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DB Cooper

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Interesting.  From personal C-130 experience, I knew cargo doors/ramp can be opened/lowered in flight from the flight deck. You got me thinking about the other tactical airlifters used in SEA, particularly those involved in airdrop (cargo and personnel) missions, however.  So I decided to investigate if the cargo door/ramp of either the C-123 Provider or C-7 Caribou could be lowered from the flight deck. As we can see from this page copied from the C-7 flight (-1) manual, they were operable from the cockpit.  I can't find a free copy of the C-123 flight manual on line, but I'd bet the Provider flight deck crew had the same ability.  That would be easy enough to confirm with a visit to the NMUSAF research library, once they start letting people in after COVID restrictions are lifted.

I guess this means Cooper could have had experience on the Caribou, and/or probably the C-123, as well.  

Screenshot_20210425-210222_Drive.jpg

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24 minutes ago, MartinBaker said:

Interesting.  From personal C-130 experience, I knew cargo doors/ramp can be opened/lowered in flight from the flight deck. You got me thinking about the other tactical airlifters used in SEA, particularly those involved in airdrop (cargo and personnel) missions, however.  So I decided to investigate if the cargo door/ramp of either the C-123 Provider or C-7 Caribou could be lowered from the flight deck. As we can see from this page copied from the C-7 flight (-1) manual, they were operable from the cockpit.  I can't find a free copy of the C-123 flight manual on line, but I'd bet the Provider flight deck crew had the same ability.  That would be easy enough to confirm with a visit to the NMUSAF research library, once they start letting people in after COVID restrictions are lifted.

I guess this means Cooper could have had experience on the Caribou, and/or probably the C-123, as well.  

Screenshot_20210425-210222_Drive.jpg

C-123.. manual

looks like rear controls only

https://buckeyewing.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/c-123b-9-loading-and-unloading-reduced-size.pdf

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38 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yeah, I saw the cargo handling manual but didn't bother looking at it. Hard to tell from the -9 what controls are available on the flight deck.  I'll call the curator tomorrow at the museum and see if I can make an appointment to look at the flight manual. At this point I'm not sure what difference it makes if there were two or three tactical cargo a/c with that capacity, however.

To me the C-7 is a far more intriguing possibility since they were US Army aircraft until being transferred to the USAF in the late 60s.  

 

 

 

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(edited)
10 hours ago, MartinBaker said:

Yeah, I saw the cargo handling manual but didn't bother looking at it. Hard to tell from the -9 what controls are available on the flight deck.  I'll call the curator tomorrow at the museum and see if I can make an appointment to look at the flight manual. At this point I'm not sure what difference it makes if there were two or three tactical cargo a/c with that capacity, however.

To me the C-7 is a far more intriguing possibility since they were US Army aircraft until being transferred to the USAF in the late 60s.  

 

 

 

I lean toward a bigger plane like the C-130,, it is pressurized and dropped cargo and troops.

Cooper asked for 10,000 ft, the unpressurized limit and gear and flaps down. Flaps down and gear down is the low level drop configuration for the C-130.

Of course, It could be "experience" with more than one type plane in Vietnam/Korea.

Edited by FLYJACK

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7 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

There are only two points here regarding Cooper and any possible experience with airstairs on a 727. None of them necessarily point to experience with airstairs controls themselves. Or...any experience with other planes that had such systems. 

1) Cooper specifically asked at the Portland NWA ticket counter if the flight to Seattle was a 727. Since it later became obvious the stairs were a part of his plan, this only means he knew a 727 had such stairs. Anybody who ever saw a 727 sitting on the ground and the passengers deplaning on stairs instead of a jetway would know that. 

2) He knew a 727 had airstairs. He didn't know how to lower them. This information, (how to lower) would only be known through a physical search at a library back in those days, (no internet) or if someone gave him a general idea on how it was done, such as "There's a lever or something in the back..." 

