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DB Cooper

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8 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Have you seen the interview between Ammerman and Ulis?  It includes a discussion of the accuracy of ATC radar systems.  And Ammerman said the accuracy was miles and that is typical for the 1971 time frame.

Also, remember that Ammerman was a controller for the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center and not a Portland Airport tower controller.

Yes, I know who Ammerman is, which is why I posted the Portland ATC guy: 305 was right on top of him and the accuracy would have been damn near spot on.

As for Ammerman, he very clearly stated at CC last year, sitting just a few feet from me, that Flight 305 never left the confines of V-23 and if it had he would have alerted someone. 

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43 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Yes, I know who Ammerman is, which is why I posted the Portland ATC guy: 305 was right on top of him and the accuracy would have been damn near spot on.

As for Ammerman, he very clearly stated at CC last year, sitting just a few feet from me, that Flight 305 never left the confines of V-23 and if it had he would have alerted someone. 

And I presume that you are aware that V-23 extended five statute miles on each side of its centerline in 1971.  At the present time, Victor Airways are only 4 nautical miles (4.6 statute miles) wide.

That is a lot of space considering the accuracy of the radar that Ammerman related to Ulis.

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28 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

And I presume that you are aware that V-23 extended five statute miles on each side of its centerline in 1971.  At the present time, Victor Airways are only 4 nautical miles (4.6 statute miles) wide.

That is a lot of space considering the accuracy of the radar that Ammerman related to Ulis.

Yep. Very much aware. And that 302 is from the guy who literally watched it on his radar and he said it was 1-2 miles EAST of the center of V-23. 

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40 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Yep. Very much aware. And that 302 is from the guy who literally watched it on his radar and he said it was 1-2 miles EAST of the center of V-23. 

Is there a transcription of the actual exchange between Ammerman and Ulis? Who says what ? Ulis is pushing A to say what he wants A to say ... but A never says 305 flew over Tea Bar.

All of this is old newz...  Ulis even asks A how big the radar plot symbols are on the screen, how many MILES big .... Ulis is pushing A to come up with anything Ulis can use!  

Edited by georger

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8 minutes ago, georger said:

Is there a transcription of the actual exchange between Ammerman and Ulis? Who says what ? Ulis is pushing A to say what he wants A to say ...

From History's Greatest Mysteries, 2020:

Ammerman: We knew it was a hijacking. We didn't have a flight plan on it because nobody knew exactly what the routing was going to be. So we were told "Just follow him. Keep everybody else away from him." It became fairly obvious that he was on Victor-23.

Ulis: The first priority here when tackling this case is trying to figure out the path that the jet took. Can you gauge precisely how you could identify the exact location of Flight 305?

Ammerman: Yeah. What I'm looking at is a map on a video screen. Aircraft are being presented in what would look to you like an equal sign. On the leading slash, the aircraft itself could be anyplace on that line. So it could be in the center, it might be at the left side of the line, it might be at the right side. We don't know. 

Ulis: Any idea of roughly what kind of distance you're looking at there? 

Ammerman: I would guess four to five nautical miles long, that line is.

Ulis: How do you know that he's actually within Victor 23 if you've got sort of that much play there?

Ammerman: Sure. It's very uncertain just exactly where the airplane was within that target area that we're seeing. 

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5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

From History's Greatest Mysteries, 2020:

Ammerman: We knew it was a hijacking. We didn't have a flight plan on it because nobody knew exactly what the routing was going to be. So we were told "Just follow him. Keep everybody else away from him." It became fairly obvious that he was on Victor-23.

Ulis: The first priority here when tackling this case is trying to figure out the path that the jet took. Can you gauge precisely how you could identify the exact location of Flight 305?

Ammerman: Yeah. What I'm looking at is a map on a video screen. Aircraft are being presented in what would look to you like an equal sign. On the leading slash, the aircraft itself could be anyplace on that line. So it could be in the center, it might be at the left side of the line, it might be at the right side. We don't know. 

Ulis: Any idea of roughly what kind of distance you're looking at there? 

Ammerman: I would guess four to five nautical miles long, that line is.

Ulis: How do you know that he's actually within Victor 23 if you've got sort of that much play there?

