DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

The parachute scene was staged, he looks through stuff finds a chute and immediately claims it is Cooper's.. he wanted drama.

He is committing a hoax,, IMO..

Larry Carr interviewed Cossey and misunderstood the handle mod suggesting it was maybe moved left to right,, Cossey never claimed that was his mod.. out and up was the mod... then there is the harness and D rings.. anybody can tell it doesn't match Cossey's description.

Beyond that.. Cossey, a serial liar was wrong and was describing his personal chute not Hayden's.. not Cooper's. Cossey wasn't even describing Cooper's chute.. A rigger doesn't pack 2 identical emergency bailout rigs and makes one handle hard to find or pull..

The packing card for the back chute Cooper used was found on the plane,, it does not match Cossey's description.

Gryder's chute claim was a mess..  and a hoax.. Gryder needed something big.

Uninformed people are falling for it.

[FLYJACK 654]

I have been saying this for a while but some people don't seem to get it..

Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered in flight.. not before take-off.

It is clear in the crew transcripts and confirmed here..

Cooper changed his demand when they negotiated for Reno.. this indicates that he didn't want to jump ASAP initially, but he did after the Reno landing was agreed... and that suggests he did not jump where he had initially intended. His plan changed. His initial plan was to jump further South..

[olemisscub 461]

How do you square that with both of Tina’s 302’s and Rat’s 302 which makes that whole scene appear to be them telling Cooper that takeoff couldn’t be done safely with door down and that this is what made him change his mind, ultimately resulting in him demanding that Tina stay behind.  
 

In your scenario he has an epiphany once they decide on Reno, making it wholly his idea to change his mind about the stairs. The way they tell it they are basically having to twist his arm about it and he only begrudgingly accepts it and isn’t too happy about it. 
 

Just curious how you square that since they seem to be disparate scenarios.

Edited December 4, 2022 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

37 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

How do you square that with both of Tina’s 302’s and Rat’s 302 which makes that whole scene appear to be them telling Cooper that takeoff couldn’t be done safely with door down and that this is what made him change his mind, ultimately resulting in him demanding that Tina stay behind.  

If you carefully put together the sequence that came later..

His initial demand was lowered in flight,, due to fuel limitations they negotiated Reno. 

The crew suggested larger airports and Cooper refused demanding a smaller airport.. they agreed on Reno. The crew wanted to get Tina off the plane and they discussed stairs down on take-off,, it isn't clear if Cooper came up with it or it was suggested by the crew.. but Cooper accepted, when the crew was told they can't take-off with the rear stair down Cooper had to be talked out of it. He changed to airstairs up on take-off and Tina would lower them..

Everything fits when put in context and timeline. the only thing unclear it whether it was the crew or Cooper that first suggested rear stairs down on take-off..

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 461]

42 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Everything fits when put in context and timeline. the only thing unclear it whether it was the crew or Cooper that first suggested rear stairs down on take-off..

 

I do agree with you on the timeline now that I've really taken the time to look at it. Interesting. I've never really dived into the ARINC much, but it does seem like he initially wanted stairs lowered AFTER takeoff in his initial demand. That's not indicated by anyone's testimony, but the ARINC seems pretty clear. 

And to your point that I quoted, I can't find anything that indicates who suggested door down either, it's like all the sudden they are discussing the door being down. I assume it was Cooper's idea since he appears to be the one bitching about it when informed that it wasn't practical. I'm unclear about what this "insistent with stairs in 1 deg" means. 

[FLYJACK 654]

3 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I do agree with you on the timeline now that I've really taken the time to look at it. Interesting. I've never really dived into the ARINC much, but it does seem like he initially wanted stairs lowered AFTER takeoff in his initial demand. That's not indicated by anyone's testimony, but the ARINC seems pretty clear. 

And to your point that I quoted, I can't find anything that indicates who suggested door down either, it's like all the sudden they are discussing the door being down. I assume it was Cooper's idea since he appears to be the one bitching about it when informed that it wasn't practical. I'm unclear about what this "insistent with stairs in 1 deg" means. 

Yes, it is all clear when you put the timeline together,, everybody repeats the dominant narrative that Cooper's demand was airstairs down on take-off.. inferring he had special knowledge and wanted to jump ASAP. It is only partially true.

But, his initial demand was airstairs lowered after take-off.. it changed to down on take-off then the crew had to talk him out of it.

My hypothesis is that Cooper wanted to jump further south for several reasons..  but when Reno was in play he didn't want to be on the plane when it landed.. So, he jumped as soon as he was able to.. that means his LZ was not his original plan.. and that may play a role in making this case more difficult. 

 

 

[olemisscub 461]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, it is all clear when you put the timeline together,, everybody repeats the dominant narrative that Cooper's demand was airstairs down on take-off.. inferring he had special knowledge and wanted to jump ASAP. It is only partially true.

But, his initial demand was airstairs lowered after take-off.. it changed to down on take-off then the crew had to talk him out of it.

