DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

Tina used the interphone/intercom while seated..

wanted small bills?

[CooperNWO305 146]

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/23464988-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-the-air-force-map-revisited

[FLYJACK 654]

11 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/23464988-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-the-air-force-map-revisited

Not sure what Edwards means.. the new file confirms the Air Force map was received Nov 25th,,

but we have had the document confirming the Air Force map on Nov 26th for a long time..

It only moves it up one day.. he seems to have questioned that it came from the Air Force, we already had confirmed that.

Edited March 6, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 37]

13 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I did read it, you have zero evidence the Air America or any 727's had cockpit controls for the ventral stairs. 

The FBI comm states CRAFT maps, also the Harrison notes does.. CRAFT is acronym for the IFR procedure. Those maps were requested and delivered, they were CRAFT maps because that is what they called them whatever procedure they actually used.

CRAFT is NOT an acronym for an IFR procedure.  It is apparently something used by NWA to consolidate important information in one place.

NWA pilots in all likelihood used the High and Low Altitude IFR maps and the IFR Approach plates produced by the Jeppesen company.  Since airliners were required to be on IFR flight plans in normal operations in the 1971 time frame, the pilots of NWA 305 probably only had the Jeppesen maps and approach plates for the routes they were scheduled to fly and nearby locations and only for airports that could handle 727 aircraft.

These Jeppesen maps and approach plates were always referred to by their actual names.

[FLYJACK 654]

9 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

CRAFT is NOT an acronym for an IFR procedure.  It is apparently something used by NWA to consolidate important information in one place.

NWA pilots in all likelihood used the High and Low Altitude IFR maps and the IFR Approach plates produced by the Jeppesen company.  Since airliners were required to be on IFR flight plans in normal operations in the 1971 time frame, the pilots of NWA 305 probably only had the Jeppesen maps and approach plates for the routes they were scheduled to fly and nearby locations and only for airports that could handle 727 aircraft.

These Jeppesen maps and approach plates were always referred to by their actual names.

Robert,, read..

[FLYJACK 654]

BOOM.. 

The Raleigh/BelAir coupons were only good in the USA.. 

but available to APO and FPO mailing addresses.

"APO and FPO are abbreviations used by the US Military Postal Service to deliver mail and packages to military personnel overseas." 

So, Cooper could have redeemed coupons from overseas through an APO/FPO.

Written in the lower right text..

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 37]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Robert,, read..

Flyjack, read my previous posts on this.  Just exactly where did you find this acronym?  It looks like it may be something used by controllers rather than pilots.

[FLYJACK 654]

9 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Flyjack, read my previous posts on this.  Just exactly where did you find this acronym?  It looks like it may be something used by controllers rather than pilots.

It says so in the document.. read it.

CRAFT is an acronym..

[FLYJACK 654]

When exactly were the rear cabin lights first out.. The window shades were lowered..

The fuel driver said rear was dark,, Al Lee said lights were out,, Tina said lights were out when Cooper stood up and ordered her to the cockpit.. Tina also said light were out when she went to get the chutes..  

Two things, it makes it hard for Cooper to see with lights out and sunglasses on and harder to determine his height when standing.

 

 

 

727 rear lighting..

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Photochromic Lenses were invented in 1966,,,

Looking for use circa 1971..

[CooperNWO305 146]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

When exactly were the rear cabin lights first go out.. The window shades were lowered..

The fuel driver said rear was dark,, Al Lee said lights were out,, Tina said lights were out when Cooper stood up and ordered her to the cockpit.. Tina also said light were out when she went to get the chutes..  

Two things, it makes it hard for Cooper to see with lights out and sunglasses on and harder to determine his height when standing.

 

 

 

727 rear lighting..

 

It also makes it harder to put on the chute and tie anything. Is there any info that says he delineated between the inside lights and the actual aircraft lights (the blinking ones you see when a plane flies over you at night)? If the outside lights are off, then it makes it considerably harder to visually track the plane. 

[olemisscub 463]

So he's putting on a chute, messing around with the money bag, trying to fit money into the reserve, changing his mind, cutting shroud lines, etc., all while the lights are off in the cabin? My reading of the evidence was always to think that Tina turned them off as part of her "close the curtain" duty as she walked to the cockpit. 

[Robert99 37]

32 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

So he's putting on a chute, messing around with the money bag, trying to fit money into the reserve, changing his mind, cutting shroud lines, etc., all while the lights are off in the cabin? My reading of the evidence was always to think that Tina turned them off as part of her "close the curtain" duty as she walked to the cockpit. 

