleared, and followed by radar, and pseudo-verified by an emergency placard at Toutle, which also times out with a vehicle moving between 160 and 175 knots. Amazing how blinding a person’s bias is to such a simple equation. All you have to do with the ‘simpler’ proposal is: add several dozen action points. Not good Robert99, but you win. Flight 305 inexplicably changed heading and flew direct to Tena Bar while spoofing radar, avoiding ATC detection and then reporting south of the Portland navaid, at a time consistent with an airframe following V-23. The plausibility lies in the fact that there is nothing to indicate this path was taken, therefore proving it happened via magic.

This subject is clearly too incendiary and toxic to apply any sort of rational process, since the very suggestion of a two step process, with one action point, has some blinding effect which ultimately MUST lead to a pre-selected answer. Got it. Nothing will be clarified by georger or anyone else on this subject, since there is clearly a solution out there just looking for a problem to solve. Get a shovel, some Southwest and prove how sure your are of your work. I don’t have the “will” to continue.

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Robert99 opines about a “simpler” solution with:

The simplest way for the money to get to Tena Bar is a direct jump or, more likely, crater on Tena Bar.”

I don’t see from a process standpoint, how that could possibly be ‘simpler’. I’m assuming you have no aviation experience and therefore don’t have any knowledge about instrument flying.

V-23 is an airway which has been surveyed under the direction of the FAA, which guarantees obstacle avoidance and navaid reception which follows beams transmitted by radio stations. Getting the point here on what constitutes simple? That means sans bias, unicorns and wishful thinking using available data which was: an airline cleared to depart SEA, via V-23. How is deviating from V-23 to overhead Tena Bar more simplistic? Where would this deviation take place? Where is it recorded? Where is the source, I all but begged for?

Farflung quotes self:

End of data. END…. THE E-N-D The only extra would be from inference, bias or voodoo, at this moment.”

Do you see how I said the model ended with two statements? Is V-23 an airway used by aircraft? Did it cross the Columbia? Is that simple? I did NOT say correct, just simple AND ONE OF MANY, MANY, MANY solutions supported by available data. I can’t get over how this appears to be so complex, when the intent is the polar opposite. This has already had too many iterations and the money clearly fell from your unicorn based model. You win, sincerely, you win, there’s no room for dozens, let alone two answers. You are right Robert99, you win.

Doesn’t matter because it just magically appeared over Fazio’s and that’s simpler than a commercial airliner, following a Victor airway, as planned and cleared, and followed by radar, and pseudo-verified by an emergency placard at Toutle, which also times out with a vehicle moving between 160 and 175 knots. Amazing how blinding a person’s bias is to such a simple equation. All you have to do with the ‘simpler’ proposal is: add several dozen action points. Not good Robert99, but you win. Flight 305 inexplicably changed heading and flew direct to Tena Bar while spoofing radar, avoiding ATC detection and then reporting south of the Portland navaid, at a time consistent with an airframe following V-23. The plausibility lies in the fact that there is nothing to indicate this path was taken, therefore proving it happened via magic.

This subject is clearly too incendiary and toxic to apply any sort of rational process, since the very suggestion of a two step process, with one action point, has some blinding effect which ultimately MUST lead to a pre-selected answer. Got it. Nothing will be clarified by georger or anyone else on this subject, since there is clearly a solution out there just looking for a problem to solve. Get a shovel, some Southwest and prove how sure your are of your work. I don’t have the “will” to continue.



Farflung, We seem to be having a communications problem.

First, it is obvious that you have not read the radio transcripts that are available on Sluggo's web page. If you had, you would be aware of the "clearance" that was passed to the hijacked airliner by the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center. In case you are not familiar with the functions of air traffic control, more information can be found on Wikipedia and the Seattle ATC Center has its own web page that can be found thru Google.

Basically, the "clearance" was "do whatever you have to do and we will keep people out of your way". The airliner was given a block of air space 4000 feet above and below its requested (by Cooper) 10,000 feet ASL cruising altitude.