Ammerman: Sure. It's very uncertain just exactly where the airplane was within that target area that we're seeing. 

We need a plot of 305 against the scale of the Solar System or the Universe!  ^.^   305 could have flown near/over Jupiter !  Ulis is playing games with this.

Edited by georger

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16 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

From History's Greatest Mysteries, 2020:

Ammerman: We knew it was a hijacking. We didn't have a flight plan on it because nobody knew exactly what the routing was going to be. So we were told "Just follow him. Keep everybody else away from him." It became fairly obvious that he was on Victor-23.

Ulis: The first priority here when tackling this case is trying to figure out the path that the jet took. Can you gauge precisely how you could identify the exact location of Flight 305?

Ammerman: Yeah. What I'm looking at is a map on a video screen. Aircraft are being presented in what would look to you like an equal sign. On the leading slash, the aircraft itself could be anyplace on that line. So it could be in the center, it might be at the left side of the line, it might be at the right side. We don't know. 

Ulis: Any idea of roughly what kind of distance you're looking at there? 

Ammerman: I would guess four to five nautical miles long, that line is.

Ulis: How do you know that he's actually within Victor 23 if you've got sort of that much play there?

Ammerman: Sure. It's very uncertain just exactly where the airplane was within that target area that we're seeing. 

And somewhere along the way, perhaps in this same video or elsewhere, Captain Scott is quoted as saying that the airliner was further west than the searchers were estimating.

Since the first of this year, Dr. Robert Edwards has made several posts on his blog about the flight path.  In the last one, he pointed out that the flight path was repeatedly moved further west with each new estimate.  He also indicated that he planned another post on the subject but that has not happened as of today as far as I can tell.

Dr. Edwards' posts are extremely interesting to me and I will explain what I am talking about if he doesn't make that promised post in the next few days.

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2 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

In the last one, he pointed out that the flight path was repeatedly moved further west with each new estimate. 

Only marginally. The final flight path determination that they used in March 73 was still EAST of the center line of V-23. 

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1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

And somewhere along the way, perhaps in this same video or elsewhere, Captain Scott is quoted as saying that the airliner was further west than the searchers were estimating.

Since the first of this year, Dr. Robert Edwards has made several posts on his blog about the flight path.  In the last one, he pointed out that the flight path was repeatedly moved further west with each new estimate.  He also indicated that he planned another post on the subject but that has not happened as of today as far as I can tell.

Dr. Edwards' posts are extremely interesting to me and I will explain what I am talking about if he doesn't make that promised post in the next few days.

That could happen, some day, sometime. Anything is possible!  Even cows flying over the Moon dropping $20 dollar bills!

But, the SIZE OF THE PLOT ON A RADAR SCREEN is artificial, and NOT an indicator of actual 'position' ! You might as well use the size of the door knobs in the room! That claim by Ulis is total nonsense. Its an idea that only a huckster would come up with!  That is 'casino trickery' meant to stack the odds in favor of the House, and the House is Ulis trying to maneuver Ammerman into a position Ulis wants! The answers Ulis wants.

That is the Putin premise: Nothing is true and everything is possible!

In addition - the size of plots/images on a radar screen are adjustable to the users needs/wants. So when Ulis asks about the SIZE of the 305 plot, he might have also asked: which knob adjusts the size? That probably never dawned on him. :D Moreover R99 is well aware of this and has left it out of the discussion, socalled. Has anyone here ever run an oscilloscope or a radar screen ?  

The size of the plot for 305 and other planes on any radar screen was not a precise metric. Which is actually kind of funny. Its like a mistake a child would make (assume).   

Which raises the question: did Ammerman have controls where he could switch between screen resolutions? And did he switch resolutions at any point while following 305 etal ?

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, georger said:

That could happen, some day, sometime. Anything is possible!  Even cows flying over the Moon dropping $20 dollar bills!

But, the SIZE OF THE PLOT ON A RADAR SCREEN is artificial, and NOT an indicator of actual 'position' ! You might as well use the size of the door knobs in the room! That claim by Ulis is total nonsense. Its an idea that only a huckster would come up with!  That is 'casino trickery' meant to stack the odds in favor of the House, and the House is Ulis trying to maneuver Ammerman into a position Ulis wants! The answers Ulis wants.

