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DB Cooper

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(edited)
3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

and it is gone... 

Been reading Edwards blog tonight. I dont read anything where Edwards supports a  'Columbia landing' or even a southern landing, wherever that is? A Columbia landing is what Tosaw preached. I dont know why Chaucer is pushing for this or what evidence he is drawing on ?  I mean Chaucer no disrespect but I wonder what his reasoning or his evidence is, exactly ... or if Edwards is supporting this also ?  Tosaw said Cooper had to have landed in the Columbia for the money to have been at Tena Bar, at all! I laugh when I think about it now . . . typical Tosaw.   

To my knowledge, there has never been a suspect who lived in the Tena Bar area, or at Caterpillar Island ? Someone who was physically in that area and knew it ? Someone in the Dell Tena family ...  the family of skiers and athletes? 

Edited by georger

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18 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Not necessarily, everyone is focussed on the French angle but the Dan Cooper comic was also published in Mexico, in Spanish for Latin America..  Cooper was described as swarthy and Latin American.. plus his demand was to fly to Mexico... 

but, I still think the name is a random coincidence..  we will never be able to find any connection beyond speculation.

It is still interesting..

Here is an article on the publication, it was out of NY,

https://thepulp.net/pulp-articles/i-flew-with-bill-barnes/

I am still trying to figure out if Dan Cooper was a character in only one edition or an ongoing character.. it looks like only that one issue.

Nonsense fly what if we found a copy of this issue and or other issues of AIR TRAILS in a POI’s belongings then what? You just linked the material to a matchbook DBC had on 305. If this was a Latin American/Mexican AIR TRAILS you’d be all over it. I really think you pigeon holed yourself with this whole Spanish/Latino angle. DBC simply wasn’t of that heritage. Latino and NA were thrown out there by witnesses to help describe certain features of the UNSUB. I can quote Bill too “He looked just like a regular WHITE guy.” 

 

Nicky
 

 

Edited by Nicholas Broughton

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2 hours ago, georger said:

Been reading Edwards blog tonight. I dont read anything where Edwards supports a  'Columbia landing' or even a southern landing, wherever that is? A Columbia landing is what Tosaw preached. I dont know why Chaucer is pushing for this or what evidence he is drawing on ?  I mean Chaucer no disrespect but I wonder what his reasoning or his evidence is, exactly ... or if Edwards is supporting this also ?  Tosaw said Cooper had to have landed in the Columbia for the money to have been at Tena Bar, at all! I laugh when I think about it now . . . typical Tosaw.   

To my knowledge, there has never been a suspect who lived in the Tena Bar area, or at Caterpillar Island ? Someone who was physically in that area and knew it ? Someone in the Dell Tena family ...  the family of skiers and athletes? 

Dr. Edwards covers the southern landing and a potential Columbia River landing in his book. It's based on notes that were taken by NWO Flight Operations and specifically the position reports that Flight 305 made on the ARINC TTY.  Basically, he identifies 6 people taking notes based on the communications between 305 and NWO.  He labels them authors A,B,C,D,E and F.  The only name he has for one of the note takers is Bob Lowenthal. Author "F" makes a note that 305 reported to be 23 miles south of the PDX VOR at 8:18pm (now known as the Battlle Ground VOR). Based on this position report and the roughly 3 miles per minute speed of the plane, he puts 305 just south of Battle Ground and North of Vancouver at the ~8:11pm jump time INSTEAD of over Ariel as the FBI/Air Force calculations suggested.  So he generally supports the Victor 23  flight path, but has the plane further south along flight path from a time line perspective and he also reexamines the wind speeds which deviates somewhat wrt to the drift the hijacker after exiting the plane. 

I just got done reading his book.  I really enjoyed it, it is well written and I like his writing style. He really dives into the data and introduces some new data and then draws some new and interesting conclusions and proposed theories.  There are some things that I am not fully convinced of:

- He basically dismisses the oscillations and pressure bump as evidence of the hijacker leaving the plane.  He posits that this is the hijacker simply walking down the stairs and throwing out the brief case and possible the chest chute--not entirely unreasonable.  However, in my mind, the problem with this, is that he never mentions why later on when he proposes the hijacker jumps that there are not similar oscillations and bump experienced by the flight crew.

- He states that the air stairs were locked during the flight, not free floating.

- He states that the auto pilot was on.  

- He states that the air stairs were not locked during the sled test.  He also points out that the fact that the sled test flight was at 7000 feet instead of 10,000 feet as 305 was during the hijacking calls into question the results of the test.