While no lateral limits were mentioned in the clearance, I am aware that airways have lateral boundaries in case you are wondering, it was clearly implied that they could depart V-23 if they so desired.

The Seattle VORTAC is and was between the runways on the south side of the Seattle airport. The airliner took off almost directly aligned with V-23 and climbed straight out. However, if the FBI flight path charts are to be believed, the airliner did quite a bit of wandering laterally on V-23 during its flight to the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersection and then on to the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC.

If you wish to view the navigational information the airliner crew used during the flight along V-23, then you need go no further than Sluggo's web page again. A copy of the L-1 and L-2 Low Altitude Enroute IFR Charts that were in effect on November 24, 1971 can be found there.

The Seattle ATC radio transcripts for the flight south are also available on Sluggo's web page. If you take the time to read them, you will discover that from a point about 20 nautical miles south of the Seattle VORTAC to just north of the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California the transcrips do not contain a single thing which would pinpoint the location of the aircraft. Almost all of the conversation between the airliner and Seattle ATC was simply one controller telling the airliner to contact another controller and stating the new frequency, and the receiving controller telling the airliner to ident and state altitude.

If you are not familiar with ATC communications in the 1971 era, then you need to read the Oakland ATC Center's transcripts which are also available on Sluggo's web page. The Oakland transcripts depict life and it was lived in that day. And it is clearly evident that the Seattle ATC transcripts have been "scrubbed" to delete relevant information about the airliner's flight path.

If you feel that the time and position marks on the FBI's charts are correct, then please explain how an aircraft flying at constant speed can travel three miles in one minute and then six miles in the next minute without changing speed or spoofing the clock.

To summarize the flight path information, no one knows precisely the airliner's position during the time it was in the Portland area.

If something can be more simple than a direct fall onto Tena Bar then please elaborate. Also, please keep in mind that when Cooper separated from the airliner, he would be on the ground in about 40 seconds if no-pull. After that, water was the only "moving" force and would only apply sporadically if he landed on solid ground.

If you accept the FBI's flight path with a segmented circle around the west side of Portland, then please explain why it would not be much simpler to just change course a few degrees to the west earlier and then fly a straight line to a point on V-23 south of Portland.

If Georger posts on the dredging later today, as he indicated he would, then he may answer some questions that you didn't realize you wanted to ask.

Also, a few weeks ago, I suggested a visit to Tena Bar with equipment appropriate for making a suitable search related to Cooper. There were no takers. Would you be interested in visiting Tena Bar?

Robert99

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The light finally went on for me. This whole subject is nothing but a ‘Trojan Horse’ to facilitate this overly scripted, and overly hyped discussion about dredging by georger, and what I posted must have caused some, unknown to me, but pre-emptive damage to your poorly veiled attempt at some sort of legitimacy. Why would georger AND Robert99 need to announce how they have had long, private discussions on this ‘spontaneous’ subject? Theatrics.

Count me permanently out of any type of charade or butthole puppetry. Between RobertMBlevins and Skyjack71, I get more than my fill of garbage analysis and faux sincerity. I’m embarrassed that I didn’t see this sooner. Shame on me…. this time.

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The light finally went on for me. This whole subject is nothing but a ‘Trojan Horse’ to facilitate this overly scripted, and overly hyped discussion about dredging by georger, and what I posted must have caused some, unknown to me, but pre-emptive damage to your poorly veiled attempt at some sort of legitimacy. Why would georger AND Robert99 need to announce how they have had long, private discussions on this ‘spontaneous’ subject? Theatrics.

Count me permanently out of any type of charade or butthole puppetry. Between RobertMBlevins and Skyjack71, I get more than my fill of garbage analysis and faux sincerity. I’m embarrassed that I didn’t see this sooner. Shame on me…. this time.



