DB Cooper

[Eight Raleighs 12]

19 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Yes. I have said all along that the most obvious reason that the tie might have particles related to the aircraft industry, is that it was found in an aircraft.

 

It also encountered the ‘chutes, which themselves had been in numerous aircraft and related environments.

 

Again: a simple and obvious set of control groups would address this very easily.

It is frustrating that essentially financial resources hold this back. Think about if the Discovery and/or Travel Channel had not jumped in, at some point? Think about if there were not Tom Kaye? This is probably what frustrates and/or fascinates many about this case - the idea that the answers are in reach, given the desire by people or agencies of means to actually solve it.

But the ones who have graciously stepped in have only been able to move the ball forward incrementally and arguably left more questions than answers in their wake, to no fault of their own.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Eight Raleighs

[FLYJACK 654]

39 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

Again: a simple and obvious set of control groups would address this very easily.

Easily,, in theory,, but not in practice..

Lots of testing and research can be done but will never be done..

I have been fighting for FBI docs that is approaching SIX years now..

I don't think they really want this thing solved..

We are on our own to figure it out.

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 197]

50 minutes ago, Eight Raleighs said:

It is frustrating that essentially financial resources hold this back. Think about if the Discovery and/or Travel Channel had not jumped in, at some point? Think about if there were not Tom Kaye? This is probably what frustrates and/or fascinates many about this case - the idea that the answers are in reach, given the desire by people or agencies of means to actually solve it.

But the ones who have graciously stepped in have only been able to move the ball forward incrementally and arguably left more questions than answers in their wake, to no fault of their own.

well said.

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, Eight Raleighs said:

It is frustrating that essentially financial resources hold this back. Think about if the Discovery and/or Travel Channel had not jumped in, at some point? Think about if there were not Tom Kaye? This is probably what frustrates and/or fascinates many about this case - the idea that the answers are in reach, given the desire by people or agencies of means to actually solve it.

But the ones who have graciously stepped in have only been able to move the ball forward incrementally and arguably left more questions than answers in their wake, to no fault of their own.

Its hard for me to believe that CC22 wasnt video taped. Is the world going to be allowed to see/hear the presentations? Or, how much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ does Ulis want ?  If these people want progress in the case they are going to have to share what they think or know! These people want attention when they have something to say - but seem unwilling to share what they have. Research is  a two-way street. One researcher always remarks: "This is DB Cooper. =  Chaos". If that is the only option then . . . . .

Edited November 21, 2022 by georger

[Eight Raleighs 12]

34 minutes ago, georger said:

Its hard for me to believe that CC22 wasnt video taped. Is the world going to be allowed to see/hear the presentations? Or, how much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ does Ulis want ?  If these people want progress in the case they are going to have to share what they think or know! These people want attention when they have something to say - but seem unwilling to share what they have. Research is  a two-way street. One researcher always remarks: "This is DB Cooper. =  Chaos". If that is the only option then . . . . .

I am willing to be patient on this - certainly the researchers will lay out their factual case, sooner than later. Whether that's a video from CooperCon, a separate video, or a blog post or post at this site or another, I expect that the cards will be on the table.

[CooperNWO305 146]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Its hard for me to believe that CC22 wasnt video taped. Is the world going to be allowed to see/hear the presentations? Or, how much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ does Ulis want ?  If these people want progress in the case they are going to have to share what they think or know! These people want attention when they have something to say - but seem unwilling to share what they have. Research is  a two-way street. One researcher always remarks: "This is DB Cooper. =  Chaos". If that is the only option then . . . . .

A good amount of it was taped via Facebook Live.  This has nothing to do with $$? No one is going to pay for a video of a panel of Cooperites talking.  You'd be a lot more informed if you were on Facebook, but I think there will be some people posting clips on YouTube. I did not see any cameras filming the whole event, but I may have missed it.

On another note. You must have contacts at McCrone or other SEM testing sites that could provide data from previous tests.  Some universities must have data too.  I've read excerpts of different types of tests. One was about testing food at cafeterias for metals that may have come from mixing equipment.  There was data output on that.  Somewhere in the world some group has tested clothing, or books, or paintings, or soil, etc.  ResearchGate.net has a bunch of files, but I can't seem to get the email approval link to come through my server at work (you need a legit job in STEM or something close to get an account).  I have the background, but my company is blocking the email for some reason. I'll keep working that angle.

