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DB Cooper

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On 2/12/2023 at 10:30 AM, FLYJACK said:

Which begs the question..

Where did Cooper get that knowledge.. (radio setting off the detonators) and the confidence to make a bomb.

What is LaPoint's background re: explosives (former paratrooper)

You have to have some explosives experience to make a bomb and have the confidence to carry it on a plane even if only using detonators..

Been following this thread (and the earlier one) for a few years and have read both from the beginning.

Figured I would add my meager knowledge here-

When I was growing up in the '70s, my family went on vacations that involved long road trips, and this sort of wording was common enough on signs in construction areas that I remember them to this day.  Similar signs exist today, but now include "cell phones."

So I don't think Cooper would need any more "knowledge" than I had as a 7 year old.








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8 hours ago, ElOel said:

Been following this thread (and the earlier one) for a few years and have read both from the beginning.

Figured I would add my meager knowledge here-

When I was growing up in the '70s, my family went on vacations that involved long road trips, and this sort of wording was common enough on signs in construction areas that I remember them to this day.  Similar signs exist today, but now include "cell phones."

So I don't think Cooper would need any more "knowledge" than I had as a 7 year old.








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Not exactly the same.. you saw a sign but did you know why...

Cooper built a real or fake bomb with electronic detonators, he claimed.. He had to have some "explosives" knowledge. IMO, if the detonators were real the bomb was probably real..

What is interesting is that he said the radio might effect it and to use the radio as little as possible, he didn't say don't use the radio at all.

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57 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Not exactly the same.. you saw a sign but did you know why...

Cooper built a real or fake bomb with electronic detonators, he claimed.. He had to have some "explosives" knowledge. IMO, if the detonators were real the bomb was probably real..

What is interesting is that he said the radio might effect it and to use the radio as little as possible, he didn't say don't use the radio at all.

Not sure what he was saying. He didnt elaborate. Detonators are Emf/static sensitive inside an airplane? ? Like special optical effects inside an airplane (Blevins claim) ?  What did he have in mind?  They were flying through rain .... 

Edited by georger

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8 minutes ago, georger said:

Not sure what he was saying. He didnt elaborate. Detonators are Emf/static sensitive inside an airplane? ? Like special optical effects inside an airplane (Blevins claim) ?  What did he have in mind?  

Witnesses..

"the hijacker had indicated the bomb had an electrical fuse"

"She stated that at one time he commented that "the bomb" he had was electrically fused and he certainly hoped the crew would not generate any electrical currents which would trigger it."

"He told her it was an electronic device and suggested the aircraft radio be used as little as possible. He said he didnt think radio transmissions would bother it, but wanted to let the crew know."

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9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Not exactly the same.. you saw a sign but did you know why...

Cooper built a real or fake bomb with electronic detonators, he claimed.. He had to have some "explosives" knowledge. IMO, if the detonators were real the bomb was probably real..

What is interesting is that he said the radio might effect it and to use the radio as little as possible, he didn't say don't use the radio at all.

Yes, I did know why.  It's pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together when explosives and radios are together like that.  The radio could set off the explosives.  I also asked my 9 year old brother about. (He was building crystal radios at the time)   There was quite the discussion, as we traveled in a pickup truck/camper combo with the kids in the back.     We used an intercom between the camper and the cab of the truck.  It was wired, but my mom was still freaking out.

But really, all that was needed to be known was that a radio could set off the explosives.   Historically, it was known that a two way radio could induce a current in the wire leading to the blasting caps.    Later, when explosive charges were set off with radio signals, there was concern that radios (and cell phones) could trigger them, but this (especially triggering via cell phone use) is not nearly as likely as most think.   

Cooper himself didn't say why his "bomb" would explode, either, aside from "electronic detonators," which really doesn't mean anything.  It certainly doesn't mean he had any explosives knowledge, that he had any of these "electronic detonators," nor why he would need more than one for a bomb that fit inside of an attache case.

