DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

18 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Lyle didn't talk to the FBI in 2004. Not as far as I know. The case for KC is a lot stronger than you think. Witnesses make pretty good evidence sometimes. Especially when they give the same stories and haven't seen each other for many years. The public report ran on for more than fifty pages, and I have a tall boy dresser pretty well full of files and pictures relating to the investigation. You keep telling me I 'know' KC isn't Cooper. Boy have you got me pegged wrong. Of COURSE I think he's Cooper. I also believe that not only did Bernie Geestman instigate the whole thing, but assisted in the crime. And then he tried lying to everyone later. 

One sketch, another sketch. Does it really matter that much? It was obvious the witnesses differed on many points anyway in their descriptions of Cooper. The sketches are not photographs. 

You see, he did in 2004 and you don't even know it.

I'd post it for you but you are too disrespectful.

The worst evidence, the lowest grade is personal opinions,,, that is the KC case. No evidence.

Sketches aren't photographs but KC isn't swarthy/olive complexion, latin in features and characteristics..  that is the basic requirement for any Cooper suspect. 

The FBI revised sketch A because some witnesses thought it was poor and they wanted to add the olive complexion and more age..

The FBI stated that sketch B is the most accurate.

You simply reject the facts to maintain your narrative. You are not a serious person.

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Blevins,

The ultimate irony is that KC was investigated in 2004,, you reject Hahneman because he was looked at but don't apply the same standard to KC..  hypocrisy and irrational.

I don't believe being investigated rejects a suspect.

[dudeman17 267]

I have an image in my mind. An old man calls a press conference. He walks up to the lectern with an old parachute, a stack of twenties, and other definitive proof that he is in fact D B Cooper. But nobody hears a word he says, because the entire audience is engaged in an old west saloon style brawl, with fists and chairs flying everywhere.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by dudeman17

[The Cooper Vortex 73]

New episode out now! Couple of shoutouts to my pal Flyjack. Hopefully I did an okay job paraphrasing your parachute research bro. Come on the show Flyjack! 
 

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

KC was NEVER investigated by the FBI, unless they did some checking on him later after they received all our submitted files and pictures, as well as our lengthy report. The only time KC was ever 'investigated' was when Larry Carr heard about KC back in late 2007 and read the Geoff Gray article in New York Magazine. Based on that alone...and nothing else...Carr rejected KC as possibly being Cooper. But at the time this happened, no one was checking out Bernie or Margie Geestman, or talked to anyone who might actually know some information linking KC to the crime. People like Helen Jones, or Bernie's niece Denise R, or Geestman's sister, the lady who got that $5,000 in cash from KC through her brother Bernie. Nobody knew anything about these people or even how they related to the crime until Skipp Porteous and I started checking them out. And that didn't happen until late 2009-early 2010 I believe. 

Yes...I heard something about Lyle calling up the FBI before he got around to contacting Skipp Porteous, but as I tell people sometimes, Lyle didn't know one way or another if his brother was really Cooper...because he didn't know any of the people KC knew...people who were holding on to facts related to KC and Geestman's possible guilt. Lyle just 'thought' his brother might be Cooper based on a TV show. It wasn't until Skipp and I started doing our thing, and running down these people for interviews that we found out the 'real deal' on KC and Geestman. 

I will tell you and everyone else this:  I find it very coincidental that we sent the Seattle FBI everything we had on these guys the last week of July in 2015...and they announce the case is being closed the following June. Maybe it means nothing. Maybe it meant everything. Two months after they officially closed in 2016, senior FBI agent John Jarvis tells three friends that the real reason the case was closed was because they knew Cooper was dead, and he answered affirmatively when Troy Bentz asked him if he meant Kenny Christiansen. I don't know what people expect from me. Jarvis was working in Behavioral Profiling out of Quantico at the time and had solved some high-profile cases. Was with the FBI for 15 years at that point. I would call that pretty damning evidence. 

KC was investigated in 2004.

Now, are you going to take back your nonsense and apologize or double down on wrong.

You can't have it both ways Blevins. Your assumptive argument against Hahneman also applies to KC.