This McCrone data seems somewhat standardized across different companies, therefore these companies will have the data.  If not, then we will have to wait on Tom Kaye. But the data Eric used was from McCrone, not Tom. I don't know if Tom can get us this output.  I believe he will be looking at the particles themselves to see what he can find.

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by CooperNWO305

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Its hard for me to believe that CC22 wasnt video taped. Is the world going to be allowed to see/hear the presentations? Or, how much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ does Ulis want ?  If these people want progress in the case they are going to have to share what they think or know! These people want attention when they have something to say - but seem unwilling to share what they have. Research is  a two-way street. One researcher always remarks: "This is DB Cooper. =  Chaos". If that is the only option then . . . . .

The Vordahl presentation was professionally filmed. It will be up on YouTube at some point I think. 

I happened to be filming Bill Mitchell during his discussion with Ulis when Mitchell pointed to Vordahl and just out of the blue volunteered that Vordahl's facial features seem right and that he does kinda look like him given what vague memory he still has. That made many folks in there sit up a bit because, as we all know, whenever he is shown a suspect photo Bill always has the stock answer of "it's been X number of years, Cooper could walk in the door and I wouldn't recognize him." 

I was able to have some nice moments with him over the weekend. We had breakfast in the hotel on Saturday and Sunday. We were the early risers so both days we were the first ones there when breakfast opened. So he had breakfast both days with Dave Fudeman and myself. Saturday morning he told us that he felt that the sketches (all of them) seemed too young for his memory of Cooper. He said that all these TV programs have always put forward these commandos and paratroopers and how the FBI always showed him photos of these guys and also of skydiving groups, etc., but he never felt it could be those type guys because that wasn't the vibe Cooper gave off. With me he used the phrase he has used before, stating that he always remembered Cooper as this geeky old man with awful hair. He told me during a break in between panels that the night of the hijacking an FBI agent asked him if he thought he could have won in a fight with Cooper and he told them he absolutely could have. He said Cooper was a good bit smaller than him. 

I asked Bill if he remembered the drunk cowboy and he said he can't recall the guy wearing a hat, but he does remember this obnoxious drunk on the plane who was several rows in front of him who came back and stood near him for several minutes talking to Tina. So he's pretty obviously remembering the cowboy. He said that when they were in the bus with the FBI agents that this same drunk raised his hand and told one of the agents something like "hey, when can we go? I've got to piss."

Oh, and Sunday he gave me his email and asked me to send him my stuff on Vordahl, so that was kinda neat. 

He also told a story about how he was traveling around the Northeast this past year with his wife and they stopped by at the United 93 memorial in Shanksville. He said he was really saddened by it and I'm not sure if he was crying or what but he said a female Park Ranger walked up and asked if he was OK and he told her "yes, it's just that I was on a hijacked plane a long time ago when I was young and I might could have been killed on it like these people and never had children or grandchildren." He said that she goes "D.B. Cooper hijacking? You're Bill Mitchell right?" So he thought that was wild to be recognized on the other side of the country. 

RPReplay_Final1668903697.mov

Edited November 21, 2022 by olemisscub

[Eight Raleighs 12]

27 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

The Vordahl presentation was professionally filmed. It will be up on YouTube at some point I think. 

I happened to be filming Bill Mitchell during his discussion with Ulis when Mitchell pointed to Vordahl and just out of the blue volunteered that Vordahl's facial features seem right and that he does kinda look like him given what vague memory he still has. That made many folks in there sit up a bit because, as we all know, whenever he is shown a suspect photo Bill always has the stock answer of "it's been X number of years, Cooper could walk in the door and I wouldn't recognize him." 

I was able to have some nice moments with him over the weekend. We had breakfast in the hotel on Saturday and Sunday. We were the early risers so both days we were the first ones there when breakfast opened. So he had breakfast both days with Dave Fudeman and myself. Saturday morning he told us that he felt that the sketches (all of them) seemed too young for his memory of Cooper. He said that all these TV programs have always put forward these commandos and paratroopers and how the FBI always showed him photos of these guys and also of skydiving groups, etc., but he never felt it could be those type guys because that wasn't the vibe Cooper gave off. With me he used the phrase he has used before, stating that he always remembered Cooper as this geeky old man with awful hair. He told me during a break in between panels that the night of the hijacking an FBI agent asked him if he thought he could have won in a fight with Cooper and he told them he absolutely could have. He said Cooper was a good bit smaller than him. 

