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DB Cooper

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34 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I was able to watch the History's Greatest Mysteries.  I've definitely seen better shows, but then again any publicity for the case is good.  It did drive some page visits to the Wiki page.  I feel I looked old :)  they did not do makeup. Oh well.

At least no one did this to you!

 

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5 hours ago, georger said:

Math seems to be asking for a psychological evaluation of Cooper? 

No. I am saying that your mutual credentials entitle you both to certain informed opinions about certain aspects of the case. They do not make you each experts on each other. The discourse here is constantly side-tracked and sabotaged by silly personal sniping. 

You both have expertise that makes your point of view worth considering. I wish you'd both stick to that instead of bickering. I mean this on a personal level: I am sincerely interested what both of you have to say. You're both smart and well-informed in your respective areas, and sifting through the dumb internet arguments you both devolve into instead is fatiguing. 

All anyone needs to say is, "I see this differently." A differing interpretation never killed anyone. It's not personal. No one here, even the best-informed, is actually an expert on this hijacking, since there is no way to be an expert about something that is unknown. Everyone here, though, is the world's foremost expert on their own opinions or perspectives about it. It would be great to focus on that.

In general, it's always more constructive to use each other as resources than as punching bags. 

Edited by Math of Insects

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1 hour ago, Math of Insects said:


All anyone needs to say is, "I see this differently." A differing interpretation never killed anyone. It's not personal. No one here, even the best-informed, is actually an expert on this hijacking, since there is no way to be an expert about something that is unknown. Everyone here, though, is the world's foremost expert on their own opinions or perspectives about it. It would be great to focus on that.
 

 

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9 hours ago, georger said:

 But, a few of us actually found R99 impossible to deal with years ago, and the record reflects that.

Anyone who sticks with facts won't have a problem with me.

I have been dealing with Mother Nature since I was a teenager and have found her to be a very unforgiving taskmaster.  That is, you stick to facts or she will deliver your head to you on a silver platter.  She does not like wild speculations or conjectures.  Just the facts!    

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5 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

No. I am saying that your mutual credentials entitle you both to certain informed opinions about certain aspects of the case. They do not make you each experts on each other. The discourse here is constantly side-tracked and sabotaged by silly personal sniping. 

You both have expertise that makes your point of view worth considering. I wish you'd both stick to that instead of bickering. I mean this on a personal level: I am sincerely interested what both of you have to say. You're both smart and well-informed in your respective areas, and sifting through the dumb internet arguments you both devolve into instead is fatiguing. 

All anyone needs to say is, "I see this differently." A differing interpretation never killed anyone. It's not personal. No one here, even the best-informed, is actually an expert on this hijacking, since there is no way to be an expert about something that is unknown. Everyone here, though, is the world's foremost expert on their own opinions or perspectives about it. It would be great to focus on that.

In general, it's always more constructive to use each other as resources than as punching bags. 

The goal is actual information about the hijacker ?  I use the Una Bomber case as an example because a classmate of mine was personally involved in the case, actually knew and interacted with Ted Kaczynski, followed the una bomber case etc.,  but did not know Kaczynski living a few miles away was the Una Bomber, until the FBI broke the case using Ted's Manifesto. Then it all made sense. My friend wrote his book about the case. It took concrete evidence to break the case. All psychological profiling of the una bomber failed until the very end when more concrete information was all but certain. The same will probably apply to the DB Cooper. 

A tangible tip lead to McCoy's identification and capture ... vs. psychological profiling.

At the same time the Cooper hijacking occurred, social science was developing and using The Dictionary of Occupational Titles. I had a copy of the DOT sitting next to my desk in 1971. We used it to try and match Voc Rehab clients with potential job and training programs prior to recommending funding for a client. DB Cooper fits some occupational profile, but which one ? There is no vita for DB Cooper. (A digital version of the DOT still exists today)

(Wally reported) Someone suggested a test during the Flight Test of  N467US suggesting a test that might estimate Cooper's IQ. A discussion ensued and the test was not conducted because of the uncertain methodology being suggested. Tina had failed to get the rear door open and the stairs down - Cooper sent Tina to the front and then got the door open and the stair released himself - light went on in the cockpit. How much intelligence did it take to solve that puzzle and get the rear door open and the stairs released? Tina's IQ is estimated at slightly above 100 - average IQ. Could an average untrained person do it in say 2 or 5 or 10 or 20 minutes? The test was bypassed because nobody was certain what the correlation is between IQ and performance in that test. That test had never been standardised for people to use to estimate with! 

Has anyone ever tried tracing letters to the editor to Cooper? Manifestos? Threat notes? etc It worked in the Una Bomber case - it might just work in the Cooper case ? Several guys talk about this in the new Discovery channel program.