- As he proposes that there was a significant possibility that the hijacker had a water landing, he didn't seem to explain or circle back to the diatoms issue i.e. lack of November diatoms present on the Tena Bar money.

So that's my quick high level summary, hopefully I didn't misrepresent Dr. Edwards.  Again, I think it is a really good read and the possibility that 305 was further along the flight path than the original time line proposed is one of the major assertions.

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6 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Nonsense fly what if we found a copy of this issue and or other issues of AIR TRAILS in a POI’s belongings then what? You just linked the material to a matchbook DBC had on 305. If this was a Latin American/Mexican AIR TRAILS you’d be all over it. I really think you pigeon holed yourself with this whole Spanish/Latino angle. DBC simply wasn’t of that heritage. Latino and NA were thrown out there by witnesses to help describe certain features of the UNSUB. I can quote Bill too “He looked just like a regular WHITE guy.” 

 

Nicky
 

 

But, outside of the name and aviation there is no connection to anyone. Connecting the ICS matches to the school is ridiculous. Those were marketing/advertising material obtained where you buy cigarettes. A correspondence school doesn't send matchbooks to students in the mail. They could have been picked up anywhere.

 

Nope,, total misfire Nicky on all three counts.

First, that 1937 article is still too distant, obscure and a one off... a coincidence.

Second, I have said I think the Dan Cooper comic is likely a coincidence AS WELL even though it was published in Mexico, I have never claimed it was related, just laid out the facts. I said it was a more likely connection than the french Canadian one. So, you misrepresent my motives.

Further, you make a gross error like many others have made..

Latin Americans were of Spanish descent and they were called WHITE or Caucasian at the time.. that includes gov in documents.. Everybody falsely claims that Cooper can't be White/Caucasian and Latin American,, this is 100% false and I can prove it... Gregory even called Cooper Caucasian and Latin American... wait what..

IT IS NOT ONE OR THE OTHER.. GET IT.. and tell all your buddies they are wrong as well..

All of you can remain wrong on this, in fact I prefer it. It is a waste of energy to convince people of things I know to be true.

Lastly, I have Cooper images that nobody else has.. end of story.

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Dr. Edwards covers the southern landing and a potential Columbia River landing in his book. It's based on notes that were taken by NWO Flight Operations and specifically the position reports that Flight 305 made on the ARINC TTY.  Basically, he identifies 6 people taking notes based on the communications between 305 and NWO.  He labels them authors A,B,C,D,E and F.  The only name he has for one of the note takers is Bob Lowenthal. Author "F" makes a note that 305 reported to be 23 miles south of the PDX VOR at 8:18pm (now known as the Battlle Ground VOR). Based on this position report and the roughly 3 miles per minute speed of the plane, he puts 305 just south of Battle Ground and North of Vancouver at the ~8:11pm jump time INSTEAD of over Ariel as the FBI/Air Force calculations suggested.  So he generally supports the Victor 23  flight path, but has the plane further south along flight path from a time line perspective and he also reexamines the wind speeds which deviates somewhat wrt to the drift the hijacker after exiting the plane. 

I just got done reading his book.  I really enjoyed it, it is well written and I like his writing style. He really dives into the data and introduces some new data and then draws some new and interesting conclusions and proposed theories.  There are some things that I am not fully convinced of:

- He basically dismisses the oscillations and pressure bump as evidence of the hijacker leaving the plane.  He posits that this is the hijacker simply walking down the stairs and throwing out the brief case and possible the chest chute--not entirely unreasonable.  However, in my mind, the problem with this, is that he never mentions why later on when he proposes the hijacker jumps that there are not similar oscillations and bump experienced by the flight crew.

- He states that the air stairs were locked during the flight, not free floating.

- He states that the auto pilot was on.  

- He states that the air stairs were not locked during the sled test.  He also points out that the fact that the sled test flight was at 7000 feet instead of 10,000 feet as 305 was during the hijacking calls into question the results of the test.

- As he proposes that there was a significant possibility that the hijacker had a water landing, he didn't seem to explain or circle back to the diatoms issue i.e. lack of November diatoms present on the Tena Bar money.

So that's my quick high level summary, hopefully I didn't misrepresent Dr. Edwards.  Again, I think it is a really good read and the possibility that 305 was further along the flight path than the original time line proposed is one of the major assertions.

Good summary,, I agree.

Edwards missed the statement that Rataczak had given a range to establish times, from last contact with Cooper to his call to Solderlind "in the suburbs of Portland".. That call was delayed from the jump time, so Cooper jumped well N of Portland. He also confirmed with Gryder that Cooper was gone before Portland. 

