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DB Cooper

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8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Well the only answer that makes sense is if everyone was blind, deaf, and dumb. Hahneman hijacked that jet about six months after Cooper. Some people might say he was just a copycat. And he pled guilty and still got life. If he admits to Cooper, maybe he gets less time. When he gets back from Honduras, you have to think the first thing the FBI would wonder is if he WAS Cooper. And six months after the Cooper hijacking is pretty recent. It would be an easy matter to just show his picture to the witnesses while their memories were still fresh. Or...one of the witnesses might recognize him from TV or the papers and just call the FBI...hey that guy is Cooper. Etc. 

Yet you want to convince people that a guy can do the exact same hijacking out the airstairs just six months after Cooper, and somehow no one figures it out...even though Hahneman sits in Atlanta Federal prison for over ten years. 

It's a stretch...a big one. It also ignores the fact that the FBI spent a boatload of money from the budgets to continue investigating the Cooper case. For even longer than Hahneman was in jail. Why would they do that when linking Hahneman to the Cooper case should have been ridiculously easy, if he were indeed DB Cooper? 

If you are going to claim it was all a cover-up, then you will have to explain why the FBI would keep wasting their time and effort sending agents all over America to chase Cooper. If there was a cover-up, they would not have done that. Or at least they would have scaled back the investigation and stopped spending so much money. You can't have it both ways, and during the ten years Hahneman was in Atlanta Federal...well, that's a long time to run up a budget and do a cover up, even for the Feds. It just isn't believable they would do that. No one is worth that much, to go to those lengths. Frankly, I think someone...if they were trying to hide something really big...would simply have killed him off. They wouldn't keep sending out agents on phony errands and running up thousands of files on Cooper for more than a decade. 

Yikes,, way too many bogus assumptions... that is one reason I don't share 80% of my info.

You don't know what you don't know..

That attitude and thinking is exactly why the case wasn't solved.

If I started with your attitude I would never have uncovered all the info I have.

Without prints in 1972 how would the FBI prove anybody was the HJ.. even the FBI admitted that the case would only be solved if the HJ co-operated. There wasn't enough evidence.

Hahneman was not a copycat, a US official said he was planning for a year.. predating NORJAK.

 

Something extraordinary occurred for this to remain "unsolved", making generalized and baseless assumptions doesn't cut it. Accepting prevalent narratives doesn't cut it. Claiming the FBI would have solved it, charged and convicted somebody if they crossed their path doesn't cut it either..

You just don't know what you don't know.

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4 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Yes. 

Flyjack says, in part:

Those points I made aren't bogus assumptions. You cannot expect people to believe that six months after Cooper, that at least a few FBI officials must have wondered immediately if Hahneman was possibly Cooper. It is 1972. They are dedicating major resources and agents to find out who the heck Cooper was, and to arrest him. They checked out McCoy pretty thoroughly for Cooper and decided he wasn't the guy for a couple of reasons. And McCoy looks much more like the sketch than the pictures I have seen of Fred Hahneman in news photos where he is being led away in handcuffs. But Hahneman, unlike McCoy, did not escape and later get himself killed as McCoy did. In other words, they had Hahneman in custody for more than ten years. It would be an easy matter for the FBI to parade the witnesses in front of him while he was in Federal prison for all those years. Yet for some reason, they obviously did not, or it would have made the news. Why didn't they? 

But for some reason, the FBI didn't seem to think he was Cooper. Maybe the witnesses wrote him off with the FBI right away. "No way," they may have said. "He's not even close." And Hahneman was locked up with the Feds for ten years and then released free and clear. In all of the FBI releases to date, not one file that I have seen even hints he could be Cooper, and then meanwhile...the FBI continues to break the budget trying to find Cooper. Why is that? 

What's going on here is that you don't know what the FBI knows about Hahneman, not that we don't know. Or even I. But for some reason they must have decided he was not Cooper, because once you have someone in custody and they aren't going anywhere...it isn't that hard to investigate them further. They could visit him in Atlanta and question him. They could bring the witnesses. They could even make an offer of release or a shorter sentence if he fesses up to Cooper. But obviously they didn't do any of that. Why? That is the real question. And the most likely answer is that somehow....they figured out he wasn't their guy for Flight 305 and moved on with the Cooper investigation. 

 

"Everyone was blind, deaf and dumb..."

 

Yes, they are bogus, completely ignorant comments. You really know virtually nothing about Hahneman yet have confidence in lots of conclusions.

 

and you botched this..

Hahneman resembles sketch B better than McCoy,, sketch B was more accurate, so says the FBI. Sketch A should be tossed in the dust bin with the western flight path. Sketch B was the best representation of Cooper. 

"for some reason they must have decided he was not Cooper" really, what reason? If somebody could explain why he was eliminated that would be great. But all I hear is vague and uniformed assumptions with an opinion attached.

I did find a gross error made by the FBI that would eliminate Hahneman as Cooper if true, it is 100% false, if they did use that then they got it wrong but I don't know if that was used.

 

But on another level, the fact that we have virtually no info on Hahneman regarding Cooper is a tell not a reason to reject.. we have info on many high profile suspects who are not Cooper but not for Hahneman.. All the other suspects are named in the files unless they were still alive but not Hahneman.. virtually nothing.. as if he has been erased. Remember, Hahneman matches Cooper better than any other suspect yet is virtually invisible. Even suspects that were eliminated are heavily discussed on the FBI files.

