DB Cooper

[CooperNWO305 146]

Did Cooper spend the money is always a topic of discussion.  I was thinking this morning as to what benefit it would be if the FBI found a $20 in circulation. We know from the Tena Bar money find that there was some value for discussion in finding the money. But what if a bill was found in circulation?  That led me to think about how far money travels from where it is spent. I came across this website https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where's_George%3F, which for some reason I can't access from my current location.  It is more curiosity, but I was wondering if a $20 was issues by the San Francisco Federal Reserve, would it be put into circulation in San Francisco, or put into circulation in many spots?  And, if someone spent a $20 in Portland, how long would it take to get to New York City?  What would the FBI have been able to deduce if they found a $20 in circulation in 1971 versus 1981, etc?  If someone spent a bunch of San Francisco $20s in say Texas, would that have raised more of a flag than say spending those in San Francisco?  

[FLYJACK 654]

30 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Did Cooper spend the money is always a topic of discussion.  I was thinking this morning as to what benefit it would be if the FBI found a $20 in circulation. We know from the Tena Bar money find that there was some value for discussion in finding the money. But what if a bill was found in circulation?  That led me to think about how far money travels from where it is spent. I came across this website https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where's_George%3F, which for some reason I can't access from my current location.  It is more curiosity, but I was wondering if a $20 was issues by the San Francisco Federal Reserve, would it be put into circulation in San Francisco, or put into circulation in many spots?  And, if someone spent a $20 in Portland, how long would it take to get to New York City?  What would the FBI have been able to deduce if they found a $20 in circulation in 1971 versus 1981, etc?  If someone spent a bunch of San Francisco $20s in say Texas, would that have raised more of a flag than say spending those in San Francisco?  

https://www.wheresgeorge.com

[CooperNWO305 146]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

https://www.wheresgeorge.com

I'll have to look at it when I get to another computer.  The site may be blocking my location.  I found some other posts about this site and it looks like there is some detail on bills and how long they stayed in one area.  I suspect that in 1972 or so if Cooper spent a bunch of his $20s in one spot, that a lot of those $20s would have circulated locally for a bit, maybe weeks, maybe months, etc.  Therefore if the FBI had gone to major cities and collected up San Francisco Federal Reserve bills of 1963A and 1969 series, that they would have found a $20, and if not, been able to say with a good amount of probability that Cooper did not spend the $.  Obviously this is all in hindsight.

[JAGdb 69]

Dr. Edwards, 

Apparently, former SA Carr also believed that the hijacker was a cargo kicker.  Wonder if he was familiar with the 302 you reference in your book?

[georger 197]

11/24/71 Hancock Interview:

Alice Hancock a stewardess aboard Northwest Airlines Flight #305 provided the following information:

On November 24, 1971, Hancock stated that the individual who hijacked Northwest Airlines Flight #305, a Boeing 727, boarded the aircraft at Portland OR, and at the time he boarded he was carrying a briefcase which measured about 12 by 18 inches, and was dark brown or black in color. She stated that the hijacker handed another stewardess (Florence Schaffner)  a ransom note demanding $200,000 dollars in cash. Hancock believes that the note was handed to Schaffner very shortly before takeoff from Portland. Hancock advised that the hijacker’s demands were communicated to the Captain of the aircraft via the aircraft’s intercom by another stewardess named Mucklow. 

Hancock stated that the note the hijacker handed to Schaffner stated the hijacker had a bomb, in a briefcase he was carrying, and that he wanted $200,000 dollars and absolutely no trickery or interference or he would explode the bomb he said he was carrying. Hancock also advised the hijacker requested four parachutes. After the hijacker stated these demands, the stewardess named Schaffner went to the cockpit of the aircraft (with the note the hijacker had written and another list of his demands she had written as the hijacker dictated his demands to her), to advise the Captain of the plane of the situation. (In the meantime another stewardess named Mucklow took a seat beside the hijacker). Stewardess Schaffner remained in the cockpit until just before landing in Seattle. Meanwhile the hijacker remained in his seat  and had another stewardess named Mucklow sit by him.      

Hancock stated the hijacker assigned the stewardess named Mucklow to get off the plane in Seattle to get the money he demanded, and then after that she was to go off the airplane again and get four parachutes that he demanded. In addition to the parachutes and the money the hijacker also requested four crew meals. Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft.

