DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

They don't say how they did it but it was an estimate of 280.

I don't think it would be very hard at all. You can use bill SN's in the 12 piles to match the original micro sequence. With that original list if the bill SN's fall within a range of 100 (x3) that means three packets in the original order. Not hard to do but they never disclosed how they did it..

Okay. So you think the process on the recordak was:

1) Unstrap the bills (assuming they were strapped before recording)

2) run each bill thru the recordak

3) stack the bills in the same order they went thru the recordak

4) re-strap the bills without shifting any

 

That makes sense. If so, then yes, the FBI should have the original ordered list on the recordak. 

But if they were able to determine "found in same order" on the day the Ingram reported (or within 48 hours or so)...how come a printed list isn't available of that order? Did they look at the recordak to verify? Unlikely?

Edited September 6, 2021 by snowmman

[snowmman 3]

14 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

They don't say how they did it but it was an estimate of 280.

I don't think it would be very hard at all. You can use bill SN's in the 12 piles to match the original micro sequence. With that original list if the bill SN's fall within a range of 100 (x3) that means three packets in the original order. Not hard to do but they never disclosed how they did it..

yes if they had the list of the original order, and they compared just the top and bottom serials that they had (they might have to look down or up in their individual packet list, if some "top"  or "bottom" bills had disappeared...

then they could be certain of the number of bills probably found.

But if they only had top bill serial numbers (visible from tena bar bundles) then they would only be able to determine number of unique packets. Not total number of bills found (since some bottom bills could have disappeared)

They would have to pry a bottom bill off each packet, to get the bottom bill serial, to make a determination as to # of bills in that clump (comparing to recordak)

Edited September 6, 2021 by snowmman

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, snowmman said:

Okay. So you think the process on the recordak was:

1) Unstrap the bills (assuming they were strapped before recording)

2) run each bill thru the recordak

3) stack the bills in the same order they went thru the recordak

4) re-strap the bills without shifting any

 

That makes sense. If so, then yes, the FBI should have the original ordered list on the recordak. 

But if they were able to determine "found in same order" on the day the Ingram reported (or within 48 hours or so)...how come a printed list isn't available of that order? Did they look at the recordak to verify? Unlikely?

The Recordak has to be in the correct the order based on the bank instructions to deduct between the start/stop.. if it wasn't there would be no way to use the start/stop numbers.

The FBI must have the original bill order prior to sorting and to claim the bills were in the same order as given to Cooper.

We don't have direct evidence but it is implied.

 

In this case they only filmed the front half of bill.

[FLYJACK 654]

57 minutes ago, snowmman said:

yes if they had the list of the original order, and they compared just the top and bottom serials that they had (they might have to look down or up in their individual packet list, if some "top"  or "bottom" bills had disappeared...

then they could be certain of the number of bills probably found.

But if they only had top bill serial numbers (visible from tena bar bundles) then they would only be able to determine number of unique packets. Not total number of bills found (since some bottom bills could have disappeared)

They would have to pry a bottom bill off each packet, to get the bottom bill serial, to make a determination as to # of bills in that clump (comparing to recordak)

They couldn't get the number exact,, the 280 bill count was an estimate.

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by FLYJACK

[snowmman 3]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

They couldn't get the number exact,, the 280 bill count was an estimate.

Sure

But why say 280? Why not 210?

280 seems like a poor estimate (20 less than 300)

We both agree there's no record of why they said 280. I'm just saying the 280 could be way off.

[snowmman 3]

3 minutes ago, snowmman said:

Sure

But why say 280? Why not 210?

280 seems like a poor estimate (20 less than 300)

We both agree there's no record of why they said 280. I'm just saying the 280 could be way off.

In fact if it was really 280, that's amazing.

only 20 bills lost from top and bottom of packets? were the lost 20 equally distributed among 3 packets..?

like was 7-10 bills lost per packet or ??

that is interesting if true. Why wouldn't more be lost? And depending on whether they were lost from top or bottom, might be interesting. I would think random processes might cause top and bottom to lose bills equally. But maybe not, if say just one side was more exposed to weathering.

Edited September 6, 2021 by snowmman

[FLYJACK 654]

8 minutes ago, snowmman said:

In fact if it was really 280, that's amazing.

only 20 bills lost from top and bottom of packets? were the lost 20 equally distributed among 3 packets..?

like was 7-10 bills lost per packet or ??

that is interesting if true. Why wouldn't more be lost? And depending on whether they were lost from top or bottom, might be interesting. I would think random processes might cause top and bottom to lose bills equally. But maybe not, if say just one side was more exposed to weathering.

Well, it was just an estimate, too many pieces and frags, look at the images of the 12 piles and make a guess, they aren't all the same size.

