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quade

DB Cooper

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On 11/23/2021 at 1:34 PM, georger said:

That is interesting - and new. Who they communicate their info to ?

There is no documentation to support Ammerman's statement about A-7s from Oakland.  Instead, the hijacked airliner was trailed by a C-130 from some point north of the location where the switch from Seattle ATC to Oakland ATC was made in northern California until it landed in Reno. 

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7 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Wrong Judy, and it wasn't a real estate developer. One of the people involved with this book is a Facebook friend. There never WAS a $200,000 treasure anyway. It was based on sales of the book, and the one thing the author forgot is that if you have no marketing plan, and you use the name of a wanted criminal...

Makes it hard to do book appearances and book signings. A few copies sold here and there. MOST of the copies went out over a number of years through Dona Elliot. She was selling the book between 1984-2012. She would charge six bucks a copy, and was getting them for four. When I bought my eight copies total in 2012 she didn't have very many remaining. 

I have two really good condition copies remaining, both wrapped well and sealed in ziplocs. If I were to sell the one extra I have...five hundred bucks and not a cent less. I am pretty sure I will have two copies for...well....EVER. ^_^

I bought a copy of the Ha-Ha-Ha book from Dona at Ariel, I am looking at it right now.  Never took it all that seriously. I talked with you Robert about the book.  I recall you encouraged  me to buy a copy, and I did.  Has anyone actually read it? MeyerLouie

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6 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Flyjack and I agree with this assessment, and yes...probably 12-13 or whenever that pressure bump happened and when Rataczak radioed, "I think (the hijacker) has taken leave of us..." (paraphrased, but close) I also believe the store break in near the RR tracks was probably done by Cooper. (Cigarettes and beef jerky were taken, and the trains went by there too fast for it to be just a hobo.) 

I have a request in to someone who knows, asking if they are willing to tell me the name of the author of the Ha Ha Ha book. I suggested that after 38 years....etc. 

I was only kidding about the $500 on the book. Truth is I am keeping both copies. I don't really need the money and it is part of my collection of books on different hijackings. One of my favorites is THIS ONE by the late Anthony Bryant. I notice they keep jacking up the prices on the hijack-type books though. I see at Amazon it is no longer six bucks, but nearly 40 dollars. 

The picture below shows a large collection (I have most of them and some others not shown) that were owned by Bryan Woodruff at the Ariel Store. And one of the two books Geoff Gray and I co-signed when we met in Seattle. The other one is Blast. 

SkyjackInterior.jpg.dc91dd4fe78073e9c79d62005cc96c51.jpg

BooksOnCooper.jpg.7d508def5fdbfcf9ce4bd8fb988587bd.jpg

Lots of Cooper books out there. This is maybe half of them I think. I do not have the 'Living Well' book with the black cover, or the two to the far left in the middle row. Others I think I do. I have decided to bring all my Cooper memorabilia for the July event next year, including the books. 

The short version of how I think Cooper made his getaway is pretty simple. I think he came down in the area the FBI thinks he did. I believe that the Amboy Chute, the one discovered in 2008 without its harness or container attached was probably buried by Cooper. (Just insert the word 'probably' or 'maybe' into some of this stuff.)

Then...he used the backpack container for the chute to transfer the money from the briefcase so he wouldn't look like a guy carrying a bank bag full of money...

I also think he jumped further south than he wanted to, because it took him longer to prepare to jump, wrap the money bag, etc and that he wanted to jump more like south of Olympia. (See map below and just imagine Cooper could have been anyone from the Puget Sound area, not necessarily KC)

JumpMap1.jpg.ae651d08fa798a93160335b488e63bf8.jpg

After he transferred the money to the backpack and rid himself of the chute, (ditched the briefcase and paper bag before he jumped, so it would land further north and if found...possibly throw off the ground search.)

Then...he headed south across the Heisson bridge and caught the tracks toward Portland. Day or night it is easy in that area to figure out direction. Mountains on one side, that is EAST. There you go. 

When he sees the store and because it is Thanksgiving in the very early morning, maybe around midnight, he knocks at the door. (In those days sometimes the owners actually LIVED in back of the store.)

No one answers. Few if any neighbors back then. He forces the door, takes the smokes, the jerky, and the gloves which were all reported stolen. FBI in their infinite wisdom, investigates the break in but doesn't ask WHAT BRAND of cigarettes were stolen. (Duh)

Makes his way south along the tracks. Reaches the Vancouver area, probably in the early morning. Just looks like a guy with a backpack and no one is looking for him in town anyway. Makes a phone call from a pay phone, which were everywhere back in 1971. 