Hancock stated that the subject made his demands known in this order:

1)      He wanted the money brought on board first.

2)      We wanted (passengers) off the aircraft after the money was on board.

3)      We wanted parachutes and four crew meals.

4)      He wanted the plane completely refueled.

5)      We wanted maps.

She could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested.

During the flight, Hancock advises the hijacker wanted continual re-assurance that nothing was going to go wrong.  She stated that the hijacker was good natured during the flight.

After the plane landed (at Seattle) and the passengers were off-loaded, Mucklow was on the telephone updating the hijacker’s demands to the Captain of the aircraft.

 The hijacker then informed Mucklow to tell the other stewardesses and crew to remain on board. At this point Hancock states that the pilots of the aircraft wanted the stewardesses off the plane. (They tried to arrange this with the hijacker through Mucklow). Once the stewardesses were off the aircraft, Hancock states that the pilots had planned to get off the aircraft by jumping out through (a door in) the cockpit. (The hijacker however would not let Mucklow come forward).  None of this happened because the hijacker could see them and they feared that he would set off  the bomb that he had in his briefcase.

Then Schaffner went to the back of the plane and asked the hijacker directly if the stewardesses could go and he said: Whatever you girls would like”. Then Hancock and Schaffner left the plane with Mucklow still in the back with the hijacker.

Hancock describes the subject as a male Caucasian, olive complexion, age 38-45, 6’1”, 170-175 lbs, slim build, black hair, wavy (marcelled) and short on the back (Continental look?), He wore no hat and wore sunglasses with plastic frames which looked like prescription glasses. He wore a black trench coat, white shirt and tie, and dark slacks. He wore no gloves and was soft-spoken and had no accent. He had no visible scars or marks.  

Hancock states that he had his hand inside the brief case at all times when he and Mucklow were seated together in row 18.

During her final minutes on board and after the parachutes had been brought aboard), Hancock noticed that one of the parachutes had been unpacked and she asked the hijacker if he had taken the parachute apart and he replied “yes”.   Hancock says the hijacker began unpacking one chute and cutting cords almost as soon as the chutes were brought on board.

[DFS346 7]

58 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Dr. Edwards, Apparently, former SA Carr also believed that the hijacker was a cargo kicker.  Wonder if he was familiar with the 302 you reference in your book?

Recently, Mr Carr kindly gave me an hour or so of his time on the telephone. We touched on the USAF loadmaster to whom I referred in my chapter "The Usual Suspects" (and for whom, to my knowledge, there is no evidence of a link to Flight 305). I did pose this question: "Would the FBI, if it wished, have the authority to obtain the Korean War service records of all USAF personnel in specified squadrons and/or in specified occupational codes?"
His reply (as per my notes): Yes, it could. The FBI had a number of suspects with USAF backgrounds and obtained their service records from the NPRC; some of those records are still classified. Now that the case is inactive, the FBI might not be willing to request such records. 

I mentioned that I had a database of all the USAF squadrons that operated the C-124 (which was the only Korean War-era airplane to use the term "loadmaster" as a crew function; and that  I could list the C-124 squadrons that were ever stationed at McChord or Larson AFB. Mr Carr said that he would like to have a copy of that list; and that he could pass it to an active agent. I sent it to him.

Edited September 1, 2022 by DFS346

[olemisscub 466]

57 minutes ago, DFS346 said:

Recently, Mr Carr kindly gave me an hour or so of his time on the telephone. We touched on the USAF loadmaster to whom I referred in my chapter "The Usual Suspects" (and for whom, to my knowledge, there is no evidence of a link to Flight 305). 

I spent some time recently and retraced your steps and found the guy in the yearbook. Those ears wouldn’t have escaped notice by the Stews if he had been on 305, haha :-) 

[JAGdb 69]

1 hour ago, DFS346 said:

Recently, Mr Carr kindly gave me an hour or so of his time on the telephone. We touched on the USAF loadmaster to whom I referred in my chapter "The Usual Suspects" (and for whom, to my knowledge, there is no evidence of a link to Flight 305). I did pose this question: "Would the FBI, if it wished, have the authority to obtain the Korean War service records of all USAF personnel in specified squadrons and/or in specified occupational codes?"
His reply (as per my notes): Yes, it could. The FBI had a number of suspects with USAF backgrounds and obtained their service records from the NPRC; some of those records are still classified. Now that the case is inactive, the FBI might not be willing to request such records. 

