DB Cooper

[Math of Insects 95]

6 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

"wanted me to make as positive an ID as I could with the gentleman I had checked in the previous night"

Certainly seems like this event happened the evening of the 24th. I think Cooper would be a little busy at that time. I guess it's possible since this was written years later the person is confusing some events and their timeline is messed up. 

I suppose it would make sense for the FBI to canvas local hotels. However, they'd presumably be asking about people who checked in on the night of the 23rd. 

Also, the way that letter is written, it sounds like the FBI somehow knew about this guest. That seems very far-fetched. How would she even have known to tell anyone? It wouldn’t have been out of the ordinary until there was a hijacking to reflect on. Given that the letter uses the same name that Jo mentioned, is there some chance she is the source of it? I sort of think there is. 

[olemisscub 461]

12 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Also, the way that letter is written, it sounds like the FBI somehow knew about this guest. That seems very far-fetched. How would she even have known to tell anyone? It wouldn’t have been out of the ordinary until there was a hijacking to reflect on. Given that the letter uses the same name that Jo mentioned, is there some chance she is the source of it? I sort of think there is. 

This is Jo's comment from 2008 about this incident. 

My guess is that Jo had this letter in her possession and gave it to the film crew to use. I'd say the odds are north of 90% that she wrote this letter herself. Although why would she do that? Surely if she submitted this phony letter to the FBI they could just go cross check it with whomever this clerk's name was that is listed on the letter. So maybe it's genuine. 

[Math of Insects 95]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

This is Jo's comment from 2008 about this incident. 

My guess is that Jo had this letter in her possession and gave it to the film crew to use. I'd say the odds are north of 90% that she wrote this letter herself. Although why would she do that? Surely if she submitted this phony letter to the FBI they could just go cross check it with whomever this clerk's name was that is listed on the letter. So maybe it's genuine. 

Pretty amazing that her "memory" of what he told her, turns out to be the exact and only information in that letter that somehow she was the only one in possession of.

I'ma have to call bullshit on this one.

[olemisscub 461]

3 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Pretty amazing that her "memory" of what he told her, turns out to be the exact and only information in that letter that somehow she was the only one in possession of.

I'ma have to call bullshit on this one.

When we were at Himmy's grandson's house we pulled out like a dozen letters that Jo had written to Himmy. Some weren't even opened. Since we knew Jo was full of shit and our time was limited, we just set them aside. I do wish I had glanced through them though. 

[Math of Insects 95]

8 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

When we were at Himmy's grandson's house we pulled out like a dozen letters that Jo had written to Himmy. Some weren't even opened. Since we knew Jo was full of shit and our time was limited, we just set them aside. I do wish I had glanced through them though. 

At least to see if she capitalized and quoted "THANKSGIVING DAY."

Anyway, her memory lines up with the letter--the guest was from the previous night--the night before "THANKSGIVING DAY." That wasn't Cooper, then.

[FLYJACK 654]

47 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

At least to see if she capitalized and quoted "THANKSGIVING DAY."

Anyway, her memory lines up with the letter--the guest was from the previous night--the night before "THANKSGIVING DAY." That wasn't Cooper, then.

I disagree with the context.. it could be referring to the previous night before the hijacking.. 

It doesn't make sense for it to be the 24th,, Cooper was busy in the early evening and would have received the late wake up call the same day as the FBI was there.

The FBI wouldn't have any interest.

The point is that Cooper stayed close to the airport before he hijacked the plane, not that he landed at the motel and decided to stay next to the airport, that is crazy.

 

but if Jo Weber was part of it,, it is probably BS.. I'd still like to confirm the source.

[Andrade1812 51]

42 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I disagree with the context.. it could be referring to the previous night before the hijacking.. 

It doesn't make sense for it to be the 24th,, Cooper was busy in the early evening and would have received the late wake up call the same day as the FBI was there.

The FBI wouldn't have any interest.

The point is that Cooper stayed close to the airport before he hijacked the plane, not that he landed at the motel and decided to stay next to the airport, that is crazy.

 

but if Jo Weber was part of it,, it is probably BS.. I'd still like to confirm the source.

Jo's emails (ca 2017) about this are hard to understand, it appears like she had access to the letter as she reproduces the verbiage perfectly in some areas. However it doesn't appear as she completely understood the letters contents. (eg she talks about needing an ID to check in when the letter explicitly states otherwise).

