DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

10 hours ago, Robert99 said:

No.  Basically, the so-called FBI flight path can be dismissed by simple inspection.  However, I think I listed more reasons than that in dismissing it.

How can it be dismissed..

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

How can it be dismissed..

Simple.  No airliner would fly a path like that.  

[FLYJACK 654]

18 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Simple.  No airliner would fly a path like that.  

Not simple, that isn't the actual path, it is a connect the plotted dots made to roughly represent the path,, there is a 1 mile error in it.

If you take the 1 mile error and extend the points within the error, it can be smoothed out to represent what a jet path would look like.

Something like this.. The pink line is within the plotting error.. may not be exactly the path the jet took but close.

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 146]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Not simple, that isn't the actual path, it is a connect the plotted dots made to roughly represent the path,, there is a 1 mile error in it.

If you take the 1 mile error and extend the points within the error, it can be smoothed out to represent what a jet path would look like.

Something like this.. The pink line is within the plotting error.. may not be exactly the path the jet took but close.

 

Does V23 encompass both the FBI flight path and the WFP, how about the EFP (Washougal)?

[FLYJACK 654]

15 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Does V23 encompass both the FBI flight path and the WFP, how about the EFP (Washougal)?

Not the WFP..

The most Eastern point on the "FBI" path is a few miles from a creek that connects to the Washougal, but it is a tiny creek, more like a ditch, goes into Lacamas Lake. Very hard to imagine money that sinks making its way all that way, across the lake down another small creek to the Washougall and into the Columbia..

[georger 194]

JAG  asks:

Perhaps this is silly question, but does anyone know or has anyone ever asked if the FBI took/has "crime scene" photographs from inside of N467US once they landed in Reno and examined the plane?  I know there are pictures of the inside of the plane from the sled test in early 72, but was really wondering if they had pictures of row 18, the aft stairs, the controls for lowering the stairs ?  Is this something that TK or Geoffrey Gray could confirm based on their access to the FBI files on the case ?  If they exist, could FOIA be made for them or would it be included in the current monthly releases ?

Good important questions. It was Gray and Carr who have done extensive interviews with Reno agents (retired). Gray was very protective of his information. I think he knows more than he has written or released. Maybe Darren should interview Gray about how the plane was canvassed by Reno agents, their dog(s)?, what type of dogs they were ... 'the dogs ate the lunches and created a total mess' ? ... and there are several long posts somewhere early in the thread about what Agents did and how Agents handled the Reno situation. Reno played a very important role in this case because of how they handled the Reno boarding and forensic examination.

Edited June 10, 2022 by georger

[CooperNWO305 146]

1 hour ago, georger said:

JAG  asks:

Perhaps this is silly question, but does anyone know or has anyone ever asked if the FBI took/has "crime scene" photographs from inside of N467US once they landed in Reno and examined the plane?  I know there are pictures of the inside of the plane from the sled test in early 72, but was really wondering if they had pictures of row 18, the aft stairs, the controls for lowering the stairs ?  Is this something that TK or Geoffrey Gray could confirm based on their access to the FBI files on the case ?  If they exist, could FOIA be made for them or would it be included in the current monthly releases ?

Good important questions. It was Gray who did extensive interviews with Reno agents (retired) for his book. Gray was very protective of his information. I think he knows more than he has written or released. Maybe Darren should interview Gray about how the plane was canvassed by Reno agents, their dog(s)?, what type of dogs were these ... 'the dogs ate the lunches and created a mess' ? ... and there are several long posts somewhere early in the thread about what Agents did and how Agents handled the Reno situation. Reno played a very important role in this case because of how they handled the Reno boarding and forensic examination.  Likewise I think Carr has looked into the Reno story at some depth...  

I've noticed a trend where the FBI files released seem to often times have info that has recently been a hot topic, for instance the air stairs.  That topic was being discussed a lot, and then it shows up in the FBI release.  I have not seen a lot of rhyme or reason to how the files are released, like by date order.  You'll see a file from 1972 and then one from 1982.  So maybe if we talk about it enough, something could show up.  It's possible that Mark Zaid uses the discussions to then ask for certain files.  I don't know, but it does seem to be a trend.