My hypothesis is that Cooper wanted to jump further south for several reasons..  but when Reno was in play he didn't want to be on the plane when it landed.. So, he jumped as soon as he was able to.. that means his LZ was not his original plan.. and that may play a role in making this case more difficult. 

 

 

I assume that your theory would require that he arrived at PDX via an inbound flight, perhaps the same day or the day before? One would traditionally assume that he jumped where he did to be near where his original transportation was, but if your theory is that he intended to jump far away from Portland then that presumes that he didn't have any ground transportation waiting for him at Portland. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

Just now, olemisscub said:

I assume that your theory would require that he arrived at PDX via an inbound flight, perhaps the same day or the day before? One would traditionally assume that he jumped where he did to be near where his original transportation, but if your theory is that he intended to jump far away from Portland then that presumes that he didn't have any ground transportation waiting for him at Portland. 

I don't really have a theory on his arrival/stay in Portland. Lots of possibilities. He could have arrived by any means and stayed for days prior.. We have nothing on that..

but the Harrison notes confirm the initial airstairs lowered in flight demand and have better timestamps.

Initial demand aft stair lowered in flight

 

wants one girl to lower stairs..

agreed to take-off stairs up

[olemisscub 461]

So Harrison writes "lowered in flight" as opposed to "lowered after takeoff". Is it possible that this is a misinterpretation and what 305 was actually saying was "hey this guy wants us to be flying with the stairs lowered while we are airborne (after takeoff)". The next communication about the stairs comes from flight ops saying "don't worry about it, you can fly with the stairs down".

I agree with your timeline if you read it literally, but the fact that we are missing the part of who chose to put the door down, coupled with Rat and Tina saying he wanted door down from the get-go, makes me think there might be a miscommunication or misinterpretation happening. 

Is there anything else that would indicate that he originally wanted stairs lowered in flight other than that one sentence?

[FLYJACK 654]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

So Harrison writes "lowered in flight" as opposed to "lowered after takeoff". Is it possible that this is a misinterpretation and what 305 was actually saying was "hey this guy wants us to be flying with the stairs lowered while we are airborne (after takeoff)". The next communication about the stairs comes from flight ops saying "don't worry about it, you can fly with the stairs down".

I agree with your timeline if you read it literally, but the fact that we are missing the part of who chose to put the door down, coupled with Rat and Tina saying he wanted door down from the get-go, makes me think there might be a miscommunication or misinterpretation happening. 

Is there anything else that would indicate that he originally wanted stairs lowered in flight other than that one sentence?

The initial demand transmitted by the crew..

to be lowered after take off

 

[georger 194]

6 hours ago, olemisscub said:

We don’t even know if any of these statements are his words verbatim, so what a fruitless exercise this is. Even if we were certain that they were verbatim it would still be fruitless.

If by fruitless you mean it wont go back to Cooper and who he was - where he came from .... I agree. Cooper gave no manifesto to be traced. No letters to the editor... no personal letters, no research or school papers, no love letters, no letters home if in service, no birthday cards, and perhaps he never used a telephone .................   that we know of.      

Edited December 5, 2022 by georger

[Robert99 37]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

So Harrison writes "lowered in flight" as opposed to "lowered after takeoff". Is it possible that this is a misinterpretation and what 305 was actually saying was "hey this guy wants us to be flying with the stairs lowered while we are airborne (after takeoff)". The next communication about the stairs comes from flight ops saying "don't worry about it, you can fly with the stairs down".

I agree with your timeline if you read it literally, but the fact that we are missing the part of who chose to put the door down, coupled with Rat and Tina saying he wanted door down from the get-go, makes me think there might be a miscommunication or misinterpretation happening. 

Is there anything else that would indicate that he originally wanted stairs lowered in flight other than that one sentence?

Yes.  After finally agreeing to takeoff with the stairs up, Cooper reportedly told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take off with the stairs down (but presumably unlocked).  This statement presumably originated with Tina.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Robert99

[olemisscub 461]

11 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Yes.  After finally agreeing to takeoff with the stairs up, Cooper reportedly told Tina that he knew the aircraft could take off with the stairs down (but presumably unlocked).  This statement presumably originated with Tina.

I’m aware of what you’re saying. He even says “they can lower it from the cockpit” (obviously incorrect and maybe a brain fart thinking it was like a C-130)

However, what Fly is saying is that Cooper

First wanted stairs lowered AFTER takeoff

Then wanted stairs lowered BEFORE takeoff 

Then wanted stairs lowered AFTER takeoff.

If you read it verbatim that is the correct sequence of events. So I was asking him if there was anything else other than the one communication I highlighted to indicate he ORIGINALLY wanted stairs lowered after takeoff (because neither the witness statements nor anything in the ATC logs indicate this initial desire for stairs to be lowered after takeoff) 

[CooperNWO305 146]

7 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I’m aware of what you’re saying. He even says “they can lower it from the cockpit” (obviously incorrect and maybe a brain fart thinking it was like a C-130)

However, what Fly is saying is that Cooper

First wanted stairs lowered AFTER takeoff

Then wanted stairs lowered BEFORE takeoff 

Then wanted stairs lowered AFTER takeoff.