Good book overall, just some errors.. or false assumptions.. don't all books have errors.

Cooper jumped between the Lewis R and about Battleground close to V23.

Oscillations were the visual needle movement on the gauge, the bump was both felt and an extreme needle oscillation. The bump was also an oscillation on the gauge.

Airstairs never locked down.

Plane was hand flown.. Rataczak felt Cooper on the stairs.

Cooper was Latin American in features and appearance. AND CAUCASIAN.

The placard DID NOT come from inside 305 and it is a virtual certainty it did not come from the outside of 305 but came from one of the many passing jets in 7 years..

Edited by FLYJACK
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18 hours ago, georger said:

Correct but conditions must be dry and hot, at a minimum. I was surprised TK did not include this option in his tests because it was described in the FBI docs we received. Its an import fact about the Cooper money.

The money was somewhere during the first year where this phenomenon could happen and did happen. That may not be Tena Bar. Im not exactly happy about that - Im only following the evidence that must be accounted for wherever it leads .

So, what is the take away..

We heard bands were brittle and broke and now gooey... I guess they could be both in different places. Band parts on the top near the hotter surface vs on the bottom of the bundle..

but does this suggest when the money arrived on TBAR.. an early Spring like '72 or a  later Spring closer to '79..

Remember, there was fresher debris in the same layer and a can of a brand of Sarsaparilla that was first produced in 1974.. 

 

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Chaucer removed his insane youtube attack on Ratatczak after I posted it here.. Rataczak is probably the most solid and honest guy whose account never wavered.

Chaucer needs to discredit Rataczak for his "theory" to work..

then he attacks me, the messenger from Shutter's site..

I don't think that is an appropriate use of that forum for a moderator..

I knew that forum would suffer with Chaucer as a moderator.. he is unhinged and actually threatened me here on this forum.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Slim King said:

It's almost like they were buried before for a long time ... Then placed on Tena bar. 

I hate to put more work on anyone - I mean that! - but Tom needs to conduct new experiments and find out what is required for bands melting and sticking to bills. Something has to account for this in the first year after the hijacking. 

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Chaucer removed his insane youtube attack on Ratatczak after I posted it here.. Rataczak is probably the most solid and honest guy whose account never wavered.

Chaucer needs to discredit Rataczak for his "theory" to work..

then he attacks me, the messenger from Shutter's site..

I don't think that is an appropriate use of that forum for a moderator..

I knew that forum would suffer with Chaucer as a moderator.. he is unhinged and actually threatened me here on this forum.

 

 

Chaucer is just passionate about his work ....... as you are!  As we all are!! ;)

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2 minutes ago, georger said:

I hate to put more work on anyone - I mean that! - but Tom needs to conduct new experiments and find out what is required for bands melting and sticking to bills. Something has to account for this in the first year after the hijacking. 

How about sitting in an unfinished attic for a few years?  Here on the east coast, attics can push > ~140 degrees or so depending on whether attic fans are working or ridge vents....then the freezing in the winter.  

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10 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

How about sitting in an unfinished attic for a few years?  Here on the east coast, attics can push > ~140 degrees or so depending on whether attic fans are working or ridge vents....then the freezing in the winter.  

Definite possibility. Doesnt take light but does require warmth/heat  and dry conditions. .........  in a basement next to a furnace ?  I think once Tom reads this he will get to the bottom of this. 

My barber has a big ball of bands in his front window - gooey stages evident from UV! There are flies and insects stuck to the bands. Like amber sap! Those gooey bands may have trapped particles from the environment ... have always wished I could examine them but the Ingrams didnt save any.

Edited by georger

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20 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper handed Flo an envelope, she removed a note...

He demanded and got the note back but what about the envelope...

Tina saw the note fall on the floor..

Flo took the note and envelope to the Cockpit.. as well as the demands she wrote down.

Flo took both notes to the hijacker after he demanded them.

843106504_ScreenShot2022-08-27at5_25_55PM.png.aa18a4759f47f5747c0b281d4817f7f7.png

Found it,,

Flo wrote his demands on the envelope, then Cooper demanded the return of the first note and envelope which had his demands on it..

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Found it,,

Flo wrote his demands on the envelope, then Cooper demanded the return of the first note and envelope which had his demands on it..