Telling the crew to use the radio "as little as possible" is hogwash.   If the radio is likely, or even possibly able to set off the bomb you built, then you tell them not to use the radio at all.   Or build a bomb that isn't likely to be set off by something you know is routinely used by what you are hijacking.    Doing otherwise sounds far from a explosives "expert" to me.   It sounds like someone bluffing while trying to put the crew on edge in order to gain a psychological advantage. 

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Dan Cooper comics are not rare in Canada..

There are currently 10 Dan Cooper comic listings on Kijiji Canada... all in Quebec.

Kijiji is a general online buy and sell classified service in Canada..  sort of like Craigslist.

https://www.kijiji.ca/b-canada/dan-cooper/k0l0?rb=true&dc=true

Facebook has a dozen or so.. Quebec..

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/montreal/search?query="dan cooper"

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4 hours ago, ElOel said:

Yes, I did know why.  It's pretty easy to put 2 and 2 together when explosives and radios are together like that.  The radio could set off the explosives.  I also asked my 9 year old brother about. (He was building crystal radios at the time)   There was quite the discussion, as we traveled in a pickup truck/camper combo with the kids in the back.     We used an intercom between the camper and the cab of the truck.  It was wired, but my mom was still freaking out.

But really, all that was needed to be known was that a radio could set off the explosives.   Historically, it was known that a two way radio could induce a current in the wire leading to the blasting caps.    Later, when explosive charges were set off with radio signals, there was concern that radios (and cell phones) could trigger them, but this (especially triggering via cell phone use) is not nearly as likely as most think.   

Cooper himself didn't say why his "bomb" would explode, either, aside from "electronic detonators," which really doesn't mean anything.  It certainly doesn't mean he had any explosives knowledge, that he had any of these "electronic detonators," nor why he would need more than one for a bomb that fit inside of an attache case.

Telling the crew to use the radio "as little as possible" is hogwash.   If the radio is likely, or even possibly able to set off the bomb you built, then you tell them not to use the radio at all.   Or build a bomb that isn't likely to be set off by something you know is routinely used by what you are hijacking.    Doing otherwise sounds far from a explosives "expert" to me.   It sounds like someone bluffing while trying to put the crew on edge in order to gain a psychological advantage. 

The warning sign was not to use a radio in a blast area, not that it would trigger a wired electronic detonator.

Historically, it was known, where do you get that over generalization from.. maybe in the military but not Joe average.

Of course Cooper was referring to the electronic fuse or detonator,, per witnesses.. 

It doesn't prove he had explosives knowledge but it does suggest he did.

I am not claiming he was an explosives "expert" but had a level of knowledge above average..

Clearly, he did if the bomb was real..  even building a fake bomb requires knowledge.

 

That is the stronger argument based on the evidence. To argue he had none and was bluffing has no merit, a guess.

I hear this often in this case..

Cooper was bluffing about this or that... while anything is possible there is no evidence.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Belair also had Raleigh coupons.. (1966 ads)

1966-raleigh-and-belair-cigarettes-ad-lots-of-people-smoke.jpg.7efe4bea5dd6c08ca99349a1d1409ccd.jpg

1966-raleigh-and-belair-cigarettes-ad-lots-of-people-smoke-1.jpg.0619eb89c76a91559b6af449036344ee.jpg

 

I spent some time a while ago looking at the 1960s era Raleigh/Belair coupon catalogs.  The men in the catalog are from central casting for the Cooper witness descriptions.  I always wondered if maybe the tie clip or his pocket knife came from the catalog, but alas it was pure speculation and there was no way to connect anything.  

In the 40s, there was a show called The Raleigh Cigarette Program.  I believe Red Skelton was the host.  In more fantasy and speculation, I imagined that maybe Cooper watched the program as a young man or boy with his family and that's how he became a Raleigh cigarettes smoker ?   

Anyway....some links below related to the post.

https://creativepro.com/scanning-around-gene-back-when-smoking-was-rewarded/

https://www.grayflannelsuit.net/blog/1968-raleigh-belair-cigarette-coupon-catalog

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raleigh_Cigarette_Program

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1 minute ago, JAGdb said:

I spent some time a while ago looking at the 1960s era Raleigh/Belair coupon catalogs.  The men in the catalog are from central casting for the Cooper witness descriptions.  I always wondered if maybe the tie clip or his pocket knife came from the catalog, but alas it was pure speculation and there was no way to connect anything.  

