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DB Cooper

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1 hour ago, Math of Insects said:

It's true, although it's not really a control, it's checking out a guess. Fly's will be closer. I wish we could swab the seat Cooper was in…

I recall someone knowledgable saying the profile basically revealed every substance on earth and that even the outliers could be explained as aspects of other things there, so it wasn't meaningful investigatorily. I don't remember who that was, though.

Is this in your realm?

I recall the same statement but it wasnt mine as far as I recall - maybe it was Kaye?  I was surprised that McCrone was not more helpful. They dumped a boatload on Tom.

I actually showed the McCrone list/wheel to several chemists - one at Integ DNA Tech, and they were shocked. One commented "I see no pattern!". "A bit of everything". I replied to one, "Maybe thats what you get from an intentional plant" and he laughed and said, "that could be". So the plant idea has been in my mind since this surfaced. I know in advance some people will react very negatively to that - maybe even Tom.  Where does this tie fit on the bell curve, of what? !  Occupational ties?

Edited by georger
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Georger..NO.The rig that Dan Gryder showed is jumpable.you Mus understood what I said.To clarify...that rig can  not be described as "an NB8" simply because it is part NB8( the container)and part B 12(the harness).It does have the correct Ripcord for that container ( NB8).

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2 minutes ago, kcaero said:

Georger..NO.The rig that Dan Gryder showed is jumpable.you Mus understood what I said.To clarify...that rig can  not be described as "an NB8" simply because it is part NB8( the container)and part B 12(the harness).It does have the correct Ripcord for that container ( NB8).

OK thanks for the clarification! 

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33 minutes ago, georger said:

I recall the same statement but it wasnt mine as far as I recall - maybe it was Kaye?  I was surprised that McCrone was not more helpful. They dumped a boatload on Tom.

I actually showed the McCrone list/wheel to several chemists - one at Integ DNA Tech, and they were shocked. One commented "I see no pattern!". "A bit of everything". I replied to one, "Maybe thats what you get from an intentional plant" and he laughed and said, "that could be". So the plant idea has been in my mind since this surfaced. I know in advance some people will react very negatively to that - maybe even Tom.  Where does this tie fit on the bell curve, of what? !  Occupational ties?

I have to be honest: I think the plant idea is largely because we live in the future and someone electron-microscoped it and now we're confused. In real time, I would not imagine someone having the foresight to know this day would come, or to guess how to get the right substances to confuse us with. I am of the belief the particles will prove to be more mundane than we give them credit for. Not that belief matters, of course. It's all guesses.

Fly's theory that he may have used the tie to wipe off fingerprints is a good one. It would certainly explain particles from many different types of surfaces. 

The dumpster idea is also good.

I've never understood why people seem so opposed to the thrift store idea, either. I've bought 98% of all the ties I've ever owned at one. In fact I've never been to a thrift store that didn't have maybe 100 ties at the end of the suit rack. Old people die and their children pass on their clothes to the thrift store. Old men have lots of ties. I'm not sure how that's even a question for some. 

I'd still be curious to know what would come of someone swabbing that parachute pack. That's something that would reliably be in contact with lots of airplane-related surfaces of all kinds. It might even have had flares in the mix. It's something we know Cooper was in contact with. If it were me that might even be the first place I'd check, if I had to choose one.

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The sheer amount of Ti metal found on the stubs combined with all those particles of Ti-Pd and the TiSb are all very strong indicators of specialty metals R&D work. Tom agrees this is the kitty pool cooper was swimming in. I’ve looked at individuals who would be wearing ties from all the players involved in this industry: RMI, Batelle Memorial Institute, TIMET, Dupont, Crucible, Wa Chang, Bureau of Mines, ect.  and there is only one individual that I’ve come across that sticks out as fitting the cooper physical profile the personality profile and the tie profile. This person who I refer to as the unicorn is Milton Bernard Vordahl.  

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6 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

I have to be honest: I think the plant idea is largely because we live in the future and someone electron-microscoped it and now we're confused. In real time, I would not imagine someone having the foresight to know this day would come, or to guess how to get the right substances to confuse us with. I am of the belief the particles will prove to be more mundane than we give them credit for. Not that belief matters, of course. It's all guesses.

Fly's theory that he may have used the tie to wipe off fingerprints is a good one. It would certainly explain particles from many different types of surfaces. 

The dumpster idea is also good.

