DB Cooper

[georger 194]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

and now you're saying that there are "powers that be" advising you not to do things

OK...  this user considers you both very valuable assets - hands down!   Civility Please .  

There has been enough turmoil in Cooperland.  

Thanks to you both and everyone else.  Life is tough these days and I have had a very shitty week so far ..... I have coffee brewing and am going to get it now and curl back into my office chair .... 

Just blame everything on Georger.

Edited November 23, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 464]

39 minutes ago, georger said:

OK...  this user considers you both very valuable assets - hands down!   Civility Please .  

There has been enough turmoil in Cooperland.  

Thanks to you both and everyone else.  Life is tough these days and I have had a very shitty week so far ..... I have coffee brewing and am going to get it now and curl back into my office chair .... 

Just blame everything on Georger.

I sent you a private message about something 

[CooperNWO305 146]

41 minutes ago, georger said:

OK...  this user considers you both very valuable assets - hands down!   Civility Please .  

There has been enough turmoil in Cooperland.  

Thanks to you both and everyone else.  Life is tough these days and I have had a very shitty week so far ..... I have coffee brewing and am going to get it now and curl back into my office chair .... 

Just blame everything on Georger.

It would be good if we can stick to discussing the suspect and the information. This is not the first time someone has questioned Flyjack’s information.  So I’ll step in and say that I am one of the people who has seen it and heard about other information. I find it compelling and even possibly useful to parts of my case, but it is his info and he can decide what he wants to share.  I won’t discuss things told to me in confidence.  I find he is rarely wrong, and I have not known him to lie. He is pretty well known in certain circles for the guitar find. I like music, but not as much as some people in the industry. I’ve had people very well versed tell me how cool that guitar story is. Once someone gets on the radar outside of the Vortex, they have to play by new rules, especially with the media. So if he is waiting to reveal info about Hahneman then that’s his choice. Hahneman has a story of his own outside of DB Cooper. I’ve seen more than one Cooperite have to play their cards close once they get a little famous. I’m happy for them. The spotlight is not where I want to be a lot. 
 

When it comes to information sharing, I find  it much better when we all generally get along. I understand there is some bad blood between some of you. I’d like to see all of you stay on the case. I come to DZ almost exclusively to interact with Fly and Georger because they are not on the other boards much.  Not using them as a resource is a loss for anyone who wants to learn more. Flyjack was the first one I interacted with who had the bills cataloged and searchable and all the 302s searchable. Long before I met many of you, I said he was the best researcher on the case. That bothers some of my other friends. Oh well. He could probably cool down here and there, but so could some of you. 
 

I’ve learned that once you have a suspect, you’re going to get called out. It happens to all of us. It happened to Eric with Sheridan, and to me, and to Reca and others. Fighting every battle will wear you out. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by CooperNWO305

[Math of Insects 95]

I personally find the interpersonal sniping to be a drag. Maybe inevitable, but it’s counterproductive. If I want to see people who are generally the same undermining and impugning each other, I’ll go to my family’s Thanksgiving meal.

 

What is the guitar story?

[The Cooper Vortex 73]

New episode out now! DB Cooper’s taped confession with Vern Jones. Enjoy!

 

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-taped-confession-vern-jones/

[CooperNWO305 146]

2 hours ago, The Cooper Vortex said:

New episode out now! DB Cooper’s taped confession with Vern Jones. Enjoy!

 

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-taped-confession-vern-jones/

Darren: We all love your podcast and can appreciate your neutrality.  But I don't have the same obligations you have.  The difference between the Reca group and the rest of us is that they get the facts of the case completely wrong.  We all argue about suspects, but that is around the interpretation of information, not making up information.

Complete fantasy.  I have serious issue with people like this, especially if they vote in our elections.  I'm a few miles from the January 6th incident.

I've served in the military and come from a decent family line of service.  These guys invoking Walt's embellished military career is a disgrace.

No I haven't read the book or seen the movies or whatever else they have.  I didn't finish Mein Kampf either, but I read enough know what is in there.  If someone reads one paragraph on Wiki and comments, then ok, I get that they should probably get more information.  But how many in the Vortex have only read one paragraph on Reca?

Did I hear that one of their editors came to them about their uncle? No bias there.

Walt assassinated someone in The Netherlands?

Lisa was a nice woman, but she really wants to believe this.

Vern says a gust carried Walt to Cle Elum.  A wind gust carried him 100 miles? He discounts the side door of the plane as an issue.  I've skydived many times, and not tandem. You don't go out the side door of a 727 going that fast.

