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quade

DB Cooper

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(edited)

Georger is liar and fraud..

He lies and makes a false claim,, I never said this and don't believe it.

"FJ is saying all vibrations and bumps can only happen when the stairs are at their fullest extent" Georger

He uses his own manufactured false claim to attack and ridicule.

"Thanks to FLY JACK we now have a brand new theory" Georger

 

There is no new theory whatsoever, all I have done is agreed with the FBI jump analysis.

For this,

Georger needs to lie about my position to attack it because he has no argument against the FBI analysis.

This is classic Georger, he has done this to others as well because he is incapable of synthesizing his opinion in an argument. He lies then uses that lie to prop up his opinion using ridicule. A complete fraud, an intellectual lightweight. NEVER EVER trust this guy on anything. I have caught him manufacturing case evidence just to win an debate.

Edited by FLYJACK

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We have to give NickyB credit for confirming with Langton that the 727 stairs were used for "agent" drops..

It was something everybody assumed but was never confirmed. They had the capability, you'd think they used it.

From that, the idea that Cooper faked a bump and closed the stairs is not supported by the evidence,, there would have been a second bump and the airstair light in the cabin would have gone off after 8:11...

Cooper believing the airstairs were operated from the cockpit, asking to be shown the operation and having trouble with them indicates he wasn't directly involved in any 727 "agent" drop but he could have been indirectly involved or heard about it.

 

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(edited)
18 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Parachutist March 1981...

Article on the Pursuit of D B Cooper jump.

 

Geez, I'd all but forgotten about that article. The stairs appear fully deployed in those pictures.

Carl Boenish died in '84 in a cliff jump at Norway's Troll Wall. He is considered the father of modern base jumping. A really interesting theatrically released feature film was made about him and the early days of base. 'Sunshine Superman'.

Dean Westgaard passed away from cancer many years ago, as did Kevin Donnelly some years ago. I believe Ray Cottingham is still around, but I haven't seen him or heard of his whereabouts for a few years. Not sure about Edwards or Meyers.

Edited by dudeman17

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44 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

 

Geez, I'd all but forgotten about that article. The stairs appear fully deployed in those pictures.

Carl Boenish died in '84 in a cliff jump at Norway's Troll Wall. He is considered the father of modern base jumping. A really interesting theatrically released feature film was made about him and the early days of base. 'Sunshine Superman'.

Dean Westgaard passed away from cancer many years ago, as did Kevin Donnelly some years ago. I believe Ray Cottingham is still around, but I haven't seen him or heard of his whereabouts for a few years. Not sure about Edwards or Meyers.

No, the stairs aren't fully deployed...

The railing support joint is just inside and angle of the hydraulics is shallower.. and you have two people going off the stairs..

but it is an interesting pic,, 

stairff.jpeg.43d29802c70feadc94490f3f4c7c5552.jpeg

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

No, the stairs aren't fully deployed...

The railing support joint is just inside and angle of the hydraulics is shallower.. and you have two people going off the stairs..

Good eye, I stand corrected. In the film clip of the jump that was posted some time ago, it certainly was not fully extended. It also didn't seem to 'snap back' very hard when the guy jumped.

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(edited)
3 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Good eye, I stand corrected. In the film clip of the jump that was posted some time ago, it certainly was not fully extended. It also didn't seem to 'snap back' very hard when the guy jumped.

I do remember reading somewhere that the stairs were modified for the stunt,, but I can't find it now.

That may have been the case. If so, it wouldn't be a good representation of NORJAK.

Also, the stunt was done at 140,, vs 170

Edited by FLYJACK

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On 7/2/2021 at 8:11 AM, FLYJACK said:

...

That is why the FBI used them interchangeably, the so called "pressure bump" differed only in magnitude, A unique oscillation. Since, the sled test showed that the frequency and magnitude increased after the weight dropped and Anderson said it was exactly the same as NORJAK, that supports it happening within seconds, not minutes.

 

...

No Georger a week ago I said "within seconds, not minutes",,,

You just falsely claimed I never gave a timeframe...  you always get it wrong and mislead Shutter's forum..