I mentioned that I had a database of all the USAF squadrons that operated the C-124 (which was the only Korean War-era airplane to use the term "loadmaster" as a crew function; and that  I could list the C-124 squadrons that were ever stationed at McChord or Larson AFB. Mr Carr said that he would like to have a copy of that list; and that he could pass it to an active agent. I sent it to him.

Thanks for sharing Dr. Edwards !

[georger 197]

5 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Thanks for sharing Dr. Edwards !

same..   DR. Edwards has done a stunning piece of work that has real depth. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by georger

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, DFS346 said:

Recently, Mr Carr kindly gave me an hour or so of his time on the telephone. We touched on the USAF loadmaster to whom I referred in my chapter "The Usual Suspects" (and for whom, to my knowledge, there is no evidence of a link to Flight 305). I did pose this question: "Would the FBI, if it wished, have the authority to obtain the Korean War service records of all USAF personnel in specified squadrons and/or in specified occupational codes?"
His reply (as per my notes): Yes, it could. The FBI had a number of suspects with USAF backgrounds and obtained their service records from the NPRC; some of those records are still classified. Now that the case is inactive, the FBI might not be willing to request such records. 

I mentioned that I had a database of all the USAF squadrons that operated the C-124 (which was the only Korean War-era airplane to use the term "loadmaster" as a crew function; and that  I could list the C-124 squadrons that were ever stationed at McChord or Larson AFB. Mr Carr said that he would like to have a copy of that list; and that he could pass it to an active agent. I sent it to him.

If Cooper was 48-50 in 1971 he would be 32 to be a kicker in Korea... a bit old to be a kicker during Korea ?  Those jobs were reserved for younger guys. Ive never grasped Carr's association. What does being a kicker at age 29-32 during Korea in 1953 have to do with being a hijacker in 1971 at age 48-50?  Some overlap in skills?  Knowledge base?  I fail to see any connection or overlap and the age differential does not fit.

Edited September 1, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

Just now, georger said:

If Cooper was 48-50 in 1971 he would be 32 to be a kicker in Korea... a bit old to be a kicker during Korea ?  Ive never grasped Carr's association. What does being a kicker during Korea in 1953 have to do with being a hijacker in 1971 at age 48-50?  Some overlap in skills?  Knowledge base?  I fail to see any connection or overlap and the age differential does not fit.

Dr Edwards also keeps insisting Cooper was not the right the age for WW2..

that would be incorrect.

[georger 197]

8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Dr Edwards also keeps insisting Cooper was not the right the age for WW2..

that would be incorrect.

Carr is saying Cooper was some low level worker type (stains on his teeth, maybe a low class tobacco chewer). Carr seems to trying to fit Cooper into Carr's profile of Cooper's class. I think that is a reach and probably totally wrong. Im not convinced Carr has the right personal profile for Cooper. Just my opinion ....  H said Cooper was a low class foul mouthed blah blah blah which was wrong. Carr is saying Cooper is a low class ... semi intelligent knuckle draggier moron! (With a bad muffler and an old Harley?)   Kind of funny inmho. Pass me one of them ceegars paleez.

Edited September 1, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

10 minutes ago, georger said:

Carr is saying Cooper was some low level worker type (stains on his teeth, maybe a low class tobacco chewer). Carr seems to trying to fit Cooper into Carr's profile of Cooper's class. I think that is a reach and probably totally wrong. Im not convinced Carr has the right personal profile for Cooper. Just my opinion ....  

Agreed.

The FBI’s own suspect profiles within the 302’s speak to quite the opposite. They say he was educated and not working class. They speculated he was probably used to working as an executive who had a secretary take notes and run errands for him in the past (never liked that speculation since that seems lazy). 

You get the sense reading the suspect profile that when Cooper served in the military he was probably a junior officer, not a grunt.  