This group comes across as better than the rest of us. Like we are stupid, like we should believe things they believe.

If I lie to you and you take a lie detector test, you will pass.  You are being honest.

 

[olemisscub 464]

The intellectual dishonesty of the Reca crew is even worse than what Jo did, in my opinion. Jo very obviously suffered from some sort of mental illness. A man like Vern seemingly does not.

As stated above, they’re not only being flagrantly dismissive about very clear facts about the Cooper case but they are essentially engaging in Stolen Valor. It is not prosecutable Stolen Valor since Reca himself isn’t pushing these military fabrications to sell books and make a profit for himself, but it’s extremely distasteful. 

[Andrade1812 51]

That podcast was something else... good ol' Vern, bless his heart.

[georger 194]

What did Tom Kaye say in CC22 that he hasnt already said before? Anything? Any new forensic "evidence" ? Any new areas of inquiry planned?  Anything actually new? 

Until somebody comes up with something "actionable" in the Cooper case, discussing suspects to death is a dead end.  Each one of these suspects, socalled, only fragments the case further since none of these stories has anything "actionable".  People can sit in the DB Cooper Ward IV and make up stories until the end of time but it contributes nothing to the case except to diminish and dilute the case over time.

Why hasn't Darren interviewed Dorwin Schreuder?  Is Darren afraid of what Dorwin may say?       

 

[Math of Insects 95]

My KGB name is Math of Incepts.

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

11 minutes ago, georger said:

What did Tom Kaye say in CC22 that he hasnt already said before? Anything? Any new forensic "evidence" ? Any new areas of inquiry planned?  Anything actually new? 

Until somebody comes up with something "actionable" in the Cooper case, discussing suspects to death is a dead end.  Each one of these suspects, socalled, only fragments the case further since none of these stories has anything "actionable".  People can sit in the DB Cooper Ward IV and make up stories until the end of time but it contributes nothing to the case except to diminish and dilute the case over time.

Why hasn't Darren interviewed Dorwin Schreuder?  Is Darren afraid of what Dorwin may say?       

 

Tom is waiting on a part for his new electron microscope that’s on back order from oversees so he can examine the three TiSb particles individually. We also have to work badges for Milton that Tom is going to take a look at that appear to have particles on them. Here is one from his time at midland. 

[Math of Insects 95]

I've said it many times and will continue saying it: without control groups, nothing found on that badge or anything else means anything. You can't start with the foregone conclusion (e.g., it was Vordahl, or a Boeing employee, etc) and work backward; you have to start with real information (what particles can truly said to be anomolies?) and work forward. That can only be determined by testing against controls.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Math of Insects

[olemisscub 464]

13 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

I've said it many times and will continue saying it: without control groups, nothing found on that badge or anything else means anything. You can't start with the foregone conclusion (e.g., it was Vordahl, or a Boeing employee, etc) and work backward; you have to start with real information (what particles can truly said to be anomolies?) and work forward. That can only be determined by testing against controls.

That’s exactly the kind of thing a KGB agent would say.  

[Eight Raleighs 12]

I suspect these guys would like nothing more than to set up a wide-ranging, airtight scientific inquiry, given unlimited time and resources. Short of that, they are working with what they have.

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

1 hour ago, Math of Insects said:

I've said it many times and will continue saying it: without control groups, nothing found on that badge or anything else means anything. You can't start with the foregone conclusion (e.g., it was Vordahl, or a Boeing employee, etc) and work backward; you have to start with real information (what particles can truly said to be anomolies?) and work forward. That can only be determined by testing against controls.

Appreciate the concern but we got it covered. I have a real sharp metallurgist out of Albany OR who I’ve been working with to do just that. Interesting thing is he independently arrived at milton and when I told him he’s like yeah that’s who I’ve been looking at too. We have a pretty good idea of what’s what on the EDS but it’s not an exact science…it’s really easy to misinterpret things if you don’t have images. The great thing for us is Tom is armed with this new scope so we’ll know by looking at it if it is what it reads on the analysis. Tom did some cursory work right after the McCrone test and identified some of the anomaly particles as well but that was with a much older scope then what he has now. The clarity and vision with his new scope is like night and day he says. Tom seemed pretty excited about the prospects. Let’s test it and see what it tells us you can never have enough information. Hey if it turns out that there’s a bunch of particles on his badge that don’t match any of the stubs taken from the tie well then maybe it’s time to reevaluate.  Thanks for the advice but I’ll continue to work under the tutelage of metallurgists and scientists they’ll know best what controls are required not some two bit musician. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Nicholas Broughton

[Math of Insects 95]

7 minutes ago, Eight Raleighs said:

I suspect these guys would like nothing more than to set up a wide-ranging, airtight scientific inquiry, given unlimited time and resources. Short of that, they are working with what they have.

