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DB Cooper

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3 hours ago, Divalent said:

(forgive me for asking questions that I assume have already been addressed.)  How do you know the dummy reserve couldn't be attached to a harness? The wikipedia DB Cooper paged linked to an FBI page that only said it was "sewn shut". I would think if you have a mock-up for ground training that it would be important to be able to attach it to a (dummy) harness, so you can feel the weight and bulk, see your altimeter (often mounted on top of the reserve), etc. Otherwise it's just something to look at, which doesn't seem worth the trouble to create, given that there were plenty real reserves at DZs to look at. So has it been established that it lacked the ability to be attached to a harness?

Why would he have wasted time and effort discarding it if he recognized it was a dummy? Unlike other things he apparently tossed, he didn't bring this on the plane, so it wasn't something that might have value in IDing him that he needed to get rid of. (Canvas wouldn't have finger prints on them.)

I suppose he could have cannibalized the good reserve for lines before he noticed that the other wasn't real (and so he knew he'd be jumping without a reserve), but still doesn't explain why he later tossed it. (Maybe he only noticed it at the last minute, as putting the reserve on would be one of the last things he would do after getting geared up, and threw it out in frustration when he finally discovered it wasn't real.)

 

If the missing dummy reserve was "sewn shut", how did Cooper get it open?  And if he opened it, he must have known something was wrong with it.  Again, nothing is known for certain about the parachutes except that there were two backpacks and two reserves.

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This is the Cooper case,,,, very very little is certain.

The chute descriptions come from Cossey who also made conflicting and false statements.

We also have to sort out the conflicting serial numbers for the back chute left on the plane vs the one returned to Hayden.

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

This is the Cooper case,,,, very very little is certain.

The chute descriptions come from Cossey who also made conflicting and false statements.

We also have to sort out the conflicting serial numbers for the back chute left on the plane vs the one returned to Hayden.

FlyJack has got it right!

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(edited)

I wrote a fairly detailed post a while back about the nature of the jump, don't see a need to repeat it all, I'm sure it can be found. Divalent's concerns about the jump are accurate, but the bottom line is that it's all speculative because it's not known whether Cooper had experience or the knowledge to consider such things.

A couple quick points about the gear for Divalent - The reserves, even the dummy one, would have the attachment clips, because that's just how they're made, and he is correct that the dummy would need to attach to a harness for proper training. But the back chutes were not sport mains, but pilot emergency bailout rigs, and as such would not have the D-rings for the reserves to attach, because they ARE reserves. Also, I think it's been established about the dummy reserve that it's not the container that was sewn shut, but the canopy inside, to make it easier to repack between training uses.

It's been speculated that Cooper might have tried to use the dummy reserve container to hold some of the money.

 

Edited by dudeman17

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LOL! So he asks for 2 mains and 2 reserves, and the FBI gives him 2 bailout rigs (that can't take a reserve) and 2 reserves?  (So the fact that one "reserve" was actually a dummy is a complete moot point, as both were useless with a bailout rig.)

Man! Never trust the FBI!

I think it's very likely that he had at least some skydiving experience, but was not a rigger-level. I think a somewhat experienced skydiver would not have immediately recognized that the main rigs were bailouts, and by the time they were back up in the air and he figured it out, it was probably too late to make the plane land yet again and get proper equipment. He had enough experience, tho, to gamble with jumping without a reserve.

But given that they fucked him on the reserves, is it not unreasonable for them to have also fucked him on the mains? (IMO, the question is whether they gave him a 50% chance of surviving, or a 0% chance.)

The moral for me is: "Never trust the FBI!"
 

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(edited)
8 hours ago, Divalent said:

LOL! So he asks for 2 mains and 2 reserves, and the FBI gives him 2 bailout rigs (that can't take a reserve) and 2 reserves?  (So the fact that one "reserve" was actually a dummy is a complete moot point, as both were useless with a bailout rig.)

Man! Never trust the FBI!

I think it's very likely that he had at least some skydiving experience, but was not a rigger-level. I think a somewhat experienced skydiver would not have immediately recognized that the main rigs were bailouts, and by the time they were back up in the air and he figured it out, it was probably too late to make the plane land yet again and get proper equipment. He had enough experience, tho, to gamble with jumping without a reserve.

But given that they fucked him on the reserves, is it not unreasonable for them to have also fucked him on the mains? (IMO, the question is whether they gave him a 50% chance of surviving, or a 0% chance.)