Edited by georger

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2 hours ago, georger said:

Tina's IQ is estimated at slightly above 100 - average IQ.

lol where the hell did you derive this information from? She was reading a giant biography of Mary, Queen of Scots at the time. I don't know any average schmucks who would do that. 

Edited by olemisscub

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4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

lol where the hell did you derive this information from? She was reading a giant biography of Mary, Queen of Scots at the time. I don't know any average schmucks who would do that. 

Its all relative. Wally told us about it. I have no idea where he got it! Not the faintest idea. My impression is during the time the flight test was being planned lots of people were juggling ideas and discussing thoughts and impressions ... the military people were not just standing around taking orders but there were discussions back and forth between the military people, NWA people, the FBI, etc. One gets the picture of complex free flowing discussions happening between all of the parties ......... that informality surprised me a little. 

There was also discussion about Mr Cooper, hijackers, recidivism among hijackers, etc., and would Cooper strike again all based on the theme of a true grudge. When grudges rise to the level of an actual hijacking, grudges dont easily go away?  In your profession you might have some thoughts about that?  Would be interesting to know your thoughts !!!

Edited by georger

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12 hours ago, georger said:

There was also discussion about Mr Cooper, hijackers, recidivism among hijackers, etc., and would Cooper strike again all based on the theme of a true grudge. When grudges rise to the level of an actual hijacking, grudges dont easily go away?  In your profession you might have some thoughts about that?  Would be interesting to know your thoughts !!!

Everyone has a grudge. Most criminals can always blame someone else for influencing their criminal behavior. 

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2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Everyone has a grudge. Most criminals can always blame someone else for influencing their criminal behavior. 

The 'everyone has a grudge' theory. The mass of men live lives of quiet desperation. Goldfinger. He's the man, the man with the Midas touch. A spider's touch. Such a cold finger. Beckons you to enter his web of sin. But don't go in. Stay home and wash the dishes instead! That is the only choice you have. Cooper could not control his hormones.

And Rataczak saved the Golden Maiden. (from herself!) ?

The plot thickens. There is a secret flight path, a western flight path, that authorities unnamed have hidden all these years! The pure and uncorrupted know it because only they can sense it! The just and uncorrupted will triumph in the end ... so touch the stone of redemption and take on this knowledge. All you have to lose is your chains. Seeing makes one free.

Edited by georger

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2 hours ago, georger said:

The 'everyone has a grudge' theory. The mass of men live lives of quiet desperation. Goldfinger. He's the man, the man with the Midas touch. A spider's touch. Such a cold finger. Beckons you to enter his web of sin. But don't go in. Stay home and wash the dishes instead! That is the only choice you have. Cooper could not control his hormones.

And Rataczak saved the Golden Maiden. (from herself!) ?

The plot thickens. There is a secret flight path, a western flight path, that authorities unnamed have hidden all these years! The pure and uncorrupted know it because only they can sense it! The just and uncorrupted will triumph in the end ... so touch the stone of redemption and take on this knowledge. All you have to lose is your chains. Seeing makes one free.

The only thing secret about the Western Flight Path is that the actual Seattle air traffic control communications have been heavily redacted.

As you have repeatedly been informed over the last 14 years, if you want to know how the Seattle air traffic control communications should look all you have to do is look at the Oakland Center's communications with the aircraft.

The Oakland Center's and Reno Tower's communications are textbook examples of how things were done in 1971.

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2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

The only thing secret about the Western Flight Path is that the actual Seattle air traffic control communications have been heavily redacted.

As you have repeatedly been informed over the last 14 years, if you want to know how the Seattle air traffic control communications should look all you have to do is look at the Oakland Center's communications with the aircraft.

The Oakland Center's and Reno Tower's communications are textbook examples of how things were done in 1971.

And that has what to do with the accuracy of the Air Force’s radar readings?

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4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

And that has what to do with the accuracy of the Air Force’s radar readings?

Basically, the airliner's onboard navigational instruments will provide a more accurate determination of its position than the Air Force's radar.  The USAF radar was located at McChord AFB and was probably the same radar that the Seattle Center's Air Traffic Control personnel were using.

The airliner had two VOR receivers, two DME receivers, and two ADF receivers plus some additional avionics such as a Marker Beacon Receiver.

When Rataczak told the Seattle air traffic controller to "mark his shrimp boats", which is a term that I have never heard before in civilian air traffic control, he implied that he didn't know his own location and that he was off the airways.  Otherwise, he could have simply said "we are XX miles from YYY VORTAC and on radial ZZZ" and the controller would have instantly known where he was and with greater precision than anything from radar blips.

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6 hours ago, olemisscub said:

And that has what to do with the accuracy of the Air Force’s radar readings?

You are missing several crucial points required before you can process this issue.

1. You must come to this issue with *faithe*.  Faithe in everything R99 and Ulis may say. Every word is crucial. Record every syllable R99 prints and play it back later many many many times.

