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10 hours ago, WalterRaleigh said:

I think the limited hangout (my opinion) raising his his name during E. Howard Hunt's congressional testimony is a good starting point.

Hahneman's first cousin, Robert Ordonez, was the Honduran Ambassador to the United Nations. Hahneman had apparently stayed at Ordonez' home in Honduras while on the run, but Ordonez was in New York at the time. 

My belief is that the Representative who asked Hunt the question about Hahneman was just throwing random things at the wall. For whatever reason he remembered the connection between the Honduran ambassador and his hijacking cousin, so when the topic of Honduras came up he just threw that out there. Just my opinion though. 

Edited by olemisscub

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2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Hahneman's first cousin, Robert Ordonez, was the Honduran Ambassador to the United Nations. Hahneman had apparently stayed at Ordonez' home in Honduras while on the run, but Ordonez was in New York at the time. 

My belief is that the Representative who asked Hunt the question about Hahneman was just throwing random things at the wall. For whatever reason he remembered the connection between the Honduran ambassador and his hijacking cousin, so when the topic of Honduras came up he just threw that out there. Just my opinion though. 

It has nothing to do with his cousin..  I am currently writing up everything into a report/dossier.

and I hate writing,,  the amount of information is overwhelming.

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1 hour ago, Coopericane said:

Hahneman does have that "geeky, older guy" look going on. Surely the stews must have been shown pictures of him at one point? But the results are probably redacted beyond recognition...

So far no 302's have popped up where we are certain they are about Hahneman other than one relating that Hahneman's composite sketch was shown to a Cooper witness. I find it hard to believe they didn't show his photo to the Cooper witnesses. We know they did it immediately after McCoy and there's no reason to think they wouldn't have done the same for Hahneman considering how similar the hijackings were. 

From a looks perspective, my issues with "Bill", as he was known, are with his nose and lip. Cooper's nose appears narrow and comes to a point, whereas Hahneman's nose is round and bulbous. Also, the lips are off by a good bit. Fly and I will disagree on this, no doubt, but I believe it's quite evident. Cooper's lower lip is described in the witness statements and 302's as "thick", "pouty", "protruding", and we have an instance where Flo is looking through photos and points to a person and says that their lower lip is similar to Cooper's (meaning that Cooper's lower lip was somewhat distinctive).Whereas Hahneman is literally called "thin lipped" in multiple news articles I've come across. Maybe he got stung by a bee before NORJAK or something. 

The_Morning_Call_1972_06_03_page_5 (1).jpg

The_Morning_Call_1972_06_03_page_7.jpg

Edited by olemisscub

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3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

So far no 302's have popped up where we are certain they are about Hahneman other than one relating that Hahneman's composite sketch was shown to a Cooper witness. I find it hard to believe they didn't show his photo to the Cooper witnesses. We know they did it immediately after McCoy and there's no reason to think they wouldn't have done the same for Hahneman considering how similar the hijackings were. 

From a looks perspective, my issues with "Bill", as he was known, are with his nose and lip. Cooper's nose appears narrow and comes to a point, whereas Hahneman's nose is round and bulbous. Also, the lips are off by a good bit. Fly and I will disagree on this, no doubt, but I believe it's quite evident. Cooper's lower lip is described in the witness statements and 302's as "thick", "pouty", "protruding", and we have an instance where Flo is looking through photos and points to a person and says that their lower lip is similar to Cooper's (meaning that Cooper's lower lip was somewhat distinctive).Whereas Hahneman is literally called "thin lipped" in multiple news articles I've come across. Maybe he got stung by a bee before NORJAK or something. 

The_Morning_Call_1972_06_03_page_5 (1).jpg

The_Morning_Call_1972_06_03_page_7.jpg

Are pouty and protruding from the Roy Rose interview? Does he say thick too?

There are 302s that discuss a wider or broader nose, a number of them. The Cooper sketches show a handsome man, at least the B one does. That does not align perfectly with the descriptions, but taken together I feel the B sketch is as good as any case could have, much better than the major cases that come to my mind. 

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(edited)
1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Are pouty and protruding from the Roy Rose interview? Does he say thick too?

There are 302s that discuss a wider or broader nose, a number of them. The Cooper sketches show a handsome man, at least the B one does. That does not align perfectly with the descriptions, but taken together I feel the B sketch is as good as any case could have, much better than the major cases that come to my mind. 