Edited September 3, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

So far, I have identified 80 TBAR bills from many sources.. including the top bills from 11 of the 12 Ingram stacks. (remember they kept 4 bills and handed them over later so the top ones may not be the actual top ones)

B09090997B 1963 A TBAR
C13871652A 1963 A TBAR
D27112759A 1969 TBAR
E41933578A 1969 TBAR
E61102414A 1963 A TBAR
E65330757A 1963 A TBAR
F07553334A 1969 TBAR
G00061029B 1969 TBAR
G03072381B 1969 TBAR Kept by Ingrams later turned in
G21056376B 1963 A TBAR
G45632911B 1963 A TBAR
G54783796B 1963 A TBAR
I03006119A 1969 TBAR
I03389775A 1963 A TBAR
I06638737A 1969 TBAR
J09534759A 1969 TBAR
J12657135A 1969 TBAR
J16396253A 1969 TBAR
J20209868A 1963 A TBAR
K03654750A 1969 TBAR
L01781113A 1969 TBAR
L01842041A 1969 TBAR
L02882111B 1963 A TBAR
L03160387B 1963 A TBAR
L03166965B 1963 A TBAR
L04461895* 1963 A TBAR
L06832736A 1969 TBAR
L10919321A 1969 TBAR Kept by Ingrams later turned in
L12650395A 1969 TBAR
L12907861A 1969 TBAR
L19629118B 1963 A TBAR
L20210452A 1969 TBAR
L20211452B 1963 A TBAR
L20301456A 1969 TBAR
L29575638A 1969 TBAR
L29859540B 1963 A TBAR
L30008289A 1969 TBAR
L32700814A 1969 TBAR
L32987392A 1969 TBAR Kept by Ingrams later turned in
L34047759A 1969 TBAR
L34212082A 1969 TBAR
L34403254A 1969 TBAR
L34458940A 1969 TBAR
L34589413A 1969 TBAR
L34628654A 1969 TBAR
L34641262A 1969 TBAR
L36246726A 1969 TBAR
L36692532A 1963 A TBAR
L38138140A 1969 TBAR
L38513685A 1969 TBAR
L43214579A 1969 TBAR
L47621840A 1969 TBAR
L48603996A 1969 TBAR
L48628301A 1969 TBAR
L49839325B 1963 A TBAR
L51079019B 1963 A TBAR
L51236377B 1963 A TBAR
L51303841A 1969 TBAR
L55066857A 1969 TBAR Kept by Ingrams later turned in
L57110577A 1969 TBAR
L66606663B 1963 A TBAR
L68886415B 1963 A TBAR
L69210458B 1963 A TBAR
L72525838B 1963 A TBAR
L72738527B 1963 A TBAR
L73000558B 1963 A TBAR
L75500928B 1963 A TBAR
L86567062A 1969 TBAR

 

 

 

11 OF THE 12 STACKS TOP BILL

H27412938A 1963 A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
I02442844A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
I02591811A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L09781412A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L20452751A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12

L20848242A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L30706882B 1963 A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L35399523B 1963 A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L53307222A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L55376548B 1963 A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L55479078B 1963 A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12

 

 

FRAGMENT FOUND ON TOP 

E06379503* 1963 A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12 FRAGMENT

 

 

 

 

.

Edited September 3, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

21 hours ago, The Cooper Vortex said:

New episode out now! Couple of shoutouts to my pal Flyjack. Hopefully I did an okay job paraphrasing your parachute research bro. Come on the show Flyjack! 
 

Yes, accurate...

Putting all the info together, this may not be exact but close.

 

Cossey is contacted at home about getting 2 back and 2 front chutes.

He tells them to grab the two fronts and two of his backs from Issaquah.

Linn Emrich is contacted to obtain the chutes at Issaquah.

Hayden is contacted and sends his two back chutes in by cab. 

Linn Emrich grabs a good front reserve and practice front reserve which he claimed was an error. Back chutes are no longer required from Issaquah.

The police drive the two front chutes in to Seattle Airport.

The back chutes are described as a tan luxury and an olive drab with tan cloth harness.

The two fronts and Hayden’s two back chutes go to the plane.

Cossey is contacted and told that a tan Pioneer back chute was left behind. Cossey claims his other chute was a NB6/8 nylon sage green container and nylon sage green harness 28 FT.

