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DB Cooper

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I have long argued that because the money went to Cooper rubber banded in bundles of several packets that the money most likely landed on TBAR as one rubber banded bundle of several packets.

Tina asked for money and Cooper handed it to her, she took it and then returned it.. she claims.

she indicated "bank-type bands around each package"

tinabanktypebands.jpeg.ecd189d386941561cca839409f6c3e48.jpeg

It was reported but unconfirmed that Cooper also offered Flo and Alice ransom money as they left the plane but no description of it..

I don't know of anyone on this case who has done more research on the bills than Flyjack.  I have not kept track of every entry, but his process is sound.  If someone is interested in getting background on the bills, I'd recommend reading his entries here on the DZ.

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(edited)
4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You have Tina, the bank guy in the FBI files, Himmelsbach and Tosaw corroborating bank bands..  could they all be wrong, it is possible but we need some solid evidence to challenge it.

But, if they were paper bands on the packets, bundled into groups of packets with rubber bands how does that change the TBAR scenario?

Paper bands would deteriorate in about 3 months in nature,, not long enough to reach spring '72.

If the paper bands were wet, how long would the glue hold?

 

Tom did not test paper bank straps ... it wasnt in the vita. I caution about making blanket statements. I am going to use the word straps vs bands. Maybe!

Currency money straps colors and capacities conform to Federal Reserve Bank standards for currency straps. Dimensions: 1.25 x 7.875.  Where they overlap provides double protection. They are self sticking. They stiffen and compress a package of money in a money bag ... they change the geometry and mass of a load. When used, a bag of money could become a missile...

I can already hear the gears in people's brains turning ... any paper money straps in the Cooper comic ?  

Can anyone see any band shadows on any of the bills? I question that these bands automatically dissolve in 6 mos or any other magical time period, convenient to a particular narrative ... go look on the Treasury Department's Forensic Money website. 

whole bill.JPG

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, georger said:

Here we go again! Bank currency straps designed to last only 6 months defeats the purpose of having them, in the first place. Is there a paper chemist here who can shed light on this ? Give us some facts for a change! 

Here we go again, Georger playing histrionics,, nobody said they are designed to last 6 months.

Paper bank bands are paper not the same material as currency,, paper disintegrates within 3 months outside and wet.. if they were stored in a dry environment like a bank they would last a long time.. probably longer than stretched rubber bands.

I am not sure about the glue... would it release quickly when wet?

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29 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Hi everyone .. I love this thread. In addition I'd like to give you a little background on my experience and why I think I can help solve this case.

1) I was on the ground in Longview Washington when Cooper jumped. I was 17 years old.. A senior at R A Long High School. My family were avid hunters and it was Extended Buck season. Thousands of hunters were literally hunting for the Money and the Man.(A good song by the way) Many were my friends.

2) I have jumped twice in the advertised jump area at less than 175 knots and at 10,000 feet. I'm an inexperienced jumper but these were solo jumps made a few years after the Cooper jump. The first jump was at about the time of day Cooper WANTED to jump. The second was mid day. Both times I believe I used a chute very similar to his. The weather conditions were good. (They wouldn't let us jump in a storm)

3) I am extremely qualified to instigate or spot Deception. I have been consulted by Law Enforcement personnel about how to spot lies or misdirection. (No ... My last name is Koenig but my first name is not Joe.. Just coincedence) David Copperfield  has purchased the rights to one of my Mental Illusions and he performs it twice a night in Vegas. I've studied Deception for over 20 years. I hold both the Houdini Award and the Merlin Award... Trickery is my business.

4) My wife has worked in a bank for over 20 years. She knows the ins and outs of money and how it is handled in banks. The drummer in one of my bands lived on Suavie Island which I believe is near Tina Bar. My band played Portland Oregon often and it is possible I knew the cocaine dealers who claimed the money was planted. (Still trying sniff that one out) I am skeptical of every single word that the FBI has said in this case. I'm not calling them liars but I am demanding proof instead of just their word.

5) Virtually every kid in my neighborhood would have loved to believe that his father was D.B. Cooper. I felt the same way but my Dad was only 5 foot 5...I have. a similar mindset to Cooper. Sticking it to the man was a good thing back then. People were rioting because of the insane war. Four were killed in Ohio. Stewardesses looked like Euro Trash Movie stars and the world was a much different place back then.