I asked about photos a few weeks ago and was told there have not been any released, so yea, I'd like to see it too.  I've been thinking about the tie some.

Was it Cooper's? What really indicates that it was his?  He was wearing it, ok.  But he was wearing a suit too, and we talk about him buying a suit secondhand, but not a tie?  Ties did not typically show up in secondhand stores I guess.  They did end up in lost and founds though.  Cooper did not wear any identifying jewelry, no watch, no rings, etc. But he decided to wear a tie bar/pin etc?? Does Cooper buy a suit but use his own tie?  Possibly.  But if he did get it second hand, and we trace the particles to say Kansas, that helps.  I question how rare those elements were, titanium specifically.  It was being used on aircraft and racing cars in the 60s for certain.  I have to imagine it was on other items like trucks, cars, brakes, etc.  Anything needing light weight or corrosion resistance.

The part about the pictures would help me a bit.  I think he could have dropped the tie accidently, or on purpose, or placed it and not picked it up.  But if he had a tie bar, that would have been used to hold the tie to his shirt, and therefore it would not be flapping in his face.  Why place the tie on the middle seat and not the seat closest to the aisle, or on Bill Mitchell's side?

We don't know if he left the tie on purpose or by accident.

In terms of photos, I'd like to see how things were found, the tie, the chutes, etc.  Citizen sleuths have 50 years of discussion and learning and may be able to see something the FBI did not see.

Edited June 10, 2022 by CooperNWO305

[Robert99 37]

3 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Does V23 encompass both the FBI flight path and the WFP, how about the EFP (Washougal)?

Let's take a realistic look at the map.  Draw a straight line between the Malay and Canby Intersections.  We will call this the Western Flight Path and it is the furthest west that airliner would have any reason to be while in the Portland area.  To repeat, there is absolutely no reason for the airliner to be west of the WFP.

Assuming that the Victor airways are 8 nautical miles wide (4 nautical miles on each side of the airway centerline), as I think they were in 1971, an aircraft on the WFP would be outside the boundary of V-23 for a total distance of about 30 nautical miles which represents about 10 minutes of flying time.

The WFP distance outside the boundary of V-23 varies from 0 to 3 nautical miles with the maximum of 3 nautical miles being when the aircraft is directly west of the Battleground VORTAC.

Note that the WFP passes almost directly overhead of Tena Bar and that the time over Tena Bar is approximately 8:11 or 8:12 PM PST.  This has been discussed repeatedly over the last 10 years or so.  It simply eliminates the need for a complicated jury rigged scenario to explain all major factors in the flight path of the airliner.

For the record, Flyjack's red line can also be dismissed.  At several points, the airliner is about 3 nautical miles from the centerline of V-23.  Other things being equal, aircraft are expected to stay on the centerline of Victor airways and there is a regulation stating that.  If the flight crew couldn't keep the aircraft on the centerline, then their autopilot certainly could.  Even the simplest wing leveler in a Cessna 150 could do that.  

Edited June 10, 2022 by Robert99

[FLYJACK 654]

34 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

For the record, Flyjack's red line can also be dismissed.  At several points, the airliner is about 3 nautical miles from the centerline of V-23.  Other things being equal, aircraft are expected to stay on the centerline of Victor airways and there is a regulation stating that.  If the flight crew couldn't keep the aircraft on the centerline, then their autopilot certainly could.  Even the simplest wing leveler in a Cessna 150 could do that.  

Wrong, the airliner did not stay on the center of V-23 per Portland ATC. It was hand flown by Rataczak not on autopilot.

You just can't dismiss something because you have the facts wrong.

The jagged and abrupt nature of the "FBI" map is because it is 1 min incremented plotted points.. somebody just joined the points, it is not the actual path. It is a crude representation. It can be smoothed out within the 1 mile plotting error to accurately reflect a jet's path..