The packing card for a Pioneer SN 60-9707 is found in the chute left on the plane. Either Cooper put it there or somebody in Reno did.

The chute SN 226 is noted in FBI files as being forwarded from Reno. That confirms it was the one left on the plane.

Chute SN 226 was eventually returned to Hayden and subsequently repacked.

Cossey packed SN 226 and SN 69-9707 May 21, 1971. Hayden purchased the chutes from a surplus store and they had the chutes repacked by Cossey. 

BOTH OF HAYDEN'S BACK CHUTES PACKED MAY 21, 1971 BY COSSEY PER FBI. SN 226 and SN 60-9707 both packed May 21, 1971. Chute SN 226 was returned to Hayden,, chute SN 60-9707 is missing.

The FBI asked Cossey several times for his records.

Cossey claimed he gave the FBI all he had. He didn't.

Cossey later claimed his back chutes were sent from his home and that he owned the back chutes and he never heard of Hayden. They weren't.

Cossey claimed his back chute left on the plane was returned to him. It wasn't.

Cossey described his back chute left on the plane as a B-4 sport freefall chute. It wasn’t.

 

 

What happened,, Cossey thought the two back chutes were his from Issaquah and gave the FBI the description of the chute he assumed Cooper used based on a tan Pioneer being left in the plane. Cossey's back chutes were not sent from Issaquah. Cossey must have figured this out but never admitted it, instead he changed his story to support his error. When it became more public that Emrich only supplied the two fronts Cossey changed his story to the chutes being sent from his home.

There is no evidence other than Cossey’s assumption that the chute Cooper used was his NB6/8 nylon sage green container/nylon sage green harness 28 FT.

All the chutes found were rejected based on Cossey’s description. The Cooper chute may have been found already and rejected due to Cossey’s description.

 

The FBI relied on Cossey’s assumption, they must have figured this out eventually.

The packing card found on the plane missing a chute is likely the one Cooper used..

MAKE: Pioneer Parachute Co.

TYPE: 24' Ripstop Conical 

SERIAL NO: 60-9707

DATE OF MFR: July, 1960

INSPECTED BY: May 21, 1971 by E J Cossey on riggers license number 159638

PACKING CARD: listed Brown Engineering Company, Post Office Box 1436, Patterson, California, 95363.

 

Chute was described early as Olive Drab container and Tan cotton harness.

 

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

9 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I see all that stuff, but it doesn't amount to much. What was done was probably as a result of Lyle calling the FBI. But it wouldn't have gone very far. 

NWA purged employee files of anyone no longer working for the airline every five years. (Source: Bruce Kitt, curator, NWA History Museum.) In 2004, Kenny had not been with the airline for about a dozen years. The company handling any retirement pension payments for NWA might have some information, but possibly not there either, since Kenny had been dead and not receiving payments for ten years when the FBI got the word on him. 

Military Records: Pretty much the only two things existing on KC after the July 1973 records fire in St Louis was his DD214 and his enlistment record. Everything else went up in smoke like those millions of other records. We know this because we tried to get them and was told that was all they had. 

The person in Tacoma, WA referred to is Robin Powell, and he was never contacted by the FBI. He and his former wife lived with KC the last couple of years he was alive. Powell is semi-homeless and still lives in Tacoma. He has an extensive record, mostly for domestic violence issues (he beat up his own mother once) and drugs/alcohol. 

However...since you have established KC did make the suspect list at some point, this only makes me believe that when they received our 54-page report and the DVD with the video, and the CD with the image files on our investigation into KC and Geestman and a few others...that they might have taken it more seriously than just KC's brother calling them up, and pointing to his brother as a suspect. They were getting calls and letters suggesting possible suspects all the time. Few were taken far, or very seriously. 

Prior to the submission of our final report and all those documents/images, whatever...they knew all this stuff was coming when it was ready...and they specifically asked for us to get it to them when it WAS ready. In other words, they wanted to see what we had. So we did. And you can believe me when I tell you we had a lot more for them than just Lyle Christiansen calling them up because he saw a TV show on Cooper. 

So, the FBI did investigate KC in 2004 and KC was never discovered to be Cooper...

You claimed Hahneman wasn't Cooper because the FBI would have figured it out.