6) I'm semi-retired now and I only have to perform a few times a month. So I have plenty of time to read all the new books, I was on Coast to Coast AM talking about Cooper a while back and I'll be doing it again. I see this as a good place to start .. There's much more but I don't want to burn your eyes out just yet.....

Welcome to DZ and keep posting.

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2 hours ago, Slim King said:

Hi everyone .. I love this thread. In addition I'd like to give you a little background on my experience and why I think I can help solve this case.

1) I was on the ground in Longview Washington when Cooper jumped. I was 17 years old.. A senior at R A Long High School. My family were avid hunters and it was Extended Buck season. Thousands of hunters were literally hunting for the Money and the Man.(A good song by the way) Many were my friends.

2) I have jumped twice in the advertised jump area at less than 175 knots and at 10,000 feet. I'm an inexperienced jumper but these were solo jumps made a few years after the Cooper jump. The first jump was at about the time of day Cooper WANTED to jump. The second was mid day. Both times I believe I used a chute very similar to his. The weather conditions were good. (They wouldn't let us jump in a storm)

3) I am extremely qualified to instigate or spot Deception. I have been consulted by Law Enforcement personnel about how to spot lies or misdirection. (No ... My last name is Koenig but my first name is not Joe.. Just coincedence) David Copperfield  has purchased the rights to one of my Mental Illusions and he performs it twice a night in Vegas. I've studied Deception for over 20 years. I hold both the Houdini Award and the Merlin Award... Trickery is my business.

4) My wife has worked in a bank for over 20 years. She knows the ins and outs of money and how it is handled in banks. The drummer in one of my bands lived on Suavie Island which I believe is near Tina Bar. My band played Portland Oregon often and it is possible I knew the cocaine dealers who claimed the money was planted. (Still trying sniff that one out) I am skeptical of every single word that the FBI has said in this case. I'm not calling them liars but I am demanding proof instead of just their word.

5) Virtually every kid in my neighborhood would have loved to believe that his father was D.B. Cooper. I felt the same way but my Dad was only 5 foot 5...I have. a similar mindset to Cooper. Sticking it to the man was a good thing back then. People were rioting because of the insane war. Four were killed in Ohio. Stewardesses looked like Euro Trash Movie stars and the world was a much different place back then.

6) I'm semi-retired now and I only have to perform a few times a month. So I have plenty of time to read all the new books, I was on Coast to Coast AM talking about Cooper a while back and I'll be doing it again. I see this as a good place to start .. There's much more but I don't want to burn your eyes out just yet.....

Welcome. Completely off topic, but what instrument do you play and what type of music?

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9 hours ago, JAGdb said:

How come Allison Hancock never seems to be included in this question, wasn't she there when Cooper offered some of the ransom money ?  Didn't Cooper actually attempt to hand a packet to them (Flo/Tina/Allison)?  I guess Allison is even more elusive or tight lipped when it comes to answering Cooper questions.

According to Geoff Gray's Skyjack, Flo and Alice were offered the change from the $20 that Cooper used to purchase his drink. So Alice may not have actually gotten a good look at the ransom money.

skyjack.jpg

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9 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

According to Geoff Gray's Skyjack, Flo and Alice were offered the change from the $20 that Cooper used to purchase his drink. So Alice may not have actually gotten a good look at the ransom money.

skyjack.jpg

Page 23 of Richard Tosaw's book has a discussion of Cooper offering Alice and Florence (the other two stews) one bundle of money each as they were departing the aircraft. Both declined to accept it.

 

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14 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

So who knows? I've never read Tosaw's book. Is it worth a read?

Yes, Ratazcak said it was the best book (2011) the only one at the time that he thought got things right and he got final approval.. Himmelsbach book 2nd...

That said, all books can have errors.

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The pink canopy of the chute bursts open and covers the seats like popped bubble gum.

Yeah... umm, no. Those things didn't have pilot chutes, and without the relative wind of freefall, that thing at best is going to fall to the floor below where it's being held. If it is on the floor, or one of the seats, it's going to sit there until it's pulled out. If it did have a pilot chute, the pilot chute would pop out to however strong the spring was.

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5 hours ago, Slim King said:

I have jumped twice in the advertised jump area at less than 175 knots and at 10,000 feet. I'm an inexperienced jumper but these were solo jumps made a few years after the Cooper jump.