This is the first I am hearing of there being an envelope that the note was inside of....is this a new find ?  If it is, certainly you would think that it would be a great target for a finger print or DNA test.  Could you imagine if he actually licked it and sealed it ?  (Highly doubt it)

But, having said that, why has it never been part of the countless descriptions of the story over the years ?  I can only think of two reasons: 

1) They held it back, didn't want the hijacker to know.  But this only makes sense if it had actual investigative value i.e. they lifted finger prints.  (If there was nothing there but Flo's finger print, you would think that it would have entered the evidentiary records the same as other pieces of evidence did.)

2) There really wasn't an envelope and this is just another example of a 302 being investigative notes where some are not as accurate as others as different people hear the accounts and document them either multiple times or 2nd or 3rd hand ?

Hasn't there been some variation in the telling of the hijacker giving the note to Flo?  She put it in her pocket, she dropped it, or something of that nature...mostly minor variations?

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4 hours ago, georger said:

I hate to put more work on anyone - I mean that! - but Tom needs to conduct new experiments and find out what is required for bands melting and sticking to bills. Something has to account for this in the first year after the hijacking. 

Is there any information out there that Tom is working on new tests in the case ?  Is he active on EU's Facebook page?  (I'm not into the Facebook scene so I wouldn't know.)

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6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

We heard bands were brittle and broke and now gooey... I guess they could be both in different places. Band parts on the top near the hotter surface vs on the bottom of the bundle..

Georger didn't address this in his replies, but the way I read that sounds more like the gooey vs brittle thing wasn't different places on the bundle, but more different times in the process. As in a gooey phase that later dries out to a brittle phase. It also sounded like he doesn't think Tena Bar was a dry enough environment for the gooey phase to happen.

Have I got that right G?

Edited by dudeman17

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40 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

This is the first I am hearing of there being an envelope that the note was inside of....is this a new find ?  If it is, certainly you would think that it would be a great target for a finger print or DNA test.  Could you imagine if he actually licked it and sealed it ?  (Highly doubt it)

But, having said that, why has it never been part of the countless descriptions of the story over the years ?  I can only think of two reasons: 

1) They held it back, didn't want the hijacker to know.  But this only makes sense if it had actual investigative value i.e. they lifted finger prints.  (If there was nothing there but Flo's finger print, you would think that it would have entered the evidentiary records the same as other pieces of evidence did.)

2) There really wasn't an envelope and this is just another example of a 302 being investigative notes where some are not as accurate as others as different people hear the accounts and document them either multiple times or 2nd or 3rd hand ?

Hasn't there been some variation in the telling of the hijacker giving the note to Flo?  She put it in her pocket, she dropped it, or something of that nature...mostly minor variations?

The sequence from the files..

Cooper hands Flo an envelope with the note inside,, Miss, I have a bomb...

MISS is printed, the rest is neatly written.. 

The envelope is plain white with no writing or markings.

Flo writes Cooper's demands on the envelope.

Flo takes the first note and envelope to the cockpit.

Cooper asks for them back and Tina calls the cockpit.

The note and the envelope are returned to Cooper. Effectively both notes.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Is there any information out there that Tom is working on new tests in the case ?  Is he active on EU's Facebook page?  (I'm not into the Facebook scene so I wouldn't know.)

Yes, Tom is still on it, his equipment was broken..

I sent him a Penny's clip on tie from the same era and material, Dacron Polyester to test for particles from manufacturing.. some of the particles found on the tie are used in the production, dye process and for retardants.. 

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2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The sequence from the files..

Cooper hands Flo an envelope with the note inside,, Miss, I have a bomb...

MISS is printed, the rest is neatly written.. 

The envelope is plain white with no writing or markings.

Flo writes Cooper's demands on the envelope.

Flo takes the first note and envelope to the cockpit.

Cooper asks for them back and Tina calls the cockpit.

The note and the envelope are returned to Cooper. Effectively both notes.

 

 

my mistake, I missed the part about getting the envelope back in your prior post.  

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31 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Georger didn't address this in his replies, but the way I read that sounds more like the gooey vs brittle thing wasn't different places on the bundle, but more different times in the process. As in a gooey phase that later dries out to a brittle phase. It also sounded like he doesn't think Tena Bar was a dry enough environment for the gooey phase to happen.

Have I got that right G?

My response was addressing the fact that the Ingrams said the rubber bands were brittle and broke apart when touched. If there were some gooey bits also then that means both brittle and gooey parts.. 

Reading up on this,,, a rubber bands natural state is gooey but exposure to oxygen or substances leach out ingredients which are introduced to keep them stretchy and firm.

As they leach out the bands become gooey.. their natural state.

