DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

The first mention of Cooper's demands in the pilot transcript says he wanted airstairs lowered inflight,,

When the fuel range problem and Reno was discussed they went back and forth between lowered on takeoff and inflight..

The initial airstairs lowered inflight is corroborated in the Harrison notes with a time mark..

During the negotiations for a refuelling airport the crew offered Los Angeles and SF, Cooper rejected them saying too large wants a small airport. Agreed to Reno.

So.

His initial plan was airstairs lowered inflight, that changed when Reno came into play.

He didn't want to refuel at a large airport,, why? if he was going to jump ASAP who cares.,, because he still hadn't decided to jump before refuelling.

 

My take,, his initial plan was to jump much further south but after Reno was agreed to he didn't want to be on the plane when it landed so he decided to jump ASAP... and have airstairs open on takeoff.. Cooper didn't jump anywhere near where he had initially planned.

The common claim that Cooper demanded Mexico as a ruse and jumped exactly where he planned just doesn't make sense and has no evidence.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Lead phosphate "in fluorescent lamps and cathode ray tubes".. GE patent

also cadmium

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/2476676.html

 

 

and this one

Alkaline earth halophosphate phosphors

"fluorescent lamps, cathode ray tube screens, or X-ray screens-or for two or more of these uses"

has bismuth, antimony, calcium, strontium, barium, lead phosphate

 

https://www.freepatentsonline.com/2488733.html

 

 

[georger 194]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The first mention of Cooper's demands in the pilot transcript says he wanted airstairs lowered inflight,,

When the fuel range problem and Reno was discussed they went back and forth between lowered on takeoff and inflight..

The initial airstairs lowered inflight is corroborated in the Harrison notes with a time mark..

During the negotiations for a refuelling airport the crew offered Los Angeles and SF, Cooper rejected them saying too large wants a small airport. Agreed to Reno.

So.

His initial plan was airstairs lowered inflight, that changed when Reno came into play.

He didn't want to refuel at a large airport,, why? if he was going to jump ASAP who cares.,, because he still hadn't decided to jump before refuelling.

 

My take,, his initial plan was to jump much further south but after Reno was agreed to he didn't want to be on the plane when it landed so he decided to jump ASAP... and have airstairs open on takeoff.. Cooper didn't jump anywhere near where he had initially planned.

The common claim that Cooper demanded Mexico as a ruse and jumped exactly where he planned just doesn't make sense and has no evidence.

 

Except that he jumped where he jumped! Taken at face value he jumped where he planned to jump. 

I admire people who can mind-meld with what Cooper thought or did not think et cetera ... and complicate what could very well be what he wanted to do. If he planned to jump much further south, where? If you somehow know that was his plan then where exactly and why ? 

The fact is questions like this may never get resolved for the very reason you cite: no evidence. So why invent a theory for which there is no evidence and may never be any evidence ... its guessing.  

Edited June 2, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

3 hours ago, georger said:

Except that he jumped where he jumped! Taken at face value he jumped where he planned to jump. 

I admire people who can mind-meld with what Cooper thought or did not think et cetera ... and complicate what could very well be what he wanted to do. If he planned to jump much further south, where? If you somehow know that was his plan then where exactly and why ? 

The fact is questions like this may never get resolved for the very reason you cite: no evidence. So why invent a theory for which there is no evidence and may never be any evidence ... its guessing.  

There is evidence, if you choose to ignore it that is your problem.

The evidence suggests he was going to be on the plane for the Reno refuel but decided to jump early, so South of Reno was his initial plan and probably South of the US border..

He did not jump where he initially planned, he changed his plan after Reno was in play wanted the airstairs down on takeoff and jumped early, even then he was delayed with problems opening the airstairs. His LZ was not the one he had planned when he got on the plane.

If your argument is that he jumped were he had planned when he got on the plane, you are ignoring the evidence and you are the one guessing.

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by FLYJACK

[Andrade1812 51]

My interpretation of that exchange is very different. Cooper appeared to reject any refueling spot that would allow the plane to fly over the coast. By picking Reno he forces the plane to stay over dry land and thus avoids a water landing.

Whether Cooper wanted to jump into Mexico at first, and then changed his mind because of the fuel stop, I can't say for certain. 

The getaway part of Norjak looks to me to be a product of very poor planning on Cooper's part.

[georger 194]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

There is evidence, if you choose to ignore it that is your problem.

The evidence suggests he was going to be on the plane for the Reno refuel but decided to jump early, so South of Reno was his initial plan and probably South of the US border..

He did not jump where he initially planned, he changed his plan after Reno was in play wanted the airstairs down on takeoff and jumped early, even then he was delayed with problems opening the airstairs. His LZ was not the one he had planned when he got on the plane.

