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DB Cooper

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The Cooper case over the last 20 years (or maybe more) makes for a great case study in how people will selectively cherry-pick "evidence" to push a particular conclusion, in this case the veracity of their "suspects." Such a book would make a fine addition to the Cooper oeurve.  Perhaps I'll take it on myself!

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7 hours ago, Slim King said:

Air travel in 1971 was easy. Like riding a bus. Give the folks your money and tell them your name (No ID needed) and you could get on the plane while your entire family walked to the gate with you and watch you fly away. That all changed after Cooper, McCoy, and the rest. Hindsight is 20/20 !!! It's easy to see that "Somebody" wanted to restrict your movements and know exactly where everyone is at all times. Within a year of COOPER the metal detectors and ID's were required (Someone made a fortune on those metal detectors)

Screen Shot 2022-08-23 at 8.26.19 AM.png

You still won't answer some of your claims.. that seems key to deception.

Other than the unreliable tapes, what proof do you have that Reca/Peca either knew of Cossey, knew him personally or colluded with him.

and when did Reca/Peca leave his family and go to Wa and when did he return to Mi.

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Ulis has lost it as well.. he says he is applying science then builds an argument of conjecture and assumptions.. 

Gryder has just proved he is a fraud with that fake Cooper chute container..

The Reca/Peca narrative is completely ridiculous.. they don't even try to fit the evidence, make sense or be rational.

It is a Vortex induced mass formation psychosis..  

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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I found lots of 95% Al, 5% Mg particles on the tie, this is called Magnalium and it comes in different ratio's but this ratio is softer and in powder form is primarily used in pyrotechnics, explosives, flares, rocket fuel.. In ratio's of more MG it is used to form airplane and auto parts. More Mg makes it more brittle.

All these particles (this pic a sample, not all) indicate powder form exposure.. 

It may be from the "bomb".. flares or a firework..

Earlier, I had posted a match for many of the particles, a hand held sparkler.. It produces bright yellow white sparks.

So, pyrotechnics is a big use, commercial, military or retail,, 

but I am looking for other uses..

 

1223929363_ScreenShot2022-11-29at7_24_44PM.png.d9ba6b60c0c182147afc7ab59d208d77.png

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8 hours ago, Slim King said:

Air travel in 1971 was easy. Like riding a bus. Give the folks your money and tell them your name (No ID needed) and you could get on the plane while your entire family walked to the gate with you and watch you fly away. That all changed after Cooper, McCoy, and the rest. Hindsight is 20/20 !!! It's easy to see that "Somebody" wanted to restrict your movements and know exactly where everyone is at all times. Within a year of COOPER the metal detectors and ID's were required (Someone made a fortune on those metal detectors)

Screen Shot 2022-08-23 at 8.26.19 AM.png

So within a year of Cooper, which would be late 1972, everyone had to pass through metal detectors and ID's were required? 

Post 1972, I was passing through airline terminals at Los Angeles, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Kansas City, Dallas, St. Louis, Memphis, Chicago, Atlanta, Dulles, Philadelphia, and numerous other locations on a regular basis.

I don't remember even seeing a metal detector in an airport in the 1970s.  Nor do I remember being asked for my ID just to buy a ticket.

Slim King, your claims are nonsense. 

Edited by Robert99

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The conspiracy theories strike me as mostly utter nonsense. Dan Cooper was almost certainly Pacific Northwest resident who hijacked an airplane in order to secure $200,000. He acted alone. 

Short of legitimate evidence indicating otherwise, everything else strikes me as an embellishment intended to kill time or as a grift.

Edited by Eight Raleighs

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18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I found lots of 95% Al, 5% Mg particles on the tie, this is called Magnalium and it comes in different ratio's but this ratio is softer and in powder form is primarily used in pyrotechnics, explosives, flares, rocket fuel.. In ratio's of more MG it is used to form airplane and auto parts. More Mg makes it more brittle.

All these particles (this pic a sample, not all) indicate powder form exposure.. 

It may be from the "bomb".. flares or a firework..

Earlier, I had posted a match for many of the particles, a hand held sparkler.. It produces bright yellow white sparks.

So, pyrotechnics is a big use, commercial, military or retail,, 

but I am looking for other uses..