I asked Bill if he remembered the drunk cowboy and he said he can't recall the guy wearing a hat, but he does remember this obnoxious drunk on the plane who was several rows in front of him who came back and stood near him for several minutes talking to Tina. So he's pretty obviously remembering the cowboy. He said that when they were in the bus with the FBI agents that this same drunk raised his hand and told one of the agents something like "hey, when can we go? I've got to piss."

Oh, and Sunday he gave me his email and asked me to send him my stuff on Vordahl, so that was kinda neat. 

He also told a story about how he was traveling around the Northeast this past year with his wife and they stopped by at the United 93 memorial in Shanksville. He said he was really saddened by it and I'm not sure if he was crying or what but he said a female Park Ranger walked up and asked if he was OK and he told her "yes, it's just that I was on a hijacked plane a long time ago when I was young and I might could have been killed on it like these people and never had children or grandchildren." He said that she goes "D.B. Cooper hijacking? You're Bill Mitchell right?" So he thought that was wild to be recognized on the other side of the country. 

RPReplay_Final1668903697.mov 3.25 MB · 0 downloads

Do you know if Tom Kaye is certain that the titanium-antimony particles are an alloy? Has he suggested that there are other possibilities? That was a point of discussion at this site over the last few days. Perhaps it was addressed during the Rem-Cru session last weekend.

[olemisscub 466]

6 hours ago, Rohmer said:

Hello all, nice to see the famous names from the podcast...

I notice some resemblance for Vordahl, but surely the age is a concern? Plus, wasn't Cooper described as athletic by witnesses? Can't imagine many 57 year-old men being perceived/described that way in 1971, unless they're Jack LaLanne or something.

 

Vordahl was very athletic and fits the FBI profile of Cooper being a middle aged man who exercised (a rarity in those days to be sure). Vordahl was a runner way before his time. We have writings of his where he talks about it from the 1960’s. As you know not many people did that back then. He was also a competitive amateur tennis and golf player. In fact, when you deep dive on him many of things you come across are stories or articles where he is competing and often placing or winning these tennis or golf tournaments. 
 

He was also into eating organic and all that. I believe one of his patents concerns something to do with organic food development.

Edited November 21, 2022 by olemisscub

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, Eight Raleighs said:

Do you know if Tom Kaye is certain that the titanium-antimony particles are an alloy? Has he suggested that there are other possibilities? That was a point of discussion at this site over the last few days. Perhaps it was addressed during the Rem-Cru session last weekend.

There are other verified titanium alloys found on the tie that he was able to visually confirm, so it stands to reason that given all the other chemicals on the tie (all used in metallurgy) that the titanium-antimony is what it appears to be. The issue is that the spectrum doesn’t really have an image attached to it. It just spits out what the particle is comprised of. So obviously we want to confirm that it actually is a non-commercial grade titanium-antimony particle through visual means. Tom’s microscope is currently missing a part that he is attempting to get fixed. So whenever that is done he will be able to search out these particles and visually confirm them as alloys (or not).
 

If it is confirmed to be a TiSb alloy there are only two places in the United States patent record between 1964-1971 that are confirmed to have been fooling around with TiSb alloys where the Sb went that high. Vordahl’s patent calls for up to 18% Sb, and those 3 particles match that well. It was part of an experiment Vordahl was doing concerning the creation of a metal rolling bar. He got the patent for it but Rem-Cru never did anything with it, so it never reached the commercial market, so it wasn’t anything someone would have come upon in the wild. The only other place that has a TiSb patent is an electronics company called Sprague Electronics. I’m not sure what their use for it was, but it also never entered the commercial market.

[Coopericane 44]

I think I can buy Cooper being in his mid-fifties. That was the original estimation in the crew notes. 57 might be pushing it but I think Vordahl looks young for his age.

That's only one of the obstacles as a suspect he faces in my eyes, though... but I am looking forward to a more complete presentation of the case for him to the public in whatever form it takes (maybe a Vortex episode?).

[Eight Raleighs 12]

Vince Petersen has sure faded from the discussion quickly

Is there any reason, in your (or anyone else's) opinion to favor Petersen over Vordahl? Does Petersen check any "boxes" that Vordahl may not?

[olemisscub 466]

6 minutes ago, Eight Raleighs said:

Vince Petersen has sure faded from the discussion quickly

Is there any reason, in your (or anyone else's) opinion to favor Petersen over Vordahl? Does Petersen check any "boxes" that Vordahl may not?