The moral for me is: "Never trust the FBI!"
 

The evidence strongly suggests Cooper had military jump experience.

Based on his estimated age of about mid 40's,, potentially.. WW2, Korea thru Vietnam..

Edited by FLYJACK

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16 hours ago, Divalent said:

But given that they fucked him on the reserves, is it not unreasonable for them to have also fucked him on the mains? (IMO, the question is whether they gave him a 50% chance of surviving, or a 0% chance.)

It's also been speculated that the reason he asked for multiple rigs might be so that they would not give him sabotaged gear for fear that he might make someone else jump. Getting the bailout rigs may have just been ignorance on the part of the FBI or NWA or whoever was getting them. A big mystery is how he ended up with the dummy reserve, because Emerick or whoever at Sky Sports grabbed them should have instantly recognized that.

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(edited)

This isn’t complicated. The oscillations are different than the pressure bump. The oscillations occurred for some time and concluded with the pressure bump. The pressure bump occurred when Cooper jumped.

When did the pressure bump occur? Nobody knows for sure. Anyone who suggests they know when the pressure bump occurred is either mistaken or lying. 

We know it occurred after 8:12 based on the report to NWO and prior to passing over the Columbia based on crew statements (“lights of the Portland suburbs coming up”).

All we can conclude from the information we have is that Cooper jumped some time between 8:12 and 8:17. Any further claim of precision is baseless. 

Edited by Chaucer

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On 6/18/2021 at 4:01 PM, RobertMBlevins said:

Yeah...you are right. I wondered why Emerick did that too

Well you were the one who was supposed to try and find that out for us. Then you spent quite some time refusing to divulge what you had learned. More recently you inferred that you never actually talked to the (Sky Sports) guy. At this point it's hard to tell what to believe.

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48 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

This isn’t complicated. The oscillations are different than the pressure bump. The oscillations occurred for some time and concluded with the pressure bump. The pressure bump occurred when Cooper jumped.

When did the pressure bump occur? Nobody knows for sure. Anyone who suggests they know when the pressure bump occurred is either mistaken or lying. 

We know it occurred after 8:12 based on the report to NWO and prior to passing over the Columbia based on crew statements (“lights of the Portland suburbs coming up”).

All we can conclude from the information we have is that Cooper jumped some time between 8:12 and 8:17. Any further claim of precision is baseless. 

Yes and no...

The pressure bump is a BIGGER oscillation... The crew used the term "pressure bump" in retrospect.

The crew identified when it occurred. About 8:11 and no later than 8:15.

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That’s not accurate, FJ. There’s no evidence that the pressure bump was merely a “bigger oscillation”.

Second, the pressure bump was first reported at 8:12. The crew later said that when it occurred “the lights of Portland were visible” and “ they had not yet crossed the Columbia. They crossed the Columbia at 8:17.

So, the jump occurred between 8:12 and 8:17. Based on the money find, I speculate that it was closer to 8:17.

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(edited)
1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

That’s not accurate, FJ. There’s no evidence that the pressure bump was merely a “bigger oscillation”.

Second, the pressure bump was first reported at 8:12. The crew later said that when it occurred “the lights of Portland were visible” and “ they had not yet crossed the Columbia. They crossed the Columbia at 8:17.

So, the jump occurred between 8:12 and 8:17. Based on the money find, I speculate that it was closer to 8:17.

It is accurate. The oscillations were "pressure bumps" measured on the Cabin rate of change pressure gauge.

This was replicated by the sled test,, the frequency and duration of fluctuations increased after the sled was dropped. "reacted violently"

sledtestaa.jpg.74ef8562d5bca5d9889d5d047a6fac21.jpg

1965947843_fluctuationsfeltFBI23113.jpeg.d4293d33d77a6de66917d0eae1c1e86f.jpeg

 

Anderson said, referring to the pressure bump..  the "largest bump by far"..  so more than one and the largest.
 

"but it wasn’t a one time event but a series of fluctuations which attracted our attention.  I saw it first then alerted Scott and Bill, ending in a single pressure event we felt in our ears, and nothing following, not even more fluctuations. We waited to see if something more would happen but it didn’t."

 

Crew believes bump occurred at 8:10 certain it was before 8:15.