Edited June 10, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Coopericane 44]

3 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I've noticed a trend where the FBI files released seem to often times have info that has recently been a hot topic, for instance the air stairs.  That topic was being discussed a lot, and then it shows up in the FBI release.  I have not seen a lot of rhyme or reason to how the files are released, like by date order.  You'll see a file from 1972 and then one from 1982.  So maybe if we talk about it enough, something could show up.  It's possible that Mark Zaid uses the discussions to then ask for certain files.  I don't know, but it does seem to be a trend.

I think I've noticed that too... like for example with release #57, the Egg Harbor Suspect was getting talked about, and then boom, nearly half of the new pages seemed to be about him. That didn't feel like a coincidence to me, but who can say for sure...

I still want to know what Carr thinks about the relevant files of the EHS and Shelton Lead... (if someone hasn't bothered him already about them, of course) Marty has a good recap of what we know about them on his blog, which could be a good jumping-off point. I assume they probably led to nothing, but I have been dying for some follow-up information on those two since first reading about them.

[georger 194]

42 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Wrong, the airliner did not stay on the center of V-23 per Portland ATC. It was hand flown by Rataczak not on autopilot.

You just can't dismiss something because you have the facts wrong.

The jagged and abrupt nature of the "FBI" map is because it is 1 min incremented plotted points.. somebody just joined the points, it is not the actual path. It is a crude representation. It can be smoothed out within the 1 mile plotting error to accurately reflect a jet's path..

Exactly. The 'points' are radar plots?

[georger 194]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Let's take a realistic look at the map.  Draw a straight line between the Malay and Canby Intersections.  We will call this the Western Flight Path and it is the furthest west that airliner would have any reason to be while in the Portland area.  To repeat, there is absolutely no reason for the airliner to be west of the WFP.

Assuming that the Victor airways are 8 nautical miles wide (4 nautical miles on each side of the airway centerline), as I think they were in 1971, an aircraft on the WFP would be outside the boundary of V-23 for a total distance of about 30 nautical miles which represents about 10 minutes of flying time.

The WFP distance outside the boundary of V-23 varies from 0 to 3 nautical miles with the maximum of 3 nautical miles being when the aircraft is directly west of the Battleground VORTAC.

Note that the WFP passes almost directly overhead of Tena Bar and that the time over Tena Bar is approximately 8:11 or 8:12 PM PST.  This has been discussed repeatedly over the last 10 years or so.  It simply eliminates the need for a complicated jury rigged scenario to explain all major factors in the flight path of the airliner.

For the record, Flyjack's red line can also be dismissed.  At several points, the airliner is about 3 nautical miles from the centerline of V-23.  Other things being equal, aircraft are expected to stay on the centerline of Victor airways and there is a regulation stating that.  If the flight crew couldn't keep the aircraft on the centerline, then their autopilot certainly could.  Even the simplest wing leveler in a Cessna 150 could do that.  

You are trying to convert the wrong people! Your debate is with the people who developed the FBI fp and those people are all dead! You are wasting your time, quite frankly.

There is NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER IN FACTS, that ties the money find to the flight path. The tail does not wag the dog, R99!

Edited June 10, 2022 by georger

[CooperNWO305 146]

2 hours ago, georger said:

You are trying to convert the wrong people! Your debate is with the people who developed the FBI fp and those people are all dead! You are wasting your time, quite frankly.

There is NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER IN FACTS, that ties the money find to the flight path. The tail does not wag the dog, R99!

That’s a great way to put it. The tail does not wag the dog. The money find does not prove a flight path. 

[DFS346 7]

Here's a question for georger and hominid. On 01.28.2014 you interviewed Harold Anderson, who had been the flight engineer on Flight 305. In parentheses you wrote: "[One of the airforce guys (Msgt Saiz) who went out on the stair told me that he jumped up and down on the stair at some point to test how the plane would react.  Of course, he was able to experience how the stair responded, but not how the plane responded.  The other two still-living airforce people have no memory of this.]".