He was 5 or so years younger. That’s pretty much it. 

I’m also unclear why Petersen would have anything to do with Vordahl’s patent. Vordahl lived in Beaver, PA and worked at their Midland Lab. Petersen was 30 miles away and worked at their Robinson Lab. 

The way it has been explained to me by a metallurgist is that usually just the patent holder themselves and maybe one or two others would come into contact with a raw alloy that was never commercialized and that there was never any production on.

A guy like Vordahl would have mixed a slew of chemicals and elements together and made a cocktail to create the alloy. Then he would cook this concoction into a small  ingot that he would use for testing.

 

[olemisscub 466]

23 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

I think I can buy Cooper being in his mid-fifties. That was the original estimation in the crew notes. 57 might be pushing it but I think Vordahl looks young for his age.

That's only one of the obstacles as a suspect he faces in my eyes, though... but I am looking forward to a more complete presentation of the case for him to the public in whatever form it takes (maybe a Vortex episode?).

Yes, I believe Darren has indicated that he’d like to do a Vordahl episode with us. 

[olemisscub 466]

On 11/20/2022 at 6:29 PM, ParrotheadVol said:

We all see what we see. Personally, I think Vordahl is close to both sketch A & B. 

Unlike guys like Christiansen, who some think look like A (I don't see it), but nothing like B. Or Gossett, who looks a lot like B, but nothing like A.

Hell, take away the peak, I think he's close to the Unsolved Mysteries sketch that Schaffner helped with.

It's a good observation. He also works favorably with the photo that both Bill and Flo said looked the most like him out of hundreds they had seen. Should be noted that the guy in that photo definitely looks older than we usually think of Cooper. 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by olemisscub

[georger 197]

4 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Yes, I believe Darren has indicated that he’d like to do a Vordahl episode with us. 

Darren said he wanted to interview Schreuder. STILL WAITING!  

Posts tonight are interesting and thoughtful.  Appreciate that. Good luck!!

It appears there are some good people working so .... Happy Thanksgiving to all.

..................

Edited November 22, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

33 minutes ago, georger said:

Darren said he wanted to interview Schreuder. STILL WAITING!  

Posts tonight are interesting and thoughtful.  Appreciate that. Good luck!!

It appears there are some good people working so .... Happy Thanksgiving to all.

..................

Check your Private Messages please

[georger 197]

10 hours ago, olemisscub said:

He was 5 or so years younger. That’s pretty much it. 

I’m also unclear why Petersen would have anything to do with Vordahl’s patent. Vordahl lived in Beaver, PA and worked at their Midland Lab. Petersen was 30 miles away and worked at their Robinson Lab. 

The way it has been explained to me by a metallurgist is that usually just the patent holder themselves and maybe one or two others would come into contact with a raw alloy that was never commercialized and that there was never any production on.

A guy like Vordahl would have mixed a slew of chemicals and elements together and made a cocktail to create the alloy. Then he would cook this concoction into a small  ingot that he would use for testing.

 

Tom found the rare elements in what area of the tie?  Lab coats expose only the upper area of a tie.  

Why so few rare elements, compared to the total?  Is it a one time only exposure to the rare elements? Shouldnt there be more of these rare elements if this was a daily exposure over time ?    

Edited November 22, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

16 hours ago, olemisscub said:

There are other verified titanium alloys found on the tie that he was able to visually confirm, so it stands to reason that given all the other chemicals on the tie (all used in metallurgy) that the titanium-antimony is what it appears to be. The issue is that the spectrum doesn’t really have an image attached to it. It just spits out what the particle is comprised of. So obviously we want to confirm that it actually is a non-commercial grade titanium-antimony particle through visual means. Tom’s microscope is currently missing a part that he is attempting to get fixed. So whenever that is done he will be able to search out these particles and visually confirm them as alloys (or not).
 

If it is confirmed to be a TiSb alloy there are only two places in the United States patent record between 1964-1971 that are confirmed to have been fooling around with TiSb alloys where the Sb went that high. Vordahl’s patent calls for up to 18% Sb, and those 3 particles match that well. It was part of an experiment Vordahl was doing concerning the creation of a metal rolling bar. He got the patent for it but Rem-Cru never did anything with it, so it never reached the commercial market, so it wasn’t anything someone would have come upon in the wild. The only other place that has a TiSb patent is an electronics company called Sprague Electronics. I’m not sure what their use for it was, but it also never entered the commercial market.