Regarding the nose, often the context for their comments are in regard to recommend changes to the sketch. So they’ll say “make the nose wider”, usually in reference to Bing’s Michael Jackson looking nose. I think it’s best just to say that Cooper’s nose, as remembered, is what is reflected in the three Comp B’s because the nose in those sketches are ultimately what they signed off on when they say “very close resemblance” or “he would be easily recognized from this sketch.”

I’ve searched for “protruding” in the 302’s and it’s not there. It comes directly from Rose’s interview with his grandson. Pouty is used independently by Tina and Alice. “Thick” is in the 302’s. Again, I think Cooper’s mouth, as remembered, is ultimately what is reflected in the final sketch. Words can be interpreted many different ways so I feel it’s probably best just to rely on the final sketch for our best idea of what his particular facial features looked like. 

05CDDE81-FE6B-4727-B3BE-34884E012B2F.jpeg

6C129AA4-F3FC-4646-808F-584A913242FE.jpeg

CB6663D8-142D-43ED-858F-CC74CD411103.jpeg

Edited by olemisscub

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14 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Regarding the nose, often the context for their comments are in regard to recommend changes to the sketch. So they’ll say “make the nose wider”, usually in reference to Bing’s Michael Jackson looking nose. I think it’s best just to say that Cooper’s nose, as remembered, is what is reflected in the three Comp B’s because the nose in those sketches are ultimately what they signed off on when they say “very close resemblance” or “he would be easily recognized from this sketch.”

I’ve searched for “protruding” in the 302’s and it’s not there. It comes directly from Rose’s interview with his grandson. Pouty is used independently by Tina and Alice. “Thick” is in the 302’s. Again, I think Cooper’s mouth, as remembered, is ultimately what is reflected in the final sketch. Words can be interpreted many different ways so I feel it’s probably best just to rely on the final sketch for our best idea of what his particular facial features looked like. 

05CDDE81-FE6B-4727-B3BE-34884E012B2F.jpeg

6C129AA4-F3FC-4646-808F-584A913242FE.jpeg

CB6663D8-142D-43ED-858F-CC74CD411103.jpeg

You seem to indicate that the pic is perfect and agreed upon by everyone, which it’s not. But I do agree it’s probably close and the best we have. However, there are 302s that indicate the face was too narrowly or the nose not wide enough. Same logic using Mitchell’s comment about the saggy chin. If we are only using the pic then where are Mitchell’s comments? I can’t find “thick” anywhere without getting to a desktop. 
 

Anyhow, here is Smith as a young man with his right side of his lip casting a shadow. And as an older guy maybe in his 30s with same lip issues and odd skin under his right chin and neck. Pants pulled up, looking kind of geeky unfortunately. He seems like a plain average guy, on the shy side, would not pass for a tough guy. 
 

Some of the minions and naysayers like to discount Smith, but his characteristics do fit quite a bit. I don’t have an issue with disagreement from the experts in that none of us agree on suspects and rarely will you find any of us touting someone else’s suspect. It just does not happen in the case. 

83CA3755-7C71-4C09-B6DB-B58C55D10F8F.png

77BADC70-6A61-458D-8F6D-B8102EA73940.png

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14 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Regarding the nose, often the context for their comments are in regard to recommend changes to the sketch. So they’ll say “make the nose wider”, usually in reference to Bing’s Michael Jackson looking nose. I think it’s best just to say that Cooper’s nose, as remembered, is what is reflected in the three Comp B’s because the nose in those sketches are ultimately what they signed off on when they say “very close resemblance” or “he would be easily recognized from this sketch.”

I’ve searched for “protruding” in the 302’s and it’s not there. It comes directly from Rose’s interview with his grandson. Pouty is used independently by Tina and Alice. “Thick” is in the 302’s. Again, I think Cooper’s mouth, as remembered, is ultimately what is reflected in the final sketch. Words can be interpreted many different ways so I feel it’s probably best just to rely on the final sketch for our best idea of what his particular facial features looked like. 

05CDDE81-FE6B-4727-B3BE-34884E012B2F.jpeg

6C129AA4-F3FC-4646-808F-584A913242FE.jpeg

CB6663D8-142D-43ED-858F-CC74CD411103.jpeg

First the lips, that isn't the Cooper sketch, it is an enhancement which has greatly exaggerated the lower lip..