That is the Putin premise: Nothing is true and everything is possible!

In addition - the size of plots/images on a radar screen are adjustable to the users needs/wants. So when Ulis asks about the SIZE of the 305 plot, he might have also asked: which knob adjusts the size? That probably never dawned on him. :D Moreover R99 is well aware of this and has left it out of the discussion, socalled. Has anyone here ever run an oscilloscope or a radar screen ?  

The size of the plot for 305 and other planes on any radar screen was not a precise metric. Which is actually kind of funny. Its like a mistake a child would make (assume).   

Which raises the question: did Ammerman have controls where he could switch between screen resolutions? And did he switch resolutions at any point while following 305 etal ?

More wishful thinking from Georger who has probably never seen a radar screen.

I expect that Ammerman knew what he was talking about, including scale sizes (i.e., ranges), when he discussed the matter with Ulis.

For Georger's benefit, there is a discussion in the Oakland transcripts on the subject of ranges when the Oakland controller was trying to hand off the aircraft to the Reno controller.  The Oakland controller told the Reno controller to set his screen to its maximum range and told him where to look for the airliner.  Initially, the Reno controller couldn't spot the airliner but finally did so after a few minutes.

Georger now claims that the blip on the radar screen is not an indicator of the actual aircraft position.  That is a very mysterious allegation.  Is radar voodo?

Edited by Robert99

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1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

More wishful thinking from Georger who has probably never seen a radar screen.

I expect that Ammerman knew what he was talking about, including scale sizes (i.e., ranges), when he discussed the matter with Ulis.

For Georger's benefit, there is a discussion in the Oakland transcripts on the subject of ranges when the Oakland controller was trying to hand off the aircraft to the Reno controller.  The Oakland controller told the Reno controller to set his screen to its maximum range and told him where to look for the airliner.  Initially, the Reno controller couldn't spot the airliner but finally did so after a few minutes.

Georger now claims that the blip on the radar screen is not an indicator of the actual aircraft position.  That is a very mysterious allegation.  Is radar voodo?

I never said any such thing - 

So, list the ranges and resolutions (areas covered) etc Ammerman used during his control of 305 etal ? Give us blip size vs area at each resolution. You use the term 'ranges'. Tell how blip (symbol) size changes with each different resolution/range? Huh? Huh?  What range and blip size are we seeing during the Ammerman/Ulis questioning?  Are the examples shown us in the A/Ulis segment the same images A actually saw during the time period Ulis is asking about?

Where on the FlightPath is 305 in the radar image History showd us during the Ulis/Amm. segment? I will bet neither you or Ulis knows! Was that image anywhere near Tena Bar?

My guess is Robt, you dont know squat about this! Surprise us for a change. Get off your throne !

 

Edited by georger

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6 minutes ago, georger said:

I never said any such thing - 

So, list the ranges and resolutions (areas covered) etc Ammerman used during his control of 305 etal ? Give us blip size vs area at each resolution. You use the term 'ranges'. Tell how blip (symbol) size changes with each different resolution/range? Huh? Huh?  What range and blip size are we seeing during the Ammerman/Ulis questioning?  Are the examples shown us in the A/Ulis segment the same images A actually saw during the time period Ulis is asking about?

My guess is Robt, you dont know squat about this! Surprise us for a change. 

 

Georger, you did say that.  You said it in your post #61163 and it was included in my post #61164.  These posts are just above you post #61165 and you should be able to find them without much trouble.

Why don't you ask Ammerman for the information on the radar consoles that he was using in 1971?

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7 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, you did say that.  You said it in your post #61163 and it was included in my post #61164.  These posts are just above you post #61165 and you should be able to find them without much trouble.

Why don't you ask Ammerman for the information on the radar consoles that he was using in 1971?

ok ... you will never contribute anything to the DB Cooper case! :D

Edited by georger

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12 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, what have you actually contributed to the Cooper case?  Just a lot of misinformation and nothing else.

Then why do you keep attacking me - for years! Are you jealous of me or obsessed with me personally? What's the nature of your obsession going on now for years ?  We went through this crap with Jo Weber and then  Robert Blevins .... there is nothing about the DB Cooper case that requires obsessive-compulsive behavior or extremism!