You guys have lost your objectivity,, those particles have nothing to do with the patent.. they don't even match each other. Those particles are not exclusive to any patent. There are 100's of thousands particles on the tie you can randomly match anything.. and these still don't actually match the patent. Titanium with some % Antimony is not exclusive.. 

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/3266951.pdf

 

His hair is parted on the wrong side in the pic closest to the hijacking date.

He has small and beady eyes.. his ears are smallish and stick out.

He does not have the dark Latin features and appearance..

Cooper did not have a bubba gump lower lip, Cooper's lower lip "sort of" protruded. Lips were thin, lower was thicker and "sort of" protruded aka slightly..

Cooper was not a successful high profile, tennis playing PHD with up to 80 Titanium patents who decided to hijack a plane in his own backyard.. unmasked.

 

You have found a random guy who resembles the sketch, that is it. You have jumped the gun like everybody does when they get emotionally invested in a suspect. Naive people will react positively and that will feed into your confirmation bias..  step back, challenge your own beliefs and proceed carefully.

There is nothing that indicates this guy is Cooper.

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

An interesting data point,,

Most often an alias is not entirely random but from some past reference, easier to remember.. Cooper was the right age to be in WW2 contrary to what Dr Edwards keeps saying,, So, I searched the AAD WW2 enlisted names... 

I am not suggesting that Cooper necessarily used the name from somebody he knew in WW2 but it is entirely possible he crossed paths with the name somewhere.

People have claimed "Dan Cooper" is a common name.. but is it.. 

What is interesting is using the WW2 name search as a proxy,

There are 7 "Dan Cooper" names in the WW2 AAD enlistment search.. very rare.

There are 33 "Daniel Cooper" names in the WW2 AAD enlistment search.. still rare.

There were 16 million men enlisted in WW2.. the AAD may not be 100% complete but it is an interesting data point..

"Dan Cooper" is very rare "Daniel Cooper" more common but still rare.

The US pop in 1971 was 208 million,, say half male = 104 million.

If we use the AAD as a rough proxy, in 1971 there were about 45 Dan Cooper's and 214 Daniel Cooper's in the US,, 

Could Cooper have got the alias from one of them...

 

[Eight Raleighs 12]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

An interesting data point,,

Most often an alias is not entirely random but from some past reference, easier to remember.. Cooper was the right age to be in WW2 contrary to what Dr Edwards keeps saying,, So, I searched the AAD WW2 enlisted names... 

I am not suggesting that Cooper necessarily used the name from somebody he knew in WW2 but it is entirely possible he crossed paths with the name somewhere.

People have claimed "Dan Cooper" is a common name.. but is it.. 

What is interesting is using the WW2 name search as a proxy,

There are 7 "Dan Cooper" names in the WW2 AAD enlistment search.. very rare.

There are 33 "Daniel Cooper" names in the WW2 AAD enlistment search.. still rare.

There were 16 million men enlisted in WW2.. the AAD may not be 100% complete but it is an interesting data point..

"Dan Cooper" is very rare "Daniel Cooper" more common but still rare.

The US pop in 1971 was 208 million,, say half male = 104 million.

If we use the AAD as a rough proxy, in 1971 there were about 45 Dan Cooper's and 214 Daniel Cooper's in the US,, 

Could Cooper have got the alias from one of them...

 

This is part of the William Smith theory, correct? Didn't he go to high school with a Dan Cooper?

[georger 197]

19 minutes ago, Eight Raleighs said:

This is part of the William Smith theory, correct? Didn't he go to high school with a Dan Cooper?

Lots of Coopers in Virginia -   a few Daniels. Family goes back to he Revolutionary War. Arrived via land Grant from King George then rebelled; settled 26 original families in the Shenandoah Valley. See Cooper cemetery near Star Tannery VA. Famous family name synonymous with rebellion and liberation in American Revolutionary War. re- the fighting Quakers.   (* Cartmells History of the Shenandoah Valley)

Edited November 22, 2022 by georger

[CooperNWO305 146]

Are we still on the commercially pure Titanium? Or are we tracking some of it commercially pure, and some is alloy? Or are we all on the alloys?

[olemisscub 466]

The plant manager at TIMET who fired all these people in August 71 was named Don Cooper, fwiw.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Can they still do DNA on the chords... probably touched by others but still might get something.. Cooper must have held them when he cut them.. if he cut them one at a time he likely held the chord in a loop in one hand then cut the loop with the knife..