If you believe KC is Cooper and he was investigated then you can't reject Hahneman OR you must reject both.

 

Checkmate Blevins, you can't have it both ways. 

[FLYJACK 654]

3 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I wouldn't call what the Seattle FBI pursued on KC in 2004 an investigation. None of the people who were interviewed about him either by Geoff Gray or myself were ever contacted by the FBI. I imagine they blew off Kenny right away as Cooper because they couldn't believe it was an inside job, and didn't know the people Kenny knew. It took 18 months of traveling around the Great Northwest and hunting people down for interviews, with Porteous running the background checks for me...to get to the truth of the matter. Can I say without any doubt that Kenny was Cooper? Not really. But despite all the quacking and bitching from other Cooper investigators, we still presented the best evidence against any suspect to date. And we did that by making everything completely transparent and public. The entire report, everything we had...with a few extra things to the Seattle FBI that we did NOT reveal publicly. I figure we just leave it at that and let people decide for themselves. 

Checkmate Blevins..

The FBI did investigate KC and because the FBI files are incomplete you don't know how much they did.

There is far more on the FBI investigating KC than on Hahneman..

You can't have it both ways,, admit it, by your logic either both KC and Hahneman can't be Cooper or they both can be..   you can't pick and choose. 

You are cornered, the only way out is to admit your error. Step up or forever lose all credibility.

 

[dudeman17 267]

Regarding the chutes...

 

On 9/3/2021 at 4:26 PM, FLYJACK said:

Putting all the info together, this may not be exact but close...

 

You study the evidence a lot closer than I do, so I have to follow you on this, but it begs a question...

 

On 9/3/2021 at 4:26 PM, FLYJACK said:

Cossey is contacted at home about getting 2 back and 2 front chutes.

He tells them to grab the two fronts and two of his backs from Issaquah.

Linn Emrich is contacted to obtain the chutes at Issaquah.

Hayden is contacted and sends his two back chutes in by cab. 

Linn Emrich grabs (the front reserves). Back chutes are no longer required from Issaquah.

 

On 9/3/2021 at 4:26 PM, FLYJACK said:

Cossey's back chutes were not sent from Issaquah. Cossey must have figured this out

 

Cossey would have to know that. Emrich would tell him and/or he would see it the next time he was at the dz.

 

On 9/3/2021 at 4:26 PM, FLYJACK said:

Cossey thought the two back chutes were his from Issaquah

 

???

He (and the FBI) would know that they weren't.

 

Now, Cossey seemed to like to bs reporters, so anything he told them can be discounted as unreliable.

But as for the communication between Cossey and the FBI...

 

On 9/3/2021 at 4:26 PM, FLYJACK said:

Cossey is contacted... and gave the FBI the description of the chute...

All the chutes found were rejected based on Cossey’s description.

 

Why would the FBI ask for and rely on Cossey's descriptions when they both knew that they were not Cossey's chutes?

If they were asking Cossey for descriptions of Hayden's chutes based on the fact that he packed them, that would have to have been clarified. But Cossey probably wouldn't have remembered, and any info he would have in his records would be the same info on the packing cards.

???

 

-----

 

Also, where would any of the info on the McChord chutes (and their rejection) have come from?

[Coopericane 44]

If I am understanding Flyjack's theory correctly, there is a chance that Cooper intentionally swapped the packing cards to confuse the authorities, right? Or the cards somehow got mixed up before that in the scramble to get them to the airport. Either way it sounds like the FBI could have been looking for the wrong parachute all these years which would be huge. I wonder if any of the chutes found in the dropzone could fit this new description...

[FLYJACK 654]

13 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Cossey would have to know that. Emrich would tell him and/or he would see it the next time he was at the dz.

 

 

???

He (and the FBI) would know that they weren't.

 

Now, Cossey seemed to like to bs reporters, so anything he told them can be discounted as unreliable.

But as for the communication between Cossey and the FBI...

 

 

Why would the FBI ask for and rely on Cossey's descriptions when they both knew that they were not Cossey's chutes?

If they were asking Cossey for descriptions of Hayden's chutes based on the fact that he packed them, that would have to have been clarified. But Cossey probably wouldn't have remembered, and any info he would have in his records would be the same info on the packing cards.