 

I am not now saying it,, I have already said it.

Both fluctuations and oscillations were reported at 8:11..

 

 

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(edited)

No NickyB, I am not banned from Shutter's forum..

Georger steals my material here and posts it there with falsehoods, lies and distortions added..

That forces me to correct the record..  otherwise Georger doesn't exist, his 15 minutes were up many years ago. He is toxic and irrelevant. If he wasn't stealing my stuff for half his posts he'd have nothing to add.

As for the "pressure bump"..  I examined the FBI analysis and evidence and could not dispute it. So, my conclusion is that it is correct.

Nobody has come with any argument to challenge the FBI assessment, NOBODY.

All you guys have tossed out are baseless opinions.

You all claim the FBI got it wrong but nobody can show how or why... The western flightpath redux..

 

There has been no problem with others reposting stuff I have posted,, it is only Georger who consistently adds in lies, falsehoods and distortions... it is dishonest and misleading for Shutter's forum and the case in general.

Georger blames me for his banning from DZ years ago,, I wasn't here then my father suddenly died I and took years off the Cooper case. I had no part in any banning, never saw it, wasn't aware and still don't know why. It is just another lie from the most toxic person in the Cooper world.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

 

Q18:  Is there anything else you consider significant to the question of where the hijacker jumped?
A:  It was very dark, with virtually no ground reference except when we got in the Portland area.  We bounced around the clouds, with occasional breaks. The 727’s  slipstream initially overcame the aft stairs hydraulic system.  The stairs weren’t opening like Cooper needed. Cooper called me on the interphone while Tina was riding up front with us. Cooper had let Tina come to the front.  He yelled,  "slow it down!."  I stated back to Cooper, "OK."  And we did;  we slowed the plane. The oscillations continued, as I remember, but were smoother and we hadn’t heard anything from Cooper.  Bill called back to him (8:05) and he finally answered.  He said everything was “OK”. More time passed. And then suddenly came that “bump”. After the final "bump" which we felt with our ears, we all discussed it for awhile, waiting for another bump.  It never repeated, so we assumed that was his exit.  But we discussed this among ourselves before notifying NWA.  The truth is, we just didn't know for sure.  I just don't recall how much time lapsed between feeling the final "bump" and reporting it to NWA via radio.  That’s where the uncertainty has come from.  
But later we all thought that final bump was his exit.  

 

Oscillations were noticed before 8:05 (last comm with Cooper) and CONTINUED after 8:05....

 

A:  That’s a good question because We all agreed that the gauges were detecting a disruption of airflow, most likely caused by Cooper testing out the aft stairs.   But we all felt one physically distinguishable "bump" with our ears which came abruptly after we had been monitoring the gauges. We all felt it almost in unison, surprised, "there he goes!"  It was the largest bump by far, an abrupt pressure change. We all thought he had exited the aircraft at that point, because the gauges never detected any further major airflow disruptions after that ‘thud’. The re-test duplicated the oscillations and the pressure bump exactly. 

A physically distinguishable bump came abruptly after they had been motoring the gauges (since 8:05)..

Anderson also said they never detected any further major airflow disruptions after the thud,, not NONE.

 

There were minor oscillations monitored before and after 8:05, the physical "bump" was "the largest by far"...

 

A:  Q5.   Not really and it wasn’t exactly as you describe.  These were minor oscillations. We detected on the gauges only.  We just presumed pretty quickly that it was Cooper fiddling with the aft stairs but we weren’t one hundred percent sure because we were already flying dirty, with throttles up and fighting icing and weather.  A lot going on and it wasn’t totally smooth even before the oscillations started. What we noticed was the pattern of the oscillations was continuing and there was a very minor disruption of the slipstream. Scott said at first he wasn’t feeling anything for sure, then a little later he thought  there was more drag and the nose was deviating a little. When the final bump happened and the oscillations stopped that sealed it. But even then we weren’t sure and we waited before calling anybody. 

