DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

Captain Thomas Spangler,,,  later Major.

The Air Force map was furnished to the FBI on Nov 25/71, not months later.. initially calculated by hand it had a 1 mile error. It was later recalculated using a more precise method and had a 0.5 error,, I have never seen an updated map.

The Portland radar operator said the plane was about 1-2 miles East of the center of V-23 not East of the "FBI" path.. the "FBI" map had the plane a few miles East of the center of V-23.

There is no argument for the Western Flight Path.. somebody stick a fork in it.

 

Spangler didn't create the Air Force map, a unit at Sage did. 

 

Interesting, after the sled test Spangler and Soderlind independently came up with nearly identical drop zone maps. Spangler corroborates Soderlind's drop zone.

 

Radar data furnished by Spangler,, (not produced)

[georger 194]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Haven't you been paying attention... that makes no sense and doesn't address the question.

Would Gunther, a well respected and successful author of mostly financial non fiction books take a hoax he created to the FBI, a Federal crime. Would he risk his reputation and career for a mediocre book in the mid 80's... when there was no reason to go to the FBI. The fact that he went to the FBI with his info and even named another person that the "Cooper" contacted gives that part of Gunther's book credibility.

Gunther would have to be dumbest guy in the world to bring his manufactured hoax to the FBI in order to write a mediocre book... a book in which he admits the contact may not be from the real Cooper.

 

The question is,, was he contacted by a hoaxer or the real Cooper..

A third option brought up by "Math of Insects" would be that Gunther was initially contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper then made up the later Clara contact but that has issues.

You cover several options. So ?  There are other options. If the FBI does read this forum Maybe the FBI will release more on this based on . . .  there being more on this ?  For some reason the name Jo Weber comes up ? Are you suggesting you have a litmus test for Gunther.   

There are a couple [of] other things you have to hold back...

"I cannot forecast to you the action of Gunther. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, but perhaps there is a key."

We shall defeat them on the beaches, and in the air, . . ..

Didnt Jo claim to have found and talked to Clara ? Didnt Sluggo go to Jo's home hoping to find the box containing Jo's notes on her conversations with Clara ? Did Sluggo return and report back to Larry and Gray what he had found at Jo's? Were Jo and Clara close ?

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

22 minutes ago, georger said:

You cover several options. So ?  There are other options. If the FBI does read this forum Maybe the FBI will release more on this based on . . .  there being more on this ?  For some reason the name Jo Weber comes up ? Are you suggesting you have a litmus test for Gunther.   

There are a couple [of] other things you have to hold back...

"I cannot forecast to you the action of Gunther. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, but perhaps there is a key."

We shall defeat them on the beaches, and in the air, . . ..

 

I did a FOIA for anything on Gunther, Cooper related or otherwise and the FBI had nothing to add but said anything would be in the released Cooper files. That is their standard answer now.

My only conclusion so far based on the facts is that Gunther did not make up the entire story,, he must have been contacted by a hoaxer or the real Cooper..

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Most of the tie particles are sand/feldspar...

[FLYJACK 654]

Gunther named two other people who had been contacted by the person claiming to be Cooper..

Ed Kuhn an editor for Playboy Press and Mark Penzer editor-in-chief for True Magazine..

So, there is no way that Gunther made up it up and contacted the FBI.

[georger 194]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Gunther named two other people who had been contacted by the person claiming to be Cooper..

Ed Kuhn an editor for Playboy Press and Mark Penzer editor-in-chief for True Magazine..

So, there is no way that Gunther made up it up and contacted the FBI.

Your characterization of Gunther is not accurate. Gunther is classified as a niche writer. Risk vs Reward and Identifying/Leveraging markets. Banking background through his Swiss banker Father.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gunther

Max Gunther (1927–1998) was an Anglo-American journalist and writer. He was the author of 26 books, including his investment best-seller, The Zurich Axioms.

Born in England, Gunther moved to the United States at age of 11 after his father, Franz Heinrich (Frank Henry) became the manager of the New York branch of a leading Swiss bank, Schweizerischer Bankverein (Swiss Bank Corporation or SBC). In 1998, the bank was merged with Union Bank of Switzerland to form UBS, the second largest wealth management organisation in the world and the second largest bank in Europe. Gunther's book, The Zurich Axioms is largely based on his father's trading advice. (taught in business schools). 