But, the sketch is also a comprehensive based on the input of all witnesses,, it is not exact but the best representation based on all inputs..

1226492627_ScreenShot2023-03-01at7_39_47AM.png.7b0fed204a872c9648ac1334884bd339.png

The 302 early description states "thin lips" and in Gray's book Flo says "thin lips". One instance says thick lower and thin upper.. what does that mean exactly, thick, fat?. "Pouty" means sullen or protruding lips, not necessarily fat. The sketch artist was trying to portray a protruding lower lip, that is very tough in a front face sketch.

poutyin American English

(ˈpaʊti)
ADJECTIVE
1.  
2.    said of the lips

But, the argument ends when many of the witnesses believed the hoaxer image was a good likeness,, upper and lower lips are thin.

This image was liked by many witnesses,,, there is no way to resolve or rationalize that and claim Cooper's lips were much fatter.

1917086698_ScreenShot2023-03-01at7_51_03AM.png.63bd1b7ebde259ca53925a2cf2ec2c08.png

 

The nose,, there are different descriptions from witnesses,, narrow to wide, mostly "wider". The nose in the sketch is average..

I also have undisclosed evidence that Cooper's nose was slightly wider than the sketch portrays... IMO, Cooper's nose was like the sketch or slightly wider.. not narrower.

Remember, the sketch is a composite of witness's recall, it is not exact, an average, which is why many people are a close match, of course that doesn't make a suspect Cooper... It is only a starting point...

The FBI discussed making a profile sketch and a full body sketch, that would have been very helpful. The front sketch perspective is very limiting...

 

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43 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

First the lips, that isn't the Cooper sketch, it is an enhancement which has greatly exaggerated the lower lip..

But, the sketch is also a comprehensive based on the input of all witnesses,, it is not exact but the best representation based on all inputs..

1226492627_ScreenShot2023-03-01at7_39_47AM.png.7b0fed204a872c9648ac1334884bd339.png

The 302 early description states "thin lips" and in Gray's book Flo says "thin lips". One instance says thick lower and thin upper.. what does that mean exactly, thick, fat?. "Pouty" means sullen or protruding lips, not necessarily fat. The sketch artist was trying to portray a protruding lower lip, that is very tough in a front face sketch.

poutyin American English

(ˈpaʊti)
ADJECTIVE
1.  
2.    said of the lips

But, the argument ends when many of the witnesses believed the hoaxer image was a good likeness,, upper and lower lips are thin.

This image was liked by many witnesses,,, there is no way to resolve or rationalize that and claim Cooper's lips were much fatter.

1917086698_ScreenShot2023-03-01at7_51_03AM.png.63bd1b7ebde259ca53925a2cf2ec2c08.png

 

The nose,, there are different descriptions from witnesses,, narrow to wide, mostly "wider". The nose in the sketch is average..

I also have undisclosed evidence that Cooper's nose was slightly wider than the sketch portrays... IMO, Cooper's nose was like the sketch or slightly wider.. not narrower.

Remember, the sketch is a composite of witness's recall, it is not exact, an average, which is why many people are a close match, of course that doesn't make a suspect Cooper... It is only a starting point...

The FBI discussed making a profile sketch and a full body sketch, that would have been very helpful. The front sketch perspective is very limiting...

 

I concur with Flyjack. Let’s be careful about putting out all these modified sketches. They grow legs and then we have people thinking they are the main ones. Let’s be honest here and acknowledge that the pouty lip pic and push has been because of Vordhal and what looks to be something about his lip. If you’re pushing Vordhal and you’re the one making the sketches, there becomes some bias. 
 

This attached 302 looks to me to be referencing the B sketch and indicates a wider nose. Regardless of who Cooper is, I just don’t know too many people who have such nice features as in the B sketch. 

90526D3E-1D1E-4C96-A373-F7FC8172BDC0.jpeg

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(edited)
2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

First the lips, that isn't the Cooper sketch, it is an enhancement which has greatly exaggerated the lower lip..

But, the sketch is also a comprehensive based on the input of all witnesses,, it is not exact but the best representation based on all inputs..