 

 

crewcertain815.jpeg

 

 

Stairs stable with man on them and very little change noted on Pressure gauge.

sledt.jpeg.62233c7237f48e76eb7a8d41a00bb16b.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Chaucer is trying to make a name for himself by creating doubt. There is nothing original in his statements, posts, or podcast episode. Flyjack’s information clearly makes Chaucer look like an amateur. Apparently no one at the dbcooper forum thinks his theories are original either. Let people like Flyjack and Robert Blevins discuss the details of the case. You joined too late. 

Edited by Para-DZ

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Hey, I remember reading somewhere (I think the D. B. Cooper forum) about an incident where someone saw someone carrying something walking along the side of a road on the night of the Cooper hijacking... anyone know what I am talking about or if it (or anything similar) is mentioned in the FBI files at all? I would really appreciate any insight.

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10 hours ago, Para-DZ said:

Chaucer is trying to make a name for himself by creating doubt. There is nothing original in his statements, posts, or podcast episode. Flyjack’s information clearly makes Chaucer look like an amateur. Apparently no one at the dbcooper forum thinks his theories are original either. Let people like Flyjack and Robert Blevins discuss the details of the case. You joined too late. 

Nice boots, man. 

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9 hours ago, Coopericane said:

Hey, I remember reading somewhere (I think the D. B. Cooper forum) about an incident where someone saw someone carrying something walking along the side of a road on the night of the Cooper hijacking... anyone know what I am talking about or if it (or anything similar) is mentioned in the FBI files at all? I would really appreciate any insight.

There was...

walking1.jpeg.84928af0ad40cb632d4d3286213d2a9e.jpeg

walking2.jpeg.8cdf15097298454c3931182ca877362f.jpeg

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FJ,

My point is this:  you had oscillations which concluded in one large “bump” or “pressure event”.

This large pressure bump happened the moment Cooper bailed as evidenced by the sled test. The oscillations occurred over a period of time - apparently from the point Cooper began down the aftstairs. This isn‘t a novel notion, but a commonly held one. 

The oscillations were reported at 8:11/8:12. The pressure bump - the final pressure event indicating Cooper had left the plane - was never reported during the flight.

We don’t know the exact time that occurred except that it occurred after 8:12 and before the plane crossed the Columbia at 8:17. 

I’m not being argumentative here, but these are general facts of the case. 

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In a previous post I stated that there were minor oscillations prior, not felt...

Anderson said the oscillations stopped after the "bump",  IMO, he is referring to the bigger ones. The "violent" increase and the big one that was felt. 

There would still have been minor oscillations on the gauge, not felt just as before.

There is no disagreement with Anderson.

The problem is the vague use of the terms.. all oscillations are pressure bumps but the so called "pressure bump" was the last biggest one of a "violent" series.

 

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8 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

FJ,

My point is this:  you had oscillations which concluded in one large “bump” or “pressure event”.

This large pressure bump happened the moment Cooper bailed as evidenced by the sled test. The oscillations occurred over a period of time - apparently from the point Cooper began down the aftstairs. This isn‘t a novel notion, but a commonly held one. 

The oscillations were reported at 8:11/8:12. The pressure bump - the final pressure event indicating Cooper had left the plane - was never reported during the flight.

We don’t know the exact time that occurred except that it occurred after 8:12 and before the plane crossed the Columbia at 8:17. 

I’m not being argumentative here, but these are general facts of the case. 

The problem here is the vague and imprecise language. Oscillations/fluctuations are pressure bumps but the "pressure bump" referred to by the crew in retrospect was an attempt to ID the BIGGEST and last one felt by the crew when Cooper likely jumped. At the time time the crew wasn't sure what was happening.

Anderson claimed it was the largest "pressure bump" by far... so what were the other ones? smaller pressure bumps or oscillations or both..  pressure bumps are oscillations. However, they differ in magnitude and frequency. 

The sled test indicated that the Cooper jump was identical.

The oscillations occurred over time but were not equal, the ones prior to the jump were minor, gauge only. The crew did not report these minor oscillations. They reported the "bigger" ones.

The sled test indicated the fluctuations/oscillations increased violently (magnitude and frequency) when the sled left. Later labelled the "pressure bump". This "violent" increase was the 8:11 transmission of oscillations by the crew.

The crew used the term "pressure bump" in retrospect to identify the last big oscillation felt when they believed Cooper left. 

And the crew believed 8:10 but were certain it was before 8:15.