Gunther graduated from Princeton University in 1949 and served in the United States Army from 1950 to 1951.

He worked at Business Week magazine from 1951 to 1955 and during the following two years he was the contributing editor for Time Magazine. He also contributed to Playboy, True, Reader's Digest, TV Guide, McCall's, and Saturday Evening Post.

He lived most of his adult life in Ridgefield, Connecticut.

His basis for writing about the Cooper case is 'risk vs reward'. Was Jo Weber flirting with the idea that 'she was Clara' ? Jo spent a great deal of time (and money) trying to find Clara and she freely discussed her searches with others. Jo was interested in 'leveraging the Cooper case' and she traveled all the way from saying 'Duane might have been Cooper' to claiming she had evidence he was DB Cooper. The whole thing is grifting. Gunther died in 1998 and was conveniently no longer alive to thwart Jo's claims ...

Leveraging and risk vs reward is a theme through all of Gunther's writings . . .

Edited March 27, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Your characterization of Gunther is not accurate. Gunther is classified as a niche writer. Risk vs Reward and Identifying/Leveraging markets. Banking background through his Swiss banker Father.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gunther

Max Gunther (1927–1998) was an Anglo-American journalist and writer. He was the author of 26 books, including his investment best-seller, The Zurich Axioms.

Born in England, Gunther moved to the United States at age of 11 after his father, Franz Heinrich (Frank Henry) became the manager of the New York branch of a leading Swiss bank, Schweizerischer Bankverein (Swiss Bank Corporation or SBC). In 1998, the bank was merged with Union Bank of Switzerland to form UBS, the second largest wealth management organisation in the world and the second largest bank in Europe. Gunther's book, The Zurich Axioms is largely based on his father's trading advice. (taught in business schools). 

Gunther graduated from Princeton University in 1949 and served in the United States Army from 1950 to 1951.

He worked at Business Week magazine from 1951 to 1955 and during the following two years he was the contributing editor for Time Magazine. He also contributed to Playboy, True, Reader's Digest, TV Guide, McCall's, and Saturday Evening Post.

He lived most of his adult life in Ridgefield, Connecticut.

His basis for writing about the Cooper case is 'risk vs reward'. Was Jo Weber flirting with the idea that 'she was Clara' ? Jo spent a great deal of time (and money) trying to find Clara and she freely discussed her searches with others. Jo was interested in 'leveraging the Cooper case' and she traveled all the way from saying 'Duane might have been Cooper' to claiming she had evidence he was DB Cooper. The whole thing is grifting.

Leveraging and risk vs reward is a theme through all of Gunther's writings . . .

Your argument is not just irrelevant it is wrong. He wasn't niche, he had a varied career.. that doesn't change anything.

If you think he made up the contact with somebody claiming to be "Cooper", named two others also contacted then went to FBI with the info to fabricate a mediocre book then good luck..

Weber is irrelevant..

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 194]

38 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Your argument is not just irrelevant it is wrong. He wasn't niche, he had a varied career.. that doesn't change anything.

If you think he made up the contact with somebody claiming to be "Cooper", named two others also contacted then went to FBI with the info to fabricate a mediocre book then good luck..

Weber is irrelevent..

 

irrelevent..is spelled irrel-e-VANT.

Look at Gunther's bibliography - leveraging, get rich schemes - 'axioms' (his title). Being contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper, if that actually happened?, is no basis for writing a whole book on the DB Cooper case. Authors pick titles of interest to the public. Authors dont write books in a vacuum. Writers need 'sales;'.

Gunther's whole background was in banking through his father, but Gunther himself wasnt a banker and apparently had no interest in going into banking. Flyjack, I doubt you know anything about Gunther the person but you dont mind playing an expert about him! 

I know people who knew Gunther!

So Flyjack, why dont you tell us about projects Gunther researched or looked into using his banking contacts at the Chase Manhattan etc, but chose not to write books about and why he steered away from those subjects ? \

Stop the preaching, FJ. Did you know Gunther personally? Do you know anyone who did know him personally? The best you have is just an 'opinion' like everyone else. Did you go to school with Gunther or ever sit at his table? Give us a break FJ.    