???

 

-----

 

Also, where would any of the info on the McChord chutes (and their rejection) have come from?

There are reports that they requested both front and back from Issaquah but the backs weren't needed as they secured them from Hayden.

We can only speculate here, but I think Cossey initially believed that his back chutes were taken from Issaquah, they weren't. He was told a Pioneer was left behind and he described his other chute as the custom NB6/8. Soon after he would have figured out that his back chutes were not used. IMO, he never supplied his records because it would show his description was wrong.

In the FBI files, it does claim that Cossey owned the back chutes, it also states elsewhere that the back chutes came from Hayden, it does not state that Cossey owned the chutes prior to Hayden purchasing them. Cossey claimed they were his back chutes and he had never heard of Hayden.

I believe the FBI got confused, they knew Cossey packed both of Hayden's back chutes May 21, 1971 and relied on him as that was all they had. However, Cossey was initially mistaken then lied to cover up his error. Adding to the confusion was the ownership of the the front chutes.

FBI agent Larry Carr interviewed Cossey around June of 2008 and he believed the back chutes came from Cossey's home.

 

I haven't been able to sort out the McChord chutes, I assume they asked McChord but they didn't have them, refused or made an excuse.

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

12 hours ago, Coopericane said:

If I am understanding Flyjack's theory correctly, there is a chance that Cooper intentionally swapped the packing cards to confuse the authorities, right? Or the cards somehow got mixed up before that in the scramble to get them to the airport. Either way it sounds like the FBI could have been looking for the wrong parachute all these years which would be huge. I wonder if any of the chutes found in the dropzone could fit this new description...

Close, I don't believe Cooper intentionally swapped the cards to confuse authorities..

Somehow the SN 60-9707 card ended up in the pocket of SN 226..

The dummy had no card, the opened front reserve had its card and there were two other packing cards noted in the FBI files, SN 226 and SN 60-9707.

I can't see Cooper jumping with the front dummy chute, if he used it to carry anything he would have left the contents on the plane,, IMO, he tossed it because it had no card or seal which indicated tampering.

Either somebody in Reno put the SN 60-9707 packing card in the remaining back chute as there as they were loose on the plane,, or Cooper did..

Tosaw claimed Cooper removed the packing cards and inspected the chutes. Tina also said Cooper inspected the chutes.. that would include checking the cards and seals to ensure the chutes weren't tampered with.

Perhaps Cooper pulled the card from SN 60-9707, checked it and checked the chute and the seal. With that card still in his hand he pulled the card from SN 226 and stuck the SN 60-9707 card in that pocket for convenience. He chose the SN 60-9707 chute and left the SN 226 card on the plane. The FBI files show that card SN 60-9707 was found in the pocket of the chute left on the plane but the chute returned to Hayden had the card for SN 226 in it.

There were many chutes rejected by Cossey or because they didn't match his description.

Two of interest are the chute found near Heisson in the South Fork Lewis River and another with no location. There may be others.

In 1975, SN 226 Manufactured date Sept 1957 returned to Hayden..  SN 60-9707 was July 1960..

 

Chute found and rejected because it was a 24 fT chute. SN 60-9707 was noted as a 24 FT. 

Edited September 5, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

A chute was found near Heisson in the South Fork Lewis River less than a mile form the Heisson store. The Rail tracks run right along the River and past the store all the way to Vancouver.

The chute was several miles E of the flight path right about the 8:12 time along the flightpath.. right in the zone.

The chute was rejected because it was orange and white.

 

The chute was found in the River (blue line) and the rail tracks are the red line.

That area would be a good target to search..

There was an historic flood in Heisson in Spring 1972.

[FLYJACK 654]

In 1976 the FBI felt the evidence was so weak that they only had a case if Cooper confessed and co-operated..

So, even if they had a suspect, they still needed the co-operation of Cooper.

[FLYJACK 654]

The Hicks placard did not come from inside the NORJAK plane..

The placard did come from 727's but not all.

The FBI stated after obtaining the blueprints for the placard that it was on the outside and could have fallen from any passing 727.

The placard is an for an.. emergency exit pull red handle..

The only interior pull red handle for the 727 is the optional emergency exit release. Not all 727's had that option.