1226492627_ScreenShot2023-03-01at7_39_47AM.png.7b0fed204a872c9648ac1334884bd339.png

The 302 early description states "thin lips" and in Gray's book Flo says "thin lips". One instance says thick lower and thin upper.. what does that mean exactly, thick, fat?. "Pouty" means sullen or protruding lips, not necessarily fat. The sketch artist was trying to portray a protruding lower lip, that is very tough in a front face sketch.

poutyin American English

(ˈpaʊti)
ADJECTIVE
1.  
2.    said of the lips

But, the argument ends when many of the witnesses believed the hoaxer image was a good likeness,, upper and lower lips are thin.

This image was liked by many witnesses,,, there is no way to resolve or rationalize that and claim Cooper's lips were much fatter.

1917086698_ScreenShot2023-03-01at7_51_03AM.png.63bd1b7ebde259ca53925a2cf2ec2c08.png

 

The nose,, there are different descriptions from witnesses,, narrow to wide, mostly "wider". The nose in the sketch is average..

I also have undisclosed evidence that Cooper's nose was slightly wider than the sketch portrays... IMO, Cooper's nose was like the sketch or slightly wider.. not narrower.

Remember, the sketch is a composite of witness's recall, it is not exact, an average, which is why many people are a close match, of course that doesn't make a suspect Cooper... It is only a starting point...

The FBI discussed making a profile sketch and a full body sketch, that would have been very helpful. The front sketch perspective is very limiting...

 

What is Doubty?

doubty (obsolete) Dubious, doubtful.

What is Pouty.

annoyed or easily becoming annoyed, especially when you show this by pushing your lips forward: Behind the facade of self-confidence, there is a complicated person, all pouty and petulant and racked with doubt and anxiety.

 

Its all subjective, in any event. Especially when some try to use this as a window into Cooper's soul or background. Skilled vs unskilled. Professional vs amateur. (Carr)

By his own words Cooper was dubious and doubtful that there weren't sky marshals on the flight. And he was annoyed by the prospect, unwilling to accept anyone's word.

Is Florence trying to look into Cooper's soul ? Do any of her fine distinctions really matter?  There is no photograph of Cooper to compare with!

Edited by georger
cuz

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5 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I concur with Flyjack. Let’s be careful about putting out all these modified sketches. They grow legs and then we have people thinking they are the main ones. Let’s be honest here and acknowledge that the pouty lip pic and push has been because of Vordhal and what looks to be something about his lip. If you’re pushing Vordhal and you’re the one making the sketches, there becomes some bias. 

 

I'm not doing anything to the sketches except shoving them through an enhancement app. I can't make the lips bigger or smaller on that. I do have enough integrity to not disseminate something to the wider public that I've intentionally manipulated for some dodgy motive. On my website you can click on the enhanced sketch to take you to the original. I've always made it very clear that they are AI enhancements, so there is the possibility for error in that it is distorting the original sketch somewhat. 

norjak.org/sketches

Worst thing I ever did was to get involved with a suspect. As soon as you do everyone assumes that everything you say is a "push". Aside from the recent YouTube video I did with Beeson, which was specifically about Vordahl, I've recorded probably 8 hours of video and audio in the past few months about Cooper without even mentioning Vordahl. I try to avoid it as much as possible because I don't want to be viewed as a suspect pusher. The overall case is way more interesting to me than that crap. I honestly don't even care about him anymore. If you want to throw your hat into the titanium/metallurgy arena, he's the best we have now. He's about a million times better than Vincent Petersen IMO. If you want to follow Gunther, which I do keep an open mind to, I think you've demonstrated that Smith is the best option we have so far on that path. But I have other things going on right now than to be overtly suspect pushing. If you want honestly, I'll tell you that I think Vordahl is as likely to be Cooper as Smith is, which is to say: not much likelihood. They are individuals who I think should be further investigated by us armchair nerds, but that's it. I'm not really sure how realistic any of the named suspects are at this point. 

Bottom line is that Cooper's lip was drawn a certain way for a reason and it remained pretty damn consistent. Then Flo's awful sketch comes along and even that sketch seems to have some oddness with his lower lip. Unfortunately we don't have a great shot of KK5-1's mouth, but on the best copy we have you can tell he doesn't have thin lips either. 

And "thick" comes from Alice fwiw. 