Other News: After I posted the videos back there, within minutes, 'Johnnie Greene' made the worst comment he's ever done about me over at Bruce Smith's Mountain News. It was soooo bad (*laughs*) I took a screenshot of it. Went back today and Bruce had removed it. We know that 'JG' is a prime member and heavy contributor at Shutter's DB Cooper Forum. At WordPress, your comments to someone's article cannot be removed except by the owner of the blog. But the nature of the text and a few other things told us who JG really is. We figure it is retired university instructor Jerry W, aka 'Georger'. We were pretty sure before this time, but now we are convinced it is him. He's the only one who comes after me that persistently and uses the syntax and phrasing he does in posts. His last post was very much the same as ones he used to do at the Cooper Forum with the same theme. It's a little hard to explain to lay people, but when you read enough of peoples' writing when they use their own identity, as he does at the Cooper Forum, it is not that hard to figure out similar writing is being done by the same person, even if they try using a false identity to hide themselves. Especially when you've been reading their 'stuff' for years, both in the known versions and the false identity versions. And frankly....after editing more than 50 books for other authors over the years...it is a skill you learn. A lay example would be if you heard any line from any Shakespeare work. You would know right away who wrote it. For a long time opinion among the AB staff was split. We figured the 'Johnnie Greene' posts were coming from one of three possible people: Shutter himself, Georger, and one vote went to Eric Ulis. But after taking the JG posts at Mountain News as a whole and comparing them to attacks that were done years ago in a similar vein over at the Cooper Forum...we decided it had to be Georger. B) What we figure is either Bruce decided Georger had gone too far this time...or Georger regretted his post and asked Bruce to take it down. You guys are not helping yourselves by doing these things, you know. It also shows you have no respect for Bruce at all. I mean...if you're going to lie about me and come after me personally...you should at least man up about it a bit. As far as Bruce, Shutter, Georger, 'Marla,' and the whole Peanut Gallery goes, Bruce is the enabler and Shutter is his assistant. I say this because Bruce, being the owner of the WordPress site, has access to the email address and IP address of anyone who comments...and Shutter has the same thing with his forum members. So they know perfectly well who is who, and what is going on. So they are ENABLERS, like the guy who keeps buying the liquor for an alcoholic, or dropping off boxes of Crispy Cremes to someone trying to lose weight. They aren't fooling anybody. 

We picked up two more people for the Cooper Party today. Since we only have six weeks until Decision Day, I am now encouraging anyone who inquires on attending to bring their friends along...and I tell them that if we don't reach our goal on attendees by June 5th or therabouts...we would have to cancel. I also encourage them to spread the word on social media. 

I did NOT enjoy withdrawing our support for this year's Cooper Con...but if you look at the entire picture of things...you can understand why we did. Any reasonable person turns his back on baloney, lies about others, and hatred. There is enough of that going around already. I won't have any part of it. If it continues, I will definitely lay it all out there for the public to decide, both in video and in articles. I would rather NOT do that. AB of Seattle does stand to gain if you succeed this year. But you have made it impossible for us to support your event, as well as one of your main speakers at this event. Not my fault...YOURS. 

 

Airstairs were not all that uncommon, especially on narrow body, short haul commercial airliners.  Airliners so equipped, such as the 727, DC-9, and 737, often flew to/from smaller airports where wheeled stairways and/or jetways were at a premium.  I'm sure the Boeings and McD's of the would have used this capability as a marketing point.

 

Just to clarify, there were/are no airstairs on the tactical airlifters I've mentioned previously (unless you count the crew entry door at the front of the aircraft.)  The cargo door(s)/ramp system is used primarily to load and unload cargo/passengers on the ground, and for cargo airdrops. While it is possible to jump from the open door/ramp in flight, paratroopers usually jump from doors on the side of the rear of the a/c specifically designed for that purpose.  

197931-L-MTQ55-820.jpg

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(edited)

Hey, I know Martin Andrade reads this board and he is looking into the Egg Harbor suspect, so I thought I would ask here if he (or anyone else) can compile the new information about the EHS from the latest 302s? I first heard of him from here https://martinandrade.wordpress.com/2020/11/24/db-cooper-the-fbis-unresolved-suspects/ and it seems like we have some new info - I am pretty sure the same guy is mentioned a few times in the latest release, but I am not very confident in my ability to interpret the files accurately.

Edited by Coopericane
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15 hours ago, Coopericane said:

Hey, I know Martin Andrade reads this board and he is looking into the Egg Harbor suspect, so I thought I would ask here if he (or anyone else) can compile the new information about the EHS from the latest 302s? I first heard of him from here https://martinandrade.wordpress.com/2020/11/24/db-cooper-the-fbis-unresolved-suspects/ and it seems like we have some new info - I am pretty sure the same guy is mentioned a few times in the latest release, but I am not very confident in my ability to interpret the files accurately.

There were some new details about EHS, the biggest was his release from TWA after the hijacking and his lack of an alibi during the hijacking... We think.

The files are so heavily redacted we can't be sure. It also appears as though they had EHS' work, military and education history as well.

Edited by Andrade1812

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9 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

There were some new details about EHS, the biggest was his release from TWA after the hijacking and his lack of an alibi during the hijacking... We think.