There's a lot to unpack in that. Certainly one would assume a blank slide would be among "what they have." Anyone's necktie(s). Anything that has ever been on an airplane. And so forth.

But also, inherent in that statement is an acknowledgment of the limitations of the results as a meaningful resource, until "they have" more.

That acknowledgment would also be the caution against taking any of those results as gospel, until better data is acquired. Yes? 

[Math of Insects 95]

Metallurgists. Plurals never take an apostrophe.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Math of Insects

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

3 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Metallurgists. Plurals never take an apostrophe.

Corrected the typo thanks! 

[Math of Insects 95]

2 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Corrected the typo thanks! 

For better or worse, the way people write is the only means most of us have for gauging their intellectual worthiness. Even the act of going back and proofreading suggests a fastidiousness that might create confidence in the rest of their endeavors. When I see writing that looks like it was dashed off without thought, right or wrong I assume other aspects of that person's work might also be dashed off. 

I think there are some holes in the chain of assumptions needed to get to Vordahl. They don't start with analyzing the particle data; they start with the way the data was collected. There is an additional one in getting from the analysis to the suspect you favor. These are not minor. 

Starting with the suspect and going backward is going to yield lots of cool connections. He's a compelling dude! The trick is to make the particle information bulletproof, then make a bulletproof connection between it and your guy, and -- maybe most important? -- put your guy on a terrorist mission on that airplane, in November, 1971. 

Lack of attention to the detail needed to plug these holes makes everything else dismissable.

I'm not saying he's not a great visual match--I think he's pretty good! The lip, the little dip in the hairline. But there is still 0 way of knowing if the particle profile means a single thing, and without that, you don't have a suspect. 

Just my two bits.
 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Math of Insects

[Eight Raleighs 12]

7 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

There's a lot to unpack in that. Certainly one would assume a blank slide would be among "what they have." Anyone's necktie(s). Anything that has ever been on an airplane. And so forth.

But also, inherent in that statement is an acknowledgment of the limitations of the results as a meaningful resource, until "they have" more.

That acknowledgment would also be the caution against taking any of those results as gospel, until better data is acquired. Yes? 

Unquestionably. I view what has been performed thus far as an entry point to 1. identifying a possible suspect; and 2. then seeking out more “actionable” evidence. 

[Eight Raleighs 12]

No fighting on D.B. Cooper Day!

[JAGdb 69]

Happy Thanksgiving, wishing you all good vibes and blessings.

Here's the weather 51 years to the date:

https://weather.com/weather/today/l/a98c381daaa0619a6a851824227104cef1fde6d16236a2a8cb1d8385f9bcef0d

DB, I mean Dan, would have had it a little easier if he jumped tonight.

 

[Coopericane 44]

Quote

Would anyone like to hazard a guess at what Max Gunther's wife's name was?

Dorothy.

Do_____.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Quote

This has been a pretty good back and forth, a good exploration so to speak on the different possibilities with different perspectives and inputs on this anomaly in the letter.  

I wasn't married to the Dolores option, was just positing the idea since the "Gunther" part of the Copper story has been linked to the WJS suspect and it was part of the discussion.  

But, as Math and Fly pointed out, certainly could be other options.  After this discussion, I tend to lean to maybe just a simple typo, after all the D is in close enough proximity to the C on the keyboard and nobody is perfect, may have just been a misguided finger strike.  

Now, as Fly mentioned, that he was going to check some of the other typed "Cooper" letters, that would be something if any could be linked to the Gunther letter.

Not to poke at too old of a topic, but... guess what Vordahl's wife was named? I'm not convinced of any one possibility, but I just made this connection in my head after looking into Vordahl a little bit more.

[CooperNWO305 146]

There was a question about the guitar I mentioned. This is the article. It mentions DB Cooper. There are some pretty solid researchers on the case. Here is one. 
 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/10/16/entertainment/bachman-guitar-found-trnd/index.html

[Math of Insects 95]

1 hour ago, Coopericane said:

Not to poke at too old of a topic, but... guess what Vordahl's wife was named? I'm not convinced of any one possibility, but I just made this connection in my head after looking into Vordahl a little bit more.

Funny! Early wife though. Divorced by the 1940s.