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DB Cooper

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4 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

You cannot be sure that anything Kaye may have now is actually evidentiary. The only source of DNA you can even remotely trust are the original results obtained by the FBI from the tie.

NOT TRUE...

The method for extracting DNA from fabric is using sticky tape.. Tom Kaye used sticky stubs all over the tie,,,,  but the big factor here is modern DNA tech vs old.... 

 

The DNA the FBI has can only eliminate,, modern advancements in DNA tech would provide a better sample to compare against suspects.

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32 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

As a website for information and discussion, they are useful to a degree. But some of their most prolific members are a bit phony. They present one face at the Cooper Forum, and use anonymous identities elsewhere to attack others. Here's one good example. When you get there, just read downward and keep a barf bag handy. B) 

I've already predicted that allowing such things on your own website, especially if you are one of the main speakers, will come back to bite them before their convention in November. When you are trying to sell tickets to a Cooper event at more than twenty dollars a seat...it is bad policy to engage in hatred, lies, and rhetoric beforehand. 

I've read a lot of the forum but not as much of the site you linked to.  The DB Cooper Forum has good information but there are a couple of arrogant members who argue and don't really stick to the facts.

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Long time lurker, I think I posted once maybe ten years ago.  

Today I received an email from a former colleague relating the story of a retired Delta pilot named Hoover who claims Cooper was a former Delta pilot who changed his name from Carter to Sandness. Lots of backstory to go with the claim, including Carter/Sandness allegedly having a brother named Dan who was a RCAF test pilot.

I did a search here and nothing came up on either Carter or Sandness, so I'm curious if this guy Hoover's claim is known in the Cooper community?  If so, has it been debunked?  If the story is not known, is there any interest in me posting it here?

Thanks 

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17 hours ago, MartinBaker said:

Long time lurker, I think I posted once maybe ten years ago.  

Today I received an email from a former colleague relating the story of a retired Delta pilot named Hoover who claims Cooper was a former Delta pilot who changed his name from Carter to Sandness. Lots of backstory to go with the claim, including Carter/Sandness allegedly having a brother named Dan who was a RCAF test pilot.

I did a search here and nothing came up on either Carter or Sandness, so I'm curious if this guy Hoover's claim is known in the Cooper community?  If so, has it been debunked?  If the story is not known, is there any interest in me posting it here?

Thanks 

I don't recall ever hearing anything about this. By all means, post it. Most stories like this are just that...stories. But you never know, the next one you hear may the real one. I'd certainly be interested in it.

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Here it is exactly as I received it.  There are factual errors in his telling of the story, but I don't think they impact his analysis and/or conclusions. No date on when he wrote this, nor was there any contact information for "Bill Hoover."

**************************************

 

The FBI should be embarrassed…I undertook this little project some twenty years ago.  I remembered it while digging through my files the other day.  The investigation still has some interesting loose ends that should be pursued, but I am too old for that now.  I would just like that if I pass on that somebody knows at least what I found.  If you just stick through the initial part, you will see the eventual tie-in with Delta. I hope you find this an interesting read.

Bill Hoover

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Best to sit down with a nice drink while reading this.  I welcome comments.

 

Well, here it is. I will state my case.  As I said, I started this over fifteen years ago, and while I have a nice stack of files on this case, I have not gone into them in ages.  That being said, I will be telling you some things as best that I remember them without digging up the files. 

 

I fell from a ladder while trimming a tree a few years before my official age sixty retirement from Delta.  That put me out on disability with a fractured spine and spinal fusion.  When my age sixty rolled around in 2002, I officially retired.  In retirement, I was on a website called PCN Death notices.  This site sends out the passing of fellow Delta pilots.  The site was run by a lady named, Carol Faulkner.  She and her husband were living in Arizona and both were retired from Delta.  I think that Carol was from Human Resources.  She still runs the notification site.