 

What is really going on is everybody (me too) accepted the false narrative that Hahneman was a copycat, he wasn't. That false label itself defined and contained any questions within a false construct. Then everyone assumed Hahneman must have been eliminated by the FBI but nobody can explain why... In fact Snow asked Carr this very question,, (why was Hahneman eliminated). Carr didn't answer and was gone from DZ soon after.  So, Hahneman was ignored. When I started researching Hahneman my goal was to find out why he was eliminated,, instead I found that he was a near perfect match for Cooper far beyond any other suspect and I have not been able to eliminate him or find out if the FBI did..

 

What you have done and many others is eliminated a suspect based on biased assumptions, not on evidence and that isn't a rational approach to a very extraordinary case. It is amateurish thinking.

You should start with the question,, why wasn't Hahneman Cooper,, not the assumption that he wasn't because the FBI would've known and told us. <<  this closes your mind and ends any intellectual inquiry but maybe that was the plan all along. If everyone thought he was a copycat then he wasn't Cooper.

For Hahneman, there were influences higher than the FBI at work here..

The proper position for most who know very little about Hahneman is neither reject nor accept Hahneman as Cooper,,,

 

 

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32 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Okay, suppose I buy all of this and accept it. If an arsonist burned down the Space Needle and they didn't know who he was, but had witnesses...and then six months later the same guy burns down the Columbia Tower...and they catch him...don't you think the cops would have sense enough to consider the idea that both were done by the same guy, and to check out that possibility?

McCoy was front page news when they caught him, and the stories were hot and heavy that he might also be Cooper. 

Yet Hahneman isn't even mentioned as a possible suspect, and his MO was virtually the same. You should ask yourself why the FBI might have wrote him off immediately without investigating whether he was also Cooper. Maybe they had a reason NOT to investigate. Maybe somehow they knew right off the bat he wasn't Cooper. Both Cooper and Hahneman did their hijackings six months apart. And McCoy was right in there as well. 

You keep repeating yourself and making the same errors,, 

I told you before they did look at Hahneman...

I don't need to ask myself anything..

You should ask yourself why you know virtually nothing about a suspect that matches Cooper nearly perfectly..

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57 minutes ago, Divalent said:

So does this look like Cooper?  Lots of details about Hahneman in the Wikipedia account:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Hahneman#The_hijacking

(what brand of cigarette did Cooper smoke?)

Maybe he lost the "Cooper" money in his jump, so that explains why he did it again (assuming he was, in fact, Cooper).

William Hahnemann.JPG

The wiki page is somewhat superficial and general citing news articles..

It is OK for a general overview of his hijacking but not nearly enough detail.

I have thousands of docs on Hahneman from many sources including the FBI.

 

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Well, I don't know, but for the sake of conversation I'll hazard a guess. I don't think Flyjack is saying that Hahneman is absolutely Cooper. I think he's saying that H is a better suspect than any other, so he's working that angle.

The key statement I see in this exchange is...

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

For Hahneman, there were influences higher than the FBI at work here..

If Hahneman was Cooper, and the FBI came to know that, but the public wasn't supposed to know because...

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

For Hahneman, there were influences higher than the FBI at work here..

...then I could see where the FBI just doesn't say anything about him, which seems to be the case. But since the Cooper case is so prevalent in the public eye, then the FBI has to keep up the appearance of 'looking for Cooper', but they never get anywhere, which also seems to be the case.

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Like I said, I was just making conversation based on the recent exchange. We don't know who or what the Cooper case was. Which means we don't know what it wasn't. It could be simply for cash. It could be the most intricate conspiracy in history. It could be just for cash, but everyone involved 'had' some things on each other. We just don't know for sure, and fifty years later, maybe we never will. The vortex spins...

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(edited)
15 hours ago, Divalent said:

So does this look like Cooper?  Lots of details about Hahneman in the Wikipedia account:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Hahneman#The_hijacking

(what brand of cigarette did Cooper smoke?)

Maybe he lost the "Cooper" money in his jump, so that explains why he did it again (assuming he was, in fact, Cooper).

William Hahnemann.JPG

My thoughts on his appearance... (disregarding everything else since I know little about him as a suspect) he does look the right age and does look "geeky" to me. You can kind of see a "turkey gobble" in some pictures of him but it is not very prominent. The more I look at him actually the more he looks like the second sketch. I am split on the hair though. Cooper had more hair and it was parted to the side, wasn't it? But I suppose that's something very easy to disguise or modify with a wig or a haircut, especially if you are changing your appearance for a crime.

Edited by Coopericane

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7 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Well, I don't know, but for the sake of conversation I'll hazard a guess. I don't think Flyjack is saying that Hahneman is absolutely Cooper. I think he's saying that H is a better suspect than any other, so he's working that angle.

The key statement I see in this exchange is...

If Hahneman was Cooper, and the FBI came to know that, but the public wasn't supposed to know because...

...then I could see where the FBI just doesn't say anything about him, which seems to be the case. But since the Cooper case is so prevalent in the public eye, then the FBI has to keep up the appearance of 'looking for Cooper', but they never get anywhere, which also seems to be the case.