Hey...I AM sincere. Correct all the time? NO. Sincere, yes. Garbage analysis? Possible...sometimes. Not always.


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The light finally went on for me. This whole subject is nothing but a ‘Trojan Horse’ to facilitate this overly scripted, and overly hyped discussion about dredging by georger, and what I posted must have caused some, unknown to me, but pre-emptive damage to your poorly veiled attempt at some sort of legitimacy. Why would georger AND Robert99 need to announce how they have had long, private discussions on this ‘spontaneous’ subject? Theatrics.

Count me permanently out of any type of charade or butthole puppetry. Between RobertMBlevins and Skyjack71, I get more than my fill of garbage analysis and faux sincerity. I’m embarrassed that I didn’t see this sooner. Shame on me…. this time.



Not sure what is going on or what this is all about
but there is no 'script' on my part about anything or
with anyone. Hmmmm. Guess I will figure this out
later.

To Robt99: I had no plan for a long dissertation on
the dredging. Not sure what you have in mind or
expect, from me? Tonight? Oh! Far had asked
about previous research on dredging along the
Columbia (last night) and I said I would come back
and say more tonight - that was my only plan, if
anyone cares? But no script made for it ...

IN FACT THE ONLY REASON IM HERE is I have a break
and a moment, have been at Tom's website which I
see has been highly revised since the last time I
was there.

I went to Toms site looking for his comments about
print bleeds (exact stacking of bills) but could not
find anything about that? Maybe I need another
pair of glasses but I cant find it - does anyone
knows where it is exactly, under MONEY, under Tina
Bar, maybe he removed that Sasquatch?

If anyone knows post a note here. I will be back
later tonight.

Carry on!

IO really would like to find Toms exact comments
about his socalled print-exact lineup btwn bills - if
its even on his website? I want to know what "bills"
he's talking about ??? The three bills he received
originally (sent by Carr), other bills he looked at in
Seattle .... WTF are you talking about Tom!?

I hope you are not using a sample of 3 bills as
representative of all the bundles, all the cash,
what are you talking about?

G.

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The light finally went on for me. This whole subject is nothing but a ‘Trojan Horse’ to facilitate this overly scripted, and overly hyped discussion about dredging by georger, and what I posted must have caused some, unknown to me, but pre-emptive damage to your poorly veiled attempt at some sort of legitimacy. Why would georger AND Robert99 need to announce how they have had long, private discussions on this ‘spontaneous’ subject? Theatrics.

Count me permanently out of any type of charade or butthole puppetry. Between RobertMBlevins and Skyjack71, I get more than my fill of garbage analysis and faux sincerity. I’m embarrassed that I didn’t see this sooner. Shame on me…. this time.



Let me respond, answer is not the right word, to both of your posts.

First, the Cooper hijacking is not brain surgery.

Second, the Cooper hijacking is not even rocket science.

Third, the Cooper hijacking is not even science. However, science can help in resolving it.

Fourth, the Cooper hijacking is a simple case of an individual who got lucky, came into some money under illegal circumstances, and was last seen alive, as far as it is known, shortly before he departed the stairs of an airliner, by either jumping off, falling off, or being thrown off, while flying at 10,000 feet.

More than eight years later, some of the money Cooper received was found relatively near the flight path of the airliner. How the money got to that location has generated more theories than there are answers.

Spontaneous subject? Theatrics?

If you have a sincere and non-garbage theory that can put the money well above the normal water level at Tena Bar, and uses only gravity, wind, and water (but not too much water) to do so, then please post it to this thread so lesser mortals can be enlightened.

Robert99

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The light finally went on for me. This whole subject is nothing but a ‘Trojan Horse’ to facilitate this overly scripted, and overly hyped discussion about dredging by georger, and what I posted must have caused some, unknown to me, but pre-emptive damage to your poorly veiled attempt at some sort of legitimacy. Why would georger AND Robert99 need to announce how they have had long, private discussions on this ‘spontaneous’ subject? Theatrics.