Well, one day, Carol sent out a death notice of a Delta pilot, a Donald B. Carter.  She said that she had little background information of his passing, and further, she said that she could find no records of a Donald B. Carter being a pilot for Delta.  Records did not show up at ALPA either.  I found that fascinating and could not imagine how a multi-billion dollar airline corporation could not have one of its pilots within its records.    Carol did say that there was another Delta pilot, a Roy P. Sandness, who had the same birth date as this Donald B. Carter.  She closed by asking if any of the pilots could supply any further information about either of these two individuals.

As I sat at my computer reading this, I noticed that Donald B. Carter had the same initials as DB Cooper.  I was making no connection between the two people whatsoever, it was just something that came into my mind.  I was trying to remember what entailed the DB Cooper event, and with nothing to do at that moment, I Googled DB Cooper hijacking and started to read.  My reading included the police and FBI reports.  As I went through those reports, I was shocked to see how many items of evidence, which a pilot would certainly have questioned, were totally overlooked by the FBI.  I found it astounding.

 

I am going to mention here just a few of the items of evidence in the reports, and then you can make your own conclusions as we go further into this.

1. The hijacker checked into Portland Airport for a Northwest Airlines Boeing 727 flight to Seattle.  He checked in under the name of Dan Cooper.  Later at a press conference the FBI said that they were looking into a low life minor criminal in the Portland area with the name DB Cooper.  The press ran with that and the name stuck until now.  We will come back to the alias Dan Cooper later.

2. The man was middle age, had a tan, wore sunglasses, and wore a black tie with a white shirt.  Several things stand out here.  This hijacking took place in November in Portland.  People in Portland do not have tans.  People in Portland probably do not own sunglasses.  This is not a Portland resident.  This is somebody from the south.  Who wears a coal black tie?  An undertaker, a bus driver, an airline crew member.  So, what does the FBI report say?  Possibly he was a Mormon missionary.

3.  Enroute to Seattle, he demanded $200,000 in cash and two parachutes.  He had the plane circle until the parachutes and the cash had been gathered.  He carried some kind of a wired device that he said was a bomb.  As they circled, he pointed out McChord AFB and Takoma airports to the flight attendant.  This guy was familiar with the area as viewed from the air.  FBI report says possibly military.

4.  The flight landed, all the passengers and all the flight attendants but one were allowed off the plane.  The money was gathered along with the two parachutes.  The hijacker asked that enough fuel be loaded to go to Mexico.  He also wanted the pilots to take off with the aft stairs extended.  Obviously, he had no intention to go to Mexico.  When Northwest said that they would not allow the aft stairs to be down for takeoff, the hijacker responded that that was Ok, he would lower the stairs inflight.  This guy knew his airplane.  FBI report:  maybe he was familiar with the 727 from Vietnam; maybe he was a disgruntled flight attendant.  When the refueling was taking longer than usual, he commented on it.  He knew his airplane and he knew how long a refueling should take.

But here is where his knowledge really stands out, he specified the route of flight, told the pilots what speed and what flap setting to use when enroute.  He specified the altitude.  This guy knows this particular plane well.

5. While on the ground in Seattle, the hijacker asked the cockpit to order "crew meals" to be brought to the aircraft.  Notice, it is not a generic "food" or "sandwiches," but "crew meals"  This is someone intimately familiar with airline jargon and "crew meals" availability. 

6. After takeoff, the hijacker went to the back of the airplane, read the instructions for lowering the aft stairs, and lowered the stairs.  I have more than a few thousand hours on the 727, and while I know where the handle is to lower the stairs, as a cockpit crewmember, I would have to read the instructions on the placard.  A flight attendant most likely would not have to do that.  While lowering the stairs, it became evident that the air stream was preventing the stairs from totally extending.  He then called the cockpit on the cabin intercom, and told them to lower more flaps so he could lower the stairs.  This guy knows his airplane.  How easy would it be for someone not on the 727 to feel comfortable in making the required selections on the cabin intercom to connect to the cockpit?

 

In summary, I believe the evidence clearly indicates that this was not some ex-military guy who knew the 727 in Vietnam; this was not some random airline employee or some flight attendant.  This was a fully qualified Boeing 727 pilot.  And certainly, this was not a Mormon missionary.