2. R99 has said the FAA has the missing documents which will prove a west path. So you must get the FAA to release that secret documents, or documents. That may take a Presidential or a Congressional order. Good luck with that.

3. Assuming the FAA does release its secret document(s), assuming those docs even exist, then the document(s) may not say  what 88 and Ulis say they must say. Faith now become a critical factor again. 

4. You must believe every word R99 and Ulis say, without any hesitation or impure spirit or doubt.

5. Or, you can wait for some other development in the DB Cooper case - which is doubtful. It may take forever.

6. But, you must dismiss and not even consider any and all other evidence however remotely connected to this flight path issue (Tena Bar money, hydrology,  evaluations and post by other people, visions and posts on this topic by others including this one, ...). You cannot stray from the Word as given by R99/Ulis. They are the only people on Earth with the credentials to speak on this matter. ..

Have your loved ones take photos of you before this journey starts so they will remember you as you once were before entering this Black Hole.

Good luck with your journey.

Report back if you can. Goldstone has instruments recording your journey and will issue updates to CNN every month .... if nothing is heard from you in five years this mission may be terminated and services for you held ...

I am not kidding. This is only the beginning of your journey with R99 and Ulis! Good luck. 

PS: Oh! and funding for this mission may end without notice. You will have to make your own arrangements regarding that .... no help with that is available. Likewise, R99 and Ulis are free to change or revise their theories/accounts at any time.

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Basically, the airliner's onboard navigational instruments will provide a more accurate determination of its position than the Air Force's radar.  The USAF radar was located at McChord AFB and was probably the same radar that the Seattle Center's Air Traffic Control personnel were using.

The airliner had two VOR receivers, two DME receivers, and two ADF receivers plus some additional avionics such as a Marker Beacon Receiver.

When Rataczak told the Seattle air traffic controller to "mark his shrimp boats", which is a term that I have never heard before in civilian air traffic control, he implied that he didn't know his own location and that he was off the airways.  Otherwise, he could have simply said "we are XX miles from YYY VORTAC and on radial ZZZ" and the controller would have instantly known where he was and with greater precision than anything from radar blips.

Edwards explained the phrase 'shripmboats'  .... did you not read it and agree?

Are Edwards credentials inferior to yours?

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9 hours ago, Robert99 said:

When Rataczak told the Seattle air traffic controller to "mark his shrimp boats", which is a term that I have never heard before in civilian air traffic control, he implied that he didn't know his own location and that he was off the airways.  Otherwise, he could have simply said "we are XX miles from YYY VORTAC and on radial ZZZ" and the controller would have instantly known where he was and with greater precision than anything from radar blips.

It’s my belief that Rat never made such a statement. This is something he came up with afterward. His FBI interview that night indicates he didn’t notify anyone about it in real time nor did he take exact note of where it was.

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3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

It’s my belief that Rat never made such a statement. This is something he came up with afterward. His FBI interview that night indicates he didn’t notify anyone about it in real time nor did he take exact note of where it was.

IMG_7117.jpeg

It is surprising that the crew didn't record their location when they thought Cooper had jumped since they had been told to flash their navigation lights when he did.

The airliner did have two knotted ropes (not ladders) in the cockpit for the crew to exit thru the cockpit windows when they couldn't exit thru the cabin.  These ropes were permanently installed and are included in present day large aircraft.

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1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

It is surprising that the crew didn't record their location when they thought Cooper had jumped since they had been told to flash their navigation lights when he did.

The airliner did have two knotted ropes (not ladders) in the cockpit for the crew to exit thru the cockpit windows when they couldn't exit thru the cabin.  These ropes were permanently installed and are included in present day large aircraft.

Edwards explained the phrase 'shrimp boats'  .... did you not read it and agree?

Are Edwards credentials inferior to yours?  Is his research flawed regarding shrimp boats ?

Has the west path and promotion of it become a 'cult' ?  A cult requiring special  credentials ?

What other proof do you have of a west path?  The money find?  What about the money find  requires a west path ?  Most of the known mechanisms which could place money at Tena Bar require or involve the area of east of V23,  vs west of V23 ? You previously said "water flows down hill". The Columbia flows east to west by Tena Bar. 

 

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

It is surprising that the crew didn't record their location when they thought Cooper had jumped since they had been told to flash their navigation lights when he did.

By all accounts they assumed he was still on board when they landed in Reno, so maybe they weren’t confident enough that the pressure bump was when he jumped to report it in real time.

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Shrimp Boats - for R99 avionics expert. Let's add to R99's avionics education!

Dr Edwards explained the term Rat used in one of his articles.