[Andrade1812 51]

FYI, We're officially calling this person the "Rodeway Inn Road Warrior"

Edited December 12, 2022 by Andrade1812

[olemisscub 461]

11 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

FYI, We're officially calling this person the "Rodeway Inn Road Warrior"

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Since the FBI may read this forum..

Can you put hotel/motel info in the next Cooper vault doc..

and info for the slide with the hair

and any details on the chute packing cards

Thanks

[georger 194]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Since the FBI may read this forum..

Can you put hotel/motel info in the next Cooper vault doc..

and info for the slide with the hair

and any details on the chute packing cards

Thanks

How is the hair mounted?  Is the hair sample permanently mounted on a single slide? Or between two slides? Under a cover glass? Cemented in place re- balsam cement ? Can the hair be removed? Has the hair sample been contaminated? . . . . .  any photos? Where is it located today?  The last date the hair was tested? Does the hair have a root? Beyond hair colour is anything known about this hair?

Edited December 12, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 461]

2 hours ago, georger said:

How is the hair mounted?  Is the hair sample permanently mounted on a single slide? Or between two slides? Under a cover glass? Cemented in place re- balsam cement ? Can the hair be removed? Has the hair sample been contaminated? . . . . .  any photos? Where is it located today?  The last date the hair was tested? Does the hair have a root? Beyond hair colour is anything known about this hair?

 

[Andrade1812 51]

Regarding the Rodeway Inn letter, I can run the letter against Jo's writing through some stylometry software. That will tell us if she wrote it (which I doubt, it doesn't sound like her).

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Andrade1812 said:

Regarding the Rodeway Inn letter, I can run the letter against Jo's writing through some stylometry software. That will tell us if she wrote it (which I doubt, it doesn't sound like her).

I found some info related to that doc..

Apparently, in the late 90's Jo was getting publicity for her Duane narrative and was contacted by somebody claiming to be the clerk who worked at the Rodeway Inn.. The guy even claimed he was shown a pic of Duane and identified him as the guy he saw..

Jo even credited that incident with the FBI DNA testing Duane.

If the doc was produced close to the hijacking that lends some cred but if it was created in the late 90's then is either a hoax or embellished..

but it looks like Jo didn't create it..

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Math of Insects 95]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I found some info related to that doc..

Apparently, in the late 90's Jo was getting publicity for her Duane narrative and was contacted by somebody claiming to be the clerk who worked at the Rodeway Inn.. The guy even claimed he was shown a pic of Duane and identified him as the guy he saw..

Jo even credited that incident with the FBI DNA testing Duane.

If the doc was produced close to the hijacking that lends some cred but if it was created in the late 90's then is either a hoax or embellished..

but it looks like Jo didn't create it..

 

The context of the letter makes pretty clear it was made many years later. Otherwise the writer wouldn't need to say that "check in procedures were much different than they are now."

But the whole thing doesn't make sense. He already confirmed in real time that his guy looked like the "sketches" that the FBI showed him. (Were there multiple sketches by the middle of Thanksgiving Day? I thought it was just Bing Crosby at that point.) If his Rodeway Warrior looked like Bing, he did not look like Duane. Plus by the late 90's he would have had almost 30 years of DB Cooper drawings and suspects to compare his memory to. He wouldn't need to see Duane to go, "AHA! That guy! I remember the whole thing now!" 

Also, come on. As of Thanksgiving, 1971, this guy is 100% convinced he chatted with the guy who went on to be history's most high-profile skyjacker, and he never says anything about it for 30 years? Or ever again after that letter? As far as he knew he would have been central to the story. Yet somehow it took Jo talking about Duane 30 years later to put it all together for him? FBI shows him his guest, he says, "That's the guy!" and never gives any part of it another thought?? He wasn't knocking down the FBI's door for 30 years trying to make sure he was listened to? Meh.

This is obviously one of several kinds of bullshit. If some guy who looked like Bing Crosby spent the night there, he was clearly some guy checking into a hotel and checking out the next day, asking completely normal questions about the place. But because bullshit tends to attract more bullshit, I'm inclined to say that even that part is not real. The guy just heard Jo getting some minor notorieity and wanted to hop on the train for a minute, for any of a few different reasons, "innocent" to not-so-much. She "helped" him remember some of the details, and a letter and fake-lead were born.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Math of Insects

[FLYJACK 654]

22 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

The context of the letter makes pretty clear it was made many years later. Otherwise the writer wouldn't need to say that "check in procedures were much different than they are now."