It's just a theory. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The book on the lower right, written by the former FBI agent...it's been so long since I've been around, I forgot his name and the name of the book. You won't believe this, in the1980s I actually wrote to the guy and requested a copy of the book.  He sent me back an autographed copy, and I lost it!  I moved so many times in my college years, I think it got chucked, regrettably.  I would like to get another copy of the book.  Meyer

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8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

You have seen the NB8 chute, the one Cooper jumped with...open and on the ground for examination? Only Cossey knows that. When I interviewed the owner, Norman Hayden, he said he bought that chute about three years before the hijacking, and it was already old THEN when he did. He also said he didn't care because he had not the slightest intention ever of using it. He said he would go down with his sport plane no matter what and trust his flying skills, rather than a chute. 

The only reason he bought those chutes was to comply with the new FAA rules on sport flying. But he was totally against wearing or using one. 

How do you know Cossey correctly identified the missing chute as his modified NB6/8...  

Cossey initially misidentified the missing chute and then lied for years with shifting stories to cover it up. Cossey never provided his records and there is nothing to corroborate Cossey's claim.

You admitted Cossey was a liar.. and believed Hayden. Well, Hayden claimed his two chutes were identical.

But, the clincher is that there were two back chute packing cards found in the plane, both packed by Cossey May 21,1971. Both Pioneer's, SN 226 card and chute was returned to Hayden but a card 1960 SN 60-9707 found on the plane was missing its chute.. 

Cooper must have used that missing chute, a Pioneer 1960 Steinthal SN 60-9707,, that does not match the 1946 Amboy chute.

Cooper did not use Cossey's customized NB6/8. I believe he thought they were going to take his back chute from Issaquah but they didn't need it after securing Hayden's chutes and only grabbed the two chest chutes. He initially made an error based on an assumption, then he never corrected it and covered it up with shifting lies.

I already explained all this here in this forum with the evidence, but you have an irritating ability to just ignore things that don't fit your preset narratives.

Time for you to delete all your Amboy chute stories.

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18 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I'm not deleting a thing. 

Yes? Where exactly did he say that? I interviewed the guy for hours over two days. He never told me any such thing. He agreed that the report on the chutes by FBI agent John Detlor was CORRECT...and then posted that report in a frame in his office in Kent, WA. Here is the report again. Take a good look at it. Hayden has NEVER said both chutes were identical. 

Ever tried actually interviewing people in all your research? Just wondering... 

HaydenCosseyFBIExcerpt3.thumb.jpg.e923ebc9e7e7e93d1da39d5c176a74a0.jpg

Two back chutes. Provided by Hayden. One good reserve, one phony reserve. Picked up by the WA State Patrol from Linn Emerick at Sky Sports. 

One GOOD reserve found on the jet. Popped for its paracord. One phony reserve...missing and presumed tossed out the back. 

One BACK chute from Hayden, recovered on the jet, later returned to him, now sitting in the WA State History Museum. There is the picture below. The final BACK chute...used by Cooper. 

This is not rocket science, Flyjack. It isn't even TOY rocket science. Cossey was sitting at home when the State Patrol came by Sky Sports for the two reserves. He had nothing to do with who got what. The four chutes have been well documented. The extra packing card I couldn't say, but maybe someone stuck the wrong card into somewhere. But no one has ever confirmed that FIVE parachutes were actually given to Cooper. All the evidence says FOUR. And all of them are present or accounted for. 

cooperchutetacoma.jpg.38aec741bf3636a942aa45a9a64eae23.jpg

Blevins, you are completely clueless, I am not going to explain this to you.

You are making patronizing and belittling claims above that are not in dispute because you do not comprehend the issue. You have no idea what is going on.

This is why you irritate people.

I have covered all this here before. I am not going to unwind your confusion for you.

The Amboy chute was not Cooper's.. Cossey was wrong initially and later lied about Cooper using his custom NC6/8. A card,, a Pioneer with a 1960 Steinthal SN 60-9707 packed by Cossey on May 21,1971 was found on the plane without its chute... Cooper must have used that chute, not Cossey's NB6/8.

 

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32 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I am not belittling you. But all the official reports, all the testimony, say that only FOUR chutes were delivered to SeaTac and only FOUR chutes given to Cooper. 

Whether the Amboy chute was actually from Cooper, I cannot say for sure. But I find it suspicious that the FBI would dismiss it with the media as not being from Cooper...and then tell people for years afterward who still inquired about it...that it was 'evidence in an ongoing case'. 

You have a packing card. There could have been more than one stuffed into one of the chutes given to Cooper. By mistake. Perhaps.