The term Rat used derives from the early years of air traffic control.  Rat was being humorous/sarcastic but he was also serious, in his use of the term ! He was telling controllers to mark his position and he was 1000% serious. See: http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2000/mode-s/atc.html

'The controllers determined if there were any conflicts in route or altitude, and modified the flight plan to ensure safe separation of aircraft. When this was completed, the controllers would issue a clearance to the dispatcher and on to the pilot. The air traffic controllers would then write the flight plan information on a chalkboard and a note card, which was attached to a brass holder - the "shrimp boat". The shrimp boat (brass holder with card) was moved along an airway map to approximate the positions of aircraft in the sky, as the pilot called in his position. If the controller detected a potential conflict, it notified the aircraft of appropriate altitude and route changes through the dispatcher. '

Edited by georger

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2 hours ago, georger said:

Edwards explained the phrase 'shrimp boats'  .... did you not read it and agree?

Are Edwards credentials inferior to yours?  Is his research flawed regarding shrimp boats ?

Has the west path and promotion of it become a 'cult' ?  A cult requiring special  credentials ?

What other proof do you have of a west path?  The money find?  What about the money find  requires a west path ?  Most of the known mechanisms which could place money at Tena Bar require or involve the area of east of V23,  vs west of V23 ? You previously said "water flows down hill". The Columbia flows east to west by Tena Bar. 

 

Georger, contrary to your claim the Columbia River does NOT flow "east to west by Tena Bar".

The Columbia River flows south to north at Tena Bar and for several miles both south and north of Tena Bar.

To be more precise, specifically at Tena Bar the Columbia River actually flows at approximately 002 degrees with respect to True North.

If the airliner was on a straight line between the Malay and Canby Intersections, it would have passed about 1000 feet to the west of Tena Bar and would have flown straight down the Columbia River for several miles.

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1 hour ago, georger said:

Shrimp Boats - for R99 avionics expert. Let's add to R99's avionics education!

Dr Edwards explained the term Rat used in one of his articles.

The term Rat used derives from the early years of air traffic control.  Rat was being humorous/sarcastic but he was also serious, in his use of the term ! He was telling controllers to mark his position and he was 1000% serious. See: http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2000/mode-s/atc.html

'The controllers determined if there were any conflicts in route or altitude, and modified the flight plan to ensure safe separation of aircraft. When this was completed, the controllers would issue a clearance to the dispatcher and on to the pilot. The air traffic controllers would then write the flight plan information on a chalkboard and a note card, which was attached to a brass holder - the "shrimp boat". The shrimp boat (brass holder with card) was moved along an airway map to approximate the positions of aircraft in the sky, as the pilot called in his position. If the controller detected a potential conflict, it notified the aircraft of appropriate altitude and route changes through the dispatcher. '

The brass holder with a paper page inserted in it was not a "shrimp boat".  A shrimp boat was something that you may have seen in pictures of the RAF Fighter Command.  The RAF shrimp boats were on a large scale map of Southern England and were moved regularly as the locations of the RAF fighters and German aircraft engaged.

The set-up just described was used to maximize the efficiency of the RAF aircraft and it worked.  The RAF fighters won the Battle of Britian thanks to such command actions and the introduction of radar.

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11 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, contrary to your claim the Columbia River does NOT flow "east to west by Tena Bar".

The Columbia River flows south to north at Tena Bar and for several miles both south and north of Tena Bar.

To be more precise, specifically at Tena Bar the Columbia River actually flows at approximately 002 degrees with respect to True North.

If the airliner was on a straight line between the Malay and Canby Intersections, it would have passed about 1000 feet to the west of Tena Bar and would have flown straight down the Columbia River for several miles.

You are correct.

tina bar medium.JPG

Edited by georger

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6 hours ago, Robert99 said:

The brass holder with a paper page inserted in it was not a "shrimp boat".  A shrimp boat was something that you may have seen in pictures of the RAF Fighter Command.  The RAF shrimp boats were on a large scale map of Southern England and were moved regularly as the locations of the RAF fighters and German aircraft engaged.

The set-up just described was used to maximize the efficiency of the RAF aircraft and it worked.  The RAF fighters won the Battle of Britian thanks to such command actions and the introduction of radar.

'Radar wasn’t common until 1940 when the British were dealing with German air traffic over London. Before radar—which really didn’t make the ATC scene with great effect until the 1960s—controllers hovered over maps and plotted airliner progress as dispatchers phoned in position reports. Direct pilot-to-center radio communication wasn’t available until 1949.

Controllers tracked aircraft progress with small “shrimp boats” pushed across the map. Each represented an airplane and had a clip holding a slip of paper with the call sign and altitude. Shrimp boats would serve well into the radar age on flat-top radar displays. Before digital data tags, controllers wrote aircraft data on the plastic data tags and gently nudged them across the scope.'   https://www.avweb.com/recent-updates/business-military/atc-history/

 

99 why dont you write the difinitive history on the topic. 

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