DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

9 hours ago, georger said:

Well it might make a difference. Keep in mind we are now assuming FJ is right - paper straps, without any confirmation of that. Do we just continue on the assumption FJ is right, to keep him happy and tranquil?  And that Ckret is wrong. FJ right. Ckret wrong! Headline in the Oregonian tomorrow!!

Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect. In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy.       

took out one package of the money,     and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her!

No mention of paper straps there. Hmmmmmmmm. How did he get through the paper straps to "one bundle" without Tina seeing it and remembering? But when Tina utters the words 'bank type bands' - FJ uses that to indicate "straps of money and paper straps, and rubber bands "! Tina also refers to the money as "bundles" in another passage. So, straps of money because H said that, paper straps because FJ says that, rubber bands because people saw that, and bundles of money because several people and FJ said that, and Kraft paper ... and a partridge in a pear tree. 

Ive been through this debate before (with Carr and Ingram) and it took a week + to resolve. I wonder what Tom Kaye will say .......... in 2054!  Will Georger dissolve into jello waiting ? 

Extremism is as Extremism does.

You can believe anything you want, if you think "bank type bands" means rubber bands that is up to you, if you reject all the other evidence that is up to you..

However, posting fake evidence is dishonest and misleading for forum readers.

The Campbell interview doc quote you posted was doctored from the original, it has errors and was edited.. somebody typed up a doctored version for some reason.. 

Here is the original Campbell interview from the FBI files... the part you cite does not exist in the original it was added by somebody recently in an unofficial document.

It is not clear if Tina took a single "packet" or a single "bundle" because the terms "small packages" and "package" was used. Elsewhere the FBI used the term package to refer to bundles, groups of packets. But package can describe both.

Edited August 19, 2022 by FLYJACK

[JAGdb 69]

I know there are very few verifiable facts, so to speak, in this case.  For me, I am accepting as a given for now, that there were rubber bands.  The Ingram family have been steadfast that there were rubber bands when they found the money and that they basically crumbled away.  I don't see a reason that they would make that up, the only other possibility is that they saw something that they mistook for rubber bands, but I can't go there.  For folks that have spoken directly to the Ingram family, whether it be TK/EU or anyone else, have they gotten into specifics about how many rubber bands were observed ? Were there rubber bands around each of the 3 packets ?  Georger, you posted the below on dbcooperforum #3195:

'The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling. They took the money home where they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it. They had no idea at this time where the money had come from.'

This sounds like the Ingrams have provided some more details beyond just, "there were rubber bands".

I also think that Tina's "bank type bands" phrase, coupled with some of the other statements that Carr has made after speaking to the bank employee, would seem more likely to imply that there were also paper bands involved.   In my opinion, when someone sees a rubber band, I tend to think that they would use the word "rubber" when describing it to someone. The fact that Tina didn't say "bank type bands...that were rubber" or "bank type rubber bands" has me leaning toward the take that she saw paper bands.  The link that Georger posted had pictures of straps with paper in the middle and rubber bands on both edges...that's interesting.

I think it seems plausible by all of the discussions and parsing of words of the participants and witnesses, that there were probably both rubber bands and paper bands.  

All this said, what is the value in this discussion? I can think of at least two and I am sure that there are more:

1) Does it help us understand how the 3 packets arrived at Tena Bar ?   Three straps, bundled together into one makes it easier to explain how it was found, one on top of the other i.e. human intervention not required to place them like that in a burial scenario.  

2) If it could be said that the money was delivered secured/bound in one way, but it was discovered to bound in a different way, then that implies someone changed it....that would be a big deal.

The above are just my opinions and conjecture.

[FLYJACK 654]

McCoy's ransom money was also in bank straps.. hundreds had plane white straps, no markings, twenties blue and white straps, no markings..

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

All this said, what is the value in this discussion? I can think of at least two and I am sure that there are more:

1) Does it help us understand how the 3 packets arrived at Tena Bar ?   Three straps, bundled together into one makes it easier to explain how it was found, one on top of the other i.e. human intervention not required to place them like that in a burial scenario.  