The processes that can do this may vary depending on the specific chemistry of a rubber band... So, this is really tough to nail down.. it will simply be time and/or a specific environment can speed the process..

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4 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Georger didn't address this in his replies, but the way I read that sounds more like the gooey vs brittle thing wasn't different places on the bundle, but more different times in the process. As in a gooey phase that later dries out to a brittle phase. It also sounded like he doesn't think Tena Bar was a dry enough environment for the gooey phase to happen.

Have I got that right G?

Yes, a different time. Gooey before dried out. Once the bands go through a gooey stage that is usually followed by crystallization followed by drying out.  Thats the normal sequence due to the chemistry of the bands.

The gooey stage probably must happen in the first year. The crystallization and drying out completely can take years but, TK found significant cracking and drying out in less than a year. Tom used Alliance bands, the same bands used by the bank.

Humidity and water would swell the paper fibers and interfere with the gooey resin adhering to those fibres, imo. I compare the gooey resin to sap, as in Amber resin, which can surround and trap things in its environment. Of course when the FBI Lab looked at the money they didn't note anything like rubber band residue - they did see sand types and noted that the sand types they saw were consistent with "Columbia River Water".  (They were very specific) Evidently they didnt see any rubber band crystals, which is a disappointment. 

Based on the band evidence I think there is a very good chance the money was somewhere other than Tena Bar in the first year. A dry place that offered heat or UV exposure. A colleague here suggests an eagle's nest, in gest!

TK band test photo below - by day 234 Tom's bands had cracked, began breaking, and were drying out .........  and this is only at day 234! By day 234 the gooey stage opportunity has already passed, under normal conditions. Based on Tom's tests the bands have already gone through a gooey stage somewhere by day 234 !  Gooey resin is already sticking to the fibers of one or more bills .... and year-1 hasnt even finished. I doubt this money is at Tena Bar.

SVRiver_lrg x1.JPG

Edited by georger

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(edited)
52 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Moving forward I think it's safe to say that the money found on Tena Bar was stored somewhere else for several years (A warm place at times) and then placed on Tena Bar  sometime later... Possibly in the spring when the propper bugs were in the water. Can we agree on that?  AND... Do we have proof that rubber bands were even used by the bank. My wife, a banker for about 20 years says they don't do that now days but perhaps then ...It's Strapped with paper straps.

Where does your wife's bank buy their bands? Alliance Rubber? B)  Tell her she is in a perfect position to do some band tests, make a rubber band ball, set it in a south window, and watch!  Use bank bands.  

Edited by georger

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9 hours ago, Slim King said:

My wife says they never check serial numbers on $20 bills. They aren't paid by the federal government. They don't do what is asked of them. Next time you give a bank a twenty just see if they check the number. They DON'T!!!!!! I think she actually can find out what bands they use. I know for a fact that there is a 50% failure rate under even the best conditions within a year here in Florida where it is often VERY hot!!!! She tells me that all money is strapped with paper bands. They rarely use rubber bands and that is only in the till. Once the money is in the vault it is wrapped with paper bands..Straps. If you think the money was placed on Tena Bar then all bets are off and anyone could have done anything to wrap the money. I think Briggs was behind planting the money. Then immediately eliminated.

$20 bills in 1971 would be more like $100's today... not checking $20's today is irrelevant.

If bills got past the first point they would still circulate for many years potentially being discovered..  the fact that none were ever found suggests Cooper lost all the money, never passed it in the US or it was stashed.

The money was in packets of 100's, evidence supports being strapped, those packets were rubber banded into bundles of random sizes.. so, 3, 4, 5 or ? packets to a rubber banded bundle. That is how it went to Cooper. The FBI said the TBAR money was in the same order and packaging as given to Cooper but they also said they were holding back that information in 1980.

Time alone will make a rubber band go gooey.. so how long can a rubber stay gooey?

If a rubber band goes gooey in less than a year but remains gooey for another 8 years that doesn't help us..

How gooey were the bands,, were they just essentially glued to the paper but not pliable.

Hard to sort out with limited info..

 

Two things we can assume..

The money arrived when the rubber bands were good.

The money arrived in a spring '72 to '79...

 

That suggests the money arrived closer to '72 unless the rubber bands were replaced by somebody.. 

I have two competing theories,, one has the money arrive in April '72, the other in spring '78 or '79...

No, the money was't planted, the TBAR spot was below the high water line and was underwater seasonally... if somebody wanted to plant money that would be the worst place, lots of better places to plant or bury money. The money was either intentionally discarded or unintentionally lost to the River.

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