Could you share a transcript of your interview with MSgt Saiz?

[Robert99 37]

8 hours ago, georger said:

You are trying to convert the wrong people! Your debate is with the people who developed the FBI fp and those people are all dead! You are wasting your time, quite frankly.

There is NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER IN FACTS, that ties the money find to the flight path. The tail does not wag the dog, R99!

Golly!  Flyjack, Georger, and apparently others, are now admitting that the FBI flight path DOES NOT represent the flight path of the airliner.  These fellows apparently don't realize that is exactly what I have been saying for more than a decade.

And that nothing ties the money to the flight path?  Are you going to now claim that nothing ties the money to the hijacking?

Finally, I am not trying to convert anyone.  You are just going nuts because you cannot convert me.

[georger 194]

41 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Golly!  Flyjack, Georger, and apparently others, are now admitting that the FBI flight path DOES NOT represent the flight path of the airliner.  These fellows apparently don't realize that is exactly what I have been saying for more than a decade.

And that nothing ties the money to the flight path?  Are you going to now claim that nothing ties the money to the hijacking?

Finally, I am not trying to convert anyone.  You are just going nuts because you cannot convert me.

Nonsense. 

[georger 194]

5 hours ago, DFS346 said:

Here's a question for georger and hominid. On 01.28.2014 you interviewed Harold Anderson, who had been the flight engineer on Flight 305. In parentheses you wrote: "[One of the airforce guys (Msgt Saiz) who went out on the stair told me that he jumped up and down on the stair at some point to test how the plane would react.  Of course, he was able to experience how the stair responded, but not how the plane responded.  The other two still-living airforce people have no memory of this.]".

Could you share a transcript of your interview with MSgt Saiz?

Let me verify what Hominid's status is first.

Hominid's post history at DZ can be found through a Search using the term /Hominid/. That will give you a cross section of the material Hominid was working on and posted about. I hope this helps. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

7 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Golly!  Flyjack, Georger, and apparently others, are now admitting that the FBI flight path DOES NOT represent the flight path of the airliner.  These fellows apparently don't realize that is exactly what I have been saying for more than a decade.

And that nothing ties the money to the flight path?  Are you going to now claim that nothing ties the money to the hijacking?

Finally, I am not trying to convert anyone.  You are just going nuts because you cannot convert me.

That comment is intellectually dishonest and just discredits you...

Everybody knows the FBI map is unsmoothed plotted points and no way supports your western flight path theory..

Nobody needs to convert you, your argument exposes you.

[Robert99 37]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That comment is intellectually dishonest and just discredits you...

Everybody knows the FBI map is unsmoothed plotted points and no way supports your western flight path theory..

Nobody needs to convert you, your argument exposes you.

FlyJack, you obviously do not understand the things involved in creating the so-called FBI flight path.  To its credit, the FBI apparently did not have anything to do with preparing that flight path and the present day FBI agents reportedly don't know where it came from.

For the record, I have NEVER claimed that the FBI map supports the Western Flight Path.  And if you have read my previous posts you know that.  So your claim to the contrary is baloney.

How accurate are the "unsmoothed plotted points" that you mention?  First, let me point out that "smoothing" plotted points does not necessarily increase the plots accuracy.  If, by chance, smoothing does increase the accuracy, I would suggest that you need to do some serious recalibrating both mentally and equipment wise.

I don't know the accuracy, both azimuth and distance wise, of the radar equipment that produced the data used to generate the FBI map.  But I believe that you may have posted on this previously.  If it was the McChord radar facility, each degree of azimuth would be the equivalent of about 1.5 to 2.0 nautical miles laterally in the Portland area.

So there is really no such thing as a radar "point" here.  It's an area the size of which depends on the radar characteristics.  The VOR and DME equipment onboard the airliner could probably determine the airliner's position more accurately than the McChord radar.