2) If it could be said that the money was delivered secured/bound in one way, but it was discovered to bound in a different way, then that implies someone changed it....that would be a big deal.

The above are just my opinions and conjecture.

Yes, everyone believed the money arrived as three separate packets meaning it had to be placed/dropped or landed in a container.. the evidence indicates that individual packets were rubber banded together into bundles and the TBAR money was one single bundle of several packets, that opens up the means by which it could have arrived. The paper bank bands don't play a role here.

but, if the individual packets had paper bank bands how does that change the TBAR dynamics. Paper bands deteriorate quickly when wet and would not survive out in the elements until spring '72.. 

This suggests the money was stored out of the elements until it was introduced into the River in a Spring and that the money arrived on TBAR very soon after going into river..

 

 

[JAGdb 69]

From Tom Kay at CS web site:

"The rubber bands around the Cooper bundles were extremely degraded but still in their proper positions when found."

I haven't read the CS website in a while:
https://citizensleuths.com/rubber-band-analysis.html

But the line stating that the rubber bands were still in their proper positions must have come from the Ingram's right ?  And he is using the plural form "rubber bands", so the Ingram's observed more than one rubber band.   If so, it sounds like it was part of a more detailed description that we have not fully seen.  What else was part of that description ?  Did they clearly state that there were rubber bands on each of the three packets/straps ?  Were there two rubber bands per strap ?  How many rubber bands were there ?

In the money analysis that CS performed:

https://citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html

Tom shows a picture of one packet with only ONE rubber band, is this based on what Tom understood the Ingram family to have described?

ughhh....around and around we go :-)

Happy Friday to all !

Edited August 19, 2022 by JAGdb

[FLYJACK 654]

11 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

From Tom Kay at CS web site:

"The rubber bands around the Cooper bundles were extremely degraded but still in their proper positions when found."

I haven't read the CS website in a while:
https://citizensleuths.com/rubber-band-analysis.html

But the line stating that the rubber bands were still in their proper positions must have come from the Ingram's right ?  And he is using the plural form "rubber bands", so the Ingram's observed more than one rubber band.   If so, it sounds like it was part of a more detailed description that we have not fully seen.  What else was part of that description ?  Did they clearly state that there were rubber bands on each of the three packets/straps ?  Were there two rubber bands per strap ?  How many rubber bands were there ?

In the money analysis that CS performed:

https://citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html

Tom shows a picture of one packet with only ONE rubber band, is this based on what Tom understood the Ingram family to have described?

ughhh....around and around we go :-)

Happy Friday to all !

It was never determined.. there were no fragments remaining or locations determined by Tom..

There was the report of rubber band fragments attached that broke when touched.. 

and there was a report that one packet had no rubber bands.. 

So, if there were two rubber bands holding several packets in a single bundle there would be fragments on two of the packets..

Inconclusive..

 

 

 

[georger 195]

Rubber bands belong to a class of materials known as elastomers. Elastomers comprise “coiled up flexible polymers that are 'crosslinked' by chemical molecules, chiefly sulfur." Because of these polymers and their chemical bonds, a rubber band behaves as an “entropic spring,” meaning that it is “happiest” — or most stable — when at rest.

Unlike a paper clip or staple, a rubber band comprises material that automatically returns to its original shape after being deformed. When rubber bands stretch or are heated by sunlight, the polymers contract, which makes them less flexible and more brittle. Stretching a rubber band induces "strain crystallization," of its latex polymers, strains its sulfur bonds. Therefore, simply using a rubber band eventually causes it to reach its 'melt transition phase' followed by crystallization, then becomes brittle before turning to dust.

https://ourpastimes.com/facts-7313310-do-rubber-bands-break-old-.html

The Ingram bands had completed their full chemical life cycle.

' ... the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand.  The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling. They took the money home where they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it. They had no idea at this time where the money had come from. '

No paper straps were seen or encountered.

Edited August 19, 2022 by georger

[The Cooper Vortex 73]

New episode is up now.

 

DB Cooper's Criminal Profile with Robert Fuller. Check it out!