The Cooper plane did not even have that option.

The normal emergency release is to push main lever.

The Hick's placard did not come from inside that plane.

[FLYJACK 654]

Here is the Air America drop video..  

at about 1:07:50 in video..  

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

In 2008 Cossey claimed he still has the chute serial number in old log books..

https://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Unlikely-FBI-has-found-Cooper-s-chute-says-man-1268323.php

"I would recognize the stitching on the parachute," said Cossey, who believes he got the parachute in the 1960s and still has the serial number in old log books.

 

However,

The FBI never got the serial number for the chute Cooper used, Cossey was contacted several times and never provided his records claiming he gave the FBI all he had.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

On 3/14/2021 at 8:54 AM, FLYJACK said:

Thanks to people like Georger and Ulis I have publicly posted only about 20% of my research...

and I have so much stuff I forget what I have already done..

I went back in my files..

 

Palmer believed the fragments found at depth were deposited by digging actions..

I agree, that is most likely, the digging was sloppy and few frags were found.

 

I found a high resolution image of the fragment found by the FBI and with 5 digits from the serial number plus the letter G matched a Cooper bill.

G21056376B was the serial number for the larger bill fragment found by the FBI.

It is not in my TBAR bill number list but I have accumulated only 85 out of the roughly 285-300 bills in the three packets. If this bill number was not from the three packets the FBI would know as the FBI had the micro of bills in order.

This is not the hi res image.

Snowmman,

I already found that bill and if you look one page back I have a list of about 80 TBAR bills already found..

[snowmman 3]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Snowmman,

I already found that bill and if you look one page back I have a list of about 80 TBAR bills already found..

Yes I just noticed that. For some reason Google doesn't hit the dropzone.com pages on a search as well as it hits the dbcooperforum.com pages (it does hit some dropzone.com pages)

I'll have to look at why G21056376B didn't hit on this forum with google.
I had only seen a fuzzy image of the fragment the FBI found before...so I was surprised that video had a serial that was in-focus enough to deduce.

If you have a list of 80 serials, where did they all come from? Have you been able to get PCGS to release a list of all serials they certified? I read a release which made it sound like they had access to a list the FBI maintained (of found serials).

Both of those lists would be interesting to have.
If I count the ha.com auction images, and the FBI file serials from Crystal Ingram, and the small number of serials visible in images I know of, I'm surprised you got up to 80 serial numbers? Did you maintain links to sources for each serial?

I guess this has been discussed before. But all the FBI statements about the "bundles" when they were found seem false/made up (bills in same sequence, 3 bundles, amount of money found)

I'm still not sure the physical sequence of bills given to Cooper, matches the recordak scan..there's no reason that's guaranteed. It might be true, but it might not.
But FBI said the order matched (the found order matched the delivery order)..in the info they were feeding the press.

 

I guess I'm wondering how the count of bills adds up to 3x100. Maybe there was just 2 bundles, with one split in half or so.


EDIT: I'm thinking the FBI had no paper printout of the recordak serial number order. If they wanted to verify the order delivered to Cooper, they would have had to get the recordak out and look (if the recordak had that order matching delivery to cooper). I suppose it makes sense that the top and bottom of the packets had serials in the recordak ordered correctly. But unclear if the 98 bills between, were strapped in the same order as the recordak scan. Maybe.

But note: when they used the 15 start/end pairs for deciding what bills weren't sent to cooper, they had difficulty, and (fbi lab) asked for the entire recordak of the 15 bundles for subtracting from the cooper $230k list. So something wasn't right in how they tracked bundles with start/end pairs. Cause they had "difficulty" and needed the full recordak of the $30k. Isn't that what the fbi files said?

EDIT: now when the FBI lab created the sorted list. I'm guessing they transcribed the recordak, into a computer and used a computer to sort and print it out in the tabulated list we have. So at some time, the recordak list was available to be printed. I just wonder if they ever printed it. If so, why not in the fbi files we have so far?

Edited September 6, 2021 by snowmman

[FLYJACK 654]

8 hours ago, snowmman said:

If I count the ha.com auction images, and the FBI file serials from Crystal Ingram, and the small number of serials visible in images I know of, I'm surprised you got up to 80 serial numbers? Did you maintain links to sources for each serial?