Sort of... close

Hahneman is the best suspect by a long shot, not even close.. I have been trying to put him on the plane but without confirmed prints and full DNA that is proving impossible. The DNA is partial (exclude only) and the prints are not confirmed to be Cooper's. Even the FBI admitted that the case can't be solved without the co-operation of Cooper. It seems impossible to put any suspect on the plane.

I don't believe the FBI as an agency engaged in a cover up or any "conspiracy", but the CIA/State Department did intervene in the Hahneman case to protect themselves. L Patrick Grey was the FBI director who resigned for destroying Watergate evidence liked to Howard E Hunt.. Hunt was asked about Hahneman's involvement in the CIA coup in Guatemala... It appears Hahneman with security clearances did Gov contract work all over the world in some very sketchy places..  High level individuals within the FBI may have undermined the investigation into Hahneman on behalf of the CIA/State Department without necessarily knowing why. 

Today is different, Hahneman is redacted from the FBI files, that only happens if the person is still alive or the FBI wants to hide something. If he was eliminated and is dead then why is he redacted. I believe he was flagged to be redacted.

 

9 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Now you are talking a conspiracy...where the FBI spends mass money and tens of thousands of man hours or more...to keep up the pretense of looking for Cooper...over the ten year period that Fred Hahneman was sitting in the Atlanta Federal Pen. I am not buying this, not for a second, not for a minute. The Cooper hijacking was not a 'test' of airline security, and wasn't a political statement. It was a robbery for cash, plain and simple. Once you start bringing up conspiracies, that is a claim that requires absolute evidence and proof. I think that if Hahneman was Cooper and for ten long years it was all some hidden conspiracy, the truth would have emerged long ago. And Hahneman would not have sat in Federal prison for his crime for ten years. Like McCoy and Cooper, he just wanted the money. Remember...Hahneman didn't like the denominations of the bills he received, and made the airline switch them. If this were anything but greed for money, if it were some weird conspiracy for some other purpose OTHER than money, he would not have bothered. 

No, Robert you are the only one throwing around the term "conspiracy theory". Then you attack that strawman.

Hahneman claimed the money was for arms for a coup in Honduras.. not sure, maybe, but the Honduras authorities claimed a coup was nonsense, there was a US backed military coup 5 months later. He also said the money exchange at the airport was a delay tactic to ensure his jump would be a "night jump".  Cooper also planned a "night jump"..  

 

12 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Well, at some point you will have to present at least a minimum of proof-of-results that Hahneman WAS investigated for the Cooper case...and was either dismissed...or was considered a suspect in the Cooper case...and how they came to that conclusion. I haven't made any unreasonable assumptions. The basic facts are simple:

  • Cooper pulls off a hijacking on 11/24/71 and is unidentified. 
  • Six months later, (approximately) both Hahneman and McCoy do their hijackings with a similar MO. 
  • McCoy is heavily investigated and questioned about the Cooper case. Although later he is generally dismissed, doubts remain even today that he was dismissed for cause. Maybe he WAS Cooper. But no one will ever know, because he escapes from custody and is later killed. He could, in fact, actually have been Cooper. Years later, there were even moves to do an exhumation and a DNA test. He still has his supporters as being Cooper. 
  • Hahneman was in custody with the Feds for approximately ten years and then released. He is never charged with the Cooper hijacking, and news reports are not available even showing the FBI thought he was a strong suspect for Cooper. 
  • The gorilla in the room, as they say, is that the FBI continued full-bore on their Cooper investigation, even after they had Hahneman in jail, and after McCoy was killed. So the obvious question is why would they do that if they had the slightest suspicion that a guy they already had locked down at the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary was Cooper? They would have come after him in interview rooms with both guns (virtually) blazing. It's what they do. Agents would have been visiting him at Atlanta at least once a week. 
  • Ask yourself why they didn't seem to focus on him as Cooper, at least where the public or the news media would have been reporting all that...such as they did with McCoy. 
  • It begs the question that perhaps they wrote off Hahneman for the Cooper case because they know something that you don't. 

EDIT: Believe it or not, I have an open mind regarding the question of Hahneman possibly being Cooper. I suppose since he had a similar MO to Cooper and McCoy, he's as good a suspect as any of the others.

But if you are going to engage in absolutes...(he ABSOLUTELY was Cooper) then you will have to present more than you have to date. If you say you can't, or won't...then in Cooperland it is hard for people to accept your conclusions. 

In other words, 'because I say so,' and 'just trust me on this,' are poor arguments. As far as KC goes, I can't say absolutely he was Cooper...but I DID make the entire 54-page report on him available at the AB website for download. It's been there for a few years now. Nothing really bad has happened as a result of that release. It's been downloaded...well, I stopped keeping track when it went over 50K or so. The world has not collapsed into a black hole as a result. 

No Robert, I don't have to do anything.

You claim the basic facts are simple,, then make baseless assumptions..

The facts are not simple, it is complex and I have thousands of pieces of info..

I don't owe you or anyone any info I have.

The only person I need to convince is myself.

You and others have rejected Hahneman with assumptions based on virtually no information on him or even wrong information.. 