 

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-criminal-profile-robert-fuller/

[FLYJACK 654]

20 hours ago, Slim King said:

 Who made sketch number 1 (The one that looks different from the others) and who was he interviewing to get the information? Was it made in Reno?

Thanks

Dave

Las Vegas,, the stews were interviewed a few days later in Minneapolis for Sketch A which was later deemed poor and redone.

[FLYJACK 654]

17 hours ago, The Cooper Vortex said:

New episode is up now.

 

DB Cooper's Criminal Profile with Robert Fuller. Check it out!

 

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-criminal-profile-robert-fuller/

Ouch, lots of misinformation and over reach,,

I'll only address one item..

I did a deep dive on the ICS matchbook and posted about it here over a year ago, it was a marketing item which could have been picked up almost anywhere in the US and Canada where you buy cigarettes. There is no direct connection to the correspondence School. To claim Gossett or any suspect enrolled in that correspondence School because they had that matchbook is ridiculous. It was mass distribution of advertising material. Further, the empty matchbook Cooper took had notes written in it, that is why he took it not because it had some meaning to him..

and to put a fork in it, I think Gossett became a priest years later..

[georger 195]

16 hours ago, Slim King said:

I read somewhere, and I can't find it now, that the psychologist assigned to the case said that he thought that Cooper might really blow up the plane. This is why they circled around over Puget Sound just in case he did pull the trigger on the bomb. The cockpit crew also wanted to fly south over the ocean. Can anyone direct me to the book I remember this from?

It was an FAA Psychiatrist. Cooper didn't blow up the plane or force crew members to bail with him - did he ? !  The psychiatrist was reading a script.

The record of the Cooper Hijacking is like a high school play with every cast member reading their scripts. Various cast members are still reading their scripts to this very day, with the same results. Ckret became a cast member in 2008. The Ingrams became cast members in 1980. Ulis is one of newest cast members. . . . . . the script hasnt changed in decades. As DB Cooper Turns. 

This is how it appears to a social psychologist.

One interplay of stories and scripts occurs between the Ingrams and the FBI just after the Ingrams appear with FBI agents at the Portland news conference, 1980. After the event a member of the Ingram family calls the FBI and tells them a conflicting version of the money find story the Ingrams have given. She places the money find location closer to the river, 20 ft closer, and with a different series of events. It may be this is the same area where Schreuder etal found their fragment field. But it does not appear that any 302s released to date have documented this story or embellished the full facts.

Lots of scripts being read and played out in the DB Cooper case. That is a fact.  

Edited August 20, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

9 hours ago, Slim King said:

You may be 100% correct!!!! It may be a total Illuminati Play.... Those in the know screwing with us idiots out here on the outside. When I say Illuminati I mean it in the same sense that my father and Ben Franklin used it. Did anyone get the FFA Psychiatrists name?

This is all there is...

[FLYJACK 654]

NORJAK was NOT on autopilot.. weigh the evidence. The evidence for auto pilot is very weak, the evidence for manual flying is very strong.

Remember, the plane was flying dirty, it is unlikely they would fly it in autopilot that dirty in a serious HJ situation.

Here is the evidence for auto pilot..

FBI 302's are NOT conclusions they are investigative notes,, here the claim is the plane was on auto pilot for MOST of Washington.. somebody claimed it was autopilot.

This is a summary notation, again claiming the plane was on auto pilot.. it may have come from the above claim.

 

Now, the argument against auto pilot.. 

Rataczak said he was hand flying the plane and he felt the stairs go down. You have to completely discredit Ratazcak or have irrefutable evidence to contradict his claim.

 

at 49.25

Bill Rataczak: “I did fly it and I found out that Jack Waddell was absolutely right when the stairs came down that flight that airplane lowered about 3 to 5 degrees and I was hand flying it at that time you don’t want to see my flight path because it looked like connect the dots, but we weren’t concerned about that because we knew we were in a safe altitude and air traffic control was watching"

 

In the video/quote above Rataczak confirms the he felt the hijacker on the stairs by a 3 to 5 degree pitch. Waddell stated it would not be felt on auto pilot but it would be felt if manually flying the plane. Ratazcak did feel it, it was being manually flown.