Count me permanently out of any type of charade or butthole puppetry. Between RobertMBlevins and Skyjack71, I get more than my fill of garbage analysis and faux sincerity. I’m embarrassed that I didn’t see this sooner. Shame on me…. this time.



Not sure what is going on or what this is all about
but there is no 'script' on my part about anything or
with anyone. Hmmmm. Guess I will figure this out
later.

To Robt99: I had no plan for a long dissertation on
the dredging. Not sure what you have in mind or
expect, from me? Tonight? Oh! Far had asked
about previous research on dredging along the
Columbia (last night) and I said I would come back
and say more tonight - that was my only plan, if
anyone cares? But no script made for it ...

IN FACT THE ONLY REASON IM HERE is I have a break
and a moment, have been at Tom's website which I
see has been highly revised since the last time I
was there.

I went to Toms site looking for his comments about
print bleeds (exact stacking of bills) but could not
find anything about that? Maybe I need another
pair of glasses but I cant find it - does anyone
knows where it is exactly, under MONEY, under Tina
Bar, maybe he removed that Sasquatch?

If anyone knows post a note here. I will be back
later tonight.

Carry on!

IO really would like to find Toms exact comments
about his socalled print-exact lineup btwn bills - if
its even on his website? I want to know what "bills"
he's talking about ??? The three bills he received
originally (sent by Carr), other bills he looked at in
Seattle .... WTF are you talking about Tom!?

I hope you are not using a sample of 3 bills as
representative of all the bundles, all the cash,
what are you talking about?

G.



Please explain to Farflung and others where the dredging was done and not done, and where the resulting material was put and not put.

Robert99

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Farflung reluctantly reposts what he thought was so simple as to be… self evident:

“Here’s the starting point, official or otherwise:

Centerline, infinitely small point, V-23.

Money release point, anywhere along V-23 centerline, and over the Columbia River.


End of data. END…. THE E-N-D The only extra would be from inference, bias or voodoo, at this moment. End of model. There is no more. “In the beginning……:” blah, blah, blah “Amen.”




This is the simplest design to deliver some money to Tena Bar. Agreed? Yes/No?

If No, What is a simpler solution? Present it.

If Yes, what data set would move or modify the original points?

You must have a source, no more ‘because I say so’ or wishful thinking.”



Where do I begin Robert99? You say you have a better answer, I don’t doubt that for a second, but many others will. How do we arrive at the Columbia flowing uphill? Via science? Careful analysis? Or goof-ball shooting from the hip, derived from a non-systemic approach, driven by desired results? Who was it that said the 727 was the only commercial plane with aft stairs? (Hint it was you)

Do you see any mention in the “Farflung Fear and Diarrhea Inducing Model of Cooper’s Jump” of altitude? Any mention at all? How in your ‘enlightened’ world would adding this layer of complexity be simpler, from my original comment?

What specifically (quote a little bit, not a Jo amount) put such a bee in your bonnet?

IF (IF), I said IF (IF AGAIN), I was tasked as a private sector designer, to propose the simplest system, to deliver money to Tena Bar, using known data (cleared take off, SEA-TAC via V-frigging23), it would be a single drop, from V-23, over the Columbia.

My first question was….. Is this the simplest design? You apparently felt it wasn’t.

Next, I asked for a similar process outline, which is simpler. You didn’t oblige.

But I did get to read about a bunch of crap that would be removed from the equation as it adds no value. I’m not trying to design a $1600 toilet seat here.

Why is this so complex? I imagine you are blinded by your bias, and an unfounded fear that if you agree with what I said, it will make that some de facto answer, and thrust you into a parallel universe. In case you haven’t noticed, all the time travel happens on this thread, thanks to people who must be truly terrifying to be around in person. The basic starting point is NOT (NO GAWD DAMN IT) an answer, but it is derived from available, public and published data AND is plausible. That’s fawking all.