Now, let's go back to that alias that he used to check in: Dan Cooper.  The FBI did check that name out and they did come across the fact that a Dan Cooper was indeed a character in a European comic book.  They should have followed that clue further.  The character in the comic book, Dan Cooper, is a Canadian Air Force test pilot- remember that.  This comic book was never published or sold in the United States.  It was only sold in Europe and Canada.  And, furthermore, this comic book was published in French.  The FBI summary is that perhaps the hijacker was ex-US military and was familiar with the comic book while serving in Europe.  This comic book was published by a well-known Belgian illustrator.  Now, just for a moment, ask yourself, without help, how does a Belgian comic book illustrator come up with story-lines month after month about a Canadian Air Force Test Pilot?  It stretches credibility that he did it on his own.  Interestingly, the last issue before the hijacking involved Dan Cooper, Canadian Air Force Test Pilot, jumping out of a civilian airliner. Stick with me; this is all going to lead back to our Delta pilot.

Only one flight attendant remained on the plane the whole time.  She was the last person to see the hijacker, and to see him when he jumped.  Shortly after the hijacking, she entered a convent, and has never granted an interview or talked about this.

 

7. The hijacker jumped on a segment of the air route just north of Portland and near the Columbia River.  The weather was IFR, but it would have been easy for him to define this point as the airway takes a very sharp bend at that point.  If indeed he were a pilot, an old rusty Boy Scout compass would have indicated the point.  He jumped at a point near the river called Tina Bar.  The FBI summary said that this was a guy who had to have been totally comfortable in the wilderness.  That is true.  They also indicated that he was probably a "loner" as nobody reported a husband, son, friend, etc. missing after the hijacking.  He had been gone for several days, and there seemed to be no family asking where he had been.

 

So much for the evidentiary material, let's get back to our Delta pilot.

I took the information that Carol Faulkner put out and did a search of Donald B. Carter, who did not appear on any Delta records, and this Roy P. Sandness, the guy with the same birthday.  What I found was that indeed a Donald B. Carter had gone to court and affected a legal name change.  Now, some people who are baptized Brunhilda or Torkel, may go to court to change a first name that they do not like, and after a divorce, an ex-wife may go back to her maiden name, but what motivates someone to go all the way from Donald B. Carter to Roy P. Sandness? 

I tracked this Roy P. Sandness back to his place of death, it was either North or South Dakota, I can't remember.  I read his obituary, and it said that he was being buried in Canada.  I was actually able to go to the church website and see the tombstone.  It reads:  "Donald B. Carter/ Roy P. Sandness."  They are one in the same.  They are one and the same Delta pilot.

I then tried to trace this Donald B. Carter.  He was raised north of Winnipeg on the edge of a huge National Forest.  He had no father.  He had a brother: Dan Carter.  This Dan Carter was a test pilot for the Canadian Air Force and died in an airplane accident.  Our Donald B. Carter was also a Canadian Air Force pilot.  He hunted and fished, loved the outdoors, flew as a bush pilot.  He would also have been familiar with the French comic book. He also would have been familiar with parachutes.   He was a loner.  He never married until after he retired from Delta.

This Donald B. Carter made his way across the U.S. border and went to work flying for Northeast Airlines in Boston.  I have talked to a Northeast pilot who remembered him.  He also had a girlfriend in Boston.  She worked for Northeast.  When we tried to interview her, she said that if it had anything to do with Donald B. Carter, she would not discuss it.  Can you imagine that after all these years? Donald B. Carter eventually qualified as a captain on the Boeing 727 with Northeast.  He subsequently went to Delta when Delta bought Northeast. 

It appears that he was based in Atlanta, but there is also some information that he was also in Miami.  Remember the guy with the tan and the sunglasses? Subsequent to the hijacking, he went to court and changed his name.  He then went out on medical with Delta and later retired.  FAA records show that, though he had no medical after leaving Delta, he bought a seaplane.  Records also indicate that he had owned a seaplane in Canada years earlier, and at the time of the hijacking.