I'm curious about how you made your jumps. In those days there were no tandems or AFF like today. Everyone, military or civilian, went through static-line programs, and the first few jumps would be static-line at about 3,000ft. There were a couple people doing harness hold 'buddy' jumps. A guy named Bob Sinclair famously did one with Johnny Carson in I think '68.

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(edited)
7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Here we go again, Georger playing histrionics,, nobody said they are designed to last 6 months.

Paper bank bands are paper not the same material as currency,, paper disintegrates within 3 months outside and wet.. if they were stored in a dry environment like a bank they would last a long time.. probably longer than stretched rubber bands.

I am not sure about the glue... would it release quickly when wet?

No histrionics - just want the facts for a change. You dont really know anything about "Federal Reserve approved money straps" but that doesnt prevent you from telling us all about them! Dissolve in 6 months ? Paper disintegrates within three months? Are paper not same as currency. But you arent sure about the glue ... 

Im not going to waste people's time reciting what three paper chemists familiar with the Cooper case said today. We dont need facts in the Cooper case.

You should open a lab and compete with these paper chemists: SGS Integrated Paper Services  https://ipstesting.com/

Tell us all about those straps, FJ. You know more about the DB Cooper money than the Ingrams, Tom Kaye, the FBI, and everyone else all put together! Who dares compete! 

This is hopeless. Isnt it!  

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, georger said:

No histrionics - just want the facts for a change. You dont really know anything about "Federal Reserve approved money straps" but that doesnt prevent you from telling us all about them! Dissolve in 6 months ? Paper disintegrates within three months? Are paper not same as currency. But you arent sure about the glue ... 

Im not going to waste people's time reciting what three paper chemists familiar with the Cooper case said today. We dont need facts in the Cooper case.

You should open a lab and compete with these paper chemists: SGS Integrated Paper Services  https://ipstesting.com/

Tell us all about those straps, FJ. You know more about the DB Cooper money than the Ingrams, Tom Kaye, the FBI, and everyone else all put together! Who dares compete! 

This is hopeless. Isnt it!  

Nobody said they were designed to fail in 6 months, you made it up. 

Not sure why you feel the need to do that.

ABA and Federal Reserve straps are made from white kraft paper. One of the strongest papers when dry but weakens significantly when wet..

It can degrade in weeks depending on environment, 3 months is max outside and wet..

I have no idea what type of glue was used in 1971.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
4 hours ago, Slim King said:

Have you noticed any changes in Ratazcak's testimony over the years?

No, he has been consistent. Others have been trying to discredit Ratazcak but IMO have failed miserably.

The only caveat is that the crew was instructed early on to only mention public info already revealed in the newspapers. So, they have generally revealed more over time as more case info has become public.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Nobody said they were designed to fail in 6 months, you made it up. 

Not sure why you feel the need to do that.

ABA and Federal Reserve straps are made from white kraft paper. One of the strongest papers when dry but weakens significantly when wet..

It can degrade in weeks depending on environment, 3 months is max outside and wet..

I have no idea what type of glue was used in 1971.

Brown or white? Contact glue or lickable? Any lettering on the straps - which bank?  How many straps used on the $200k ? And did Cooper pack money or newspapers as insulation inside his cloths before jumping? What type and brand of underwear?   

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9 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Very cool indeed. I thought the first one looked too young. I wish they would have done the Schaffner sketch that is often compared to Braden.

Yes, I agree and actually thought the same for the second one, that while there was some aging, it didn't give the 45ish type feel.  Not sure if those were real people or just computer generated.  

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14 hours ago, JAGdb said:

thought this was pretty cool, they morph the composites into live faces:

 

I saw that vid,, sketch A was no good, so toss it, the vid images look too young and not particularly swarthy/latin,, the hair doesn't match the witnesses of curly, wavy, marceled..

 

 

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(edited)

Adding money bands to the money equation produces some notable results! Everyone including Tom Kaye may have to go back to the drawing board. Let's do some basic math.

$200,000 grouped by 100 bill PACKETS, = 100 packets each with a "bank type money band" = strap. So says Tina and H etal according to FJ. FlyJack may want to issue some amendments to this formula ?

FJ notes these straps comply with Federal Reserve and ABA standards as to size, kraft paper?, and weight. Those numbers are:    Standard size (7.75 x 1.25 In) at 100 g/sqm each.