But by all means, talk about how the plane was cleared to be ‘anywhere’, like Guam or Christmas Island, because there are no sanity checks, just Sasquatches digging holes on riverbanks with milk buckets. There is NO MENTION OF DREDGING either. Why all the non-sequitur inclusion? Steering something?



PS- georger, You clearly weren’t doing any manipulation or steering, sorry about including you. I had much higher expectations from people claiming to be college educated problem solvers. Again, I blew it with that assumption. I should have waited for more data.

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Good idea Mrshutter45, here’s some charts with V-23 depicted in a funky blue. One chart is from the FBI and the other is the modern model from today.

Even with the ‘odd’ location points which appear to serpentine like a snake, wildly passing back and forth over V-23 in a near random trail; close analysis shows just what a red herring this can be.

Lines of latitude best represent distance. I marked off five (5) such lines which represent one (1) nautical mile (6076 feet) each, for a sense of scale. I did this in order to try a little fear containment before the wheels spin off the Cooper Honey Bucket wagon.

The FAA surveys and certifies Victor Airways to be free of obstacles, and capable of receiving signals for an area of four (4) nautical miles either side centerline. This also roughly approximates what a pilot would consider minimum competence in regard to radio navigation.

So what does the FBI chart indicate about the flight path of 305? Nothing dramatic at all (insert dramatic scream, while clasping head) with the plane pretty much following V-23 to a standard which would satisfy any check instructor or FAA examiner. So where does all the angst originate?

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The luminaries on the thread who are stumbling over themselves to embrace the "official" flight path need to explain exactly which "official" flight path they are talking about.

Do you agree with the flight path shown on the FBI maps, the one where the controller has told several people that the airliner flew "right down the centerline of V-23", the one shown on some illustrations (which may or may not be "official") and supported by some people on this thread indicating the airliner passed east of Portland, the segmented circle bypassing Portland on the west side shown on the FBI maps, or whatever?



I haven't been here while stumbling over myself, but let me offer a possibility since someone now seems interested in the flightpath topic. I say the "official" flight path is the one shown in the plot Sluggo obtained from the FBI and made available on his website. It is not the "red point, blue point" (actually, stickpin symbol) image you analyzed. That image was produced from the FBI-provided original. In producing that image, essentially all the actual plots were obliterated/obscured.


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In addition to specifying a actual flight path, rather than just a generic "official" one, please indicate the locations of the radar(s) that were used to determine the claimed flight path, the accuracy of the radar(s), how the positions shown were determined, and where on god's green earth those times shown on the FBI charts came from.



The part of the flight path we've been concerned with was produced from data from just one radar site: Mt. Hebo, OR. Two other sites were the sources for parts of the flight over central and southern Oregon. The site at Blaine, WA was too far away since it was at a low elevation and flight 305 was also too low when it was closest to Blaine, just out of SEATAC. The site at Othello had its view blocked by a ridge to its west.

The data coming from the radar site came in increments of .088° (1 4096th of a full circle) for azimuth and .25nm for range. If the likely errors were more than two times these values, the designers would simply have decreased the resolution of the data. There is no point in transmitting data to a precision of 1 if the data is only accurate to 8, for example. The direction center at McChord could have smoothed the data to get better accuracy.

But the coordinate data used to plot the FBI plot didn't necessarily take full advantage of the accuracy of the data the airforce had available. The data from which the plot was made was rounded to whole minutes of latitude and longitude. So the actual accuracy of the plots is ±.5 minutes of latitude and longitude. This was the source of the incorrect info about the '72 searchzone map to the effect that the accuracy was ±.5 nautical miles (should have been .5nm for N-S, but .347nm for E-W).