Edited September 1, 2022 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

1 minute ago, georger said:

Carr is saying Cooper was some low level worker type (stains on his teeth, maybe a low class tobacco chewer). Carr seems to trying to fit Cooper into Carr's profile of Cooper's class. I think that is a reach and probably totally wrong. Im not convinced Carr has the right personal profile for Cooper. Just my opinion ....  

Carr got a lot wrong and his case knowledge is circa 2012.. He thought the back chutes came from Cossey's house and Cossey sent Cooper a message with the instruction sheet as it was custom and hard to open,, complete nonsense.

IMO, Carr's opinions are overrated..

The "kicker" is the ideal hypothetical with no evidence..

Cooper most likely had military aviation experience from WW2 to Vietnam but he didn't have to be a kicker..

 

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, georger said:

If Cooper was 48-50 in 1971 he would be 32 to be a kicker in Korea... a bit old to be a kicker during Korea ?  Those jobs were reserved for younger guys. Ive never grasped Carr's association. What does being a kicker at age 29-32 during Korea in 1953 have to do with being a hijacker in 1971 at age 48-50?  Some overlap in skills?  Knowledge base?  I fail to see any connection or overlap and the age differential does not fit.

The C-124 "loadmasters" would in all probability be career USAF personnel in the grades of E-5 or E-6.  In addition to kicking things out of the aircraft, they would be responsible for loading the aircraft and making certain that the cargo was properly secured, and that the aircraft center-of-gravity was in the correct range.

While 32 was not too old to be a kicker in the Korean War (the Korean Armistice was signed in late July 1953), Cooper was apparently a few years younger than that but would still fit in with the correct age range.

[JAGdb 69]

4 hours ago, georger said:

Carr is saying Cooper was some low level worker type (stains on his teeth, maybe a low class tobacco chewer). Carr seems to trying to fit Cooper into Carr's profile of Cooper's class. I think that is a reach and probably totally wrong. Im not convinced Carr has the right personal profile for Cooper. Just my opinion ....  H said Cooper was a low class foul mouthed blah blah blah which was wrong. Carr is saying Cooper is a low class ... semi intelligent knuckle draggier moron! (With a bad muffler and an old Harley?)   Kind of funny inmho. Pass me one of them ceegars paleez.

Yeah, WRT the low class foul mouthed stuff and the idea that he was more of a clown and that he knew just enough to get himself killed as well as the overly confident assertions that he was dead...I always thought that it was a calculated strategy to appeal to the hijackers ego and get him to make a mistake that would lead to his capture.......or they knew something that we didn't regarding his behavior.

BTW, no disrespect to anyone who is in the camp of him dying that night, he certainly may have. 

Now...I like my ceegars with a glass of bourbon...paleez.

[FLYJACK 654]

Oh really,,,

 

 

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, JAGdb said:

Yeah, WRT the low class foul mouthed stuff and the idea that he was more of a clown and that he knew just enough to get himself killed as well as the overly confident assertions that he was dead...I always thought that it was a calculated strategy to appeal to the hijackers ego and get him to make a mistake that would lead to his capture.......or they knew something that we didn't regarding his behavior.

BTW, no disrespect to anyone who is in the camp of him dying that night, he certainly may have. 

Now...I like my ceegars with a glass of bourbon...paleez.

Beautiful! ................................................  

[georger 197]

6 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Agreed.

The FBI’s own suspect profiles within the 302’s speak to quite the opposite. They say he was educated and not working class. They speculated he was probably used to working as an executive who had a secretary take notes and run errands for him in the past (never liked that speculation since that seems lazy). 

You get the sense reading the suspect profile that when Cooper served in the military he was probably a junior officer, not a grunt.  

tend to agree with this

It just hit me, why were rare particles not found on the money?  Maybe too few.  Cooper had the tie on, was physically active with tie on over an open bag of money, handled the money, ........ hmmm. I have to stop chasing this case!     

Carr says Cooper was an amateur compared to McCoy. McCoy brought his own gear to guarantee a good chute. hmmmmmmmmmmmm.  valid comparison ?

Edited September 2, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, georger said:

 

Carr says Cooper was an amateur compared to McCoy. McCoy brought his own gear to guarantee a good chute. hmmmmmmmmmmmm.  valid comparison ?