My point is your assumptions are wrong and it isn't my responsibility to prove they are wrong. 

You have built a purely speculative narrative from thin air... exactly like Ulis does. A narrative that puts you in a self imposed box. I have no interest in opening that box for you. It is very time consuming and there is no upside for me.

 

My advice to you and others is to stop making assumptions about things based on your own lack of knowledge.. it is a trap. You don't know what you don't know and not knowing is a fertile environment for wild speculation.

 

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I do have Hahneman's Gov ink fingerprint from 1972,, 

There are no ridges.. there is no print just a smudge.

 

I have researched this and there are a few possible reasons...

A rare genetic condition..  unlikely.

An intentional obliteration, sanding the fingers.. possible.

Occupational, chemical or abrasive environment.. possible.

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3 hours ago, Coopericane said:

My thoughts on his appearance... (disregarding everything else since I know little about him as a suspect) he does look the right age and does look "geeky" to me. You can kind of see a "turkey gobble" in some pictures of him but it is not very prominent. The more I look at him actually the more he looks like the second sketch. I am split on the hair though. Cooper had more hair and it was parted to the side, wasn't it? But I suppose that's something very easy to disguise or modify with a wig or a haircut, especially if you are changing your appearance for a crime.

First, the bing sketch A should be tossed, the FBI revised it to sketch B to be more accurate for age and complexion and stated it was the most accurate sketch. 

I have maybe a dozen images of Hahneman, his look changes significantly, his weight fluctuates and hair style changes.. he really looks like 3 different people.. his face really changes with weight.

His hair is wavy, curled or marceled and parted on the left... I have one picture where he has it slicked straight back and one where it is short and forward..

Hahneman was 49 and did have the turkey neck, he also had thin lips like Cooper and a slightly protruding lower lip.. sloped forehead.. slightly receeding hairline.

Hahneman had slight greying hair on the temples, Cooper did not, however Bill Mitchell said he thought Coopers hair looked odd possibly dyed.. Some images of Hahneman don't show the greying sides. 

 

One witness said Cooper's hair was like George Raft and Nixon..

That matches Hahneman's hair..

Haheman doesn't have his hair slicked back here but he sometimes slicks his hair back.

You can see the wavy/marceled hair and slight greying on sides..

 

rafthahnixona.jpg.e4dfb8d03b60dae3119816a44f9090c6.jpg

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That's interesting stuff, Flyjack. I have to chuckle a bit, you say you don't see the FBI as involved in a coverup, but what you describe sounds a lot like that possibility. It raises a couple questions, though. And I don't say this in any way to refute your theory, just curiosity.

If they cover Hahnemann for Cooper, yet shortly thereafter they convict and jail him for the next one - why? Wouldn't the same circumstances apply? Maybe they cover him for one, but when he does it again, they say 'we can't keep doing this'? But if that's the case, then why not go ahead and out him as Cooper? And why does he do it twice? Does he need more money? Did he lose the money in 'Cooper'? If he did, might that contribute to the Tina Bar find? A lot of possibilities...

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6 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

That's interesting stuff, Flyjack. I have to chuckle a bit, you say you don't see the FBI as involved in a coverup, but what you describe sounds a lot like that possibility. It raises a couple questions, though. And I don't say this in any way to refute your theory, just curiosity.

If they cover Hahnemann for Cooper, yet shortly thereafter they convict and jail him for the next one - why? Wouldn't the same circumstances apply? Maybe they cover him for one, but when he does it again, they say 'we can't keep doing this'? But if that's the case, then why not go ahead and out him as Cooper? And why does he do it twice? Does he need more money? Did he lose the money in 'Cooper'? If he did, might that contribute to the Tina Bar find? A lot of possibilities...

It is complicated, but Hahneman was not on the FBI radar until after his hijacking had taken place. 

The crew of his hijacked plane told the FBI that he was Cooper.. (their opinion)

Hahneman was NOT ID'd yet and the FBI compared random prints from his plane to NORJAK prints with no match.. they also showed a sketch for his HJ to NORJAK witnesses. That sketch resembled Hahneman but was not that great according to witnesses. Once Hahneman turned himself in and was identified any connection to Cooper is redacted.

While in custody Hahneman had high level intervention on his behalf.. State Department level. 

They had him on his hijacking though not the money, he had stashed it. It was located a year later..   I believe he spilled its location to a jailhouse plant.

He got most charges dropped and a reduced sentence,, ended up serving 12 years.

There were others implicated but not directly involved who were very high profile..

The deal seems to have been to cover up the extent and isolate the Hijacking to only Hahneman and keep him quiet about his "security clearance" work for the Gov. The purpose was not to cover up the Cooper case but to protect the CIA/State Department and others from disclosure of embarrasing information right when they were being criticized for foreign activities. Undermining the Cooper investigation was ancillary.

For Cooper, I really don't know what the FBI believed regarding Hahneman, they did lie to the press about him. They stated that he returned from Vietnam in January '72 implying he can't be Cooper, but several witnesses place him in the US before that. I have documents that put him in Honduras January 72 establishing Honduran residency and citizenship,, but he used an altered name and fake birthdate. He was hiding in January 72 well before his hijacking.