But the whole thing doesn't make sense. He already confirmed in real time that his guy looked like the "sketches" that the FBI showed him. (Were there multiple sketches by the middle of Thanksgiving Day? I thought it was just Bing Crosby at that point.) If his Rodeway Warrior looked like Bing, he did not look like Duane. Plus by the late 90's he would have had almost 30 years of DB Cooper drawings and suspects to compare his memory to. He wouldn't need to see Duane to go, "AHA! That guy! I remember the whole thing now!" 

Also, come on. As of Thanksgiving, 1971, this guy is 100% convinced he chatted with the guy who went on to be history's most high-profile skyjacker, and he never says anything about it for 30 years? Or ever again after that letter? Somehow Jo talking about Duane is what puts it all together for him? FBI shows him his guest, he says, "That's the guy!" and never gives any part of it another thought?? 

This is obviously one of several kinds of bullshit. If some guy who looked like Bing Crosby spent the night there, he was clearly some guy checking into a hotel and checking out the next day, asking completely normal questions about the place. But because bullshit tends to attract more bullshit, I'm inclined to say that even that part is not real. The guy just heard Jo getting some minor notorieity and wanted to hop on the train for a minute, for any of a few different reasons, "innocent" to not-so-much. She "helped" him remember some of the details, and a letter and fake-lead were born.

 

The Bing sketch hadn't been made yet,,  there was that very first sketch that may have been made by then.

IMO, it is entirely BS or extremely embellished..

The FBI was canvassing hotels.. maybe that part is legit and in the late 90's the clerk saw the Duane narrative contacted Jo and greatly embellished the incident.

This was the first sketch..

Edited December 12, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 37]

20 hours ago, georger said:

Have you made up your mind?  Here are your previous statements on this matter. Keeping track of you is pointless and a full time job!

R99 replied to Quade June 5, 2011:  ..You apparently don't seem to understand that the weather in the Portland area at the time of the jump consisted of several cloud layers plus a complete overcast. Cooper could not see even the lights of Portland when he jumped. Regardless of the parachute's color, it would not be overly visible...

R99 replied to Quade ...The quote in Nuttall's book only addresses the fact that there was a dense cloud cover and overcast that prevented the airliner, flying at about 10,000 feet, from even seeing a "cloud glow" from those two cities. The ground conditions are meaningless in this case. However, the cloud layers , or...July 6, 2011

Robert99 replied...the airliner was above an overcast and several cloud layers when it passed through the Portland area. The people on the airliner could not see the ground. And vice-versa, the people on the ground could not see the airliner. The Janet story, and other such claims, are nonsense.February 6, 2012

Robert99 replied...I have looked down at night time through clouds at quite a few areas of light glow, coming from various cities, over the last 50+ years. Nevertheless, the flight crew of the hijacked airliner said that the overcast and several layers of clouds below them that night were so thick that they could not see the light glow from the Portland and Vancouver areas." I have no idea where Robt99 got this statement on behalf of the whole "f...May 21, 2012

 

. Robert99 replied.: " the flight crew of the hijacked airliner said that the overcast and several layers of clouds below them that night were so thick that they could not see the light glow from the Portland and Vancouver areas." I have no idea where Robt99 got this statement on behalf of the whole "flight crew”. It’s ridiculous or something he made up. ...May 22, 2012

 

 R99 12/9/19:  There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

 

Robert99 replied...there where DEFINITE openings when Cooper could have got a casting of lights below the clouds . Witnesses just East of Heisson and North of Heisson - (four of them) said the PLANE was very low and the man claimed to see a shadow in above the cloud level. I think he could hear and was looking in th... May 15, 2013

 

Robert99 replied...There is mention in the weather hourly sequence reports of about three cloud layers with the top one being an overcast at 5000 feet. Such stable cloud layers support the existence of a stable ..air mass in general, that is, only minimal turbulence. The only other turbulence producing capability i... June 21, 2013

 

Robert99 replied...There were several cloud layers with an overcast reported at 5000 feet. Visibility at Portland was about 10 miles and there were light rain showers in the area. Himmelsbach's book states that the airliner was at 10,000 feet and in heavy rain at the time Cooper jumped. Recently, Rataczak (the c... August 15, 2013

 

Robert99 replied...if you think Cooper is going to locate his position by a glimpse through an overcast and two or three additional cloud layers in the middle of the night and while in the middle of nowhere, then I can only conclude that you do not have a realistic understanding of the situation that Cooper was in at...February 1, 2014

 

Robert99 replied...but the airliner was above several cloud layers and an overcast so that the river could not have been seen visually. In addition, the airliner was only over the river proper for a few miles (at more than three miles per minute groundspeed) so the probability of Cooper landing in water deliberately is zero... September 20, 2014

 

R99:  August 20, 2018, 12:19:47 PM » .....  feet and above an overcast and several additional cloud layers, it is highly unlikely that Rataczak could  ............  lying when they apparently could see through the clouds and see the lights of Portland ? I’m waiting on  ............  answer !