I've never understood why people seem so opposed to the thrift store idea, either. I've bought 98% of all the ties I've ever owned at one. In fact I've never been to a thrift store that didn't have maybe 100 ties at the end of the suit rack. Old people die and their children pass on their clothes to the thrift store. Old men have lots of ties. I'm not sure how that's even a question for some. 

I'd still be curious to know what would come of someone swabbing that parachute pack. That's something that would reliably be in contact with lots of airplane-related surfaces of all kinds. It might even have had flares in the mix. It's something we know Cooper was in contact with. If it were me that might even be the first place I'd check, if I had to choose one.

Tina described the red sticks as being six inches long which is not consistent with road flares. 

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3 hours ago, Math of Insects said:


I recall someone knowledgable saying the profile basically revealed every substance on earth and that even the outliers could be explained as aspects of other things there, so it wasn't meaningful investigatorily. I don't remember who that was, though.
 

If, and it’s a big if, Tom determines those 3 TiSb particles are actually alloys and not random fuzzballs, then it’s really going to be difficult to claim this is a random conglomeration of chemicals and elements. A non-commercial Ti(highSb) alloy shouldn’t be on anyone’s clothing in the tie era.

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45 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

If, and it’s a big if, Tom determines those 3 TiSb particles are actually alloys and not random fuzzballs, then it’s really going to be difficult to claim this is a random conglomeration of chemicals and elements. A non-commercial Ti(highSb) alloy shouldn’t be on anyone’s clothing in the tie era.

Nonsense.. there is nothing in that patent that indicates these particles (if alloys) are exclusive..

There was lots of high tech stuff going on in the 60's, industrial, military, electronics, NASA and weapons..

The patent does not prove exclusivity. That is a fallacy.

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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5 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Tina described the red sticks as being six inches long which is not consistent with road flares. 

No she did not!  Stop making stuff up. Tina quoted said:

"eight cylindrical objects about six to eight inches long with four of the items being placed on top of the others and banded together with (black) tape. " (Interview 11-30 Mucklow)

BTW: Tina was the daughter of a career electrician .... she watched him and talked to him about his work as a kid ...

 

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, Slim King said:

Obviously you haven't done your research. I can't spoon feed you what is already on the record.

37846636_443273856163901_4010872131540746240_n.jpeg

I have done research that is why I am asking you, you have no problem spoon feeding the forum endless Reca/Peca nonsense. I am just asking for some facts this time.

Your inability to answer is telling..

Again, what date did Reca leave his family in Mi and move to Wa,, and when did he move back.

and other than the unreliable tapes what evidence do you have that Reca/Peca knew of Cossey, knew him personally or colluded with him with the chutes.

Simple..

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On 6/13/2008 at 3:42 PM, Ckret said:

Back to the NB6, Cossey modified the chute, we know that from the 28' canopy. And when we spoke he said he placed the handle under the right armpit. The motion he showed me was that Cooper would have had to hook his right thumb in the handle and push straight out, like a bench press motion. Once fully extended, he would have had to rotate his fully extended arm up over his head.

Does this make sense? or did he just demonstrate right handed and he really meant left?

This is where Gryder mistakenly got the chute modification was moving the handle from left to right..

Cossey never said that, he said the pull was modified to out and up.

Further, Cossey was describing his own chute not Hayden's chute the one Cooper used.

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1 hour ago, Slim King said:

Currently road flares are about a foot long. I don't think they were shorter in the 70's. I think they were about a foot long.

Screen Shot 2022-11-30 at 11.32.18 PM.png

The bomb could have been any type of pyro.. not limited to flares.

I have seen vintage road flares about 8" long.. 

but there are many types of flares.

 

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20 minutes ago, Slim King said:

They loved to watch Peca Jump!!!! Jumping with a Santa bag might be pretty good rehearsal for jumping with $200,000.00

Your inability to answer is telling..

Again, what date did Reca leave his family in Mi and move to Wa,, and when did he move back.

and other than the unreliable tapes what evidence do you have that Reca/Peca knew of Cossey, knew him personally or colluded with him with the chutes.

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21 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Are the Vordahl elements and the Petersen elements the same part #s on the McCrone sheets? I've got all of those on separate tabs and was hoping someone could point me to who is using which ones.  The Crucible patent calls for Zirconium, Silver, Tin, and Aluminum along with the Titanium and Antimony that Petersen would have been in contact with.  Are all those found together?  I'm trying to understand what Zirconium is used for.  I feel comfortable analyzing quite a bit of subjects, but mettalurgy is one of those areas I'd feel more comfortable talking to a PhD about. But figure for laymans terms, someone on this group can probably get us in the right area.  It is all very interesting and I was going to chat with Tom Kaye, but on Citizen Sleuths he says "This data is complicated to look at. Please do not email asking how to interpret it."