What's your connection to the Cooper case? Any? Do you have any tangible connection to the case? Family that were involved in the State of Washington or anywhere else? A relative in the FBI or Law Enforcement who worked on the case? Anything ?

You have always claimed 'special credentials in avionics et-cetera'  you say no one else has to bring to the case?

It must be your personality ?  What else could it be ?          

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Thanks to OleMiss for copying this!

From History's Greatest Mysteries, 2020:

Ammerman: We knew it was a hijacking. We didn't have a flight plan on it because nobody knew exactly what the routing was going to be. So we were told "Just follow him. Keep everybody else away from him." It became fairly obvious that he was on Victor-23.

Ulis: The first priority here when tackling this case is trying to figure out the path that the jet took. Can you gauge precisely how you could identify the exact location of Flight 305?

Ammerman: Yeah. What I'm looking at is a map on a video screen. Aircraft are being presented in what would look to you like an equal sign. On the leading slash, the aircraft itself could be anyplace on that line. So it could be in the center, it might be at the left side of the line, it might be at the right side. We don't know. 

Ulis: Any idea of roughly what kind of distance you're looking at there? 

Ammerman: I would guess four to five nautical miles long, that line is.

Ulis: How do you know that he's actually within Victor 23 if you've got sort of that much play there?

Ammerman: Sure. It's very uncertain just exactly where the airplane was within that target area that we're seeing. 

 

Conclusion:

On the leading slash, the aircraft itself could be anyplace on that line. So it could be in the center, it might be at the left side of the line, it might be at the right side. We don't know. 

It's very uncertain just exactly where the airplane was within that target area that we're seeing. 

:eyes:

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1 hour ago, georger said:

Then why do you keep attacking me - for years! Are you jealous of me or obsessed with me personally? What's the nature of your obsession going on now for years ?  We went through this crap with Jo Weber and then  Robert Blevins .... there is nothing about the DB Cooper case that requires obsessive-compulsive behavior or extremism!

What's your connection to the Cooper case? Any? Do you have any tangible connection to the case? Family that were involved in the State of Washington or anywhere else? A relative in the FBI or Law Enforcement who worked on the case? Anything ?

You have always claimed 'special credentials in avionics et-cetera'  you say no one else has to bring to the case?

It must be your personality ?  What else could it be ?          

My aviation background has been online since about 2009 as you well know.  However, you have been very secretive about your own background and apparently don't have any aviation knowledge or experience. 

Just exactly what is your own background in aviation or anything else?

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1 hour ago, georger said:

Thanks to OleMiss for copying this!

From History's Greatest Mysteries, 2020:

Ammerman: We knew it was a hijacking. We didn't have a flight plan on it because nobody knew exactly what the routing was going to be. So we were told "Just follow him. Keep everybody else away from him." It became fairly obvious that he was on Victor-23.

Ulis: The first priority here when tackling this case is trying to figure out the path that the jet took. Can you gauge precisely how you could identify the exact location of Flight 305?

Ammerman: Yeah. What I'm looking at is a map on a video screen. Aircraft are being presented in what would look to you like an equal sign. On the leading slash, the aircraft itself could be anyplace on that line. So it could be in the center, it might be at the left side of the line, it might be at the right side. We don't know. 

Ulis: Any idea of roughly what kind of distance you're looking at there? 

Ammerman: I would guess four to five nautical miles long, that line is.

Ulis: How do you know that he's actually within Victor 23 if you've got sort of that much play there?

Ammerman: Sure. It's very uncertain just exactly where the airplane was within that target area that we're seeing. 

 

Conclusion:

On the leading slash, the aircraft itself could be anyplace on that line. So it could be in the center, it might be at the left side of the line, it might be at the right side. We don't know. 

It's very uncertain just exactly where the airplane was within that target area that we're seeing. 

:eyes:

Georger, why did you repost this?  This is exactly what you were arguing against just a few posts ago.

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22 hours ago, Robert99 said:

My aviation background has been online since about 2009 as you well know.  However, you have been very secretive about your own background and apparently don't have any aviation knowledge or experience. 

Just exactly what is your own background in aviation or anything else?

I may address this nonsense later tonight when I have time.