 

Here, Rataczak levelled off the plane and reduced speed.. that indicates manual flying the plane. 

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 hours ago, Slim King said:

Is there a way to tell the time this statement was made?????

Not an exact time noted, but the sequence of events was noted by a range between 6:59 to 7:41..

It was likely 7:00 to 7:05,, during the fuelling at Seattle..

 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 hours ago, Slim King said:

Flyjack

I watched that video a few nights ago. I'm comparing what he said against the newest book I have D,B, Cooper and Flight 305. Houston we have a problem.....

What problem, there are a few things in that book that I don't agree with. Book is mostly a good resource though.

This case is riddled with conflicting information and it can be hard to sort out.

[georger 195]

52 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

What problem, there are a few things in that book that I don't agree with. Book is mostly a good resource though.

This case is riddled with conflicting information and it can be hard to sort out.

This is why Im always interested in developing NEW information about the case. Time is fleeting, people leaving/dying, etc etc. The flight path is settled except for a few diehards. The money facts are a vast unknown! Cooper's identity unknown. The FBI totally uninterested except for FOIA pages. And many good people have left or died or lost interest. Orange, Smoking 99, Hominid, and a few others that I miss. Edwards - wish he was here to debate ? FJ has become indispensable; credits to him big time! Someone may open some new doors in this case because new doors are definitely there waiting to be opened by somebody! People aren't squabbling like they were ...  a little peace and security goes a long way in this case. The whole thing is a crap shoot nobody can predict.

Edited August 21, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

Cooper definitely planned a night jump, Sunset at 4:32 PM Portland.. 

 

Notice wind was light and SE at 7:00 PM (Portland Airport) but it was shifting around 8:00 PM to S and SW.. No precise wind data at 8:12..  Initially the "FBI" assumed a SW wind for Cooper's jump but it could have been between SE and SW.. they did revise the search area assuming a more Southerly wind..

 

Overcast, showers of light rain.

Edited August 21, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

24 minutes ago, Slim King said:

There is a BLACK HOLE in this case. That Black Hole is the flight path. Answer these questions ... Why is there no evidence being presented from the Two Black Boxes? (They are used in virtually EVERY crime or mysterious situation)There is no recorded Radar data ... Only human testimony. Why was it destroyed? The jets scrambled to watch flight 305 NEVER actually saw the plane. Why were they even called escorts? The crew never said they were on Victor 23 did they??? (Although they would have been for the first two calls) My hard evidence is that I actually have lived in those mountains to the east of Seattle .. Snoqualmie pass is only 3015 feet.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snoqualmie_Pass I believe Stevens pass is only 4000 feet. The normal flight path to Reno is over these passes. Even a plane at 10,000 feet could easily get through. BTW .. There are reports that the flight crew was told they could go to 14,000 feet .. Why not go the normal route instead of flying over the most populated area of Washington including it's Capital with a plane the experts said the hijacker was going to blow up?????

Flight path is solid.. it was plotted by the Air Force. It has a 1 mile error. The plane was being tracked, including SAGE.

727 had a simple Flight Data Recorder and it was examined, they found a "little bob" at about 8:09.

The "escorts" didn't have visual but had it on radar.

The crew had established they were going to take V23 and Portland radar confirmed they were a few miles E of the center at one point.. it was 10 miles wide.

Rataczak confirmed the flight path map by inference, he joked about the jerky movement.

Cooper had agreed to a flight plan to go down v23 to Portland to red bluff and over to Reno..

 

 

[Coopericane 44]

19 minutes ago, Slim King said:

If you were told he was going to blow the jet up why would you fly over the most populated section of Washington and Oregon?

SKYJACK offers a rather morbid solution for this question, which is that the two trailing F-106s could have been ordered to take out the plane if it lost control near a populated area...

Edited August 22, 2022 by Coopericane

[georger 195]

4 minutes ago, Slim King said:

That's super interesting......