Edited March 27, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, georger said:

irrelevent..is spelled irrel-e-VANT.

Look at Gunther's bibliography - leveraging, get rich schemes - 'axioms' (his title). Being contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper, if that actually happened?, is no basis for writing a whole book on the DB Cooper case. Authors pick titles of interest to the public. Authors dont write books in a vacuum. Writers need 'sales;'.

Gunther's whole background was in banking through his father, but Gunther himself wasnt a banker and apparently had no interest in going into banking. Flyjack, I doubt you know anything about Gunther the person but you dont mind playing an expert about him! 

I know people who knew Gunther!

So Flyjack, why dont you tell us about projects Gunther researched or looked into using his banking contacts at the Chase Manhattan etc, but chose not to write books about and why he steered away from those subjects ? \

Stop the preaching, FJ. Did you know Gunther personally? Do you know anyone who did know him personally? The best you have is just an 'opinion' like everyone else. Did you go to school with Gunther or ever sit at his table? Give us a break FJ.    

You haven't addressed the facts, you make irrelevant assumptions about Gunther's character..

You haven't even presented an argument.. 

My conclusion is on based on facts.. yours is based on nothing.

You always do this,, you have a strong opinion that you can't defend because it isn't based on facts, just feelings.

So, you try to defend that opinion by pulling in irrelevant tainted elements like Jo Weber or attack the credibility of the messenger but never address the facts..

Opinions are worthless without a good argument that back them up.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 464]

Where do we have evidence that Gunther went to the FBI? Is that in a redacted 302 that I glossed over?

[FLYJACK 654]

35 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Where do we have evidence that Gunther went to the FBI? Is that in a redacted 302 that I glossed over?

Gunther explains it in the book.. contacted the FBI late summer 1972,,  and Himmelsbach acknowledged sharing info with Gunther (interview)..  probably where he got some of the inside stuff...

Plus, Himmelsbach got the Clara letter...

Edited March 28, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 194]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You haven't addressed the facts, you make irrelevant assumptions about Gunther's character..

You haven't even presented an argument.. 

My conclusion is on based on facts.. yours is based on nothing.

You always do this,, you have a strong opinion that you can't defend because it isn't based on facts, just feelings.

So, you try to defend that opinion by pulling in irrelevant tainted elements like Jo Weber or attack the credibility of the messenger but never address the facts..

Opinions are worthless without a good argument that back them up.

 

How do you and your Louiga board know? Did you personally know Louija? 

Jo Weber a 'tainted element' .?  ... whatever that means ?

Can anyone acquire your bullshitting skills  ? 

Did Max and Ralph discuss Project Blue Book?

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by georger

[dudeman17 267]

Was Gunther himself rich?

[georger 194]

9 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Was Gunther himself rich?

Good question.  Writing does not pay like banking and inheritance does.  Max was born privileged.

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by georger

[dudeman17 267]

10 minutes ago, georger said:

Writing does not pay like banking and inheritance does.

My curiosity was more whether he was a successful investor.

[georger 194]

1 minute ago, dudeman17 said:

My curiosity was more whether he was a successful investor.

I have no idea without asking people that knew his family. Sadly some of those people have passed away. 

[dudeman17 267]

My thought process was along the lines of...  He writes books about finance and investment. Was he successful at that? Did he need money from what he might have thought would be a popular book about a (at the time) current interest? Would he be worried about it damaging his credibility? Did he have FU money, where he wouldn't care about any of that, and write the book out of personal interest? Does the answers to all of that inform whether he might make it all up, or support the idea that he was in fact actually contacted by somebody? Questions, questions...

[Coopericane 44]

I threw together a table of information about the various eyewitness descriptions of Cooper. I used the Powerpoint shared by CooperNWO a little while back as my base and organized everything into columns for easy comparison. If anyone has additional information and/or corrections, let me know and I'll edit it accordingly.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PYdSXY1CmFdPobtnO0xQnRyWsIq-CraFQd-3xF5yiiY/edit?usp=sharing

[FLYJACK 654]

10 hours ago, georger said:

How do you and your Louiga board know? Did you personally know Louija? 

Jo Weber a 'tainted element' .?  ... whatever that means ?

Can anyone acquire your bullshitting skills  ? 