If your argument is that he jumped were he had planned when he got on the plane, you are ignoring the evidence and you are the one guessing.

 

I cant read minds.

You keep saying you know what his plan was, the fact is he did what he did where he did.

Maybe there is a planet somewhere where the Cooper case is solved ?

[FLYJACK 654]

6 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

My interpretation of that exchange is very different. Cooper appeared to reject any refueling spot that would allow the plane to fly over the coast. By picking Reno he forces the plane to stay over dry land and thus avoids a water landing.

Whether Cooper wanted to jump into Mexico at first, and then changed his mind because of the fuel stop, I can't say for certain. 

The getaway part of Norjak looks to me to be a product of very poor planning on Cooper's part.

Not sure if we are talking about the same record of the exchange but he rejected the two airports for being too large,, smaller ones were offered and he accepted Reno. Even flying to Reno they could have gone over the water if they wanted, there really isn't that much difference. If his "plan" was to jump in the PNW it wouldn't matter which airport they chose. Apparently they had planned to refuel in Mazatlan.. 

There are other minor factors..

He was described as Latin/Mexican/swarthy in appearance..

Both Tina and the crew said US/American currency.

He wasn't dressed for the PNW weather.

and he was not concerned with the weather pre flight,, like all the other passengers.

My issue is people who claim his initial demand was a ruse,, that makes no sense and has no evidence,, Cooper must have believed it because it was certain to be rejected. Why make a demand you know is impossible, would be rejected and had to be renegotiated..

There is evidence to suggest this,,  the other views are pure speculation with no evidence at all.

[FLYJACK 654]

7 minutes ago, georger said:

I cant read minds.

You keep saying you know what his plan was, the fact is he did what he did where he did.

Maybe there is a planet somewhere where the Cooper case is solved ?

I am saying there is evidence to indicate his plan changed and he didn't jump where he initially intended.

Not sure why that is so hard to understand.

You want to stick to pure speculation that is up to you..

[Andrade1812 51]

At any time the crew could have flown over the ocean and they could have taken Coooper to any airport, he had no idea what was going on and he made no attempt to direct the flight after the Reno decision was made.

Which I believe says a lot about Cooper, and that he might not be the mastermind we thought he was.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Andrade1812

[georger 194]

49 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I am saying there is evidence to indicate his plan changed and he didn't jump where he initially intended.

Not sure why that is so hard to understand.

You want to stick to pure speculation that is up to you..

It is NOT pure speculation that he purchased a ticket in Portland and jumped in the State of Washington - it is FACT.

He also said it was the right plane in the right place at the right time.

You are entitled to your speculations, but please dont state your speculations or your alternate faux-facts as FACT!

Edited June 2, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

53 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

At any time the crew could have flown over the ocean and they could have taken Coooper to any airport, he had no idea what was going on and he made no attempt to direct the flight after the Reno decision was made.

Which I believe says a lot about Cooper, and that he might not be the mastermind we thought he was.

True,, but IMO he wasn't a mastermind but not a dummy..  

He "gave no flight direction/course" can be taken as he wasn't that smart but he may have had a compass though none was ever seen. He had some airplane/flight experience.. so it wouldn't surprise me.

[FLYJACK 654]

40 minutes ago, georger said:

It is NOT pure speculation that he purchased a ticket in Portland and jumped in the State of Washington - it is FACT.

He also said it was the right plane in the right place at the right time.

You are entitled to your speculations, but please dont state your speculations or your alternate faux-facts as FACT!

Those points are true and irrelevant to this issue, but you seem to claim without evidence that he jumped exactly where he had planned before he got on the plane. 

How do you know that. You don't.

I have outlined actual facts and drew a conclusion by inference.

You reject those facts to maintain baseless speculation.

 

At least, you should accept those facts and draw your own conclusion... but I can't see any other one.

Edited June 2, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 194]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Those points are true and irrelevant to this issue, but you seem to claim without evidence that he jumped exactly where he had planned before he got on the plane. 

How do you know that. You don't.

I have outlined actual facts and drew a conclusion by inference.

You reject those facts to maintain baseless speculation.

 

At least, you should accept those facts and draw your own conclusion... but I can't see any other one.