 

The context is the minor oscillations felt well before 8:11.... not at 8:11

 

At 8:11 the crew reported oscillations and fluctuations in the cabin... Anderson makes it clear there were minor oscillations well before 8:05 and after,, why report them at 8:11,,  because they had increased in frequency and magnitude just like the sled test. At 8:11 it was felt in the cabin....

 

and NO, the story hasn't changed.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

The 727-100 stair operation is different from the 200...

To lower the stairs the handle on the 100 is moved from the up detent pushed outward and a button on the top is pressed simultaneously. The 200 has no button.

There are two lights in the cockpit, a green means locked down and an amber means the handle is moved from the up detent and unlocked. The green light never came on.

The crew reported an airstair light on at 7:42, that indicated Cooper moved the handle from the up detent. It does not mean the stairs are opened, only that the handle is moved. Tina claimed she saw the red (amber) airstair light flash sometime later before Cooper's 8:05 comms. The Boeing test indicated the airstairs were successfully opened and retracted at speeds up to to 300 knots. NORJAK was well below that so it wasn't the speed.

Conclusion,,, Cooper did not have trouble with the stairs due to the speed of the aircraft. It is likely he initially failed to continuously press the button on the top of the handle while moving it outward. At 7:42 Cooper moved the handle from the up detent and the airstair light was activated in the cockpit. Later, he called to have the plane slowdown. The airstair light flashed again in the cockpit sometime prior to 8:05, that can only happen if Cooper moved the handle back to the up detent position then forward again. Remember, the light is activated by the handle not stairs open... green light is fully extended and locked down, the stairs were never fully extended and locked down. This time he must have figured out to simultaneously press the button and move the handle to open the airstairs.

Also, Anderson stated the oscillations were smoother after 8:05 and they slowed down the plane.. Cooper was likely standing on the stairs between 8:05 and 8:10/11. The sled test showed very little change on the gauges with a man standing on the stairs.

 

littlepresschangewalkstairs.jpg.69d4b3343129eaac943f9b6cd1ddb9e9.jpg.77f7c9093a1e29e713f36960ace9c97f.jpg

boeingtestpressure.jpeg.385996e827902a029edc313016ff1463.jpeg.ea4d1db3e45b62fe5365a5629f41c092.jpeg

lightflashedtwicecoop.jpeg.b8b2041a0995aa60f2c7fcf8fbccfe53.jpeg

tinaredlight.jpeg.bd889d3ba71868279a426561585991cb.jpeg

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Regarding the tie...

Obviously it is not known, so this is speculative, but...

I have to lean towards a thrift store purchase. As careful as Cooper was with all the other evidence, it seems an unlikely mistake to leave something behind that could be traced back to him. Or to anyone who knew him.

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2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Regarding the tie...

Obviously it is not known, so this is speculative, but...

I have to lean towards a thrift store purchase. As careful as Cooper was with all the other evidence, it seems an unlikely mistake to leave something behind that could be traced back to him. Or to anyone who knew him.

Disagree with the argument based on other things he left. He wasn't so careful. That keeps getting repeated but it isn't true.

Cooper left his drinking glass, magazines, handed money to the stews, left his cigarettes, cut up chute.. all potential print ID. He only really took the notes.

The matchbook he took had notes written on it. 

In 1971 forensics, there wasn't an expectation that they could link the tie to anyone like today.

 

Granted, we don't know where the tie came from but the fact that he left it doesn't support the argument it wasn't his.

 

Hahneman also left a tie behind on his plane..

 

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5 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Those are all good points. I only have one major problem with Hahneman being Cooper. This is it:

He was arrested and convicted for a hijacking only a short time after Cooper pulled off HIS hijacking. He was sent to Federal prison. His face appeared in newspapers and on TV news from coast to coast. He was IN JAIL for some years. 

So...in all that time...and with all that coverage...and sitting in Federal prison for another hijacking...why did no one in the public, or in the FBI, ever manage to link him to the Cooper crime. This seems inconceivable that the FBI would miss that. The investigation into Cooper was going full-bore, full-speed, when Hahneman did his thing. How could they possibly miss him as being Cooper, if he was indeed Cooper? 

Seems really odd doesn't it... I have an answer for it but just not ready to make it public.

 

 

 

 

 

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