So, six weeks after NORJAK Hahneman has fled to Honduras to establish residency, one report was that he paid some taxes there.. but if he was Cooper he would have taken any money he had with him and theoretically spent it there.. perhaps that is why it has never been found in circulation.

So, the Cooper case wasn't the coverup. The coverup was to minimize Hahneman and his connection to CIA/State activities and other high level people at a time when the CIA/State was under scrutiny..

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Don't lie to yourself. Of course you are trying to convince people Hahneman was Cooper. Otherwise you wouldn't keep posting what you DO have at Dropzone. 

You know by now deep down KC isn't Cooper, right..

It isn't my responsibility to convince anybody Hahneman was Cooper,, that is not what I want to do. The facts determine what people believe. My interest is in getting the facts right not convincing people. Those are completely different things.

Honestly, it just pisses me off when people make baseless and completely false claims when I have all the receipts.... and they have none.

 

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I do have Hahneman's Gov ink fingerprint from 1972,, 

There are no ridges.. there is no print just a smudge.

 

I have researched this and there are a few possible reasons...

A rare genetic condition..  unlikely.

An intentional obliteration, sanding the fingers.. possible.

Occupational, chemical or abrasive environment.. possible.

Here it is,, NORJAK smudged prints, no value..

 

 

smudgeprints.jpg

fingerprints7666.jpeg

fingerprints1664 copy.jpeg

printsnovalue.jpeg

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(edited)
43 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

If this is a single print where they ask you to just put your thumb into the ink and hit the paper on your own, this is often caused because most people don't know the finger or thumb must be ROLLED to get a print. If you just press your finger on the paper you usually can't get a good sample. 

This is why cops roll your finger(s) when taking prints the old fashioned ink way. 

It is a single print on an official Gov document from Jan '72.

I have no idea who did it or if it was rolled properly.

All I know is that there are no ridges just a smudge.

It seems odd that they would require a print and not do it correctly but it is certainly possible.

I will look for other examples from the same document..

can't find any that old.. newer ones have ridges..

 

You don't have to roll the finger to get a good print, rolling just captures more area. 

The print doesn't look like too much ink or too little. Not smeared.

It looks just like another a print I found of somebody with no ridges.. 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Went through the 2012 Rataczak DVD..

A few points of note.. most well known, important ones in BOLD, (my comments in brackets)

 

recommends Tosaw’s book as most accurate crew gave input

all boarded aft stairway

not Christiansen

727-100 93 seats total

Flo given paper,, was working coach section

Tina working galley

rolling down runway when got note and call from Tina

told Flo to stay in cockpit paper and pen take notes

HJ told Tina to sit down next to him

had briefcase and paper bag

showed Tina bomb

eight sticks battery wire starter

Tina cool as a cucumber

go to Mex city gear down flaps down cabin lights out stat no one aft first class and curtain drawn

Cooper never came to cockpit

several times cooper became upset and threatened to touch the wires (Cooper was more "aggressive" than generally believed)

crew demanded control, no outside intervention (FBI)

HJ wanted 4 parachutes

gave 5 o' clock deadline 

wanted $200,000 in US currency in a knapsack (He confirmed "US" currency, this is significant IMO)

told Tina have money waiting for chutes from McChord only 20 miles away

Later HJ asked for flaps 15 deg.. (Confirmed Cooper said 15 degrees but later)

pass sign remain in seats 

HJ wanted meals for crew

Tina bring money first,, money bag had string. (string?)

He threatened to blow up plane when money not in knapsack (Ouch, hadn't heard that)

Tina brought parachutes in..

Flo and Alice told to leave with Tina pilots planned escape.. didn't go right away

can’t takeoff with stairs down..  727 needs to rotate for takeoff  (assume he means locked down)

HJ agreed

Refuelling stopped, thought they were intervening,, fuel truck running out of fuel, demanded another truck, fuelling stopped again, RAT swore at them. Valve froze up, never heard of that, RAT knows it was bogus. (Rataczak believed the fuelling issues were a ruse, I agree)

Can’t make Mexico.

Considered bailing out escape when Tina only one left,, decided not to leave Tina.

Rataczak demanded Flo and Alice leave airplane. (Flo later apologized for not leaving when ordered)

727 stairs duel purpose, boarding and stability on runway.

Told from Boeing,, stairs come down nose lowers 3-5 deg… it did

Bill flew plane out of Seattle.

lifted the landing gear by mistake then lowered again Cooper didn't notice

30 deg at 10000 ft getting ice buildup center post windscreen

Tina came to cockpit.

Rataczak wanted rope for Tina when she opened the stairs

Get knife cut shroud line

Rataczak told Cooper how to open door and lower stairs. (Thought it was Tina, maybe both)

HJ can’t get stairs down

 

Slowed down plane

stair light came on

rate of climb pressure..  felt bump in ears (Bingo)

Rataczak on horn to air traffic control "our friend just took leave of us” “mark it” (That comm had to be logged and used in the DZ analysis)

Soderlind genius figured out LZ

Rataczak wanted to fly over the Pacific..  hoping Cooper would jump there

Refuelling set up for Reno.