I guess this has been discussed before. But all the FBI statements about the "bundles" when they were found seem false/made up (bills in same sequence, 3 bundles, amount of money found)

I'm still not sure the physical sequence of bills given to Cooper, matches the recordak scan..there's no reason that's guaranteed. It might be true, but it might not.
But FBI said the order matched (the found order matched the delivery order)..in the info they were feeding the press.

 

I guess I'm wondering how the count of bills adds up to 3x100. Maybe there was just 2 bundles, with one split in half or so.


EDIT: I'm thinking the FBI had no paper printout of the recordak serial number order. If they wanted to verify the order delivered to Cooper, they would have had to get the recordak out and look (if the recordak had that order matching delivery to cooper). I suppose it makes sense that the top and bottom of the packets had serials in the recordak ordered correctly. But unclear if the 98 bills between, were strapped in the same order as the recordak scan. Maybe.

But note: when they used the 15 start/end pairs for deciding what bills weren't sent to cooper, they had difficulty, and (fbi lab) asked for the entire recordak of the 15 bundles for subtracting from the cooper $230k list. So something wasn't right in how they tracked bundles with start/end pairs. Cause they had "difficulty" and needed the full recordak of the $30k. Isn't that what the fbi files said?

EDIT: now when the FBI lab created the sorted list. I'm guessing they transcribed the recordak, into a computer and used a computer to sort and print it out in the tabulated list we have. So at some time, the recordak list was available to be printed. I just wonder if they ever printed it. If so, why not in the fbi files we have so far?

Lots to unpack there...

The 80 or so came from HA auction images and brochure documentation as well as from images and video.. I did not document every source formally but do have the source images on my computer somewhere. I just added a note to the full bill list I created.

The money was in "packets" of 100 rubber banded into "bundles" when given to Cooper. So, I prefer to refer the the TBAR money as 3 packets to avoid the confusion Larry Carr created. The Recordak was claimed to be in order so the 15 start/stops for the remaining bundles could be deducted.

Since the money went to Cooper in packets of 100 then was rubber banded into bundles then it is more likely the money landed on TBAR in a single rubber banded bundle.. otherwise the packets had to be removed from the bundle by somebody.

My understanding is that the Recordak film needed to be processed into images. They would have  manually entered the SN and dates then sorted them alphanumerically. Since they had the original order it would have been easy to determine all 300 bill SN's of the 3 packets and they would have been able to claim the money was in the original order. So, I don't dispute the FBI claim that it was in the order as given to Cooper.

Without the original order, the TBAR bills and Cooper list is only good for searching for bills. I picked out unique numbers and star bills that a collector might keep and googled them, also check EBAY once in a while.

Yes, they claimed they were having trouble deducting the 15 packets x 100 from the original micro using the start/stop bills. The 15 packets were quickly incorporated into a second bank stash and that entire micro was given to the FBI. 

So, there are is lots of room for error in this process. It was not proactive but a deductive process. The final FBI bill list is not as certain as people think but we can't check it without the original order and documented chain of custody for the money vs micro before Norjak. It is one of the typical Cooper dead ends.

 

Also, the bills were circulated and "random",, but they wouldn't be completely random as packets start out new in order and get distributed. Collecting circulated currency would not be entirely random, new bills would not get completely randomized when circulated. Note, there are no 1969A bills, that can roughly date the assembly of the bank stash. 1969A bills came out new June 1971. No circulated 1969A bills given to Cooper.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

The card found in the pocket of the chute left in the plane is a Steithal SN 60-9707 July 1960..

The "60" in the SN is consistent with the year 1960 on a Steinthal..

Here a Steinthal SN 44-98914 is June 1944...  the "44" = 1944

That indicates the data on that card is legit and not some error.

Edited September 6, 2021 by FLYJACK

[snowmman 3]

thanks for the response flyjack

I'm not questioning that 100 note packets were delivered to Cooper. I agree they were likely strapped (and maybe rubber banded also. I'll accept that based on the Ingram testimony)

I'm just wondering why we're confident the three stuck-together bundles on Tena Bar were remnants of three cooper 100-note packets.

It's not clear to me at all, how the total number of found notes was determined. It would have been nice if the bundles were weighed, for instance.