 

thecooperlips.png

alicethick.jpg

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New Vault is out. Each one is more worthless than the previous one. It appears they are solidly into the suspect files now. So just mostly garbage at this point for the foreseeable future. 

https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.-cooper-part-80/view

Unless I've missed this in a previous vault, this guide will be handy. 

guide.png

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Wanted to de-lurk to add that Hahneman stood 5' 9" according to his 1942 draft card. (In 1946 he's down to 5' 8".) That seems to be a little short for Cooper who was reportedly 5' 10" to 6" tall according to the witnesses.

Judging from the composites, the real Cooper seems to have had an underbite perhaps causing his pouty lower lip. The medical term is class 3 malocclusion, which would have required braces or orthodontic surgery to correct.

 

underbite.jpg

before-after-class-3-malocclusion-1_facial_changes.png

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36 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I'm not doing anything to the sketches except shoving them through an enhancement app. I can't make the lips bigger or smaller on that. I do have enough integrity to not disseminate something to the wider public that I've intentionally manipulated for some dodgy motive. On my website you can click on the enhanced sketch to take you to the original. I've always made it very clear that they are AI enhancements, so there is the possibility for error in that it is distorting the original sketch somewhat. 

norjak.org/sketches

Worst thing I ever did was to get involved with a suspect. As soon as you do everyone assumes that everything you say is a "push". Aside from the recent YouTube video I did with Beeson, which was specifically about Vordahl, I've recorded probably 8 hours of video and audio in the past few months about Cooper without even mentioning Vordahl. I try to avoid it as much as possible because I don't want to be viewed as a suspect pusher. The overall case is way more interesting to me than that crap. I honestly don't even care about him anymore. If you want to throw your hat into the titanium/metallurgy arena, he's the best we have now. He's about a million times better than Vincent Petersen IMO. If you want to follow Gunther, which I do keep an open mind to, I think you've demonstrated that Smith is the best option we have so far on that path. But I have other things going on right now than to be overtly suspect pushing. If you want honestly, I'll tell you that I think Vordahl is as likely to be Cooper as Smith is, which is to say: not much likelihood. They are individuals who I think should be further investigated by us armchair nerds, but that's it. I'm not really sure how realistic any of the named suspects are at this point. 

Bottom line is that Cooper's lip was drawn a certain way for a reason and it remained pretty damn consistent. Then Flo's awful sketch comes along and even that sketch seems to have some oddness with his lower lip. Unfortunately we don't have a great shot of KK5-1's mouth, but on the best copy we have you can tell he doesn't have thin lips either. 

And "thick" comes from Alice fwiw. 

 

thecooperlips.png

alicethick.jpg

You still can't rationalize many witnesses liking the hoaxer image, clearly thin upper and lower lips.

1892157210_ScreenShot2023-03-01at7_51_03AM.png.1a0fddbc98ea40ddc9bcfab1af1e0912.png

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(edited)
22 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

You still can't rationalize many witnesses liking the hoaxer image, clearly thin upper and lower lips.

 

I don't think Donald Sylvester Murphy's lower lip was as thin as it may appear in that photo. His yearbook photos show something happening with his lower lip. 

donmurphy.jpg

donmurphy2.jpg

Edited by olemisscub

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1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

Why do I have to rationalize anything? That dude doesn't look Native American or Latino either. Rationalize that. 

Also, I don't think Donald Sylvester Murphy's lower lip was as thin as it may appear in that photo. His yearbook photos show something happening with his lower lip. 

donmurphy.jpg

donmurphy2.jpg

You do have to rationalize it, that is the rule..

You can't tell complexion from a B & W image..

If MANY witnesses liked that image that fact can't be ignored..

Clearly, it tells us that the Sketch B is not as accurate as you seem to claim.

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34 minutes ago, SeventyWonderful said:

Wanted to de-lurk to add that Hahneman stood 5' 9" according to his 1942 draft card. (In 1946 he's down to 5' 8".) That seems to be a little short for Cooper who was reportedly 5' 10" to 6" tall according to the witnesses.

Judging from the composites, the real Cooper seems to have had an underbite perhaps causing his pouty lower lip. The medical term is class 3 malocclusion, which would have required braces or orthodontic surgery to correct.

 

Strong possibility he had an underbite. 

Springsteen has one and his lips look a lot like the sketch lips. 

bruce-spingsten-bn012pcun.jpg

1043000-bruce-springsteen-portrait-session-1984.jpg

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