Rataczak hand flying plane lowered 3-5 deg when stairs came down (not auto pilot)

Scott took over and landed Reno

Rataczak, you don’t want to see my FP it looks like connect the dots.

stairs only dropped about 3 feet inflight

sparks when landing in Reno

had dogs ready in Reno for search

HJ got notes and matches back

matches said “how to get a high school diploma” (Second pack of matches other than SkyChef)

dogs ate the crew meals on plane

parachute was a 28 ft 

Tina doesn’t like to talk about the case except with RAT..

thinks HJ landed in something like blackberry bushes (brambles) and didn’t survive

Tina carrying book in famous pic,, Mary Queen of Scotts not Bible

Hasn’t talked to Flo or Alice since.

Hasn’t talked to Anderson

 

crew stories..

Tina, Tosaw called to say,,  she was Carmelite nun in Convent in Eugene Oregon..

1981 - 1993 Tina in convent

 

Questions..

 

Ransom money found,, tumbled down river

money in paper wrapper (probably got that from Himmelsbach, he was in close contact)

FBI  kept 13-14 bills

HJ offered ransom money Tina packets of $20 bills… (Not exactly, actually Tina asked for money and took it)

 

Parachutes.

1 opened cut shroud lines and tied money around waste

1 dummy chute

ticket.. name

Dan Cooper

placard found,,, 

found two bodies in search

parachute canopy found.. Himms not right one

 

Suspects..

 

thinks FBI sent dummy chute on purpose (sabotage)

collected drink glass (IMO, Cooper was never concerned with prints only hand written notes)

HJ never left seat (He did but very briefly though)

Paul Soderlinds trapezoid LZ…  

Himmelsbach book also recommend

never left cockpit, never saw Cooper

HJ error, let passengers go before Tina got everything

Edited by FLYJACK
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(edited)
On 7/15/2021 at 7:05 AM, FLYJACK said:

The tie particle matrix resembles..

 

Best..

Dentistry,,  prosthetics

Electronics industry

 

Weaker..

Medical 

 

Maybe it is all three, maybe none.

Forgot to add....  Pyrotechnics...

Military stuff - flares and fireworks,, one thing that looked good was a hand held sparkler... 

 

The tie was about 6 years old so the particles likely came from many environments..

 

One problem with CRT screens is the absence of Europium..

Edited by FLYJACK

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9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Went through the 2012 Rataczak DVD..

A few points of note.. most well known, important ones in BOLD, (my comments in brackets)

 

recommends Tosaw’s book as most accurate crew gave input

all boarded aft stairway

not Christiansen

727-100 93 seats total

Flo given paper,, was working coach section

Tina working galley

rolling down runway when got note and call from Tina

told Flo to stay in cockpit paper and pen take notes

HJ told Tina to sit down next to him

had briefcase and paper bag

showed Tina bomb

eight sticks battery wire starter

Tina cool as a cucumber

go to Mex city gear down flaps down cabin lights out stat no one aft first class and curtain drawn

Cooper never came to cockpit

several times cooper became upset and threatened to touch the wires (Cooper was more "aggressive" than generally believed)

crew demanded control, no outside intervention (FBI)

HJ wanted 4 parachutes

gave 5 o' clock deadline 

wanted $200,000 in US currency in a knapsack (He confirmed "US" currency, this is significant IMO)

told Tina have money waiting for chutes from McChord only 20 miles away

Later HJ asked for flaps 15 deg.. (Confirmed Cooper said 15 degrees but later)

pass sign remain in seats 

HJ wanted meals for crew

Tina bring money first,, money bag had string. (string?)

He threatened to blow up plane when money not in knapsack (Ouch, hadn't heard that)

Tina brought parachutes in..

Flo and Alice told to leave with Tina pilots planned escape.. didn't go right away

can’t takeoff with stairs down..  727 needs to rotate for takeoff  (assume he means locked down)

HJ agreed

Refuelling stopped, thought they were intervening,, fuel truck running out of fuel, demanded another truck, fuelling stopped again, RAT swore at them. Valve froze up, never heard of that, RAT knows it was bogus. (Rataczak believed the fuelling issues were a ruse, I agree)

Can’t make Mexico.

Considered bailing out escape when Tina only one left,, decided not to leave Tina.

Rataczak demanded Flo and Alice leave airplane. (Flo later apologized for not leaving when ordered)

727 stairs duel purpose, boarding and stability on runway.

Told from Boeing,, stairs come down nose lowers 3-5 deg… it did

Bill flew plane out of Seattle.

lifted the landing gear by mistake then lowered again Cooper didn't notice

30 deg at 10000 ft getting ice buildup center post windscreen

Tina came to cockpit.

Rataczak wanted rope for Tina when she opened the stairs

Get knife cut shroud line

Rataczak told Cooper how to open door and lower stairs. (Thought it was Tina, maybe both)

HJ can’t get stairs down

 

Slowed down plane

stair light came on

rate of climb pressure..  felt bump in ears (Bingo)

Rataczak on horn to air traffic control "our friend just took leave of us” “mark it” (That comm had to be logged and used in the DZ analysis)

Soderlind genius figured out LZ

Rataczak wanted to fly over the Pacific..  hoping Cooper would jump there

Refuelling set up for Reno.