But that doesn't mean MORE than four were actually delivered. 

I am not claiming more than four chutes were delivered here.. Do you understand that you keep making arguments that are not relevant here and demonstrate that you actually do not grasp this.

Two back chute packing cards were found on the plane one was missing its chute, both Pioneers packed by Cossey May 21.1971..  those were both of Hayden's chutes sent to the plane.

Cossey was a serial liar, there is no corroboration to his claim that the missing chute was his custom NB6/8.. Cossey initially erred assuming his NB6/8 was grabbed from Issaquah, it was not. He soon learned of his error and lied to cover it up..

So, yes, you need to delete your Amboy chute claims.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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10 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Wrong packing card somewhere or not...I choose to believe Norman Hayden when he said the FBI report on the chutes was perfectly accurate. The chutes he purchased were not the same. He knew which ones, which types, he bought. 

Tom Kaye's team has a standing offer to be allowed to examine the Amboy chute. They were refused, even though they were allowed to examine the other evidence. 

"It (Amboy chute) is the right size, the right color, and found in the right place..." (Seattle FBI to media)

A few days later: "We have determined the parachute was not Cooper's by a preponderance of the evidence..."

When asked WHAT evidence...no answer ever given. 

Their comments until mid-2016 when they closed the case, about the chute, if you inquired:  "It (Amboy chute) is evidence in an ongoing case..."

Really? 

Why don't you create a video and send it on to me for next July. I promise we will show it. 

Blevins, you are wrong Hayden said the chutes were identical and he disputed the FBI descriptions.. even the FBI descriptions are inconsistent.

Now, you dismiss the packing cards.. which corroborate Hayden's claims and you believe Cossey, a serial liar.

Those two Pioneer packing cards are Hayden's two chutes.. you can't have it both ways, both of Hayden's Pioneer back chute cards found in the plane and Cooper using Cossey's custom NB6/8.

You are incapable of seeing what is right in front of you because you have to maintain a narrative. As the evidence emerges the conclusion changes,, you hold a conclusion and dismiss the evidence. You have your logic backasswards.

Edited by FLYJACK

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Fly. Given what you know, do you think Cooper made a calculated decision on which chute to use? Were they different enough from eachother?

Can I mute someone on here using iphone or do I need to be on a desktop? Robert you continue to clog up this site. I wish people would just report your posts as spam. You have some good posts once in a while, but I just can’t sift through the chaff. 

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10 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Fly. Given what you know, do you think Cooper made a calculated decision on which chute to use? Were they different enough from eachother?

Can I mute someone on here using iphone or do I need to be on a desktop? Robert you continue to clog up this site. I wish people would just report your posts as spam. You have some good posts once in a while, but I just can’t sift through the chaff. 

There are reports that Cooper inspected the chutes,, Tosaw said he pulled the cards, that isn't confirmed in FBI files but likely since the two cards were found.

The chutes were both Pioneers, one a 1957 returned to Hayden and one a 1960,, the 1960 is missing so it may be that he just chose the newer one. 

Edited by FLYJACK

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4 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

You can do the mute thing right here anytime you wish. But 99% of the people who read these posts we make do not make their own posts. They just read them. 

Yes...I believe Cooper made a calculated decision on which chute to use. Mucklow said that when he started putting on that NB-6 that he looked like he knew exactly what he was doing. Which tells me Cooper almost certainly had experience using a military chute. When 377 demonstrated his NB-6/8 for the crowd at the first Cooper Con, the one held by Geoff Gray, he also invited people to try putting it on. Almost no one could do it, or if they did, they did it improperly. Ask him yourself. Obviously, Cooper knew what he was doing. 

Yes. He knew what he was doing. My question is whether the two chutes were so different that him picking one would give us any more indication of who he was. The early belief was he did not pick the more civilian type chute, indicating that he was not a skydiver. Now that Fly has opened up a new line of discussion, I wanted to know what FLYJACK thinks, that is why I asked FLYJACK the question. 

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Just now, RobertMBlevins said:

I don't care WHO you asked. This is a public forum. So I gave you MY answer. Flyjack is perfectly fine with me to give HIS as well. If you don't want to see responses to questions from multiple users...you shouldn't be asking. This isn't email. 

You didn't even answer the question,, and clog up the forum.

The chutes were both Pioneers, a '57 and a '60, probably different colours but the only real difference was the manufacturing date,, he may have just picked the newer one, the 1960.

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12 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

NO. You have this: A packing card. It could be an extra one that someone mistakenly placed into one of the chutes. You do not know. 