 

1223929363_ScreenShot2022-11-29at7_24_44PM.png.d9ba6b60c0c182147afc7ab59d208d77.png

Or matches/lighters. Cigarettes even for many of the particles. The underside of the parachute strap for others. This is why controls are needed. 

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16 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I found lots of 95% Al, 5% Mg particles on the tie, this is called Magnalium and it comes in different ratio's but this ratio is softer and in powder form is primarily used in pyrotechnics, explosives, flares, rocket fuel.. In ratio's of more MG it is used to form airplane and auto parts. More Mg makes it more brittle.

All these particles (this pic a sample, not all) indicate powder form exposure.. 

It may be from the "bomb".. flares or a firework..

Earlier, I had posted a match for many of the particles, a hand held sparkler.. It produces bright yellow white sparks.

So, pyrotechnics is a big use, commercial, military or retail,, 

but I am looking for other uses..

 

1223929363_ScreenShot2022-11-29at7_24_44PM.png.d9ba6b60c0c182147afc7ab59d208d77.png

Are the Vordahl elements and the Petersen elements the same part #s on the McCrone sheets? I've got all of those on separate tabs and was hoping someone could point me to who is using which ones.  The Crucible patent calls for Zirconium, Silver, Tin, and Aluminum along with the Titanium and Antimony that Petersen would have been in contact with.  Are all those found together?  I'm trying to understand what Zirconium is used for.  I feel comfortable analyzing quite a bit of subjects, but mettalurgy is one of those areas I'd feel more comfortable talking to a PhD about. But figure for laymans terms, someone on this group can probably get us in the right area.  It is all very interesting and I was going to chat with Tom Kaye, but on Citizen Sleuths he says "This data is complicated to look at. Please do not email asking how to interpret it."

For full disclosure, I wrote on my blog a number of years ago that I was skeptical of the Titanium being from some Top Secret area of research, given that Titanium was in such demand that we had to import it from the Russians during the Cold War.

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44 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Or matches/lighters. Cigarettes even for many of the particles. The underside of the parachute strap for others. This is why controls are needed. 

So far, I haven't found it as an ingredient for matches, Tom tested a period lighter and it was negative..

Controls are ideal but not practical.. there are over 100,000 particles on the stubs and those stubs don't even cover the entire tie,,, there may be 500,000 particles on the tie..

The particles and combinations are beyond any ability to implement controls.. far too many variables

Edited by FLYJACK
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3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

So far, I haven't found it as an ingredient for matches, Tom tested a period lighter and it was negative..

Controls are ideal but not practical.. there are over 100,000 particles on the stubs and those stubs don't even cover the entire tie,,,

The particles and combinations are beyond any ability to implement controls.. far too many variables

Controls do let you know which particles are truly outliers or noteworthy, and which would be on anything from that environment, or circumstances, or even blank lab slides/stubs. 

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2 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Controls do let you know which particles are truly outliers or noteworthy, and which would be on anything from that environment, or circumstances, or even blank lab slides/stubs. 

How do you know, you can't.. controls are an assumption based on knowns.

Controls here are very limiting.. there are too many combinations and potential sources..

You just can't create controls for a particle in the mid 60's.. you don't know what you don't know.

This is the logical flaw Ulis has.. he claims he searched and the patent was the only source for those 3 particles.. His "control" is flawed because he assumes he has all the information needed, of course he doesn't.

In regards to the tie particles in the 60's controls become subjective limited to assumptions.. they are not certain.

Sure, desiring controls is ideal, but it just isn't practical in this case. 

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56 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I found lots of 95% Al, 5% Mg particles on the tie, this is called Magnalium and it comes in different ratio's but this ratio is softer and in powder form is primarily used in pyrotechnics, explosives, flares, rocket fuel.. In ratio's of more MG it is used to form airplane and auto parts. More Mg makes it more brittle.

All these particles (this pic a sample, not all) indicate powder form exposure.. 

It may be from the "bomb".. flares or a firework..

Earlier, I had posted a match for many of the particles, a hand held sparkler.. It produces bright yellow white sparks.

So, pyrotechnics is a big use, commercial, military or retail,, 

but I am looking for other uses..