Rataczak hand flying plane lowered 3-5 deg when stairs came down (not auto pilot)

Scott took over and landed Reno

Rataczak, you don’t want to see my FP it looks like connect the dots.

stairs only dropped about 3 feet inflight

sparks when landing in Reno

had dogs ready in Reno for search

HJ got notes and matches back

matches said “how to get a high school diploma” (Second pack of matches other than SkyChef)

dogs ate the crew meals on plane

parachute was a 28 ft 

Tina doesn’t like to talk about the case except with RAT..

thinks HJ landed in something like blackberry bushes (brambles) and didn’t survive

Tina carrying book in famous pic,, Mary Queen of Scotts not Bible

Hasn’t talked to Flo or Alice since.

Hasn’t talked to Anderson

 

crew stories..

Tina, Tosaw called to say,,  she was Carmelite nun in Convent in Eugene Oregon..

1981 - 1993 Tina in convent

 

Questions..

 

Ransom money found,, tumbled down river

money in paper wrapper (probably got that from Himmelsbach, he was in close contact)

FBI  kept 13-14 bills

HJ offered ransom money Tina packets of $20 bills… (Not exactly, actually Tina asked for money and took it)

 

Parachutes.

1 opened cut shroud lines and tied money around waste

1 dummy chute

ticket.. name

Dan Cooper

placard found,,, 

found two bodies in search

parachute canopy found.. Himms not right one

 

Suspects..

 

thinks FBI sent dummy chute on purpose (sabotage)

collected drink glass (IMO, Cooper was never concerned with prints only hand written notes)

HJ never left seat (He did but very briefly though)

Paul Soderlinds trapezoid LZ…  

Himmelsbach book also recommend

never left cockpit, never saw Cooper

HJ error, let passengers go before Tina got everything

Great stuff, I never heard about the bodies found during the search before - were they ever identified? 

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(edited)

Georger once again gets it wrong..

Cooper's tie is Dacron Polyester not nylon... no they are not the same.

tiedacron.jpeg.c3fe72b5afeb5839f35156b038e0b86f.jpeg

 

and yes, Hahneman was diagnosed with terminal cancer in 1971, I have already examined the tie particles in relation to a cancer patient.

 

Some of the particles may have been introduced by the FBI after they got possession.

Something I noticed,, a permanent mark Q40 PRB... the evidence sticker on the tie is Q40 FJW

The evidence tag for the tie was Q40,, I assume the first permanent mark was done for the initial testing and the second was the later DNA testing.

However, the yellow permanent "ink" looks partially degraded...  so what particles were in that "ink"??

Did the dust contaminate other areas of the tie sitting in some cabinet for 40 years.. and what testing did the FBI do...

307099438_a02Tiebackcopy.jpg.f9728bf7455e7d686dfaefd788862558.jpg

 

club moss was used for latex gloves.

latextie.jpg.1dca909e533b3ae83690f8adebdfda0f.jpg

 

Found a random image of a NASA employee... tie and clip not so rare.

tiecliplocation.jpg.ecda0431c9d6ab89e26340799259c523.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

CKRET, Larry Carr made some conflicting statements here on DZ about the chutes..

 

D B Cooper 

Unsolved Skyjacking 
in Skydiving History & Trivia


November 27, 2007  ·  Report reply



 

Cooper never asked for any type of denomination.  

the reserve chute he jumped with was for classroom demo, it was not a functioning chute (Cossey did not provide the chute, he discovered the mistake the next day. The chute was provided by someone else at Sky Sports)  

The backback Cooper jumped with was an NB6 manufactured in 1959.  

The money was not found in a bag, the bundles were stuck together by the muck and time.  

Jo, you have my number.

CARR states the date for the chute Cooper jumped with was 1959..  Cossey claimed he gave the FBI the chute records but the FBI claimed they don't have them. Where does Carr get 1959? The opened reserve was 1959.

 

 

Ckret, what type of rig was the other backpack supplied to Cooper that night?
 

December 17, 2007
26' canopy, made by Steinthal, model 60-9707. 

Thanks for the clarification on the D rings.

60-9707 was reported as the SN on the card in the pocket of the back chute left in the plane. It does not match the chute returned to Hayden.

 


D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking
in  Skydiving History & Trivia
December 17, 2007  ·  Report reply

Cossey actually packed all four chutes, the two back pack chutes were sold or given to the individual who sent them in the cab to Boeing field. Cossey also packed the reserve chutes, but they were provided not by Cossey but the owner of Issaquah Sky Sports. Cossey discovered the mistake later on.


Here, Carr admits Hayden sent in two back chutes.



DB Cooper
in Skydiving History & Trivia June 14, 2008 · Report reply

I want to make sure everyone understands that the instruction sheet offered to Cooper may or may not have come from Cossey.

I think it was a bit odd to offer instructions to Cooper when he made no request for them. And from what we now know the NB6 was altered to the point that even an experienced skydiver may have had difficulty with it. From this, I think that maybe Cossey knew this and wanted to warn anyone who my try to use it.

Total guess on my part, but the two backpacks came from Cossey, from Cossey's house. i don't think he had a manufactures instruction sheet laying around that he sent with them.