 

So, why and how did he do it.  Except for the one package of money that has been found at Tina's Bar on the Columbia River, none of the money has ever turned up.  The FBI had the serial numbers for each and every bill and all the banks were on alert.  This was not done for the money.  He was a wealthy airline pilot, no kids, no family; he did not need the money.  He did this to prove to himself that it could be done.  One of the loose ends in all this is the comic book illustrator in Belgium.  I just wonder if Donald B. Carter was not feeding him story lines.  After all, his dead brother had been a Canadian Air Force Test pilot, and the comic book character's name was used to check in for the hijacked flight.  I believe that Donald B. Carter never got over the death of his brother, and I believe he was the source of the comic book lines for the Belgian illustrator. 

Regardless of how much we are at attention for our cockpit duties in flight, we all daydream somewhat.  I think that Donald B. Carter did a lot of this.  I think he daydreamed of how someone could hijack a civilian airliner and jump out of it.  He knew exactly how the stairs operated.  He knew exactly the flap settings and speeds.  He knew the route that he wanted and the jump point.

I found some relatives of Donald B. Carter/Roy P. Sandness and interviewed them over the phone.  They were very cooperative.  I was upfront with them and said that I was wondering if their now Roy P. Sandness could be DB Cooper.  They said they would not doubt it.  They also told me that Donald B. Carter had a cabin on a lake in Canada  just over the U.S. border near Seattle.  They said that the cabin was only accessible via seaplane.  They said that nobody had been back to the cabin since Carter had died.  And, there is the second loose end.  A trip to that cabin may be in order.  You just may find the parachute or even some money.

 

 

So, in summary, what do I think?  I think that Donald B. Carter never got over the death of his brother. I think he was the source for the comic book story lines for the Belgian illustrator.  I think he had spent a lot of time planning this hijacking.  I think he was totally familiar with the Boeing 727.  I think he probably flew from his cabin in Canada down to the Portland area and landed and tied up the airplane somewhere on the Columbia River. He then got on the hijacked flight and carried out exactly what he had imagined would be necessary to accomplish the feat.  He did not do this for the money.  This was something mental.  He exceeded the boundary of what he had only been imagining and tried to put it into reality.  He was totally comfortable in the wilderness.  He was familiar with parachutes.  He would have owned a black tie.  He was based in Miami at the time and would have had a tan and owned sunglasses.  He was a loner and nobody would have reported him missing or asked where he had been.  I believe that after the jump, he made his way back to the seaplane on the Columbia River and flew back to his cabin on the Canadian Lake.  I believe the single pack of money found near Tina Bar years later was something that he accidentally dropped.

When he first went to Delta, Delta was not flying to Portland, so he did not have to show up in that airport where someone might recognize him.  However, later on, Delta did start service to Portland, and I think at this point it became a risk if he were to return to that airport and be recognized.  It is at this point that he goes out on medical, changes his name, and disappears from Delta records. 

 

That's it.  I hope you enjoyed the read.

 

Bill Hoover

 

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He's not my suspect, I was only curious if this Hoover character's story was known within the community.  It would be interesting to back track on his "research," and yes a photo and/or physical description of Carter/Sandness would be a key part of such an effort. 

I will say I quickly found the DAL site he mentioned, and sure enough Carter/Sandness is listed in the spreadsheet of deceased Delta employees.  (Why it would exist is a bit of a head scratcher, however. I didn't find a similar site for other airlines.)  Interestingly, "Bill Hoover" is not in that spreadsheet, meaning (if he's real) he's either still alive or the spreadsheet (if it's real) hasn't been updated to include him among the deceased.  If he's still alive, it appears he'd be in his mid 80s.  Assuming he's alive and still has all his marbles, he'd make a good guest for Darren on the pocast if he could find him.  I'd recommend starting with the 727 Association and the Delta Retirees Connection.

There are aspects of the story I like, and others I think are at best highly speculative. If Carter/Sandness (and his brother) were alleged former USAF aircrew, it would easy to request their military records from the NMPRC.  Don't know if the Canadian MoD responds to such requests.  I also like the bit about the "seaplane," although I'd like to know if there are places on the river where he could land and tie-up/conceal a seaplane (more likely a floatplane) without drawing attention to himself. 