And Tina didn't go to the cockpit until about 5 or 10 minutes after the takeoff from SEATAC.

[FLYJACK 654]

Lots of MG(35%) Si(30%) Al(20%) and Fe(5%) on the tie..

Anybody identify a corresponding alloy..

[FLYJACK 654]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

When exactly were the rear cabin lights first out.. The window shades were lowered..

The fuel driver said rear was dark,, Al Lee said lights were out,, Tina said lights were out when Cooper stood up and ordered her to the cockpit.. Tina also said light were out when she went to get the chutes..  

Two things, it makes it hard for Cooper to see with lights out and sunglasses on and harder to determine his height when standing.

 

 

 

727 rear lighting..

 

Aft lights remained out entire time...

[FLYJACK 654]

Silver Chloride,, used for electrodes and photochromic lenses, antimicrobial, pigments.. (fingerprint powder)

[olemisscub 463]

From Chris Broer on the FB Group:

When McCrone Labs provided its analysis of roughly 105,000 tie particles, it came in the form of 19 different spreadsheets, with 3 tabs in the 500 Series and 16 tabs in the 600 Series. I previously posted a table that totaled among all the spreadsheets how many of each 1-2 element combo there were. In this table, if there's a number, it means those two elements were a 1-2 combo in at least one tie particle. The number itself shows how many patents were submitted for that combo 1964-1971, with low numbers of patents (under 2,400) shown in red, using patents as a proxy for R&D. The goal is to give group members some research ideas, possibly looking for companies that were involved with several of the unusual (red) combos.

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

From Chris Broer on the FB Group:

When McCrone Labs provided its analysis of roughly 105,000 tie particles, it came in the form of 19 different spreadsheets, with 3 tabs in the 500 Series and 16 tabs in the 600 Series. I previously posted a table that totaled among all the spreadsheets how many of each 1-2 element combo there were. In this table, if there's a number, it means those two elements were a 1-2 combo in at least one tie particle. The number itself shows how many patents were submitted for that combo 1964-1971, with low numbers of patents (under 2,400) shown in red, using patents as a proxy for R&D. The goal is to give group members some research ideas, possibly looking for companies that were involved with several of the unusual (red) combos.

I don't think patents are a comprehensive proxy..

[olemisscub 463]

44 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't think patents are a comprehensive proxy..

I think there are only a tiny handful who would make that claim. Particular patents can be a good lead if there is something really rare, but they obviously aren’t dispositive. Someone else could have been fooling around with that particular mixture and just never patented it. 

[FLYJACK 654]

4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I think there are only a tiny handful who would make that claim. Particular patents can be a good lead if there is something really rare, but they obviously aren’t dispositive. Someone else could have been fooling around with that particular mixture and just never patented it. 

Can you name those that think otherwise..

I agree patents can give you a lead, I check them myself but the universal lack of comprehensiveness and vagueness renders a common sleuth with a falsely heightened illusion of confidence.

An new alloy patent must be very specific, most are the process or too vague.. an alternative is a legal trade secret which many choose.. then there is non Commercial or military stuff.. A patent search just doesn't capture the universe of possibilities for a specific alloy.. they are a poor proxy.

Edited March 8, 2023 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 267]

Another factor in the lighting is that the longer he is in the dark, the better his night vision would be when he exited the airplane. Whether or not he had that in mind is anybody's guess...

[FLYJACK 654]

I was very skeptical about the RemCru patent actually matching the TiSb particles...

After doing some research, it doesn't..

To patent a new alloy it requires very specific elements and percentages,, the RemCru patent uses vague percentages and doesn't actually match all the elements in the particle,, and that is if it is actually an alloy.

Most of these alloy patents are for the process... 

and a patent isn't always used for a new alloy, an inventor can use a trade secret...

The Titanium Antimony (alloy) part of the patent isn't patentable.. 

The patent is for a new process and it is written right there.

The claim that this is the only source for those tie particles is completely false and further the patent does not match those particles and it is not for for a new alloy, it is for a process. It does NOT say anywhere that the patent is for a new alloy.

The TiSb particle/patent is another Cooper Vortex red herring.

Edited March 8, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 463]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I was very skeptical about the RemCru patent actually matching the TiSb particles...

After doing some research, it doesn't..

To patent a new alloy it requires very specific elements and percentages,, the RemCru patent uses vague percentages and doesn't actually match all the elements in the particle,, and that is if it is actually an alloy.