100 bills is just less than 0.5 inches thick..

They probably tried to separate them first and like many things in this case we are left with more questions..

But, if there were missing bills then there weren't rubber bands around all the packets..

I recall reading somewhere, Tosaw maybe? that 2 packets were complete and one was short.  Nothing official though..

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Snow,,

You are all over the place, I went over much of this stuff before..

I already passed on the potential for print and fluorescent powders on the tie to Tom Kaye..

Lycopodium Clavatum was used to lubricate latex gloves..

First, the Heisson store break in was never confirmed to be the Heisson store, it is about the right location and was the area store at the time.. so likely but not 100%.

Tina said Cooper's shoes were ankle high and laceless, not loafers, those french jump boots have laces..

There was a "commando sole" available on many boots at the time including laceless ones.

 

The store break in fits Cooper well, right area, right time, right stuff stolen... right along the rail tracks.

[snowmman 3]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

But, if there were missing bills then there weren't rubber bands around all the packets..

That's a good point.

How do the rubber band people resolve "rubber bands stuck to center of 2 packets" and 280 bills

Did 2 packets have 100 bills, and one had 80?

Edited September 6, 2021 by snowmman

[snowmman 3]

34 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The store break in fits Cooper well, right area, right time, right stuff stolen... right along the rail tracks.

I'm really amazed at what was reported stolen.

And guessing, by what wasn't stolen.

No liquor was stolen? If I was FBI or LE, I would have looked for clues like that, for guessing who broke in. Kids, homeless, etc.

And in 1971, I don't think it would be common for homeless to be wearing "military" footgear.

too bad they didn't do a cast of the footprint back then.

Amazing there's no more detail about the investigation (or non-investigation) of this break-in.

Edited September 6, 2021 by snowmman

[snowmman 3]

In terms of "being all over the place"

Of course.

It's just the internet. There's no job or official investigation. Just random people posting random stuff.

There's no "protocol" or need to be focused on anything, really.

It's just social media. Very few fules.

I'm surprised I can post here. Quade said I was banned for life. Is Quade still moderating?

Who's in charge here! I need to be banned! for violating the rules!

[FLYJACK 654]

13 minutes ago, snowmman said:

In terms of "being all over the place"

Of course.

It's just the internet. There's no job or official investigation. Just random people posting random stuff.

There's no "protocol" or need to be focused on anything, really.

It's just social media. Very few fules.

I'm surprised I can post here. Quade said I was banned for life. Is Quade still moderating?

Who's in charge here! I need to be banned! for violating the rules!

I don't mean it negatively,, I already went over the recent stuff you have been posting when you were away and got very little response so it is good to see you are now discovering these things as well...

[snowmman 3]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't mean it negatively,, I already went over the recent stuff you have been posting when you were away and got very little response so it is good to see you are now discovering these things as well...

Yes I don't really use the dropzone.com search. It seems more cumbersome then it used to be. 

Also, google search doesn't seem to hit dropzone.com well. I wonder if they tell google not to crawl these pages. 

[FLYJACK 654]

On 3/25/2020 at 5:47 AM, FLYJACK said:

The description was slipons, no laces, but they might not have been, some have really high laces and look like slipons, there was also a low ankle boot with no laces.

Those soles were called commando soles... they began in the 1940's.

Many different shoes had them or copied them.. I had a pair of Doc Martins in the 1980's that had the commando soles but looked like dress shoes..

There were many like this.. a low ankle boot, no laces and commando sole. Would look like a slipon...

If Cooper was jumping an ankle boot similar to this makes the most sense. IMO.

 

I found vintage loafers with commando sole..

 

"Commando sole" boots..

[dudeman17 267]

On 9/5/2021 at 6:11 AM, FLYJACK said:

There are reports that they requested both front and back from Issaquah but the backs weren't needed as they secured them from Hayden.

-------

Cossey initially believed that his back chutes were taken from Issaquah, they weren't. He was told a Pioneer was left behind and he described his other chute as the custom NB6/8.

-------

In the FBI files, it does claim that Cossey owned the back chutes...

-------

Cossey claimed they were his back chutes

-------

Cossey was initially mistaken then lied to cover up his error.

-------

FBI agent Larry Carr interviewed Cossey around June of 2008 and he believed the back chutes came from Cossey's home.

 

 

There is either something missing here or it shows a complete lack of adequate communication within the FBI.

If they did not take any of Cossey's back rigs that night, then every FBI agent should have known that from the start. So any description of those rigs should have been met with 'no, we didn't take those'.