Also, when the crew claimed they could see the "glow" lights of Portland, IMO that would include Vancouver.. I don't think you could separate the light glow of Vancouver and Portland. In other words, you wouldn't see only the the glow of Portland while over the glow of Vancouver. The crew must have been North of Vancouver, not over the Columbia.

Conclusion,, the FBI got it right and Cooper jumped between about 8:10/11 and 8:15 latest, not over the Columbia. Tom's diatoms also indicate the money did not land in the Columbia.

 

I have been working on an entirely new TBAR theory that,,

maintains the FBI flightpath

maintains the FBI LZ

introduces the money into the Columbia R in Spring when the money find spot is underwater

 

 

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I agree that the terminology is imprecise. Still, I think it is fine to conclude that the so-called “oscillations” were created by Cooper making his way out on to the aftstairs, and the “pressure bump” was created by Cooper jumping from the aircraft.

I don’t think Cooper ended up in the Columbia that night. However, I think it is quite possible that Cooper and/or the money ended up near the Columbia - perhaps along the riverbank or one of the islands. Then the waters rose during the floods and transported the money to Tena Bar via debris. 

So, with the imprecise times and overall margin of error, Cooper could have jumped near the banks of the Columbia. 

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35 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I agree that the terminology is imprecise. Still, I think it is fine to conclude that the so-called “oscillations” were created by Cooper making his way out on to the aftstairs, and the “pressure bump” was created by Cooper jumping from the aircraft.

I don’t think Cooper ended up in the Columbia that night. However, I think it is quite possible that Cooper and/or the money ended up near the Columbia - perhaps along the riverbank or one of the islands. Then the waters rose during the floods and transported the money to Tena Bar via debris. 

So, with the imprecise times and overall margin of error, Cooper could have jumped near the banks of the Columbia. 

Of course it is imprecise... that isn't even debatable.

grayoscillations.jpeg.e87a229a42a849286775166bd6da3322.jpeg.da685353af91bf5199cbf79118581ee1.jpeg

 

The "identical" results of the sled test don't support your claim... 

The statements of the crew don't support your claim...

Your claim is conjecture. Nothing wrong with conjecture but that is what it is.

 

Is it possible the money landed on the banks of the Columbia, sure anything is "possible" but it is unlikely and requires a rejection of evidence that Cooper did. It is even possible dropped money could have fallen off the stairs after Cooper jumped,,, there is no evidence to support the claim that Cooper landed in the Columbia or on its banks.

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35 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I agree that the terminology is imprecise. Still, I think it is fine to conclude that the so-called “oscillations” were created by Cooper making his way out on to the aftstairs, and the “pressure bump” was created by Cooper jumping from the aircraft.

I don’t think Cooper ended up in the Columbia that night. However, I think it is quite possible that Cooper and/or the money ended up near the Columbia - perhaps along the riverbank or one of the islands. Then the waters rose during the floods and transported the money to Tena Bar via debris. 

So, with the imprecise times and overall margin of error, Cooper could have jumped near the banks of the Columbia. 

Of course it is imprecise... that isn't even debatable.

grayoscillations.jpeg.e87a229a42a849286775166bd6da3322.jpeg.da685353af91bf5199cbf79118581ee1.jpeg

 

The "identical" results of the sled test don't support your claim... 

The statements of the crew don't support your claim...

Your claim is conjecture. Nothing wrong with conjecture but that is what it is.

 

Is it possible the money landed on the banks of the Columbia, sure anything is "possible" but it is unlikely and requires a rejection of evidence that Cooper did. It is even possible dropped money could have fallen off the stairs after Cooper jumped,,, there is no evidence to support the claim that Cooper landed in the Columbia or on its banks.

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On 6/22/2021 at 9:25 AM, Chaucer said:

FJ,

My point is this:  you had oscillations which concluded in one large “bump” or “pressure event”.

This large pressure bump happened the moment Cooper bailed as evidenced by the sled test. The oscillations occurred over a period of time - apparently from the point Cooper began down the aftstairs. This isn‘t a novel notion, but a commonly held one. 

The oscillations were reported at 8:11/8:12. The pressure bump - the final pressure event indicating Cooper had left the plane - was never reported during the flight.

We don’t know the exact time that occurred except that it occurred after 8:12 and before the plane crossed the Columbia at 8:17. 

I’m not being argumentative here, but these are general facts of the case. 

Chaucer- but you are being argumentative. That’s what you do. Do you think people can’t figure that out by reading your posts on here and the DB Cooper Forum? 

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