Most of these alloy patents are for the process... 

and a patent isn't always used for a new alloy, an inventor can use a trade secret...

The Titanium Antimony (alloy) part of the patent isn't patentable.. 

The patent is for a new process and it is written right there.

The claim that this is the only source for those tie particles is completely false and further the patent does not match those particles and it is not for for a new alloy, it is for a process. It does NOT say anywhere that the patent is for a new alloy.

The TiSb particle/patent is another Cooper Vortex red herring.

Because it's a process patent it doesn't have to match exactly. I don't recall anyone saying it matched exactly, perhaps Ulis did, but neither I or Nicky or Chris Broer have ever said it matched exactly because, duh, obviously it doesn't. The significance (if there actually is any) in that particular patent is that it's one of only two documented instances where titanium and high percentage antimony were still being mixed together during the tie era. Mixing high percentage antimony and titanium was always an experimental deal because it's a difficult combo to alloy due to some metallurgical issues that are way over my head. It was a couple of guys at Battelle Memorial in the early 50's who first came up with the process for alloying Ti and Sb and Crucible sent Vordahl over there to learn the process from them at some point, maybe 1952. So the knowledge of how to alloy those things properly wasn't easy to come by to begin with. Vordahl seemed to be a specialist because his name appears on more TiSb alloys in the 50's than anyone else. 

I'm kind of exhausted from posting disclaimers on this TiSb stuff, because yes, patents aren't all inclusive. There could have been any number of metallurgists out there just messing around with alloying TiSb for the hell of it. Maybe some metallurgy professor in a metallurgical class somewhere was showing students why it's difficult to mix them together and that's where it came from. Maybe he worked in waste disposal at a railyard and they were unloading waste from a laboratory. There are a million different scenarios one could concoct to explain the existence of a TiSb alloy (if that's what it is). 

However, I think it's a mistake to dismiss the rarity of TiSb alloys. It's rarity is a genuine fact. You talk to metallurgists today and they'll assume you're talking about TiSn, not TiSb. Going by patent research, there was never a single American product commercially produced that had TiSb alloys where the Sb was over 10%. So for a TiSb alloy to have ended up on someone's clothing, then there is likely some proximate connection to a metallurgical lab. Where that connection is, if any, is obviously the question. The tie could have been picked up from a trash bin outside a lab for all we know. Maybe Cooper got his ass kicked for being a nerd and some thugs threw him in a dumpster outside of a laboratory or maybe some hoodlums he owed money to took him out to an industrial landfill and threw him in and that's why his tie looks like it went through a car wash of chemicals.

Because Vordahl was essentially "Mr. TiSb alloy", I think it's possible that Cooper may have been someone who worked around Vordahl, likely during his time at TIMET, not at Crucible. His work with TIMET in Vegas is much closer in time to the hijacking and is also much closer in location. Also, TIMET was legitimately shutdown at the time and Cooper would have been unemployed for the foreseeable future. I've seen quite a bit of time recently trying to find TIMET employees from that era who were Air Corps vets or Paratroopers, etc. I've actually found several, but they don't match Cooper's description. 

The TiSb is as good of a lead as anything else out there, but ultimately it's just a lead to be investigated, same as any other. 

Ultimately, we need Tom's scope to get fixed, which I've heard may be soon. He obviously needs to check and make sure those are indeed alloys. I think he also needs to run more control tests on other items. I know that he tested an engineers tie from way back when and it didn't have hardly anything on it, but that's just one item. We need more control testing. Tom also wants to check out Vordahl's name badges because that could be illustrative of what an actual research metallurgists items look like under a scope. 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Because it's a process patent it doesn't have to match exactly. I don't recall anyone saying it matched exactly, perhaps Ulis did, but neither I or Nicky or Chris Broer have ever said it matched exactly because, duh, obviously it doesn't. The significance (if there actually is any) in that particular patent is that it's one of only two documented instances where titanium and high percentage antimony were still being mixed together during the tie era. Mixing high percentage antimony and titanium was always an experimental deal because it's a difficult combo to alloy due to some metallurgical issues that are way over my head. It was a couple of guys at Battelle Memorial in the early 50's who first came up with the process for alloying Ti and Sb and Crucible sent Vordahl over there to learn the process from them at some point, maybe 1952. So the knowledge of how to alloy those things properly wasn't easy to come by to begin with. Vordahl seemed to be a specialist because his name appears on more TiSb alloys in the 50's than anyone else. 