The other fellow who posted above apparently now considers himself to be an expert or some such thing.  About 12 years ago, I had to point out to him such elementary things as that North was generally positioned at the top of a map.  Hopefully, he has now read something on navigation. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Robert99

[FLYJACK 654]

6 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, you obviously do not understand the things involved in creating the so-called FBI flight path.  To its credit, the FBI apparently did not have anything to do with preparing that flight path and the present day FBI agents reportedly don't know where it came from.

For the record, I have NEVER claimed that the FBI map supports the Western Flight Path.  And if you have read my previous posts you know that.  So your claim to the contrary is baloney.

How accurate are the "unsmoothed plotted points" that you mention?  First, let me point out that "smoothing" plotted points does not necessarily increase the plots accuracy.  If, by chance, smoothing does increase the accuracy, I would suggest that you need to do some serious recalibrating both mentally and equipment wise.

I don't know the accuracy, both azimuth and distance wise, of the radar equipment that produced the data used to generate the FBI map.  But I believe that you may have posted on this previously.  If it was the McChord radar facility, each degree of azimuth would be the equivalent of about 1.5 to 2.0 nautical miles laterally in the Portland area.

So there is really no such thing as a radar "point" here.  It's an area the size of which depends on the radar characteristics.  The VOR and DME equipment onboard the airliner could probably determine the airliner's position more accurately than the McChord radar.

The other fellow who posted above apparently now considers himself to be an expert or some such thing.  About 12 years ago, I had to point out to him such elementary things as that North was generally positioned at the top of a map.  Hopefully, he has now read something on navigation. 

I understand very well, 

When I asked you about your WFP, you claimed the "FBI" map can be dismissed because no airliner would fly like that.. your argument was essentially that the "FBI" map was not legit. So, it was your argument and clearly you can't defend it.

The map wasn't created by the FBI but was used and presented by the FBI so is referred to as the "FBI" map. We all know that.

We also know it is plotted points connected by hand drawn lines.. it is a crude representation of the path. It can be smoothed within the 1 mile error to represent the path of a jet. The smoothing does not increase the accuracy and is not intended to do so, it only demonstrates that given the 1 mile error it does represent the smooth path of a jet rather than the jagged and abrupt path we see.

Rataczak said he was hand flying the plane and Portland ATC said it was up to 2 miles E of the center of V-23..

So, your argument and dismissal of the "FBI" map is not justified in any way.. in evidence or reasonable inference.

 

[georger 194]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I understand very well, 

When I asked you about your WFP, you claimed the "FBI" map can be dismissed because no airliner would fly like that.. your argument was essentially that the "FBI" map was not legit. So, it was your argument and clearly you can't defend it.

The map wasn't created by the FBI but was used and presented by the FBI so is referred to as the "FBI" map. We all know that.

We also know it is plotted points connected by hand drawn lines.. it is a crude representation of the path. It can be smoothed within the 1 mile error to represent the path of a jet. The smoothing does not increase the accuracy and is not intended to do so, it only demonstrates that given the 1 mile error it does represent the smooth path of a jet rather than the jagged and abrupt path we see.

Rataczak said he was hand flying the plane and Portland ATC said it was up to 2 miles E of the center of V-23..

So, your argument and dismissal of the "FBI" map is not justified in any way.. in evidence or reasonable inference.

 

In addition, R99 has other 'stipulations' which he says are fundamental to his WFP/Tena Bar theory. (1) Cooper was a no pull - fell straight down, somewhere 'up hill'  or 'east of where the money was found'. (2) "Water flows down hill!" This moves money to where found at Tena Bar, and (3) It was somebody at the FBI, maybe even a secretary, who actually sat down with a pencil and made the FBI FP Map Carr presented to the world. 

In any event, R99's WFP is only the beginning of a series of assumptions required to bring the money find into the orbit of the 305 flight path. According to R99, the money find and the flight path of 305 must have a direct cause-and-effect connection. Moreover, R99 evolved his current WFP theory over a period of years. He began years ago making assertions about other options for Cooper money arriving at Tena Bar. R99 seems to develop a theory for all occasions as forum conditions and forum politics changes. (The Jo Weber Method ?)