If anyone is interested in trying to corroborate Hoover's story, let me know.  Maybe we could work together.

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7 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I don't think I have heard of this guy previously. I agree he would make a good guest on Darren's podcast. Getting someone's military records is difficult unless you are that person, or a family member. Unless the records are really old, then sometimes you can view the basics. Might want to try Delta-related groups at Facebook maybe. 

I know that Delta acquired Northeast Airlines around 1970, and in 2008, NorthWEST Airlines. Just an interesting tidbit. As far as how airlines deal with employee records, it varies a lot. For example, unless you actually retired from Northwest Airlines, they would purge most of their records on former employees every five years. I got this from Bruce Kitt at the Northwest Airlines History Center in Minneapolis. Back then, almost everything was in paper records and that's probably why they did it. 

EDIT: I have one caveat on all this. Despite what some folks have tried to theorize, the evidence shows almost overwhelmingly that the official flight path created by Paul Soderlind, (Flight Ops Director, NW Airlines) his team, the FBI, ATC, SAGE radar data, chase plane data, etc...is correct. 

And that Flight 305 did not pass over Tina Bar on the evening of the hijacking. 

You wouldn't need detailed military service records for the Carter brothers to back track and vet that part of Hoover's "research."  My point was all you're looking for is confirmation they existed, served, and were pilots.  If brother Dan died in the line of duty, I would expect that to be included in even the most basic of releasable records.  

 

As I stated upfront, there are a number of factual errors in Hoover's relating of the story. Since I too believe the "official" flight path is correct, I consider Hoover's statement about Cooper jumping near Tina Bar to be one of them.  Being wrong about the flight path does not impact the possible validity of Hoover's story, however.  If he survived the jump, no matter where he landed he'd still have to make it back to the "seaplane" if he flew out.  To Hoover's story, whether or not there were places on the river he could have landed and tied-up/concealed the a/c are more important than how many miles he landed from it.

 

Is it noted in the official case records that Cooper indeed requested "crew meals" as Hoover claims?  If so, did the FBI make any assumptions or draw any conclusions from his use of that expression?

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29 minutes ago, MartinBaker said:

You wouldn't need detailed military service records for the Carter brothers to back track and vet that part of Hoover's "research."  My point was all you're looking for is confirmation they existed, served, and were pilots.  If brother Dan died in the line of duty, I would expect that to be included in even the most basic of releasable records.  

 

As I stated upfront, there are a number of factual errors in Hoover's relating of the story. Since I too believe the "official" flight path is correct, I consider Hoover's statement about Cooper jumping near Tina Bar to be one of them.  Being wrong about the flight path does not impact the possible validity of Hoover's story, however.  If he survived the jump, no matter where he landed he'd still have to make it back to the "seaplane" if he flew out.  To Hoover's story, whether or not there were places on the river he could have landed and tied-up/concealed the a/c are more important than how many miles he landed from it.

 

Is it noted in the official case records that Cooper indeed requested "crew meals" as Hoover claims?  If so, did the FBI make any assumptions or draw any conclusions from his use of that expression?

Evidence indicates Cooper had aviation knowledge but not necessarily the 727. He had to have Tina show him how to lower the rear stairs and also thought the crew had control over the rear stairs. He got the range wrong.

We don't know if Cooper actually used the term "crew meals". The FBI files state that he requested or wanted crew meals not that he used the exact term. He may have, Cooper definitely had aviation experience.

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42 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Evidence indicates Cooper had aviation knowledge but not necessarily the 727. He had to have Tina show him how to lower the rear stairs and also thought the crew had control over the rear stairs. He got the range wrong.

We don't know if Cooper actually used the term "crew meals". The FBI files state that he requested or wanted crew meals not that he used the exact term. He may have, Cooper definitely had aviation experience.