Total amount of kraft paper in the the bag with the money is:  6.7 Square Feet of Kraft paper at 22.046 lbs of money straps alone in addition to the weight of the money!

Conclusions:  we now have to recalculate the weight of the money bag ?  Tom Kaye must go back to the drawing board. This affects conclusions about the 305 Flight Test. etc etc etc etc ... all because of Kraft papere money straps left out of people's original equations!  We must add 6.7 Square Feet and 22 lbs of Kraft paper to the environment of the money bag and the natural physics of that environment .... and a whole lot of people may now have egg on their faces  due to incompetence failing to Kraft paper money straps which FJ insists were on the DB Cooper money bundles ! But math does not lie in any event. ;)

Edited by georger

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1 hour ago, georger said:

Adding money bands to the money equation produces some notable results! Everyone including Tom Kaye may have to go back to the drawing board. Let's do some basic math.

$200,000 grouped by 100 bill PACKETS, = 100 packets each with a "bank type money band" = strap. So says Tina and H etal according to FJ. FlyJack may want to issue some amendments to this formula ?

FJ notes these straps comply with Federal Reserve and ABA standards as to size, kraft paper?, and weight. Those numbers are:    Standard size (7.75 x 1.25 In) at 100 g/sqm each.

Total amount of kraft paper in the the bag with the money is:  6.7 Square Feet of Kraft paper at 22.046 lbs of money straps alone in addition to the weight of the money!

Conclusions:  we now have to recalculate the weight of the money bag ?  Tom Kaye must go back to the drawing board. This affects conclusions about the 305 Flight Test. etc etc etc etc ... all because of Kraft papere money straps left out of people's original equations!  We must add 6.7 Square Feet and 22 lbs of Kraft paper to the environment of the money bag and the natural physics of that environment .... and a whole lot of people may now have egg on their faces  due to incompetence failing to Kraft paper money straps which FJ insists were on the DB Cooper money bundles ! But math does not lie in any event. ;)

Georger goes into a funk mode now and then and plays the histrionics and exaggeration game for attention,, perhaps out of frustration, a cry for help or an attempt at sarcasm..

Best to just ignore..  clearly nonsensical.. 100 straps is obviously not 22 lbs.

 

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(edited)
6 hours ago, Slim King said:

So you are saying 6 square feet of paper makes a huge difference?

Well it might make a difference. Keep in mind we are now assuming FJ is right - paper straps, without any confirmation of that. Do we just continue on the assumption FJ is right, to keep him happy and tranquil?  And that Ckret is wrong. FJ right. Ckret wrong! Headline in the Oregonian tomorrow!!

Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect. In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy.       

took out one package of the money,     and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her!

No mention of paper straps there. Hmmmmmmmm. How did he get through the paper straps to "one bundle" without Tina seeing it and remembering? But when Tina utters the words 'bank type bands' - FJ uses that to indicate "straps of money and paper straps, and rubber bands "! Tina also refers to the money as "bundles" in another passage. So, straps of money because H said that, paper straps because FJ says that, rubber bands because people saw that, and bundles of money because several people and FJ said that, and Kraft paper ... and a partridge in a pear tree. 

Ive been through this debate before (with Carr and Ingram) and it took a week + to resolve. I wonder what Tom Kaye will say .......... in 2054!  Will Georger dissolve into jello waiting ? 

Extremism is as Extremism does.

Edited by georger

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(edited)

Federal Reserve Services re- bank strap regulations:  https://www.frbservices.org/resources/financial-services/cash/depositing-ordering/visual-reference-guide.html

Were money straps thinner in the 60s/70s than they are today ?  See previous posts at DZ about how the money for Cooper was prepared; stressed the time factor involved and security concerns. Ckret posted about this topic. Now we add bank straps also applied ! Note the Fed Reserve stipulation that  straps must not interfere with any rubber bands also being applied.

So far as I know the world has yet to identified one piece of a rubber band from the Ingram find. Tom Kaye looked but could find none, as I recall. Maybe rubber bands were just assumed but never used either? Can anyone show us a rubber band fragment today?     

What was Tina referring to when she referred to a "bundle" but also said "bank type bands" ?  The only way to find out is to ask her and that has not happened since the hijacking happened! Maybe it's time to finally ask her ? 

Screenshot 2022-08-18 at 23-22-10 Deposit Visual Reference Guide.png

Edited by georger

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