Cossey should have known that immediately or soon thereafter. I can't imagine that Emrich wouldn't have called him and told him as soon as the cops left the dz that night. But even if Emrich didn't, Cossey should have known within a day or two either by talking with Emrich or going to the dz and seeing that none of his rigs were missing.

So why would the FBI either ask for or accept any descriptions involving Cossey's rigs?

-------

Here's a thing - If the only back rigs in play were Hayden's, then it might not be possible to know what color the canopies were.

Hayden may not know. He never actually used them (jumped / opened), so he only handled and saw them in their packed condition. Unless he asked out of his own curiosity, he wouldn't know as he likely never saw the canopies.

Cossey might likely not remember. If he took care of all the student gear at the dz, and he packed reserves for several jumpers, and he took care of several pilot rigs, both ones brought to his loft and ones sent by that store where Hayden bought his, then it might be a bit much for him to remember details (color) of all the rigs he handled. And it might not be in his records. His rigger's logs would contain the same info as the cards - make, model, serial numbers, and whatever it was he did to them, i.e. standard repack or any repairs or component replacements. In that context, canopy color would be incidental.

[FLYJACK 654]

2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

 

There is either something missing here or it shows a complete lack of adequate communication within the FBI.

If they did not take any of Cossey's back rigs that night, then every FBI agent should have known that from the start. So any description of those rigs should have been met with 'no, we didn't take those'.

Cossey should have known that immediately or soon thereafter. I can't imagine that Emrich wouldn't have called him and told him as soon as the cops left the dz that night. But even if Emrich didn't, Cossey should have known within a day or two either by talking with Emrich or going to the dz and seeing that none of his rigs were missing.

So why would the FBI either ask for or accept any descriptions involving Cossey's rigs?

-------

Here's a thing - If the only back rigs in play were Hayden's, then it might not be possible to know what color the canopies were.

Hayden may not know. He never actually used them (jumped / opened), so he only handled and saw them in their packed condition. Unless he asked out of his own curiosity, he wouldn't know as he likely never saw the canopies.

Cossey might likely not remember. If he took care of all the student gear at the dz, and he packed reserves for several jumpers, and he took care of several pilot rigs, both ones brought to his loft and ones sent by that store where Hayden bought his, then it might be a bit much for him to remember details (color) of all the rigs he handled. And it might not be in his records. His rigger's logs would contain the same info as the cards - make, model, serial numbers, and whatever it was he did to them, i.e. standard repack or any repairs or component replacements. In that context, canopy color would be incidental.

IMO, it was a bit of a "who's on first" fiasco.

Cossey packed them, claimed he owned them and could ID them so agents assumed he was the go to guy, nobody in the bureaucracy caught the inconsistencies.

Hayden said the FBI didn't talk to him and he never looked inside the chutes.. that is why the orange and white chute in the river near Heisson is in play.

It appears everyone accepted Cossey's initial error and ran with it. Cossey must have figured it out within days but instead of setting it straight he engaged in a series of shifting lies for years.

Emrich confirmed only the two front reserves were sent from Issaquah.

Cossey never acknowledged Hayden, ever. When he claimed they were his, he doesn't mean they were sold to Hayden. Hayden had SN 226 returned and was paid for the use of the chutes. No indication Cossey was paid and Cossey even claimed the chute left behind was returned to him. Hayden read Cossey's statements about the chutes in the newspapers and thought they were lies.

This error may have undermined the entire case.

 

[Coopericane 44]

4 hours ago, snowmman said:

Amazing there's no more detail about the investigation (or non-investigation) of this break-in.

The information about the Heisson break-in first emerged in the 302s a year or two ago right? Perhaps there are further 302s to be released on the topic, at least we can hope so...

I'm almost sold on it definitely being Cooper. In the dropzone on the night of the hijacking is just a little too perfect... and it sounds exactly like the kind of items someone in his situation might steal. We have to be prepared for the possibility that it could have been a random hobo though (or worse, that we'll never know the truth). 

My biggest problem is with the reported footprints... I'm no expert on such topics, but I could buy the above being mistaken for military. I feel like they should leave a deeper imprint in the ground or something if they were true boots, but who knows how closely those footprints were actually examined.

Cooper could have had his own pair of boots too... can't forget the Corcoran boots the man from Elsinore had. Perhaps he brought them on board and put them on before jumping in the window of time he had alone to himself back there.

[snowmman 3]

45 minutes ago, Coopericane said:

The information about the Heisson break-in first emerged in the 302s a year or two ago right? Perhaps there are further 302s to be released on the topic, at least we can hope so...

I'm almost sold on it definitely being Cooper. In the dropzone on the night of the hijacking is just a little too perfect... and it sounds exactly like the kind of items someone in his situation might steal. We have to be prepared for the possibility that it could have been a random hobo though (or worse, that we'll never know the truth). 