Hayden, the original owner and purchaser of the two backpack chutes given to Cooper....says that the John Detlor report is accurate. We have Detlor subbing this report, and we have Hayden verifying it. The owner. The honest guy who donated a chute he could have sold for a boatload of money to the WA State History Museum instead. 

I believe HAYDEN. 

Not NO,, YES there were two packing cards found on the plane that match Hayden's description of the chutes.

You are very confused. The Detlor report does not conflict, as you keep claiming.

This is why people get irritated, lose patience and want to block you...

You are mentally stuck in your own narrative and cannot accept your own inconsistencies.

Hayden rejected Cossey's parachute claims, you claim to believe Hayden not the liar Cossey.. but your conclusion is the opposite, you have accepted Cossey's claim of the NB6/8 with no corroberation and reject Hayden and the packing card evidence found on the plane.

Blevins, you are confused and just not a serious thinker.

Hayden never claimed his chute was an NB6/8..

Edited by FLYJACK

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8 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

The Vanished guys believe Cooper was Ted Braden. I don't know much about Braden, just what I have heard. Probably as good a suspect as any other, I suppose. 

How many times do I have to keep posting up the FBI's report on the chutes for you? That was like number six or seven in the last year. They are NOT the same chutes. The FBI says so. And so does Norman Hayden. 

The 'claims' you refer to on Cossey/Hayden have to do with both of them claiming the one remaining unopened chute was theirs. And wanting it returned.

The FBI knew who it belonged to, so when Hayden had that lawyer send the FBI a letter asking them to return that chute to him...they did. 

Blevins, 

You have no idea what is going on...  stuck in 2011.

You are so confused I can only laugh..

Edited by FLYJACK

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12 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Wrong Judy, and it wasn't a real estate developer. One of the people involved with this book is a Facebook friend. There never WAS a $200,000 treasure anyway. It was based on sales of the book, and the one thing the author forgot is that if you have no marketing plan, and you use the name of a wanted criminal.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. 

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20 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I know the parachute sitting in the WA State History Museum isn't exactly the same as an NB6. I can tell you that. 

You have THAT one, which the Detlor report describes perfectly, right down to the color of the backpack. 

And then you have your typical NB6 rig, which if you look at the pictures closely, will see it has some small differences and a different color as well.

Just like the Detlor report describes the other one that came from Hayden. 

HaydenCosseyFBIExcerpt.thumb.jpg.6808183b465785969098137467fcc875.jpg

Blevins,,

You do realize that Cossey claimed his NB6/8 used by Cooper was Sage Green nylon container and Sage Green harness.. that conflicts with the Detlor description and many references in the FBI files.

All references to an NB6/8 green nylon container / green harness come ONLY from Cossey. ZERO corroboration.

Cossey was wrong about Cooper using (his) NB6/8...

You actually believe Cossey and Reject Hayden and the evidence.

Cooper used Hayden's olive drab / tan cotton harness Pioneer. Confirmed by the packing card found on the plane.

chuteolivedrab1126.jpeg.9b24db896709b1d9bef115ac31723356.jpeg

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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OK, I just figured out where Blevins has got this completely wrong..

Initially, all four chutes were to come from Issaquah, but they secured the two backs from Hayden and only needed the two chest chutes from Issaquah..

But, Cossey was not aware of that initially.. He thought the backs also came from Issaquah including his custom NB6/8 Sage green nylon container/sage green harness.

He was contacted by the FBI and informed that a Pioneer was left on the plane so he assumed the other was his Sage Green NB 6/8.. So, he described that chute to the FBI. In error.

Cossey's description conflicts with all the other chute descriptions in the FBI docs.

Cossey was made aware of Hayden and must have soon figured out that he made an error and got the chute wrong.. Instead of correcting his mistake he kept telling shifting lies to cover it up.

He never gave the FBI his records.. and told obvious lies about the chute.

Only two back chutes were sent to the plane.. Hayden's.

Hayden's chutes were the two Pioneers matching the two packing cards found on the plane. The 1957 SN 226 was returned to him and the Pioneer 1960 SN 60-9707 is missing,, Cooper must have taken that chute, Hayden's.

NOT Cossey's custom NB6/8. Cooper did not jump with the NB6/8 described by Cossey.

 

Hayden never claimed or confirmed his chute used by Cooper was an NB6/8 sage green nylon container/sage green harness as Cossey claimed. 

Edited by FLYJACK

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54 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Why the hell should I do something dumb like that? Have you even READ the 54 page report on KC and company that was released to the public? The one to the Seattle FBI also included every file we had, every picture we took, and every recording we did during an active investigation that lasted well over a year. You must be joking. 