 

R99: 6/17/19 There is no way that Cooper could have known his location, even approximately, after the airliner took off from Seattle and climbed above the clouds into the night sky.  So when Cooper did jump, he had no way of determining what was below him until he was below the lowest cloud level in a pitch black night.

R99 7/11/19  The atmosphere at Portland at the time of Cooper's jump was approximately two percent more dense than the standard atmospheric model.  This is due to above standard sea level pressure and below standard temperature at both sea level and 10,000 feet.

 

$  9/16/19 Georger, You posted several weeks ago that you had "experts" working on the placard problem and that they would expose EU and myself as frauds.  Please hurry up and post their results.  I can't hold my breath much longer waiting for the shoe to drop.

 

12/1/19  Once the airliner climbed out of SEATAC and got above the clouds and overcast, there is absolutely no way that Cooper could have known his geographical location within 20 or 30 miles.  His obvious intent was to jump near Seattle shortly after take off but that didn't work out.  So Cooper was jumping blind and had no idea of the landscape or elevation of the terrain that was under him when he jumped.

 

$ 12/2/19   Hell yes! Do you understand that Cooper blowing up the airliner could result in the deaths of not just the flight crew but a lot of people on the ground from the falling debris?  This is probably the main reason that the flight crew would NEVER fly over the city of Portland when they could easily stay west of Portland and shorten their flight route by a few miles and a minute or two of time. Anyone who suggests that the flight path showing the airliner flying over Portland is correct doesn't understand what was happening!

 

$  12/4/19  Nicky, that simply won't fly.  Cooper couldn't see the ground in the first place, and you can't tell the wind direction by just dropping something out of an airplane.

 

$ 12/5/19   Basically, the problem with the Janet claim of flares is that they would be above an overcast and cloud layers as far as Janet was initially concerned and Cooper would not be able to see them when they went below the overcast

$ 12/7/19 This is just more silly nonsense from Georger.  Anyone interested in knowing what the flight crew could see or not see from 10,000 feet should take a look at the 8:00 PM weather sequence report for Portland International Airport.  Shutter has this report on this site.
Georger, here is some basic information for you.  Water runs downhill.  If Albert Einstein didn't say that then I did. 

12/9/19  overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that. It is highly unlikely that  ............  for any witness on the ground due to the multi layers of clouds in your model.  You, have virtually  ............  were factually expressing what they experienced, clouds and your layers-of-clouds notwithstanding ?    ............ !  The "glow" is not on the ground! It is in the clouds!  And water still runs downhill! For Georger's  ............ " is a single word.     reply>  

R99: 12/9/19 …THE GLOW IN THE CLOUDS IS ATTACHED TO CITIES ON THE GROIUND 0  ............  crew couldn't see the ground. And except for the clouds, they couldn't see the atmosphere either. This  ......

 

Georger, excellent, excellent!  But do you really understand what the above means?

Within the past couple of weeks or so someone (probably FlyJack) posted an FBI document that quoted the flight crew as saying that they were "in the soup" when they thought Cooper jumped and couldn't see anything outside the aircraft.

Did you see that post?

I have a life outside of Cooper World and it is quite busy at this time and has been for the past several years (or maybe decades would be more accurate).  But I will try to amplify on some Cooper related matters shortly since some new information has become available (which you probably missed or didn't understand) recently. 

[Math of Insects 95]

17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The Bing sketch hadn't been made yet,,  there was that very first sketch that may have been made by then.

IMO, it is entirely BS or extremely embellished..

The FBI was canvassing hotels.. maybe that part is legit and in the late 90's the clerk saw the Duane narrative contacted Jo and greatly embellished the incident.

This was the first sketch..

Right, right, the default from the book. Guess what? Not Duane. Random business guy checking in and checking out of a hotel, if anyone at all.

This letter can be safely disregarded IMO.


 

[Math of Insects 95]

Also…the guy’s name is John Collins, and the clerk strikes up a conversation because a drink exists named the “Tom Collins”? And they talked about this for a bit—about how the guy’s name is different from another thing that exists in the world? Did they also talk about Judy Collins and Bud Collins and Fort Collins Colorado?

 

Yeah, nah.