I'm kind of exhausted from posting disclaimers on this TiSb stuff, because yes, patents aren't all inclusive. There could have been any number of metallurgists out there just messing around with alloying TiSb for the hell of it. Maybe some metallurgy professor in a metallurgical class somewhere was showing students why it's difficult to mix them together and that's where it came from. Maybe he worked in waste disposal at a railyard and they were unloading waste from a laboratory. There are a million different scenarios one could concoct to explain the existence of a TiSb alloy (if that's what it is). 

However, I think it's a mistake to dismiss the rarity of TiSb alloys. It's rarity is a genuine fact. You talk to metallurgists today and they'll assume you're talking about TiSn, not TiSb. Going by patent research, there was never a single American product commercially produced that had TiSb alloys where the Sb was over 10%. So for a TiSb alloy to have ended up on someone's clothing, then there is likely some proximate connection to a metallurgical lab. Where that connection is, if any, is obviously the question. The tie could have been picked up from a trash bin outside a lab for all we know. Maybe Cooper got his ass kicked for being a nerd and some thugs threw him in a dumpster outside of a laboratory or maybe some hoodlums he owed money to took him out to an industrial landfill and threw him in and that's why his tie looks like it went through a car wash of chemicals.

Because Vordahl was essentially "Mr. TiSb alloy", I think it's possible that Cooper may have been someone who worked around Vordahl, likely during his time at TIMET, not at Crucible. His work with TIMET in Vegas is much closer in time to the hijacking and is also much closer in location. Also, TIMET was legitimately shutdown at the time and Cooper would have been unemployed for the foreseeable future. I've seen quite a bit of time recently trying to find TIMET employees from that era who were Air Corps vets or Paratroopers, etc. I've actually found several, but they don't match Cooper's description. 

The TiSb is as good of a lead as anything else out there, but ultimately it's just a lead to be investigated, same as any other. 

Ultimately, we need Tom's scope to get fixed, which I've heard may be soon. He obviously needs to check and make sure those are indeed alloys. I think he also needs to run more control tests on other items. I know that he tested an engineers tie from way back when and it didn't have hardly anything on it, but that's just one item. We need more control testing. Tom also wants to check out Vordahl's name badges because that could be illustrative of what an actual research metallurgists items look like under a scope. 

 

You are correct,, it was Ulis that claimed the only source of those particles was that patent.

But, you guys have also overplayed the patent somewhat.. more-so NickyB,, patents are NOT a comprehensive proxy for the existence of that alloy, (if it is an alloy), they don't actually match the patent, the patent doesn't even claim a new alloy. It is purely a process patent. IMO, those particles can be eliminated from that patent because they do not match and there was so little. Yet, we are told the reverse, mostly by Ulis..

The particles could be from a metallurgy environment but that patent is not evidence of that in any way. They might not be from a metallurgical environment at all. That alloy could be a "Trade Secret" or military...

It could be trace material picked up on the plane or even later..

Whether Cooper was the one wearing the tie during exposure to those particles is a separate issue.

My point is that based on the facts, that patent has been overplayed as evidence.

 

[olemisscub 463]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

they don't actually match the patent, the patent doesn't even claim a new alloy. It is purely a process patent. IMO, those particles can be eliminated from that patent because they do not match and there was so little. Yet, we are told the reverse, mostly by Ulis..

It doesn't HAVE to match to have significance. And again, what would be a match on a process patent? Even if there was an exact measurement that could be matched, there's no indication for when during the process itself the microscopic alloy came from. The alloy could have hypothetically gotten on the tie early in the development or testing phase for the process. If we were claiming that it got on his clothing via a commercial product, then yes, you'd have to match it perfectly. But since this may come from a lab, it can have any number of percentages on it because the particles could have come from any stage during the development i.e. not a completed product.

Again, the significance, if there is any, of the patent is that there is a mixture of Ti and high percentage antimony that is allowable in the process, which means that Ti and high percentage Sb were alloyed at some point during the creation of the process to see if it would work. There is no precise percentage called for in the patent, so saying that you can "eliminate" the particles from the process is just incorrect. 

What matters is that it appears to be a TiSb alloy. We only have evidence of two companies experimenting with TiSb alloys in the tie era. Thus, it's a lead. It's a lead that led us to a person who I think needs to be investigated further. Nothing more. I've never made the claim that Vordahl is Cooper. I think there's a possibility he was. The same as I think it's a possibility that WJS is Cooper or Hahneman or Braden or some of these new Canadians that have popped up recently. 

If you want to attack Ulis for overplaying it's significance (I believe he may have called it a smoking gun), then go ahead. He's wrong for saying that IMO.