I generally don't mind Larry and appreciate him as a guy, but I take a lot of issue with him about the parachute stuff. In multiple interviews he continued to promulgate the false narrative about Cooper "jumping" with a non-functional reserve, which is something he DID NOT do because he couldn't have. Cooper either chucked the thing wholesale out the back of the aircraft or opened it, used it as a spare money bag, and pitched the canopy out the back of the aircraft (and somehow this was never found). 

Regardless, Larry either didn't know about the lack of d-rings or was being willfully misleading to try and sell his "100% no pull" belief. I tend to believe (and hope) it's the former. 

[JAGdb 69]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Oh really,,,

 

 

Anytime somebody teases like this, and then says something like "if you want to know the rest, sign up for my whatever or purchase my whatever", you immediately loose credibility. From the little I have searched up on Chael Sonnen, this isn't something new.  He has been saying this for at least 4 or 5 years right?  Yet, somehow still never tells who it is.  So he is basically saying it is a family friend or more specifically his dad's friend.  So either:

1) He really knows who Cooper is

2) He really thinks he knows who Cooper is, but is wrong

3) For some reason, not entirely clear, using the case to get something out of it...like more subscribers or whatever.  Not sure if you have to pay for his "subscription" or not.

Which is it ?

Parrot posted the following video about a year ago. In the video, he is embarrassingly loose/inaccurate on some of the most basic details of the case, things like:

- "bomb in his bag" instead of brief case. This mistake is almost the equivalent to saying that Santa Claus uses a hot air balloon or even skis to deliver his presents --how do you get this wrong?

- and even more egregious "while they are up, he parachutes, they don't know he has a parachute"  

So right there, he looses me...how can we believe anything he says after that ?  Not to mention the "if you want to know more, sign up for my subscription" shtick.

He does seem to believe what he is saying...

[JAGdb 69]

6 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I generally don't mind Larry and appreciate him as a guy, but I take a lot of issue with him about the parachute stuff. In multiple interviews he continued to promulgate the false narrative about Cooper "jumping" with a non-functional reserve, which is something he DID NOT do because he couldn't have. Cooper either chucked the thing wholesale out the back of the aircraft or opened it, used it as a spare money bag, and pitched the canopy out the back of the aircraft (and somehow this was never found). 

Regardless, Larry either didn't know about the lack of d-rings or was being willfully misleading to try and sell his "100% no pull" belief. I tend to believe (and hope) it's the former. 

I agree, credit to Carr for bringing the case to the public so to speak 10+ years ago.  Fly puts it well when he says that his case knowledge appears to be stale.  To a certain extent, that's ok or understandable as he hasn't been working the case for years, but then also be open to new information and changing your take on things.  At the end of the day, he is retired, and doesn't owe anything.  Having said that, it is clear he still has an interest in the case, otherwise why would he be be engaging?

[olemisscub 466]

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Oh really,,,

 

 

Jo Weber: "and then I remember Duane took me to this Indian Reservation where he said he grew up. It maybe started with a Y. I said 'Duane, you never told me you were Native American!' He said he had lived there until about 1972.”

[FLYJACK 654]

8 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I generally don't mind Larry and appreciate him as a guy, but I take a lot of issue with him about the parachute stuff. In multiple interviews he continued to promulgate the false narrative about Cooper "jumping" with a non-functional reserve, which is something he DID NOT do because he couldn't have. Cooper either chucked the thing wholesale out the back of the aircraft or opened it, used it as a spare money bag, and pitched the canopy out the back of the aircraft (and somehow this was never found). 

Regardless, Larry either didn't know about the lack of d-rings or was being willfully misleading to try and sell his "100% no pull" belief. I tend to believe (and hope) it's the former. 

Yes, I don't really want to bash Larry because he did move the case along for us when he went on DZ years ago but I sense some arrogance and hypocrisy..

He defends the FBI and smears citizen sleuths who he had asked for help.. 

He criticized speculation then grossly speculates... and gets things wrong.

His case knowledge is not up to date and he ignores significant advances by citizen sleuths..

IMO, the case knowledge of the top tier Cooper sleuths has moved beyond Larry, he doesn't realize it and in his arrogance he belittles us..

[FLYJACK 654]

Cooper letters were compared to the Zodiac case.. negative results