My biggest problem is with the reported footprints... I'm no expert on such topics, but I could buy the above being mistaken for military. I feel like they should leave a deeper imprint in the ground or something if they were true boots, but who knows how closely those footprints were actually examined.

Cooper could have had his own pair of boots too... can't forget the Corcoran boots the man from Elsinore had. Perhaps he brought them on board and put them on before jumping in the window of time he had alone to himself back there.

No the information on the Heisson store is old. It was in the fbi file 10 on page 416

fbi file 10 has been around forever. I'm not eactly sure when file 10 was released.

I wonder if it was a bogus report to police. the details seem almost too cute.

[Coopericane 44]

17 minutes ago, snowmman said:

No the information on the Heisson store is old. It was in the fbi file 10 on page 416

fbi file 10 has been around forever. I'm not eactly sure when file 10 was released.

I wonder if it was a bogus report to police. the details seem almost too cute.

Oh huh, I am surprised it has been around that long. I was under the impression it was relatively new information. It hasn't seemed to be discussed very often until somewhat recently, at least. Actually Jo Weber was talking about it earlier... 2014 I think? maybe she just saw something in the 302s that other people missed/ignored.

 

[snowmman 3]

4 hours ago, Coopericane said:

Oh huh, I am surprised it has been around that long. I was under the impression it was relatively new information. It hasn't seemed to be discussed very often until somewhat recently, at least. Actually Jo Weber was talking about it earlier... 2014 I think? maybe she just saw something in the 302s that other people missed/ignored.

 

I just looked at the properties on the downloaded file 10 from the fbi vault.

assuming the one that is there is the same as when it was first made available.

it says

Creator: Adobe Acrobat Pro 11.0.19

Created Thu 30 Mar 2017 05:25:24 PM UTC

523 pages

So that sounds maybe correct? released in 2017? 

I forget when they started doing the almost-monthly releases. was it around then?

But definitely it was created before this year.

Jo didn't have access to any 302's that other people didn't have access to. More likely someone told her something.

Edited September 7, 2021 by snowmman

[FLYJACK 654]

The key to the diatoms is that there were no winter ones, only spring diatoms..

That means the money went into and was exposed to the river in a spring between 72-79 and became buried relatively soon.

Ulis is 100% wrong, the river did not ONLY reach the money spot in 72 and 74. Spring 72 thru 79 is in play.

Chaucer is claiming his theory ticks all the boxes, it doesn't, he has Cooper no pulling next to the Columbia along the flight path in an urban area. The evidence and witnesses indicate Cooper jumped much further North well before the Columbia.

The money spot is definitely North of the circles on the map.. Eric, Shutter and myself have all analyzed images from the find and agree on this. 

There is no doubt whatsoever that the money spot was much further North based on landmarks identified from images.

I believe from statements and images that there was regular beach nourishment at the TBAR spot separate from the recorded 1974 dredge operation.

The suction dredge operation is out for two reasons,, no winter diatoms and the condition of the money..

Since the money didn't float, if it came from the River it arrived when the money spot was underwater. The money was pushed there along what would be the bottom that time. Spring is the seasonal high flow for the Columbia.

 

A TBAR theory should fit the following..

Cooper jumps 8:11-8:13 + or -

"FBI" flightpath is accurate

Money enters the Columbia in Spring 72-79 and becomes buried on TBAR before exposure to winter diatoms

Likely,,

The money arrived as packets rubber banded into a single bundle.

 

I have three good theories for TBAR but I don't think this can ever be solved.. no way to prove it.

Edited September 7, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

FBI file #62 is up..

https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.-cooper-part-62-of-62/view

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Georger again shows he is a complete fraud and liar. Completely toxic to the Cooper case.

 

He is accusing me of getting Tom's work wrong and even lying... flying off the deep end.

I paraphrased Tom's own statement.. from the recent Expedition Unknown.

"there are diatom's that live in the winter and if it went in the water in the winter we would see those diatom's and we don't see them"  Tom Kaye

Those are Tom's words. Georger can read so it is clear he is wrong but Georger will never admit it.

Georger always needs to discredit others... never, ever trust anything this clown says.. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by FLYJACK

[Coopericane 44]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

FBI file #62 is up..

https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper /d.b.-cooper-part-62-of-62/view

 

 

Wow this one is kind of all over the place. A lot of different suspects. I didn't see anything that interesting after a quick skim but I'm curious to know what others find...

[FLYJACK 654]

Found this,,

The FBI wanted this..

A person at Northwest has a copy of a voice recorder tape printout which contains all of the communication between the skyjacker, cockpit and Northwest Control Center in a timed sequence, 

Did they have Cooper on tape?