Bruce Smith discovered that during an interview with somebody close to the situation ... was an interesting interview. But think about it. Plane with bomb over a populated civilian area ?  I wouldnt hesitate to press the button if call on ...

[FLYJACK 654]

14 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Honestly ... These are all statements made by people. No real data. If the FBI said to each of these individuals.. "We need to keep the flight path a secret for (Some reason)" I'm pretty sure they would all comply. And that is why they don't exactly "Jive" with one another. Eric has found a bunch of problems with their testimonies. Although I don't agree with Eric's basic ideas I know he is correct on this.

The map is data, it is the points plotted by the Air Force using GEOREF..

Why doesn't it jive,,,  you can always find some doubt in everything but you need actual evidence to dispute it..

Eric has no actual evidence, he relies on conjecture, exxagerates it to claim it as fact, then builds more conjecture on that pseudo-fact. That is his history and MO... Eric's claims always need to be triple checked.

It all jives to me, if there is actual evidence that it doesn't beyond weak conjecture I haven't seen it.

Claiming it was all a coverup doesn't cut it. You had too many people, too many organizations and too many resources involved, North West Airlines, the Air Force radar, SAGE, the Air Force pilots, NORJAK pilots, ATC, the FBI... then they did the massive search based on the flight path.

Flight path is solid, not sure exactly why they chose that route but they did and were discussing several other refuelling spots in California prior. So, down to California and dog leg over.

The FBI files say Cooper agreed to that route... maybe it is just that simple.

 

[georger 195]

39 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Honestly ... These are all statements made by people. No real data. If the FBI said to each of these individuals.. "We need to keep the flight path a secret for (Some reason)" I'm pretty sure they would all comply. And that is why they don't exactly "Jive" with one another. Eric has found a bunch of problems with their testimonies. Although I don't agree with Eric's basic ideas I know he is correct on this.

FAA and Company rules .... rule in any Incident. There may even be a lifetime restriction, you sign on being hired. Its not unlike noncompete and nondisclosure rules today. 5 year contract restrictions are common. National Security restrictions is whole other level!  

[FLYJACK 654]

39 minutes ago, Slim King said:

If you were told he was going to blow the jet up why would you fly over the most populated section of Washington and Oregon? 

I may not always be right ... I don't have to be.. I've been married 4 times .. I have no problem admitting I was wrong. So I'm not afraid to ask the tough questions.

The coverup/conspiracy about the flight path comes up now and then but there is just no evidence or valid argument for it. 

And I think the world is full of manipulations coverups and conspiracies...

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, Slim King said:

Honestly ... These are all statements made by people. No real data. If the FBI said to each of these individuals.. "We need to keep the flight path a secret for (Some reason)" I'm pretty sure they would all comply. And that is why they don't exactly "Jive" with one another. Eric has found a bunch of problems with their testimonies. Although I don't agree with Eric's basic ideas I know he is correct on this.

The so-called FBI flight path is nonsense.  Dr. Robert Edward's has recently posted on his blog that he was told by an FBI agent that they did not have anything to do with producing that flight path.  It was reportedly given to the FBI by USAF personnel without any supporting data or explanation of the methodology that produced it.

There are 19 redactions from the radio transcripts of the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center and the airliner's communications.  There are also a large number of redactions from the teletype transcripts of the communications between the airliner and the ARINC radio system.

[georger 195]

6 hours ago, Slim King said:

Now THIS is what I'm talking about ... let's ask the tough questions rather than say it's settled already. I've read that NO ONE takes credit for making this flight path. Is that true? Where can I find Robert Edwards blog? I have the book.

No its not true. Its utter subversive nonsense and R99 knows it is.

Who and what Air Force units constructed the flight path and gave it to the FBI has been published here at DZ and at Shutter's site several times over the years. Dr Edwards needs to start reading the thread! That information came directly from Air Force TAG team members after they retired and finally began being interviewed by Hominid and others. This is Old News!  If R99 doesnt accept that, that is his problem. BTW: R99 does not speak for the Washington State Historical Society he keeps citing ! 

Edited August 22, 2022 by georger