The positions were determined by computations, almost certainly by the airforce 84th radar evaluation squadron, using the coordinates and associated time stamps obtained from the Mt. Hebo site, plus the surveyed location of the Mt. Hebo site and the earth model of the time. The 84th had, and still has, a detachment at McChord and doing such analyses was part of their official functions and still is today. The McChord direction center just used the SAGE system in their normal function of tracking practically everything bigger than a piper or cessna. They did not analyze the system or data from it.

The times would have come from the 84th's output data listing, but someone made a mistake in annotating times onto the charts.

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If you are fortunate, you will come up with an "official" flight path that is several miles wide (right or left of the flight path centerline) and maybe pinpoint the airliner's position within plus or minus five miles along that flight path for a given time. But don't rely on the times and positions on the "official" FBI charts for reasons that were explained elsewhere years ago.



The flightpath range is only .7 nautical miles wide. The positions are quite reliable within the limits of the rounding errors, but better accuracy would be very helpful. Unfortunately, the system that produced the data didn't need any better. All they needed was to be able to get planes close enough to see "bogies" visually or on their own radars. The times are a bit more problematic.

The times and positions on the FBI charts are reliable if you are aware of the limitations of the data. Analyze the actual charts, not the graphics someone made based on the charts.

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And while you are at it, please explain the segmented flight path on the west side of Portland, its purpose, and who dreamed up the idea of doing it that way. I have never met a pilot who would do something like that under the conditions the airliner was operating at that time.



Not having been there and participated in the decision with the crew, I don't know why. Since you were there, tell us what conditions the crew was operating under. Had they just been considering (with NWA management) whether or not to land at PDX (their first alternate landing site) since they thought they had just rid themselves of Cooper? What was the short path back to V23 south of Portland?

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But at the present time there is no high quality data extant for the actual flight path and times along that flight path from about 20 nautical miles south of Seattle until the airliner is near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California.



It doesn't locate down to yards at seconds, but it would take a monumental stretch to put them near Tena Bar.

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One minor point, Farf.

The chart you showed is not the chart from the FBI.

Someone took the chart from the FBI, added red and blue stickpin symbols and a big blue line that obscured the plotted points on the original from the FBI, plus some misleading notations about "estimated" positions, then saved it in lower resolution than the original from the FBI.

The actual charts from the FBI are at Sluggo's site along with these garbage charts.

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Farflung writes:

Where do I begin Robert99? You say you have a better answer, I don’t doubt that for a second, but many others will. How do we arrive at the Columbia flowing uphill? Via science? Careful analysis? Or goof-ball shooting from the hip, derived from a non-systemic approach, driven by desired results? Who was it that said the 727 was the only commercial plane with aft stairs? (Hint it was you)

R99 replies:

As mentioned in an earlier post, a good starting place would be to read both the Seattle and Oakland ATC radio transcripts.

I didn't say I had a better answer, I said I had a simpler answer than the one you proposed. What can be simpler than a straight fall from the aircraft?

Every time I have seen it, the Columbia River was flowing down hill. Keep in mind that the typical daily height of the Columbia at Tena Bar is about 5 to 7 feet ASL (repeat, Above Sea Level) with a daily tidal fluctuation of less than 2 feet.

During spring snow melt and other such things, the level of the Columbia does increase. But the highest point of land at Tena Bar is probably less than 25 feet above sea level.

If anyone said that the 727 was the only commercial plane with aft stairs, it wasn't me. I had flown on the 727 and a number of other commercial aircraft that had aft stairs prior to the hijacking.

Farflung writes:

How in your ‘enlightened’ world would adding this layer of complexity be simpler, from my original comment?

What specifically (quote a little bit, not a Jo amount) put such a bee in your bonnet?

IF (IF), I said IF (IF AGAIN), I was tasked as a private sector designer, to propose the simplest system, to deliver money to Tena Bar, using known data (cleared take off, SEA-TAC via V-frigging23), it would be a single drop, from V-23, over the Columbia.

R99 replies:

I removed at least one layer of complexity from your suggestion.

I don't have a bee in my bonnet or even a bonnet.