If you read it verbatim that is the correct sequence of events. So I was asking him if there was anything else other than the one communication I highlighted to indicate he ORIGINALLY wanted stairs lowered after takeoff (because neither the witness statements nor anything in the ATC logs indicate this initial desire for stairs to be lowered after takeoff) 

I argued this one with Eric back in June. 3 times in that communication they mention stairs lowered in flight.  It is also in a 302 from Tina (it is in Martin's book), I don't have it handy, that says lowered in flight, but then a few lines down she contradicts that.

My argument to Eric was not necessarily that one was right or wrong, but that there is ambiguity, and therefore I can't buy into this absolute statement that he wanted to jump near Seattle.  My issue with Seattle is that it is urban, and there is a lot of water there. Cooper is taking a huge risk jumping near there versus something more suburban like outside of Portland.  He also does not know when that plane will hit 10,000 feet, so if he planned to have some time to freefall or to get that chute open.  He did jump near Portland, so I give that some weight.

[olemisscub 461]

39 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I argued this one with Eric back in June. 3 times in that communication they mention stairs lowered in flight.  It is also in a 302 from Tina (it is in Martin's book), I don't have it handy, that says lowered in flight, but then a few lines down she contradicts that.

I’d be interested in seeing that. Perhaps FlyJack could find that as well. I just looked through her 302’s and couldn’t find it. In both of her 302’s this is the initial demand from Cooper.

[olemisscub 461]

44 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

 

My argument to Eric was not necessarily that one was right or wrong, but that there is ambiguity, and therefore I can't buy into this absolute statement that he wanted to jump near Seattle.  

I'd argue that he wanted stairs down upon take off for two reasons:

1) It would ensure that he wasn't trapped

2) It increases the distance that the authorities would have to search for you because they'd have to assume he jumped anywhere between takeoff in Seattle and landing in Reno; he wasn't aware the pressure bump was going to give him away, obviously.

[CooperNWO305 146]

37 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I’d be interested in seeing that. Perhaps FlyJack could find that as well. I just looked through her 302’s and couldn’t find it. In both of her 302’s this is the initial demand from Cooper.

What's interesting is in the pic I have from the book, this middle paragraph is removed, so it reads as "as soon as this lowering of the door and stairs were accomplished in flight.."  So from the book, it seems contradictory, but from the actual 302 it is not.

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by CooperNWO305

[FLYJACK 654]

13 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The initial demand transmitted by the crew..

to be lowered after take off

 

I already posted it,,

This is the first comm's from the crew giving Cooper's demands.. NOT the last..

"AFT STAIRS TO BE LWRD AFTR TKOFF"  this is the smoking gun..

This is corroberated by the Harrison notes and the FBI doc I posted here..

These are far more reliable than witness statements.. Tina probably conflated Cooper's changing demands..

[FLYJACK 654]

There is no question that his initial demand was lowered after take off.. (crew transcript confirms it)

What is in dispute is how down on take-off came about, from Cooper or the crew.

There are three options..

1 The crew first suggested it and Cooper accepted.. the crew wanted to get Tina off the plane.

2 Cooper suggested it. He wanted off ASAP now that Reno was in play.

3 Cooper wanted the stairs unlocked and used the term "open" and the crew misunderstood that to mean fully down. 

Was this negotiation going through Tina? It may have been a who's on first situation..

 

Here, Cooper wanted Tina to manipulate stairs after airborne (indicates lowered in flight) but crew was suggesting locking stairs half way.. IMO, to get Tina off the plane.

Edited December 5, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 461]

8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

What is in dispute is how down on take-off came about, from Cooper or the crew.

 

The ATC transcripts would seem to indicate it was Cooper's idea.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

28 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

The ATC transcripts would seem to indicate it was Cooper's idea.

 

Maybe, still ambiguous.. Cooper may have meant unlocked,,

You need to put all the comm's and pieces together in a timeline to make sense of it..

It is hard to take one snippet without the full context and sequence.. this passage can be read different ways depending on where it fits in.. for example,, was this after the crew suggested locking the stairs half way? It sounds like it was,,

 

Remember, the crew was negotiating with Cooper and being instructed by ground/NWA..

Edited December 5, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Math of Insects 95]

10 hours ago, olemisscub said:

He even says “they can lower it from the cockpit” (obviously incorrect and maybe a brain fart thinking it was like a C-130)

Some of this could also have been bluster. It might have been him being tough about “no funny stuff,” and also just being wrong in this case.

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

The ATC transcripts would seem to indicate it was Cooper's idea.

 

Just like most things in the Cooper world, there are multiple versions of ever event.

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

The ATC transcripts would seem to indicate it was Cooper's idea.

 

I checked the crew comm's and this occurred well after the crew had suggested locking stairs half way..

So, it doesn't indicate it was Cooper's idea initially..

and it doesn't contradict anything when placed in context and timeline.

Edited December 5, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 461]

Gregory claiming he saw Cooper's eyes despite saying in his initial interview that he didn't see Cooper's eyes.