Essentially, I come from a family of engineers, educators, and military people. My father retired from the USAF at a base in Georgia in 1966; my mother served until 1944. All of my uncles served during WWII. My step father was an engineer with Paton, landed at Normandy, and went all the way to Berlin. 

I just find it interesting (if not comical  !) that You and Mr. Ulis claim to have better insight and more information than engineers like Paul Soderlind, the USAF, flight controllers, etal,  concerning not only the flight path of flight 305 but other aspects of the DB Cooper case, in addition to making social judgements and clinical diagnoses of people you two deem competitors on DB Cooper forums, etc !  Those are tall claims !

I sometimes wonder if you guys haven't formed a cult and will soon be announcing 'commandments' from Heaven, in a standoff with the members of the Eddyville Women's Swimming Club ...............  given your superior knowledge and history in  "swimming and quantum mechanics " ?

Give me some time to get to the grocery store and think this over as I move from the meat counter to the vegetable aisle! Maybe I will have a REVELATION ! ???    

Edited by georger

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59 minutes ago, georger said:

I may address this nonsense later tonight when I have time.

Essentially, I come from a family of engineers, educators, and military people. My father retired from the USAF at a base in Georgia in 1966; my mother served until 1944. All of my uncles served during WWII. My step father was an engineer with Paton, landed at Normandy, and went all the way to Berlin. 

I just find it interesting (if not comical  !) that You and Mr. Ulis claim to have better insight and more information than engineers like Paul Soderlind, the USAF, flight controllers, etal,  concerning not only the flight path of flight 305 but other aspects of the DB Cooper case, in addition to making social judgements and clinical diagnoses of people you two deem competitors on DB Cooper forums, etc !  Those are tall claims !

I sometimes wonder if you guys haven't formed a cult and will soon be announcing 'commandments' from Heaven, in a standoff with the members of the Eddyville Women's Swimming Club ...............  given your superior knowledge and history in  "swimming and quantum mechanics " ?

Give me some time to get to the grocery store and think this over as I move from the meat counter to the vegetable aisle! Maybe I will have a REVELATION ! ???    

Georger, you didn't list any aviation background information for yourself.  And you do not acquire an aviation background through DNA.

My brothers and I were still very young when WW2 ended.  But uncles and older cousins served in the military. One cousin was killed in a tank battle in Germany in early 1945.  A friend of the family was killed at Guadalcanal.  Another friend of the family went down with his ship in the North Atlantic. Such things were common to the majority of American families in WW2.

Since WW2 my brothers and I along with other relatives have served in the military.  Most recently, a young nephew served in Afghanistan.

One of my WW2 memories is that I saw one of the Japanese balloon bombs in flight over central Washington State where I lived.  A couple of P-38s were flying around it and shot it down when it got over a sparsely settled area.

As I have related previously, I have been a pilot since the age of 15 and have held several FAA pilot ratings.  I have also held all FAA ground instructor ratings for general aviation that were available when I was active. 

Educationally, I have a BS in Aeronautical Engineering plus two additional college degrees.  Further, I have taken any number of additional college courses in mathematics and engineering related subjects.  I have 300+ graduate and undergraduate college semester hours.

Professionally, I worked as an Aeronautical Engineer for DOD, from which I am retired, primarily in the development of technology for new aircraft concepts.  However, along with about 10,000 other contractor, military, and DOD personnel, I did spend a couple of years on a certain aircraft program that was moving from the YF- demonstrator stage to the F- production stage.  That aircraft is in the news this very day and I hope the Ukrainians get a lot of them.

I have never claimed superiority to any of the people you list.  Conversely, I am fully qualified to do my own analysis on most aviation matters and will seek the advice of specialists in fields that I am not familiar with.  

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37 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Neither of you mentioned any training in psychology or human relations, so perhaps it would be most productive to focus on the aspects your respective impressive backgrounds qualify for you for, instead of on each other?

I am not a psychologist, but I have had training in management which included some human relations training.  And I have had leadership training in the military.

I have stuck to my strongest point in posts here, which is aviation.  As I stated about 14 years ago, I will leave everything that involves looking through a microscope or telescope to other people.  

Edited by Robert99

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2 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

Neither of you mentioned any training in psychology or human relations, so perhaps it would be most productive to focus on the aspects your respective impressive backgrounds qualify for you for, instead of on each other?