The files are so heavily redacted we can't be sure. It also appears as though they had EHS' work, military and education history as well.

Thanks. This guy and the Shelton one are really interesting to me and I appreciate your previous write-up on them. Here's hoping we learn more about both of them in the future...

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(edited)
On 4/24/2021 at 11:16 AM, FLYJACK said:

Evidence indicates Cooper had aviation knowledge but not necessarily the 727. He had to have Tina show him how to lower the rear stairs and also thought the crew had control over the rear stairs. He got the range wrong.

We don't know if Cooper actually used the term "crew meals". The FBI files state that he requested or wanted crew meals not that he used the exact term. He may have, Cooper definitely had aviation experience.

He also used the term interphone which would also be pilot lingo. More likely cooper was a pilot in ww2 or Korean War as that’s what they called the comm system on the b-17 bombers. During the Jet age they used the term intercom when referring to the comm systems. He also said he had bennies (Benzedrine) to help keep the crew and pilots up if needed. Benzedrine is known for being used by fighter pilots in ww2 to keep them up on there missions. I don’t think Cooper was a commercial pilot but probably wanted to be. To me cooper has all the makings of a shot down fighter pilot in ww2. That would of gave him the experience and courage to attempt this daring caper. It also ties in nicely with the Dan Cooper comic. As major Dan Cooper was frequently shot down piloting aircrafts in the pages of tin tin. Now as far as coopers level of 727 expertise there is a case for and against it. Fly has done a good job pointing out the against let me make a case for the for. Cooper knew where the oxygen bottles were located on the 727 now maybe that’s nothing to special not sure, were all oxygen  bottles located in the same place on every plane regardless of the aircraft or did it vary depending on the AC? Cooper seemed to know a lot about the fueling of the 727. He knew the time it should take to fill er up and if you believe Loren Peterson who was working for nwo that night he also knew how you should fuel the plane for the configuration he requested which is basically flying what they called a dirty airplane. He requested a certain balance of the two fuel tanks. According to Loren the guys working freight for nwo that night were very impressed. Now this hasn’t been corroborated in any of the 302’s but LP seems credible to me and I don’t see any reason for him to lie. Another big thing for me is the fact that the pilot BR said himself he thought cooper knew what he was doing or as the kids say these days Cooper knew what’s up. Now probably the biggest thing for me  was his intel on the capabilities of the aft stairs. He knew that they could take off with them down and that they could be lowered while in the air. Cooper IMO had to be certain of this if not as 377 has said he would of been stepping into an aluminum jail cell. These two capabilities were unbeknownst to everybody on the ground at SeaTac. They also were concerned and unsure if you could fly the 727 dirty with the aft stairs down. They had to call one of the higher ups at Boeing Commercial Airplanes, a gentlemen by the name of Peter Gallimore. Who told them yes you could fly it safely that way. The whole Air America and SAT angle is nice but the only problem with that is if Cooper had knowledge of those air drops he would of known you could jump the plane but he would still have no idea about the operation of a commercial 727 aft stairwell as the moded 727 had the stairs removed and replaced with a sheet metal ramp that didn’t move or could be controlled. For my money if they had to call gallimore at Boeing then cooper had some advanced technical knowledge on the operational capabilities of those aft stairs and that to me trumps the against and puts me in the camp of cooper did have 727 expertise. 

Edited by NickyNorJack

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12 hours ago, Coopericane said:

Thanks. This guy and the Shelton one are really interesting to me and I appreciate your previous write-up on them. Here's hoping we learn more about both of them in the future...

I and a few other guys are trying to identify these two people. If we can get their names... well, that'd be huge. We're hoping to find local sources in Shelton and in Egg Harbor.

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(edited)

This might be of interest... I think it's implied that the Egg Harbor guy worked at Braniff International Airlines from April 1965 to July 1965... resigned for "personal reasons", but there's another possible reason (?) redacted. I am pretty sure it's the guy because the timeline matches up with his employment records from the last 302s as well as mentioning the same field group. 

Might be more about this guy in there, it's so redacted it's hard to know who is being talked about though, I was just able to make the connection here because of luck.

 

 

*I confused United Airlines and Braniff International Airlines, the EHS guy seems to have worked for the latter - my bad entirely. 