In the 40s, there was a show called The Raleigh Cigarette Program.  I believe Red Skelton was the host.  In more fantasy and speculation, I imagined that maybe Cooper watched the program as a young man or boy with his family and that's how he became a Raleigh cigarettes smoker ?   

Anyway....some links below related to the post.

https://creativepro.com/scanning-around-gene-back-when-smoking-was-rewarded/

https://www.grayflannelsuit.net/blog/1968-raleigh-belair-cigarette-coupon-catalog

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raleigh_Cigarette_Program

Raleigh's were given out to military in WW2,,,

I have been trying to find out if they were available in the Vietnam war, either through rations or for private purchase..

Would somebody, military or not have access to Raleigh's in Vietnam 1965-1971..

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6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Raleigh's were given out to military in WW2,,,

I have been trying to find out if they were available in the Vietnam war, either through rations or for private purchase..

Would somebody, military or not have access to Raleigh's in Vietnam 1965-1971..

I haven't been able to find any reference to Raleigh's being part of the Vietnam ration packages.  It's possible they were for sale in commissary stores.  Any Vietnam vets on the board ?

I did see that Raleigh's were a lesser used brand in WW2 K rations.

 

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Cigarette brand study... 2006-2011 data

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4743742/

 

Recent studies have suggested that about 1 in 5 smokers report switching brands per year. However, these studies only report switching between brands. The current study estimated the rates of switching both within and between brand families and examining factors associated with brand and brand style switching.

Conclusions

Nearly half of smokers in the US switched their cigarette brand or brand style within a year. Switching between brands may be more price-motivated, while switching within brands may be motivated by price and other brand characteristics such as product length.

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17 hours ago, JAGdb said:

I haven't been able to find any reference to Raleigh's being part of the Vietnam ration packages.  It's possible they were for sale in commissary stores.  Any Vietnam vets on the board ?

I did see that Raleigh's were a lesser used brand in WW2 K rations.

 

Back in the day, cigs were sold at all VA facilities eg VA Hospital commissaries. Raleighs were often featured because of promotions. Sometimes 13 cents a pack or even $1.30 per carton. Other brands .25 per pack. $2.50 per carton. I know because I worked in several research labs housed at VA Hospital Iowa City during that period. Raleighs were heavily promoted vs other brands.  The same at military bases. Almost everybody smoked including doctors ... cigs were sold at commissaries on State and University properties and on military bases. The whole US economy was different back then vs today! People's economic outlook was different back then - that is one reason why Cooper asking 200k stands out vs just a few years later. Cooper was part of the old WWII economy vs just a decade later after the mid 70s Arab Oil Embargo sent the US and world economy into recession. The world economy literally changed just a few years after 1971-72  The middle 70s changed the world economy-politics ushering in Reaganism and we still havent recovered!  Cooper's grudge had to be political. There is no escaping that!  

Edited by georger
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Some wild footage from one of the Cooper Copycat hijackings. If you recall, this is the hijacking I posted about recently where the pilots abandoned ship and left the Stews with the armed hijackers. The plane landed on a small airfield south of Houston and news reporters went to the scene to cover it. They were blocked by local law enforcement and a brawl ensued. Try to imagine a physical encounter with law enforcement like this occurring in today's world!

 

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On 2/16/2023 at 1:48 PM, JAGdb said:

I spent some time a while ago looking at the 1960s era Raleigh/Belair coupon catalogs.  The men in the catalog are from central casting for the Cooper witness descriptions.  I always wondered if maybe the tie clip or his pocket knife came from the catalog, but alas it was pure speculation and there was no way to connect anything.  

In the 40s, there was a show called The Raleigh Cigarette Program.  I believe Red Skelton was the host.  In more fantasy and speculation, I imagined that maybe Cooper watched the program as a young man or boy with his family and that's how he became a Raleigh cigarettes smoker ?   