You? Nobody even knows anything about you. There is no website for you. No identity. Just claims. As far as anyone knows, you could just be some really smart junior college kid from Ottawa. Our stuff, my stuff, Skipp's stuff...all the videos at YouTube...out there for the public to decide for themselves. Our names are on all of it. And whether you like it or not, accept it or not, a lot of people believe what we tell them about Christiansen and his friends.

And what we tell them is that quite a bit of what we discovered points toward Christiansen as possibly being Cooper, and that Bernie Geestman, if he was involved, was most likely the instigator of the whole thing. 

You? You are probably a nice guy. And a completely unknown quantity. 

You ignore the obvious. Hayden has seen the report by Agent Detlor. Hayden has CONFIRMED it is completely accurate. He bought the chutes. He owned them. He did a rental agreement with NWA for them the evening of the hijacking. He even had one of them returned to him by the FBI. I guess he should know. 

Good enough for me.  

Where does it say in the Detlor report that Cooper used Cossey's sage green NB6/8?

I'll save us the time,, it doesn't.

You are claiming it is evidence that proves your conclusion, it doesn't. It proves that Cossey's description was wrong. You seem to be unaware of that.

So, the Detlor report proves you are wrong. 

But in your confused backasswords world you claim it is evidence to support your position.

Really crazy stuff. 

I guess you'll never understand the evidence.

Cooper used Hayden's back chute an olive drab Pioneer with tan cotton harness, Steinthal canopy 1960 SN 60-9707 packed by Cossey May 21,1971..

Cooper did not use Cossey's sage green nylon container. sage green harness NB6/8. Hayden never confirmed that, the Detlor report does not confirm that. The only source for that is Cossey's claim repeated in the FBI files.

You are just making up a conclusion without any evidence and the evidence contradicts it.

 

That is exactly how your Kenneth Christiansen narrative is constructed, layers of speculation, exaggeration, embellishments and opinions combined with a denial of real evidence.

The people attracted to KC are naive and new to the case, he was not Cooper. 

Not because I think so but because the evidence says so.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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22 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

You think everyone who leans toward the idea that KC and Geestman pulled off the hijacking is either new to the case, or just naive?

Assuming people are generally stupid is never a good idea. There are no embellishments or exaggeration regarding our investigation into those guys. We just presented what we had. There was no need to embellish anything. 

Hayden saw the FBI report. Hayden said it was perfectly accurate. But just for the sake of argument, let's say the NB6 was actually the other chute. 

It doesn't matter one bit, except in relation to the Amboy chute perhaps. And it doesn't prove anything at all regarding the guilt or innocence of Christiansen. In fact, in the long scheme of things, it is comparing one apple to another. 

You know, instead of making blanket statements on guilt or innocence, or claiming we embellished things regarding the investigation into KC, Geestman, and other folks....maybe you should present something, anything, that proves what you said about Hahneman's military service...supposedly provided to you by the FBI. You can't even put him on the west coast of the USA around the time of the hijacking. 

That was entire argument that you have had wrong from the get go, the chute Cooper took was a Pioneer with SN 60-9707 year 1960 and that doesn't match the Amboy chute markings..

Cossey was wrong, he identified the wrong chute, an NB6/8 sage green chute.

Yes, you are wrong.. yes, delete your Amboy chute stories..

 

So, that was painful.. unwinding your misunderstanding for a simple and obvious issue. Imagine going over thousands of documents,, YIKES

And even after showing you your error you will continue to think Cooper took Cossey's sage green NB6/8 and continue claim the Detlor report proves something that it doesn't..

You throw out a strawman lie claiming I called people stupid... of course I didn't say that, they are new to the case and naive.

This case is very complicated with a lot of misinformation and disinformation.. you contribute to that.

You wonder why people don't like you.

 

Now, admit KC was not Cooper, he wasn't swarthy or olive, he didn't have full curly/wavy/marceled hair.. he did not even resemble Sketch B.. in fact there is nothing that supports KC as Cooper. He was investigated by the FBI and according to you that is enough to eliminate a suspect.

Even Ulis finally admitted it after claiming 98% certainty,, time for you Blevins..

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Quote

Witness descriptions are notoriously unreliable. 

I think this is a little disingenuous to say in context. The Cooper case is an outlier compared to your standard case where witness descriptions are involved and relied upon, he wasn't seen in a brief flash during an attack or something, he was observed up-close by the flight attendants and passengers, some even spent hours with him (Tina) and others took physical notes on his appearance (Flo).

Edited by Coopericane

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