Here are the FBI pages in question -
The Egg Harbor suspect's redacted employment history as seen in batch #57, pgs 27 & 28:2051077409_DB1.JPG.502a22a3852abcca6178dd0d63279a78.JPG

1844193250_DB2.JPG.7b86cb07ca5e7f1b64b34c8322613a2b.JPG

And then the new bit in the latest release (#58, pg 12) I found that I thought was interesting: 1289890680_DB3.JPG.d7d1e38325aa83808126ace27daafb20.JPG

It looks like a match to me for the first list on the EHS' employment history.

Edited by Coopericane
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(edited)
36 minutes ago, MartinBaker said:

Has anyone ever interviewed, or even identified by name, the F-106 pilot(s) who gave chase to the 727 the night of the hijacking?

According to a member of the F-106 Delta Dart group on Facebook, the lead pilot was Capt. Frank Loesch and the wingman was Capt. Roy Allen Keyt. 

Frank Loesch may be still alive. It was reported that he had intended to retire to Texas. There is a Frank Mae Loesch, aged about 87, listed in the white pages for Galveston, Texas. Roy Keyt died in a mid-air collision on 03.03.1992.

To the best of my knowledge, they were never interviewed.

Edited by DFS346
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1 hour ago, DFS346 said:

According to a member of the F-106 Delta Dart group on Facebook, the lead pilot was Capt. Frank Loesch and the wingman was Capt. Roy Allen Keyt. 

Frank Loesch may be still alive. It was reported that he had intended to retire to Texas. There is a Frank Mae Loesch, aged about 87, listed in the white pages for Galveston, Texas. Roy Keyt died in a mid-air collision on 03.03.1992.

To the best of my knowledge, they were never interviewed.

Very cool, thanks.  I contacted the F-106 Association and was told they didn't know who the pilots were.

Maybe I'll give him a call. 

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(edited)

A retired USAF colonel responded to my enquiry on the F-106 Delta Dart group. I think that he will not mind if I share his recollections, as follows:

"Though a squadron pilot with the 318th the night of Flight 305, I like all of my squadron mates were at a formal dining-in at the McChord Officers Club.  We heard of course that our alert aircraft has been scrambled and subsequently learned that they were training a commercial aircraft that has been hijacked.  Frankly, we hadn’t ever heard to that point of an aircraft hijacking.  We subsequently learned of the DB Cooper connection in the days that followed. 

I do recall that the weather that evening was awful!  It was one of the Northwest’s better storms and I recall discussing our concern for our alert pilots having to fly on such an evening. 

...  My recollection was that one of our majors, Frank Loesch was leading the flight, but can’t recall who the other pilot might have been. [DFS346: another source identified that pilot as Roy Allen Keyt.]

I know too how much difficulty they had trailing the commercial airliner because of how slow it was flying.  The F-106 did not like speeds below 200 knots.  Any alerion movement below that speed would likely lead to a stall and subsequent spin.  Very bad in that kind of weather and as low to the ground as they apparently were.  Judge they probably had to have their gear down to stay safely behind 305.  Having the gear down greatly reduced the possibility of the stall-spin scenario,

Judge you are aware that after that evening we held an annual DB dining-in for many years to come…proving there’s a silver lining in most things.

Wish I could provide more detail at present but the memories are not as clear as they once were.  I’ve also not been in contact with any of my squadron mates in the years since so can’t at present connect with them for more detail." 

Re-reading this, I note that the two pilots were majors (not captains) at the time.

Edited by DFS346
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On 5/4/2021 at 3:54 PM, MartinBaker said:

Maybe I'll give him a call. 

In November 2020 I wrote to the Frank Mae Loesch who is listed in Galveston, Texas. Around January this year I wrote to Dr Ellen Keyt, daughter of the late Lt. Col. Roy Keyt. So far I did not receive a response. 

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(edited)

Himmelsbach referred to the money as in straps of 100's given to Cooper..

 

at 6:35

 

Ralph Himmelsbach

“There were 10,000 twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of 100 bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands.”

 

 

 

A "strap" or a "packet" is 100 bills. Straps refers to bank banded. Packets can be rubber banded or bank banded.

Ulis now claims after talking to Brian that the money was discovered as three separate "straps" and not a single brick,, as far I know this was always believed.

 

Eric is disproving a claim that nobody ever had. Nobody ever claimed the money was found as 1 "brick".

 

What isn't known is if initially the money arrived on TBAR as one rubber banded "bundle" of straps/packets.

The FBI claimed the money was from one bundle and money was in the same order.

The money was given to Cooper in packets of 100 which were rubber banded into bundles.

If the money arrived as one bundle as it was given to Cooper, when the rubber bands deteriorated and broke the straps/packets would have separated appearing independent just as Brian described.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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