Ok, thanks for the insight and feedback. We'll have to agree to disagree relative to Cooper's 727 experience prior to the hijacking.  In any event, as time permits I'm going to look into some of Hoover's claims, both about Carter/Sandness and himself.  

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16 minutes ago, MartinBaker said:

Ok, thanks for the insight and feedback. We'll have to agree to disagree relative to Cooper's 727 experience prior to the hijacking.  In any event, as time permits I'm going to look into some of Hoover's claims, both about Carter/Sandness and himself.  

Disagree on what, there is no evidence of 727 experience.

What facts support 727 specific experience? 

The ones I stated indicate lack of 727 specific knowledge.

The only thing that might support it is the 15 degree flap setting but even Carr thought Cooper never actually said it but the number came from the crew interpreting flaps down.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I agree with Flyjack. Nothing indicates much 727 experience. So many fallacies have been perpetuated from the start. Citizen sleuths have debunked a lot, or at least put many original theories to the test. 

I am not adverse to colouring outside the lines as a means of exploration but you need a good reason...

There is no evidence Cooper was a 727 pilot/expert. Actually, evidence to the contrary.

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7 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I agree with Flyjack. Nothing indicates much 727 experience. So many fallacies have been perpetuated from the start. Citizen sleuths have debunked a lot, or at least put many original theories to the test. 

Fair enough, believe as you wish. My opinion is based on all the sources I've read/heard, and 35 years as an aerospace engineer. I'm not here to convince anybody of anything, I have no suspect or agenda. Considering there are those in the community who think Cooper could have pulled this off with zero aviation and/or parachute experience, not sure it makes much difference if he was a rated 727 guy or not.

 

I do find it interesting Carr "thought" Cooper didn't specify flap settings, however.  You'd think he'd know that, especially if he became such good friends with which ever one of the pilots he became tight with as I've read.

 

I've identified 35 men named "William Hoover" who've been issued pilots' licenses by the FAA.  I'll wade through them to see if any of them fit the age/ratings we'd be looking for based on Hoover's treatise .

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16 minutes ago, MartinBaker said:

Fair enough, believe as you wish. My opinion is based on all the sources I've read/heard, and 35 years as an aerospace engineer. I'm not here to convince anybody of anything, I have no suspect or agenda. Considering there are those in the community who think Cooper could have pulled this off with zero aviation and/or parachute experience, not sure it makes much difference if he was a rated 727 guy or not.

 

I do find it interesting Carr "thought" Cooper didn't specify flap settings, however.  You'd think he'd know that, especially if he became such good friends with which ever one of the pilots he became tight with as I've read.

 

I've identified 35 men named "William Hoover" who've been issued pilots' licenses by the FAA.  I'll wade through them to see if any of them fit the age/ratings we'd be looking for based on Hoover's treatise .

That is the point,,,  it is your opinion...  based on what sources?  apparently not the evidence. Even opinions need an argument...

Most serious Cooper people believe Cooper had some aviation and parachute experience based on the evidence,, 

The leap to claim he was a 727 pilot/expert isn't supported. It is actually contradicted.

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11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That is the point,,,  it is your opinion...  based on what sources?  apparently not the evidence. Even opinions need an argument...

Most serious Cooper people believe Cooper had some aviation and parachute experience based on the evidence,, 

The leap to claim he was a 727 pilot/expert isn't supported. It is actually contradicted.

Never said he was a 727 pilot or expert.  

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(edited)
32 minutes ago, MartinBaker said:

Never said he was a 727 pilot or expert.  

 

4 hours ago, MartinBaker said:

Ok, thanks for the insight and feedback. We'll have to agree to disagree relative to Cooper's 727 experience prior to the hijacking.  In any event, as time permits I'm going to look into some of Hoover's claims, both about Carter/Sandness and himself.  

 

I asked you what you disagreed with.. and got back.. it's just your opinion.

 

Now, you claim Cooper's experience wasn't 727 specific. Is that your opinion now?

If so, what do you disagree with now?

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

 

I asked you what you disagreed with.. and got back.. it's just your opinion.

 

Now, you claim Cooper's experience wasn't 727 specific. Is that your opinion now?