 

1223929363_ScreenShot2022-11-29at7_24_44PM.png.d9ba6b60c0c182147afc7ab59d208d77.png

Brass, copper, lead, and an element soup associated with gunshot residue all show up on the tie. 
 

 

78690FF5-D7D3-4418-9511-739E823E7363.jpeg

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8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

How do you know, you can't.. controls are an assumption based on knowns.

Controls here are very limiting.. there are too many combinations and potential sources..

You just can't create controls for a particle in the mid 60's.. you don't know what you don't know.

This is the logical flaw Ulis has.. he claims he searched and the patent was the only source for those 3 particles.. His "control" is flawed because he assumes he has all the information needed, of course he doesn't.

In regards to the tie particles in the 60's controls become subjective limited to assumptions.. they are not certain.

Sure, desiring controls is ideal, but it just isn't practical in this case. 

We disagree on this. Blank slides, blank stubs, different ties of the same material, anything that's been in an airplane, anything associated with a smoker, anything associated with those chutes, anything associated with seats under the exhaust system...these all help rule out certain items that may look significant but are not. Not running control tests alongside the particle analysis is IMO inexcusable. Lest we forget, the DNA testing was scuttled by material on the slide from the lab. 

I am not saying we start with fishy particles and go looking to see what else has them. I am saying test ANYTHING else in the realm and get a sense of whether or not those particles are truly fishy after all. This has to be done for the rest to mean anything.

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2 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

We disagree on this. Blank slides, blank stubs, different ties of the same material, anything that's been in an airplane, anything associated with a smoker, anything associated with those chutes, anything associated with seats under the exhaust system...these all help rule out certain items that may look significant but are not. Not running control tests alongside the particle analysis is IMO inexcusable. Lest we forget, the DNA testing was scuttled by material on the slide from the lab. 

I am not saying we start with fishy particles and go looking to see what else has them. I am saying test ANYTHING else in the realm and get a sense of whether or not those particles are truly fishy after all. This has to be done for the rest to mean anything.

We disagree on the degree if usefulness in this case..

The particles are not like DNA.. which has one source,, the particle combinations and sources are virtually limitless and unknown. Controls are only as good as your ability to think them up.. 

There is no way to create adequate controls for over 100,000 identified and probably another 400,000 more unidentified particles deposited on a tie in the 60's over a 7 year period.. the controls you can come up with are extremely limiting and inconclusive.

You keep repeating we need controls which is true,, but in this case it is not practical and has limited effect.

Controls are effective when you know all the variables..

The biggest clue from this tie is the wide variety of particles.. it was not from a single environment.

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11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

We disagree on the degree if usefulness in this case..

The particles are not like DNA.. which has one source,, the particle combinations and sources are virtually limitless and unknown. Controls are only as good as your ability to think them up.. 

There is no way to create adequate controls for over 100,000 identified and probably another 400,000 more unidentified particles deposited on a tie in the 60's over a 7 year period.. the controls you can come up with are extremely limiting and inconclusive.

You keep repeating we need controls which is true,, but in this case it is not practical and has limited effect.

Controls are effective when you know all the variables..

The biggest clue from this tie is the wide variety of particles.. it was not from a single environment.

All of that may be true, we don’t know. But on the other hand, if Tom tests your polyester Dacron tie, and the particle profile is exactly the same as the one he got from Cooper’s, that let us know that the particles are not as meaningful as we thought. The rest becomes moot.

Anyway, we’ve beat that horse enough. We see this one differently. That’s what makes the world go round…

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The rig that Dan Gryer came up with is a combination of  an NB8 container( extended) and a B12 harness.Now pay close attention here..look at the Ripcord handle.That diagonal tubing inside of the Ripcord,that indicates it is an NB8 ripcord.Why is this significant? The NB 8 has a closer pin spacing than a B12/B4.You have to use the NB8 Ripcord. An NB 8 Ripcord WILL NOT work on a B12 container .

Edited by kcaero
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4 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

All of that may be true, we don’t know. But on the other hand, if Tom tests your polyester Dacron tie, and the particle profile is exactly the same as the one he got from Cooper’s, that let us know that the particles are not as meaningful as we thought. The rest becomes moot.

Anyway, we’ve beat that horse enough. We see this one differently. That’s what makes the world go round…

At best, it may tell us something about a few of the particles.. that is my point.