Did Max and Ralph discuss Project Blue Book?

 

The only BS'er is you,,,

You established a strong opinion and when challenged to back it up only then do you search out justification for it.. because your opinion was poorly developed. You are trying to backfill your opinion.

Now, backed into a corner you double down on personal attacks..

Repeat, rinse, you follow the same pattern every time..

You still can't admit that the money was in packets... you must have made hundreds of posts attacking me for using the term packets.. because you can't admit you were wrong.

 

 

Himmelsbach thought it was a hoax... not that Gunther was a hoaxer.. he shared info with Gunther and that explains much of the stuff in the book..

 

The evidence supports Gunther being contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper, there is no evidence or argument for Gunther making that up..  the person who contacted Gunther may have been a hoaxer or the real Cooper. Even Gunther admits he may have been hoaxed..

[FLYJACK 654]

7 hours ago, Coopericane said:

I threw together a table of information about the various eyewitness descriptions of Cooper. I used the Powerpoint shared by CooperNWO a little while back as my base and organized everything into columns for easy comparison. If anyone has additional information and/or corrections, let me know and I'll edit it accordingly.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PYdSXY1CmFdPobtnO0xQnRyWsIq-CraFQd-3xF5yiiY/edit?usp=sharing

Link doesn't work,,, no access

[Coopericane 44]

24 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Link doesn't work,,, no access

My bad. Should work now

[georger 194]

A more in-depth look at Max Gunther's claims: https://dbcooperhijack.com/2018/12/23/db-cooper-and-max-gunther/

Were Gunther and Himmelsbach competing to get their books on the Cooper Hijacking out first  ?

Attached: the letter Gunther claims he received from DB Cooper, which Gunther claimed started his involvement in the DB Cooper case.

An interview of Gunther: 

Dave Lipson says:

February 28, 2020 at 5:40 pm

I apologize but this seems like the only method I have of contacting you. I had a very interesting conversation with Max Gunther back in 1989, where he told me some things that we’re not in the book. While this information does not resolved many of the questions still unanswered, there are two anecdotes that I know would be very interesting, especially to “What Really Happened” buffs.

I conducted this interview while working as an executive producer for the Rick Dees morning show on KIIS radio in Los Angeles. Feel free to contact me if you’d like to discuss this information.

[email protected]

Edited March 28, 2023 by georger

[georger 194]

2017:  FBI documents regarding the hijacker’s visit to Elsinore Skydive Center are released.  Somehow Max Gunther wrote about this event 12 years before the FBI files were released.  Either Max had an inside source, or he was in fact talking to the same man who visited Elsinore in 1971.

Thus: DB Cooper should be named in 1971 Elsinore Skydive Center records if Gunther's claims are correct !

Edited March 28, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 464]

1 hour ago, georger said:

2017:  FBI documents regarding the hijacker’s visit to Elsinore Skydive Center are released.  Somehow Max Gunther wrote about this event 12 years before the FBI files were released.  Either Max had an inside source, or he was in fact talking to the same man who visited Elsinore in 1971.

Thus: DB Cooper should be named in 1971 Elsinore Skydive Center records if Gunther's claims are correct !

Gunther says that Cooper went to an air show that had skydivers in it while in LA. One of the skydivers was the brother of his girlfriend. The guy then let Cooper do a free fall skydive. Cooper then eventually asks a pilot friend about jumping from a jet. The pilot says you could drill a hole through the floor of the plane or something like that.
 

I’m not sure how all that was conflated into being the Elsinore Ghost story.  

[FLYJACK 654]

15 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Gunther says that Cooper went to an air show that had skydivers in it while in LA. One of the skydivers was the brother of his girlfriend. The guy then let Cooper do a free fall skydive. Cooper then eventually asks a pilot friend about jumping from a jet. The pilot says you could drill a hole through the floor of the plane or something like that.
 

I’m not sure how all that was conflated into being the Elsinore Ghost story.  

Yes, some have used that to claim Gunther had info from the real Cooper and he was the Elsinore suspect...

I don't agree. Gunther never mentioned Elsinore, he had info from Himmelsbach and most likely some FBI files.. 

IMO, Elsinore was an embellishment by Lyle Cameron who was an FBI informant,,, Lyle later walked back his claims.