In contrast to this, Hominid took another approach. He decided to find and interview various Air Force and NWA personnel who were actually involved in the 305 Test Flight and the creation of a flight path search map shared with NWA and the FBI used in a search for DB Cooper. Some of Hominid's work was posted at Dropzone for use by the public.

Two totally different approaches with totally different results.  

Edited June 11, 2022 by georger

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, georger said:

In addition, R99 has other 'stipulations' which he says are fundamental to his WFP/Tena Bar theory. (1) Cooper was a no pull - fell straight down, somewhere 'up hill'  or 'east of where the money was found'. (2) "Water flows down hill!" This moves money to where found at Tena Bar, and (3) It was somebody at the FBI, maybe even a secretary, who actually sat down with a pencil and made the FBI FP Map Carr presented to the world. 

In any event, R99's WFP is only the beginning of a series of assumptions required to bring the money find into the orbit of the 305 flight path. According to R99, the money find and the flight path of 305 must have a direct cause-and-effect connection. Moreover, R99 evolved his current WFP theory over a period of years. He began years ago making assertions about other options for Cooper money arriving at Tena Bar. R99 seems to develop a theory for all occasions as forum conditions and forum politics changes. (The Jo Weber Method ?)

In contrast to this, Hominid took another approach. He decided to find and interview various Air Force and NWA personnel who were actually involved in the 305 Test Flight and the creation of a flight path search map shared with NWA and the FBI used in a search for DB Cooper. Some of Hominid's work was posted at Dropzone for use by the public.

Two totally different approaches with totally different results.  

Georger, this is just more of your nonsense.  Your claim that I said Cooper "fell straight down" is laughable.  Are you also going to claim that the money bag came floating down the river, or maybe rolling on the bottom of it, and then crawled up the embankment at Tena Bar?

I have been consistent for the last 12 years in my statements about what is now known as the Western Flight Path.  And your recent admission that your sources, reportedly including FBI agents, told you the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side is just another factor that supports the Western Flight Path.

You need to get a good physics book and devour it.

[FLYJACK 654]

19 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, this is just more of your nonsense.  Your claim that I said Cooper "fell straight down" is laughable.  Are you also going to claim that the money bag came floating down the river, or maybe rolling on the bottom of it, and then crawled up the embankment at Tena Bar?

I have been consistent for the last 12 years in my statements about what is now known as the Western Flight Path.  And your recent admission that your sources, reportedly including FBI agents, told you the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side is just another factor that supports the Western Flight Path.

You need to get a good physics book and devour it.

The "FBI" flightpath has the plane passing on the west side of Portland and west of PDX...  

So, that is consistent and in no way supports the WFP.

I really don't think you have any argument whatsoever for your WFP theory.

[Robert99 37]

18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The "FBI" flightpath has the plane passing on the west side of Portland and west of PDX...  

So, that is consistent and in no way supports the WFP.

I really don't think you have any argument whatsoever for your WFP theory.

I have been to the Portland International Airport and it is not on the west side of Portland.

Himmelsbach's story about his helicopter ride was all on the west and southwest side of the Portland area.  Georger told me about 12 years ago that his sources related that the helicopter also went up to Woodland which is on the northwest side of the Portland area.  But Georger will probably deny that now.

[FLYJACK 654]

35 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

I have been to the Portland International Airport and it is not on the west side of Portland.

Himmelsbach's story about his helicopter ride was all on the west and southwest side of the Portland area.  Georger told me about 12 years ago that his sources related that the helicopter also went up to Woodland which is on the northwest side of the Portland area.  But Georger will probably deny that now.

Nobody ever said PDX was on the westside..

PDX is roughly in the middle of Portland on the North edge, the "FBI" flightpath goes on the west of PDX and the west side of Portland. There is no conflict here.

You keep making straw-man arguments.

Edited June 11, 2022 by FLYJACK