It is very limiting.. you think you can control for 500,000 particles.. most unidentified.

 

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27 minutes ago, kcaero said:

The rig that Dan Gryer came up with is a combination of  an NB8 container( extended) and a B12 harness.Now pay close attention here..look at the Ripcord handle.That diagonal tubing inside of the Ripcord,that indicates it is an NB8 ripcord.Why is this significant? The NB 8 has a closer pin spacing than a B12/B4.You have to use the NB8 Ripcord. An NB 8 Ripcord WILL NOT work on a B12 container .

Does this mean that parachute is functional? (besides the age)

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58 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

All of that may be true, we don’t know. But on the other hand, if Tom tests your polyester Dacron tie, and the particle profile is exactly the same as the one he got from Cooper’s, that let us know that the particles are not as meaningful as we thought. The rest becomes moot.

Anyway, we’ve beat that horse enough. We see this one differently. That’s what makes the world go round…

Moreover, are there disparate or even contrary groups of particles on the tie ?  Particles that should not or cannot normally be found together ?  I am suspicious that this tie does not represent a tie normally worn in day-to-day work life, but is a cast-away that Cooper picked up and perhaps even intentionally left to confuse investigators. We know, for example, that one of Cooper's primary concerns when he got on the plane was the presence of air marshals, so he was very aware of the law enforcement implications of what he was doing. He knew LE would be checking for evidence after he left. Its not beyond reason that he tried to cover his tracks or confuse evidence collectors. He may have intentionally picked a tie or doctored a tie and left it, designed to confuse and boggle the minds of investigators.

I do not buy the Carr narrative that Cooper was a dumb ass and an amateur! I think Cooper considered risk assessment and his hijacking was no mere stunt by an uneducated person. He went to some length to build a device that looked like a bomb with correct wiring and wire coding, he picked the right plane in the right place at the right time, and he factually left no evidence that could be tracked directly to him. I think Cooper was a thoughtful person ... 

Is the tie an improbable assemblage of disparate particles not normally found in common existence?  Was the tie prepared in advance for the hijacking?

Was the tie a plant?  Cooper took his bomb with him so it could not be examined and traced!

Edited by georger

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45 minutes ago, kcaero said:

The rig that Dan Gryer came up with is a combination of  an NB8 container( extended) and a B12 harness.Now pay close attention here..look at the Ripcord handle.That diagonal tubing inside of the Ripcord,that indicates it is an NB8 ripcord.Why is this significant? The NB 8 has a closer pin spacing than a B12/B4.You have to use the NB8 Ripcord. An NB 8 Ripcord WILL NOT work on a B12 container .

So Cossey packed an unusable chute that did not work ! ? ]:)  Cossey packed the chute for Mr Hayden, not for DB Cooper!

Edited by georger

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Over Thanksgiving, I was able to sit down and talk with my father about his time at Boeing, as well as General Dynamics, in the 70s.   I asked him if he still had a tie.....said he was going to check, wouldn't hold my breath on this but if anything comes of it I will post it to the board to see if it would be useful.

I believe that Fly has already sent another tie to TK as another data point, just waiting on the broken SEM part or something, hope it's not coming from China !

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13 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Over Thanksgiving, I was able to sit down and talk with my father about his time at Boeing, as well as General Dynamics, in the 70s.   I asked him if he still had a tie.....said he was going to check, wouldn't hold my breath on this but if anything comes of it I will post it to the board to see if it would be useful.

I believe that Fly has already sent another tie to TK as another data point, just waiting on the broken SEM part or something, hope it's not coming from China !

My suspicion is the Cooper is so special its off the charts compared to any other tie on Earth!

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2 hours ago, georger said:

We already have one set of controls operating with the tie - Boeing workplace ties vs the Cooper tie. That report alone makes the Cooper tie special ... off the charts? 

It's true, although it's not really a control, it's checking out a guess. Fly's will be closer. I wish we could swab the seat Cooper was in…

I recall someone knowledgable saying the profile basically revealed every substance on earth and that even the outliers could be explained as aspects of other things there, so it wasn't meaningful investigatorily. I don't remember who that was, though.

Is this in your realm?

Edited by Math of Insects
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