Your tea leaves and methods are different from mine, that's all. There does come a point where endless discussion/ viewpoints/opinions ceases to accomplish anything - I think that is exactly where the Cooper case is and sooner or later that will become abundantly clear to everyone. Angels that live on the head of a pin - how many and what are their names! (Does it matter when paying the heat bill! ?)  Or Cooper Philosophy 101:00

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Your tea leaves and methods are different from mine, that's all. There does come a point where endless discussion/ viewpoints/opinions ceases to accomplish anything - I think that is exactly where the Cooper case is and sooner or later that will become abundantly clear to everyone. Angels that live on the head of a pin - how many and what are their names! (Does it matter when paying the heat bill! ?)  Or Cooper Philosophy 101:00

You need to understand this case has very few 100% facts, try listing them to see, we don't even know Cooper jumped in Wa as a fact, you can cast doubt on almost anything in this case. That is why this case is so difficult and polarizing, so we use the evidence to draw inference. That is how you move a case like this along....  most of what we know about the case is by inference. The lure of the Cooper case is to use your own logic, reason, experience and historical knowledge to pull the few pieces together into a cohesive picture.. an intellectual puzzle with most of the pieces missing and some that don't belong.

It may appear to not accomplish anything but it does...   if Cooper changed his LZ mid hijacking then that tells us something. If Cooper's first demand was airstairs lowered inflight then his plan was not to land near Seattle as Ulis claims.

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

727 flaps..

 

BTW,, DC-9 had 15 degree flap setting

Edited June 3, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Last time for this..

The mentions in the FBI files of airstairs down on take-off are not incorrect they just neglect to include that it wasn't his first demand.

Cooper's very first demands,, first crew radio transmission.. aft stairs to be lowered after takeoff

 

Harrison notes corroborate (time).. aft stairs lowered inflight

and FBI summary.. HJ specified...  the aft stairs to be extended after take-off. Later specified that stairs must be fully extended before take-off.

 

Done.. Cooper changed his demand when they were negotiating a refuelling stop in the US.

[georger 194]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You need to understand this case has very few 100% facts, try listing them to see, we don't even know Cooper jumped in Wa as a fact, you can cast doubt on almost anything in this case. That is why this case is so difficult and polarizing, so we use the evidence to draw inference. That is how you move a case like this along....  most of what we know about the case is by inference. The lure of the Cooper case is to use your own logic, reason, experience and historical knowledge to pull the few pieces together into a cohesive picture.. an intellectual puzzle with most of the pieces missing and some that don't belong.

It may appear to not accomplish anything but it does...   if Cooper changed his LZ mid hijacking then that tells us something. If Cooper's first demand was airstairs lowered inflight then his plan was not to land near Seattle as Ulis claims.

 

Some of his money was found (landed) in Washington ... that is a fact. ............ but I get your point. I think in general you are correct about the process of investigation. ................................................

[FLYJACK 654]

Cooper said Mexico City and no stopping in the US for any reason but can refuel anywhere in Mexico. They had planned for Mazatlan.

In the dirty configuration they didn't have the range.. either Cooper didn't figure out the range correctly or his configuration was miscommunicated via Tina's note.

 

[georger 194]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper said Mexico City and no stopping in the US for any reason but can refuel anywhere in Mexico. They had planned for Mazatlan.

In the dirty configuration they didn't have the range.. either Cooper didn't figure out the range correctly or his configuration was miscommunicated via Tina's note.

 

yes, his failure to calculate the range/fuel is curious - not sure what it means. This should have been automatic/elementary for him ? 

[georger 194]

5 minutes ago, georger said:

yes, his failure to calculate the range/fuel is curious - not sure what it means. This should have been automatic/elementary for him ? 

Brand new subject. This is NOT an announcement but, several long time Cooper fans are rather serious about starting a brand new Cooper discussion forum. A stripped down version. Just discussions, only a few general threads, no Vault or large archive ....... something devoted to discussion(s). Rules of conduct "strictly" enforced. One of the people is a long time higher level school teacher who has years of experience handling people and discussions - I told him I would join if it happens. Well will see .................... it could fail the first week ............ who knows! Might be fun. Lets see what happens ....

Edited June 3, 2022 by georger

[CooperNWO305 146]

10 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Last time for this..

The mentions in the FBI files of airstairs down on take-off are not incorrect they just neglect to include that it wasn't his first demand.

Cooper's very first demands,, first crew radio transmission.. aft stairs to be lowered after takeoff

 

Harrison notes corroborate (time).. aft stairs lowered inflight

and FBI summary.. HJ specified...  the aft stairs to be extended after take-off. Later specified that stairs must be fully extended before take-off.

 

Done.. Cooper changed his demand when they were negotiating a refuelling stop in the US.

I'm with Flyjack on the air stairs, and I don't need to have Hahneman as a suspect to think this way, so no bias here.  Initial demands seem to be air stairs up, with aft door open, which makes total sense.  Cabin stays de-pressurized, plane can take off.  Somewhere along the line he decides he wants the stairs more easily accessible, so he says something along the lines of halfway down.  That makes total sense.  Leave the stairs unlocked, and hanging, but not touching the ground. This allows the aircraft to take off.  Air stairs locked down and hitting the ground just does not make any sense.