Now, Carr thinks the back chutes came from Cossey's home with an instruction sheet. It doesn't seem plausible that Cossey would sell two bailout rigs with one being too difficult to open..  Cooper was presented an instruction sheet which he rejected. That was either a generic or it came from Cossey,, if it came from Cossey then Cooper didn't use Haydens' chute. Here is the contradiction, Hayden sent in two back chutes one was returned which did not match the SN of the one left on the plane. The conflicting SN's support the idea that Cooper jumped with another chute, perhaps Cossey's. This is still unresolved.



• DB Cooper
in Skydiving History & Trivia June 13, 2008 · Report reply

happythoughts,
You may have to change your name, "think positive dude, like count backwards or something." (what movie?).

Its one thing for me to read through the case file and develop an opinion about what happened the night Cooper jumped. I then can express my opinion, "Cooper bounced....." and we have several hundred posts about how stupid that opinion may or may not be. What it does is challenge me to rethink and develop something more than an opinion. Something that becomes a sound investigative foundation that can be backed, if not by evidence, solid fact.

Your right, the small bits and pieces we have been able to eek out won't do much in solving the case, yet. But soon a piece may shake out that fits but only because we have vetted out these small pieces.

Cooper jumped with a chute that had obviously been modified for one individual, it's owner. One more thing that just hit me, Cooper

Cooper jumped with a chute that had obviously been modified for one individual, it's owner. One more thing that just hit me, Cooper was given an instruction sheet on the chutes, wonder if it was Cossey trying to tell Cooper, "there's something you should know about one of these chutes...."

Regardless, all the pieces matter and only by running them into the ground (as painful as it is) can we be sure we are getting it right. 


How does Cossey send an instruction sheet to Cooper if both chutes sent to the plane came from Hayden?


DB Cooper
in  Skydiving History & Trivia
June 12, 2008  ·  Report reply

Sluggo,  

The NB6 and the Pioneer were Cossey's chutes, he had them at his house, they weren't at Seattle Skysports. I asked Cossey why he packed a 28 foot canopy in the NB6 and he just shrugged. Kind of like, "it was my chute, I did it because I can." I like that guy, I could have talked to him all day but he grew tired of me in about an hour.

 

Again, conflict, both chutes at Cossey's house, Carr is all over the place.


• DB Cooper
in Skydiving History & Trivia June 13, 2008 · Report reply

Question about the NB6, now that we have an NB6 expert here. When I talked with Cossey he explained how he configured the chute but did so as if I knew what he was talking about. (you ever talk to someone with so much expertise they don't have the time or desire to take it down a notch)

He talked about a two phase pull because of where he placed the handle. (it would have been under the right armpit) He said Cooper would have had to pull fully out and then up to deploy the chute. If he only pulled the handle out the chute would not have delopyed.

Can someone tell me if this is normal? Why would there have been a two directional pull?


Again, would Cossey sell a modified bailout rig to a non jumper that was so heavily modified to be dangerous to use? no way.




Finally, this isn't resolved by any means but the path of least resistance given all the info suggests that Cooper didn't jump with one of Hayden's chutes and that means Cossey must have sent in his chute. They sent one of Hayden's and Cossey's to the plane. Hayden got back the chute he sent in that wasn't sent to the plane (SN mismatch). Still, there may be another explanation but something doesn't add up and it doesn't help that Cossey's statements are unreliable..

 

but you can't have it both ways,, Cooper using the back chute sent in by Hayden and Cooper jumping with a modified chute with a special instruction sheet from Cossey.

If the chute was too difficult to use it couldn't have been Hayden's.. We don't know that it was too difficult to use other than Cossey's (unreliable) statements but if it was it could only have come directly from Cossey.


 



 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
1 hour ago, Andrade1812 said:

Fly,

Can you please find the FBI document EU is referring to about the parachute being modified? Thank you.

It isn't in there, it came from Carr's interview with Cossey.. typical Cossey BS... CARR/Eric are embellishing it to support the no pull narrative.

In fact, the initial interview with Cossey about the chutes don't mention the handle at all.

Cosseyinterview1126.jpeg.ba5753716df41800597abcab27180ded.jpeg

Cossey said it would work fine..

Cosseychuteworkfine.jpeg.a11ce3efcf1763d1717f8f2baba1b754.jpeg

 

Cossey, could he have made it,, oh yeah... (he lied about getting the chute back left on the plane)

seatimesoct1976.jpeg.f8c45420407aacfdb6045bdeefcfd591.jpeg

 

I am working on an interesting timeline for the chutes.. Cooper's chute magically changed the colour of the container and harness..

but,

He mentioned the handle in this video..

Cossey explains ripcord start 31:59

NB6.. ripcord very flat mixed in with the harness, he probably couldn’t even find the ripcord

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

Fly,

Can you please find the FBI document EU is referring to about the parachute being modified? Thank you.

 

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

typical Cossey BS..

Maybe but not necessarily. Changing or moving a ripcord handle isn't that unusual. If indeed Cossey used that rig for putting out students and wanted to get the handle further from their potential grasp, that would make sense. The BS part is that it would make the rig 'too difficult to use'. As you and I have both said, if that was the case, he would never give it to a pilot (such as Hayden). It would be too easy to change it back.

Also, as I said 'over there', if indeed that handle was mounted 'outboard', that could be the very reason that Cooper chose that rig. It would better get the handle out from under things he may have tied to his chest.

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