If so, what do you disagree with now?

 

 

Nope.  I said he had experience on the a/c.  I don't believe he was a pilot, that was Hoover's position.  To be an expert on an aircraft, I consider that to mean someone has a design or systems engineering level of knowledge.   I don't think he had that either.  I do believe he had experience on type, however, probably from SAT in Laos.  

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54 minutes ago, MartinBaker said:

Nope.  I said he had experience on the a/c.  I don't believe he was a pilot, that was Hoover's position.  To be an expert on an aircraft, I consider that to mean someone has a design or systems engineering level of knowledge.   I don't think he had that either.  I do believe he had experience on type, however, probably from SAT in Laos.  

 

My initial comment to you was 100% accurate, you disagreed with it and gave zero clarity when asked.

Now, you clarify the experience Cooper did not have. Pilot/expert. That is what I have already said. So, you don't disagree..

You want to research a suspect that has pilot experience that now you don't think Cooper had..

 

Then a vague statement, "believe" "probably" SAT in Laos.

What "experience" in Laos exactly? and how does it relate to the evidence.

The 727's in SE Asia potential has been tossed around forever but nothing solid found.

At least not that is made public. ;)

 

This has some updates in it, year 2020, p 49

https://library.utdallas.edu/specialcollections/hac/cataam/Leeker/history/Tibet.pdf

 

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My interest in Hoover's story is it's fresh and new, at least to me.  As previously stated, as written it contains factual errors and speculation, but I've yet to find a story/suspect espoused by anyone in the community that is without issues.  Besides, it more reasonable than claims the Zodiac killer was Cooper and others I've heard. I'm particularly interested in the claim the brother was a RCAF test pilot named Dan. I've never put a great deal of stock in the comic book tie-ins, but if this part of Hoover's story checks out....

I thought the use of CIA backed Southern Air Transport 727s to drop cargo and personnel was well known. I know they were based in Laos, but I can't remember the name of the airfield.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-cia-proved-that-a-boeing-727-can-perform-air-drops-1566155708

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4 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

By SAT I assume you mean the cover name for Air America. This could be true, but the way Cooper dressed for the hijacking has always led me to believe that...

A) He was a person with jump experience, but hadn't jumped in a while. And this could be why when the FBI were checking dropzones they basically came up empty. 

B - ) He may have been poor and desperate at the time. No one knows what was in the paper bag he carried, although I suspect a pair of boots was something he may have had with him. He was woefully underdressed for trying a night jump. Almost like he had never done anything criminal before, and was on a tight budget. Maybe it was hastily planned, maybe even poorly planned to an extent. It smells of desperate somehow. Hijacker Richard McCoy and a couple of others came much more prepared for the weather. 

If Cooper was either a Boeing employee at one time, or knew someone at Boeing who worked on the 727 in the early 60's, he may have heard about the flight tests. My dad worked for Boeing back then and said that the tests Boeing did included lowering the stairs in flight to see if it changed the flight characteristics. Or more bluntly...to see if the jet would try to flip over, lose lift, or otherwise start a plunge to the ground. He said these things were well known to the rank and file, and reports often appeared in the employee newsletter on tests. Everyone in the rank and file at Boeing wanted to know what was going on with 'their project,' as it were. 'Scuttlebutt,' as they say, was everywhere. On the factory floor, in the washroom, at the lunchroom, on breaks, etc. Maybe today it is different. Back then, everyone knew what was going on with 'their' jet on practically everything, and Boeing was the number one employer. No Starbucks, no Amazon, no Microsoft. Seattle, in many ways, was still a bit of a hick town. 

I'm with you with regards to Cooper's apparent lack of preparation for survival once on the ground, assuming he made it that far.  Desperation? Inexperience? Ego? Overconfidence? Who knows?  Everything I've read/heard from Mucklow, however does not indicate any of those traits to me.  I'm more inclined to believe he thought the whole thing through and, at least in his mind, planned for the eventualities he could face.  If he survived the jump and got away, he clearly did something right 

The corporate family mentality of the day your father described at Boeing was very similar to what I experienced at LTV in Grand Prairie, Texas in the mid 70s. My boss there talked about "jungle drums" to describe plant gossip and rumors.  