Read the thread.

I was licensed by the Iowa DPI as a psychologist-evaluator and testing coordinator 1970-74. It was a total surprise based on course work I had done in grad school... I had taken a job with Voc Rehab.   

I have nothing to match R99's Mishegas.

I recommend that the US Justice Dept and the FBI fire Paul Soderlind and the USAF and hire Robert Nicholson and Eric Ulis, instead. Put George Santos in charge of all DB Cooper discussion, under the authority of ... King Charles and Tucker Carlson.

Amen! 

additional reading ps:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonhard_Euler

Leonhard_Euler_-_edit1.jpg

Edited by georger

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3 hours ago, georger said:

Read the thread.

I was licensed by the Iowa DPI as a psychologist-evaluator and testing coordinator 1970-74. It was a total surprise based on course work I had done in grad school... I had taken a job with Voc Rehab.   

I have nothing to match R99's Mishegas.

I recommend that the US Justice Dept and the FBI fire Paul Soderlind and the USAF and hire Robert Nicholson and Eric Ulis, instead. Put George Santos in charge of all DB Cooper discussion, under the authority of ... King Charles and Tucker Carlson.

Amen! 

additional reading ps:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonhard_Euler

Leonhard_Euler_-_edit1.jpg

I sometimes opt for humor when things get totally crazy.

No one is going to match Nicholson's credentials or his superiority. That was proven years ago and he still brings it up. Most people dont care and continue to try and post and discuss anyway. But, a few of us actually found R99 impossible to deal with years ago, and the record reflects that. I see nothing in the Cooper case that is a life or death matter! Others see it differently, have different tolerance levels, different expectations, and act accordingly. 

Math seems to be asking for a psychological evaluation of Cooper?  People with credentials to do that? My personal bias is there is so little known about Cooper any guess at his psychological makeup would be just that - a guess. We already saw the FAA Psychiatrist fail badly in his prediction about what Cooper would do. His 'diagnosis' was probably based on some profile at the time. So much for profiles. We also do not have the full testimony Tina provided concerning her whole time with Cooper, every event that occurred during that period, and Cooper's reactions on all of those occasions. I wish I had five hours to spend with Tina, or even better five days - to get more insight into Mr Cooper based on a whole long series of events Tina witnessed Cooper performing through. My bias is 'performance' and how people perform during situations and in problem solving. I just dont think we have enough information to psychologically place or evaluate DB Cooper with any reliability. That is not a hedge on my part. I think we need a lot more information...

just as we need more hard evidence. Prints, dna, voice print, etc. 

Likewise, a very wise man once said to me: credentials are as credentials do. (I think his name was Forest Gump).

Take it or leave it.  

     

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I was able to watch the History's Greatest Mysteries.  I've definitely seen better shows, but then again any publicity for the case is good.  It did drive some page visits to the Wiki page.  I feel I looked old :)  they did not do makeup. Oh well.

Some notes that I am able to comment on now that it has aired.  We were told that it would not be scripted, but we were sent a script and when the time came we were really pushed to stick with the script.  I found it difficult to recite word for word what someone else has written about a topic I'm passionate about.  It was very awkward, and honestly I wish they had just let us read the script instead of trying to say it word for word without any practice.  You can see where the CIA woman and the retired US Marshal had more air time than Darren, Drew, and myself. They must have had more experience or are just better speakers under those circumstances. I think I was interviewed for maybe 2 hours to end up with just a few minutes.  Also, we were all asked to read most or all of the sections for the show, hence seeing some us sound like we were pro certain candidates.  I did not like that.  There were certain parts of the Smith section that I knew were just flat out wrong, so I was able to at least not have to say those.  The show  made it look like Smith and Clair planned the thing together (even building the bomb).  That is not really how I saw it happening.  Of course the Dick Briggs stuff was odd.  

The lesson learned for me is to really ask questions before signing on for an interview, but I was happy to be on TV for a few minutes.  There are definitely better shows and I hope there will be more.  In the end, those companies want viewers and do not cater to the wants of us true aficionados.  The crew was professional and I hope they did get out of it what they hoped.

Ryan you can post this on the FB group  if you want, if you think anyone would be interested, I won't be able to get on there for a bit.

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