[FLYJACK 654]

"canvassing hotel-motels, vicinity of airport"

Investigation in Portland territory negative.

[The Cooper Vortex 73]

22 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Reynolds was in Troutdale Or,, The Alcoa plant was near Lake Vancouver on the Washington side of the Columbia.. maybe 16 miles apart..

Reynolds also operated an aluminum smelting facility on the Columbia in Longview from the 1940's until the late 90s. About 25 miles north/downstream from Tena Bar. I remember it closing and moving to South America(?) somewhere.

[The Cooper Vortex 73]

47 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Also…the guy’s name is John Collins, and the clerk strikes up a conversation because a drink exists named the “Tom Collins”? And they talked about this for a bit—about how the guy’s name is different from another thing that exists in the world? Did they also talk about Judy Collins and Bud Collins and Fort Collins Colorado?

Duane and Jo lived in Fort Collins for a while.

[FLYJACK 654]

In 1997, Jo told the the FBI that Duane used the alias "John Collins".. don't know if that was ever confirmed by the FBI. Which came first, the clerks claim or Jo's claim..

[Math of Insects 95]

For what it's worth, here's Jo talking about this in 2008, and hard-confirming that the entire event happened on the night before Thanksgiving. In other words, during the time that the hijacker would have been in the plane. I bolded and asterisked below.

It's a non-starter.

  

On 4/2/2008 at 11:14 PM, skyjack71 said:

I hope you guys will find this interesting as I am tired of trying to tell the FBI anything: If you do then I have other information from 3rd parties that I can post.

Excerpt of Email from Night Clerk

Subj: Re: (no subject)
Date: 1/17/2008

Dear Jo, I enjoy reading the excerpts from skeptics who were not there to give 'credence' to matters they have no first hand knowledge of. There was a registration card signed by " D B Cooper ". The name on that card was "------------" . I may have been only a 27 year old at that time but I still have a very good memory of that incident because of the 'questioning' that I received by the investigators involved that following evening when I came to work. My mind is as good now as it was then because I have kept it that way. I support you in your quest and have seen nothing as yet to doubt or question your evidence or my belief in that evidence as related to the facts as I know them to be true!



**************
Excerpt from email from Ckret;

Jan 2008 3:18:08 PM Eastern Standard Time

Ckrets - Reply
In Reply To
3) I am not aware of a hotel registration, agents went to all of the hotels around the Portland airport in the following days, I am not aware that the effort produced any notable leads.

My replay back to Ckret:

Did you not get the email I sent to you with the message from the witness in China? I did not give the phone number to you, but in that email he said that you could contact him.

The FBI did not seek him out in 1971 - he called the next day to report that a man had spent the night there who matched that description...and he told me what transpired when the agent came to the hotel.

The agent watch as he pulled the card and told him not to touch it and placed in plastic for finger prints. He does not know what happened after that . The hotel I understand is not there anymore and it had maybe 3 new owners after the skyjack.

When I asked for details on the hotel - like what was near it... I inquired about a piano bar and was told that one was next door - I assume in the hotel.. Duane always sought out the nearest piano bar. ******There was not a player for Thanksgiving eve, but one of the residents was picking out a tune on the piano and trying to get everyone to sing. (Obvious it was very near if he could hear).******

The night clerk told me a couple of other things Note: XXXXXXX deleted to make this post.

The man signed the registration and provided the required information. Duane's handwriting I have samples of over the yrs for comparisons - an individuals handwriting does change. Duane was left handed.

This is another question I have ASKED and ASKED over the yrs. Surely the stewardess noted which hand Cooper held his cigarette in---. Duane was able to use both hands for most task, but I doubt he would have held up under stress. Did he sit on the right or left of the plane? Which hand did he keep on the briefcase of "flares"? I would keep the opposite hand on it to be able to use my good hand for protection and or to eat and smoke with, but that is me.

April 2, 2008
PS: I will duely note that the registration card was signed John Collins because a conversation ensued about the drink Tom Collins. Cooper also asked that he not be woken by the maids and a late check-out was arranged. In so far as I know the FBI did not talk to him when he came back to the states a couple of months ago for health reasons. He is now a teacher in China.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

 

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

For what it's worth, here's Jo talking about this in 2008, and hard-confirming that the entire event happened on the night before Thanksgiving. In other words, during the time that the hijacker would have been in the plane. I bolded and asterisked below.

It's a non-starter.

  

 

The problem with that is you are using Jo Weber's interpretation of that doc as fact. Her claims are entirely unreliable.