I would challenge someone to get all the documents relating to this exchange and post those.  Flyjack has posted the sequence of communications, so what out there trumps this?

Whether he jumped where he wanted or not is up to interpretation. I believe he jumped almost exactly where he wanted to.  Jumping in a city does not make sense to me, nor does jumping in the wilderness past Portland.  After that point he has no idea where the plane will be, except if it goes to Mexico City.  However, part of me thinks this guy had such a death wish that he just figured he could escape and evade from anywhere.

Flyjack is one of the few who actually post the relevant evidence (302's, book excerpts).  So who has the equivalent evidence that he wanted the stairs down at takeoff from the beginning?

Edited June 3, 2022 by CooperNWO305

[FLYJACK 654]

Another interesting exchange between the pilots and Cooper..

This is the second mention of the airstairs after Cooper was informed of the fuel range problem and they were negotiating a US airport.

Cooper wanted stew to manipulate stairs after plane airborne... then pilots try to tell Cooper how to lower after takeoff (they wanted Tina off the plane).. then pilots suggest to Cooper to let them lower stairs partially for takeoff.. they don't know if they can lock partially down.

That exchange seems to indicate that the pilots were the ones that initially brought up stairs lowered on takeoff when Cooper wanted lowered inflight..

It wasn't clear so the FBI (in the files) discussed asking Tina if the pilots suggested anything to Cooper but there is no answer in the files...

This exchange is not conclusive but it brings up the possibility that airstairs down for takeoff may have actually been instigated by the crew, then Cooper wanted it. 

The crew then had to convince Cooper to takeoff with airstairs up..

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 146]

The airstairs piece has been used to indicate Cooper knew a lot about the 727, but this info above seems to discredit that some.  There is mention that he knew where the oxygen bottles were on the plane too.  This to me is not that big of a secret, as I've seen oxygen bottles on planes many times.

Another piece mentioned is that Cooper knew the area because he knew McChord Air Force Base was a 20 minute drive from SEATAC.  But was it really a 20 minute drive? Straight line distance is about 24 miles, so even at 60 MPH it was 24 minutes, but in reality I'm guessing it was more like a 25-35 minute drive.  This is information easily obtained from a map.

Also, it is mentioned that he knew the area because he identified Tacoma from the air.  The only major city on the route from PDX to SEATAC was Tacoma.  The next closest city was 25 miles away (Olympia, much smaller) and there is no reason to think that the plane would circle Olympia (25 miles from the flight path and 25 miles from Tacoma).  Also, Tacoma's population in 1970 was 154,000 to Olympia's 23,000.  It would be hard to confuse Tacoma for Olympia.

How much effort was put in looking for someone from the Northwest who had intimate knowledge of the 727 when it could very well have been some guy from Kansas who had visited the area and studied up on the 727?

I give Cooper a lot of credit for having the guts to pull this off, and to have pulled it off, but I do not put him in the James Bond or Special Operations category.  I still see him as an average guy who got away with a crime.  He may have wanted to be James Bond, but he was not, except for a few hours on that night.

Edited June 3, 2022 by CooperNWO305

[FLYJACK 654]

Cooper's specific 727 knowledge is very mixed..

but he did know the airstairs can be lowered inflight.. either from experience or research.

he would have had to be very confident those stairs would open..  no assumptions..

[CooperNWO305 146]

44 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper's specific 727 knowledge is very mixed..

but he did know the airstairs can be lowered inflight.. either from experience or research.

he would have had to be very confident those stairs would open..  no assumptions..

Imagine the 727 is flying today and I go to a pilot, mechanic, stewardess, etc. and I ask "Is there any reason the aft stairs can not be opened in flight?"  They would say "There is a Cooper vane which makes it impossible."  But what would they have said to that question in 1971?  There really is no reason that the stairs could not be opened unless it was due to air pressure (which he planned for) or some locking mechanism somewhere, which we know there wasn't.  

It is really how one asks the question.  Question: Can the aft stairs be lowered in flight? Answer: Well, I don't know, I've never done it or seen it.  Or, Question: Is there any reason the aft stairs can not be lowered in flight? Answer: No, not really. There is no reason.

I agree that he would not want to just assume on this one, but if he could not test it in flight, then the best guess would be that there is no reason the stairs can't be lowered in flight.  

I thought of something else in terms of picking Seattle.  Proximity to a military base for the parachutes.  If he assumed the chutes would come from a military base, then he would have wanted an airport near a base.  That rules out a lot of other airports.

Edited June 3, 2022 by CooperNWO305