V-23 only crosses the Columbia about 4 miles west of the Portland airport. From there it is a 5 to 10 mile trip downstream to Tena Bar.

Farflung writes:

My first question was….. Is this the simplest design? You apparently felt it wasn’t.

Next, I asked for a similar process outline, which is simpler. You didn’t oblige.

But I did get to read about a bunch of crap that would be removed from the equation as it adds no value. I’m not trying to design a $1600 toilet seat here.

R99 replies:

The first two remarks have already been addressed.

It is necessary to read the "bunch of crap" to understand the air traffic control conditions under which the aircraft was operating. It was not operating under a strict flight plan and that must remain in the equation.

Farflung writes:

Why is this so complex? I imagine you are blinded by your bias, and an unfounded fear that if you agree with what I said, it will make that some de facto answer, and thrust you into a parallel universe. In case you haven’t noticed, all the time travel happens on this thread, thanks to people who must be truly terrifying to be around in person. The basic starting point is NOT (NO GAWD DAMN IT) an answer, but it is derived from available, public and published data AND is plausible. That’s fawking all.

But by all means, talk about how the plane was cleared to be ‘anywhere’, like Guam or Christmas Island, because there are no sanity checks, just Sasquatches digging holes on riverbanks with milk buckets. There is NO MENTION OF DREDGING either. Why all the non-sequitur inclusion? Steering something?

R99 replies:

It is not inherently complex. I don't believe in parallel universes and have no fear of agreeing with you. However, in this case I just don't believe it happened the way you propose.

Robert99

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Basically, the "clearance" was "do whatever you have to do and we will keep people out of your way". .... it was clearly implied that they could depart V-23 if they so desired.



Doesn't mean they WOULD depart much from V23. They were under some control by NWA and some by the wishes of the hijacker. Also, they were not accustomed to VOR airway flying.

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...However, if the FBI flight path charts are to be believed, the airliner did quite a bit of wandering laterally on V-23 during its flight to the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersection and then on to the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC.



One might believe this if one did not understand the info on the FBI flightpath charts. If you put in ±.5 minute tolerance zones centered on the plotted points, a line can be drawn through all the zones with no wandering laterally between SEATAC and the Mayfield intersection other than an approximately 6° drift to the NW entirely consistent with them flying by compass and relying on the erroneous wind report given to them just before departure. (Someone at SEATAC told them from 180 magnetic when it was actually from about 140 magnetic.) This put them a bit N of the airport at Toledo rather than at the intersection.

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The Oakland transcripts depict life and (sic) it was lived in that day. And it is clearly evident that the Seattle ATC transcripts have been "scrubbed" to delete relevant information about the airliner's flight path.



I've studied them. It is not evident to me. Seattle center was quite considerate of the crew's plight and said they would monitor the comms with the company. I think the comms just switched over to the company channel and we have never seen transcript of those comms. I'd almost bet the FBI hasn't either.

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If you feel that the time and position marks on the FBI's charts are correct, then please explain how an aircraft flying at constant speed can travel three miles in one minute and then six miles in the next minute without changing speed or spoofing the clock.



What appears to be random changes in ground distance covered is caused by the fact the positions that were plotted were rounded to whole minutes of latitude and longitude. Unfortunately, such low precision of the data is significant for our problem.

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To summarize the flight path information, no one knows precisely the airliner's position during the time it was in the Portland area.



It is known precisely enough to know that it did not pass near Tena Bar.

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If you accept the FBI's flight path with a segmented circle around the west side of Portland, then please explain why it would not be much simpler to just change course a few degrees to the west earlier and then fly a straight line to a point on V-23 south of Portland.



It would be simpler to change course earlier if they weren't being distracted by finding a nice quiet corner to get Coop to jump, and if they knew well ahead of time that they were just going to bypass their first alternate landing site. They did not plan their entire flight out ahead of time without regard to cooperating with Coop.

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