The bills were not separated into more than 12 bundles at the time of the press party...where they were already quoting number of bills, and "in same order as delivered to cooper"

It just seems to me, that in 1980, the number of bills found, was a made-up number.
If that's true, then I don't know for sure why anyone thinks the 3 bundles found represent three independent packets delivered to cooper.

I guess I need more info that says there were >200 bills probably found at Tena Bar.

For instance: why shouldn't I believe that <200 bills were found? Maybe there's info I'm not aware of. The three bundles found, could be two split-up bundles.

I don't believe what the FBI said the day of the Ingram turn-in. I can't believe they could have determined either # of bills, or the order of bills (found vs delivered to cooper) on that day, in such a short amount of time.

If they did, how did they do it?

Edited September 6, 2021 by snowmman

[FLYJACK 654]

14 minutes ago, snowmman said:

thanks for the response flyjack

I'm not questioning that 100 note packets were delivered to Cooper. I agree they were likely strapped (and maybe rubber banded also. I'll accept that based on the Ingram testimony)

I'm just wondering why we're confident the 3 stuck-together bundles on Tena Bar were remnants of three cooper 100-note packets.

It's not clear to me at all, how the total number of found notes was determined. It would have been nice if the bundles were weighed, for instance.

The bills were not separated into more than 12 bundles at the time of the press party...where they were already quoting number of bills, and "in same order as delivered to cooper"

It just seems to me, that in 1980, the number of bills found, was a made-up number.
If that's true, then I don't know for sure why anyone thinks the 3 bundles found represent three independent packets delivered to cooper.

I guess I need more info that says there were >200 bills probably found at Tena Bar.

For instance: why shouldn't I believe that <200 bills were found? Maybe there's info I'm not aware of. The three bundles found, could be two split-up bundles.

I don't believe what the FBI said the day of the Ingram turn-in. I can't believe they could have determined either # of bills, or the order of bills (found vs delivered to cooper) on that day, in such a short amount of time.

If they did, how did they do it?

They don't say how they did it but it was an estimate of 280, not a hard number.

I don't think it would be very hard at all. You can use bill SN's in the 12 piles to match the original micro sequence. With that original list if the bill SN's fall within a range of 100 (x3) that means three packets in the original order. Not hard to do but they never disclosed how they did it..

Also, look at the piles of 12.. if 300 bills that is 25 per pile average but some piles are larger than others,, it looks like about 300 bills.

 

I think you are right bill..

L58739558B 1963A is the correct SN.. it is a 7 not a 1.

https://www.apmex.com/product/235119/unknown-series-20-frn-pcgs-d-b-cooper-71-ransom-money

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by FLYJACK

[snowmman 3]

In terms of errors/typos in the FBI ransom list. Some are obvious, some are subtle.

L34 390 386A 63

seems innocuous.

But there are only a relatively small number of 1963 bills in the list.

All the others in the FBI list from 1963 L district have low serial numbers, with a leading 0.
examples:
L05662422A 1963 
L05794760A 1963 
L05805357A 1963 
L05883937A 1963 

According to a collector book, using BEP data (which is sometimes incorrect), the L district run for 1963 serials only had a A run, and the serials printed (non-star) were 00000001 thru 07040000

that would make L34 390 386A 63 incorrect (L3490386A 1963) because the number is too big.

It is more likely that the series year is 1963A for that number. Assuming series year errors were likely to be more common than errors in the serial.

That said: I think the FBI list has a very low error rate. The error rate in the list that the check six uses is higher.
However, it's possible there are  errors in the FBI list that are undetectable...i.e. they seem legal according to all known BEP data.

So far, there is no bill found on Tena Bar with a serial not on the FBI list. I sent a note to an ebay seller of a PCGS certified fragment, with a partial serial, but no full certified serial. From what I can tell, the partial that PCGS identified is incorrect. It's the first time I've seen incorrect identification from PCGS. (If PCGS was confident of the partial they provided, they would have been able to provide a full serial. If they are confident about that partial, it would have to mean that a bill was found that's not on the FBI list..My look at the bill says PCGS misidentified a 1 vs a 7.
 

Edited September 6, 2021 by snowmman