Anyway....some links below related to the post.

https://creativepro.com/scanning-around-gene-back-when-smoking-was-rewarded/

https://www.grayflannelsuit.net/blog/1968-raleigh-belair-cigarette-coupon-catalog

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raleigh_Cigarette_Program

A lot of smokers have a "go to" brand, and then a backup brand of choice in case a place doesn't carry your "go to".  Raleigh might have been Cooper's primary, or it may have been his backup.

Edited by WalterRaleigh

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There's something I've wondered about in the back of my mind for a while... could Max Gunther's Dan Leclair have been inspired by an infamous book called The Paper Trip? I stumbled upon a digital copy yesterday, and I was surprised at how well some of the instructions line up with what Gunther lays out in his book. It does seem like the sort of book a man like Leclair, someone obsessed with "disappearing" himself, would seek out and read...

https://archive.org/details/the-paper-trip/mode/1up

 

Edited by Coopericane

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1 hour ago, Coopericane said:

There's something I've wondered about in the back of my mind for a while... could Max Gunther's Dan Leclair have been inspired by an infamous book called The Paper Trip? I stumbled upon a digital copy yesterday, and I was surprised at how well some of the instructions line up with what Gunther lays out in his book. It does seem like the sort of book a man like Leclair, someone obsessed with "disappearing" himself, would seek out and read...

https://archive.org/details/the-paper-trip/mode/1up

 

Max wrote an article about "disappearing" in the early 60's..

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30 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Max wrote an article about "disappearing" in the early 60's..

Right... I forgot about that. Nevermind lol. Also the timeline doesn't seem to work considering The Paper Trip was only first published in 1971...
Is there a digital copy of "Do-It-Yourself Divorce" floating around anywhere?

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23 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

Right... I forgot about that. Nevermind lol. Also the timeline doesn't seem to work considering The Paper Trip was only first published in 1971...
Is there a digital copy of "Do-It-Yourself Divorce" floating around anywhere?

I couldn't find one online so I bought the magazine with the article off Ebay..

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On 2/16/2023 at 2:48 PM, JAGdb said:

I spent some time a while ago looking at the 1960s era Raleigh/Belair coupon catalogs.  The men in the catalog are from central casting for the Cooper witness descriptions.  I always wondered if maybe the tie clip or his pocket knife came from the catalog, but alas it was pure speculation and there was no way to connect anything.  

In the 40s, there was a show called The Raleigh Cigarette Program.  I believe Red Skelton was the host.  In more fantasy and speculation, I imagined that maybe Cooper watched the program as a young man or boy with his family and that's how he became a Raleigh cigarettes smoker ?   

Anyway....some links below related to the post.

https://creativepro.com/scanning-around-gene-back-when-smoking-was-rewarded/

https://www.grayflannelsuit.net/blog/1968-raleigh-belair-cigarette-coupon-catalog

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raleigh_Cigarette_Program

I remember the gray flannel suit site and found it a vortex coincidence that Gunther mentions that movie in his book. Decent old time film with paratroopers. 

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The first mass spectrometer - originally called a parabola spectrograph - was constructed in 1912 by J.J. Thomson, best known for his discovery of the electron in 1897. So, between 1971-80 the FBI Lab had some form of mass spectrometry in its repertoire with which to look at DB Cooper case evidence. No Agent or Case Manager however, apparently ever asked for such an analysis - why would they if they didnt even know about such things - so for example tie particles were never envisioned as having any value in the Cooper case nor was any work done to look at the Cooper tie until the 2000s. So far as the case is concerned the tie might as well have not existed!

Today, everyone is aware of forensic evidence in criminal  cases but the majority of people are not experts. The majority of people dont know how to use or interpret forensic evidence because they simply lack the background. That does not stop some people from using or mentioning forensic evidence, as if they were experts! It is an embarrassing situation which inevitably leads to a breakdown in communications.

It usually takes years to resolve such issues. Case evidence fades away into oblivion.  

 

Edited by georger

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