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(edited)
1 hour ago, MartinBaker said:

 

My interest in Hoover's story is it's fresh and new, at least to me.  As previously stated, as written it contains factual errors and speculation, but I've yet to find a story/suspect espoused by anyone in the community that is without issues.  Besides, it more reasonable than claims the Zodiac killer was Cooper and others I've heard. I'm particularly interested in the claim the brother was a RCAF test pilot named Dan. I've never put a great deal of stock in the comic book tie-ins, but if this part of Hoover's story checks out....

I thought the use of CIA backed Southern Air Transport 727s to drop cargo and personnel was well known. I know they were based in Laos, but I can't remember the name of the airfield.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-cia-proved-that-a-boeing-727-can-perform-air-drops-1566155708

Right,,  so the "Air America" CIA stuff has always lingered as having some possible connection but there is no evidence of any. The obvious similarity is they were both 727's, but that is it. The FBI investigated the jumpers who took part in Takhli test jumps. 

Cooper incorrectly thought the cockpit controlled the rear airstairs, so I have been looking for planes used in SE Asia that did drops and had cargo doors controlled from the cockpit..  I believe that was the C-130. Both front and rear controls.

IMO, it is more likely Cooper had experience with the C-130 than 727.

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Did you know that the guys who actually served with Air America have a website? I want one of the hats. B)

Not surprised.  I found this site for SAT alumni a couple years ago. I sent a few emails looking for a lead on SAT 727 crews in Laos, but got no responses.

http://sat.the-beach.com/

 

Ever hear this story? I attended a lecture on this incident at the NMUSAF back many years ago.

 

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/an-aerial-combat-first.html

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13 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Right,,  so the "Air America" CIA stuff has always lingered as having some possible connection but there is no evidence of any. The obvious similarity is they were both 727's, but that is it. The FBI investigated the jumpers who took part in Takhli test jumps. 

Cooper incorrectly thought the cockpit controlled the rear airstairs, so I have been looking for planes used in SE Asia that did drops and had cargo doors controlled from the cockpit..  I believe that was the C-130.

IMO, it is more likely Cooper had experience with the C-130 than 727.

Could Cooper have been sandbagging Mucklow?  Concealing his knowledge of opening the door for misdirection?  

In the C-130, you can open both the door and lower the ramp in flight.  

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4 minutes ago, MartinBaker said:

Could Cooper have been sandbagging Mucklow?  Concealing his knowledge of opening the door for misdirection?  

In the C-130, you can open both the door and lower the ramp in flight.  

Sandbagging,, yikes

if you want to go that route into theoreticals then we have nothing to build a foundation on...

Cooper could have been a 5 foot 80 year old Chinese woman in disguise with lifts.

Anything is possible,, we have to operate from a base. Otherwise people just make up anything and they often do to justify theories...   

 

Cooper had Mucklow show him how to operate the stairs and he also indicated that the crew could operate the rear stairs from the cockpit. He also couldn't get the stairs down initially. 

The 727 in SE Asia had the rear stairs removed. We don't know if a 727 was used in some secret operation that they won't admit to.

The C130 was widely used, the Vietnam C130 guys thought Cooper was one of them... 

You can open the door and lower the ramp inflight from the rear or the cockpit..

 

If he believed the cockpit could control the rear stairs that indicates he didn't have 727 specific knowledge but may have got it from C130 experience.. or maybe another plane.  He had aviation knowledge so he got that assumption from somewhere. 

 

 

 

 

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Here Cooper thought the cockpit could control the rear airstairs..

That means he did not have 727 "experience"...

 

So, where did he get the idea...  the C130 had controls in the cockpit.

If Cooper was Vietnam, he likely got the assumption that the cockpit controlled the rear airstairs from another plane,, like the C130.

lowerstaircockpit1.jpeg.c359a7a8cd3d84db947500fbbed9f2d1.jpeg

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