For full disclosure, I wrote on my blog a number of years ago that I was skeptical of the Titanium being from some Top Secret area of research, given that Titanium was in such demand that we had to import it from the Russians during the Cold War.

No one has Eric's particles listed or the location the McCrone report???

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I don't have the Excel file handy. I was particularly interested in the Zirconium and partially interested in the Silver and Tin.  Is that further down the column?  As I remember each stub had something like 30-40 particles listed.

Are the Vordahl stubs the same as the Petersen ones or different?  Eric was talking salt, which I'm guessing is Na.  Where is that on these stubs (674 and 675)?

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10 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I don't have the Excel file handy. I was particularly interested in the Zirconium and partially interested in the Silver and Tin.  Is that further down the column?  As I remember each stub had something like 30-40 particles listed.

Are the Vordahl stubs the same as the Petersen ones or different?  Eric was talking salt, which I'm guessing is Na.  Where is that on these stubs (674 and 675)?

I'm complete shit when it comes to going through the McCrone spreadsheets. They confuse the hell out of me so I'm of no use finding stuff in it. Chris Broer is the master of the McCrone spreadsheet. 

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking about whether the Vordahl stubs are different than Petersen's. Those 3 TiSb particles were the reason Ulis looked into RemCru. Those same 3 particles are what led us to Vordahl since he was the only person at RemCru verified to have come into contact with TiSb alloys during the tie era. 

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5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I'm complete shit when it comes to going through the McCrone spreadsheets. They confuse the hell out of me so I'm of no use finding stuff in it. Chris Broer is the master of the McCrone spreadsheet. 

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking about whether the Vordahl stubs are different than Petersen's. Those 3 TiSb particles were the reason Ulis looked into RemCru. Those same 3 particles are what led us to Vordahl since he was the only person at RemCru verified to have come into contact with TiSb alloys during the tie era. 

I have a philosophical question:

Do you and your fellow Remcru investigators anticipate feeling at least a wee bit of wistfulness if you indeed crack the Cooper case?

He is one of the last true American folk heroes. And that status is largely dependent upon the fact that the man is a phantom, a wisp.

(I would add that the folk hero status is also highly and perhaps mostly dependent upon persons such as yourself and everyone else here who is trying, without avail, to identify Dan Cooper.)

Edited by Eight Raleighs

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5 minutes ago, Eight Raleighs said:

 

Do you and your fellow Remcru investigators anticipate feeling at least a wee bit of wistfulness if you indeed crack the Cooper case?

 

Not at all. I think most people who are interested in the Cooper case just want to know who he was. It's like saying that people who are into Bigfoot wouldn't want to see an actual Bigfoot. 

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3 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Not at all. I think most people who are interested in the Cooper case just want to know who he was. It's like saying that people who are into Bigfoot wouldn't want to see an actual Bigfoot. 

Arguably the folk legend would grow if it is established that he survived and lived another 10, 20, 30 years.

It would just be a different legend, I suppose.

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4 minutes ago, Slim King said:

 I get my information from "Coopers" friends, the testimony of Carl Lauren and his wife. Please actually read the books. I'm not going to waste time on this forum explaining what has already been revealed. Walter skipped out of state (Mi) after the Bob's Big Boy robbery (Where he gave the Waitress $100 as he fled) and was basically on the lamb. He took a job in Washington as a welder working for a CIA front corporation called Vinnell. He was employed at the dams construction site in 1971 when he hijacked the plane. The Dr. there reported that Walter had a broken leg the Monday after Thanksgiving weekend. Walter claimed it happened on the job but the Dr. didn't really agree. Walter had broken both legs and an arm in his history of barnstorming jumps. I would believe the tapes before I'd believe any bogus FBI 302. The FBI is leading you guys around by the nose.

Carl isn't reliable. Carl said he lost contact with Reca/Peca for that time period. His info is either from Reca/Peca and made up or Carl made it up. 

You have lots of claims but no evidence.

So, Reca/Peca left Mi when,, in 1965? right after the robbery or when? later?, and he left his wife and kid in Mi to flee to Wa.. when did he eventually return to Mi? What abut his wife and kid in Mi, did they re-unite? if so, when? What years was Reca/Peca in Wa after leaving his family in Mi?

and you still have presented no evidence he knew of Cossey, knew Cossey personally or colluded with Cossey about the chutes despite claiming it over and over.

These aren't difficult questions.

 

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