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quade

DB Cooper

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you all got stuck with EU's version of a Cooper Party, which I thought was not only unfair (20 dollars a ticket and you couldn't purchase at the door)

I didn't get stuck with anything. I had nothing to do with the event. you are asking for way more. if people have to purchase a tent and camping supplies that goes into the hundreds. it's up to the people who go that decides what is right, isn't it? you whined about $10 WSHS charged. not everyone has money given to them on a silver platter pal. things cost money, you know? even Jim's deal would of cost you nothing since he offered the theater for free. someone is still paying for your free events, Robert. Greg instead of Jim this time. basing everything on money is another falsehood you need to stop.I'm sure it would of been different if Eric was given things too, no? 

 

I don't recall his events even being parties? they are conferences and get together's before or after the event surrounding those involved? 

Edited by mrshutter45

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Robert, it's not a competition or the ability to out do anyone. we research the case. we don't strive on pulling crowds for events. it costs money for everything done. this has zip to do with researching the case. exposure is always good but it's not my cup of tea nor is writing a book. 

What happens in Ariel this year is anyone's guess. I'm sure a lot will go to that as well. same for what ever Eric has in mind. it's the peoples choice and not yours.when they are announced I'm sure you will be right there shouting them down. it seems two of the three people you talk about most get more media coverage than you do. both Eric and Bruce have been on multiple documentaries with more to come from my understanding. nether one brags about it on any forum. they just do it. you are like a dictator telling everyone what is right and what is wrong, where to go to and where not to go, even speaking for us.

I don't have much more to say. you have the whole night ahead of you to respond and whine. I actually sleep at night and go to my job early in the morning unlike some folks (smiles) about 5 hours left to patrol and post while we all sleep. do you and Greg take shifts. should I leave a light on for ya? be careful, some even attack you with politics. it's a jungle out there. happy hunting.

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The jungle was a joke, Robert. 

Ariel could still have a party outside and serve alcohol as a special event. I don't know who they are or what they are really doing. If they contact anyone we will find out. 

When did you get the permit from the forestry you state on the website? 

 

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The other question is none of your business. Information like that is for the planning committee only. 

When you make public announcements it becomes everyone 's business.I can answer it for you..I took 5 minutes this morning and sent an email to the forestry service in reference to permits and group settings..It's about honesty. 

" Large gathering are currently not allowed.

The National Forest is following the guidance put in place by the State of Washington for COVID-19"

Need a number? 

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That's wrong. he's in charge of permits. do you know his name? actually, several emails. first he said 300 was too large for the camp sites (different person). I sent another explaining that the event will take place possibly, May or June and wasn't a camp site. I also inquired about Covid and the restrictions they have in place. I can see them saying it's possible by June. but I was specific giving two months.(May, June) I will call in the morning for absolute confirmation. what if spikes occur, why would they approve not knowing when to drop the guard?

This is what I read all the time with you narrating everything Eric does. you had a whole story that was completely wrong about his video's. he was asked to take them down. you were told that but actually took the time to make a video about it and write articles. do you see how this gets out of hand? you have been doing things like this for years..

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I never said two video's. haven't a clue where that came from or asking for you to take anything down..I stated that you were wrong about why he took the video's down. you thought he did it because of you. I told you during your rants last year that he was asked to remove them publicly. you continued on and made the video and articles ignoring what was said. The producers made the request..I think I made that statement as well. you assumed (as usual) and was wrong. You didn't burn any bridges, you used C4 on them..

 

Eric is working on the event just as you are. different times and dates. toss in Ariel and we have more for the 50th. nobody has any real idea what they have in store. They did say a party will be held. when, who, how is anyone's guess. it will probably be in November. a member stopped in Ariel  not long ago. I'll ask him to get in touch with them again..

 

 I will find the rest out tomorrow. I don't a thing to be worried about. 

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A bunch of interesting things...  from newspapers which are not always accurate.

Drop test followed the flight path... the FBI docs claim a sled was dropped over the Ocean, that makes sense. The FBI plan was to follow the Norjak path. It is likely they did follow the path and then dropped the sled over the Ocean. Remember, the FBI claimed the placard could have come from the test flight. Now, we know Norjak did not have the emergency release system.

 

cooperflighttest.jpeg.31a6cce0549c52f2575c710d29db1d3d.jpeg

 

Now, this is very crucial.

This newspaper piece is confirmed by the FBI files.

The rear stair light was on early, then when Tina went to the cockpit she saw a red light come on. The FBI assumed the first light was the stairs being unlocked and the second was the stairs locked down. This is wrong.

There are two lights in the cockpit..

Amber light, the lever is moved out of the detent position. 

Green light, the rear stairs are locked down.

 

Tina said she saw a red light go on around 8:00..  the light was amber but can be mistaken for red. The means at around 8:00 the lever was moved from the up detent position. The light wasn't green and the stairs were never locked down. The FBI is wrong, the second light was not the stairs in a locked down position.

The only way these events could be resolved..

Cooper or Tina moved the lever from the detent position early (about 7:42ish) causing the amber aft stair light to go on in the cockpit. The crew said the light was on for some time. The lever was then returned to the up position and the light would have gone off. Then Tina in the cockpit saw the light go back on when Cooper moved the lever from the detent position around 8:00...

It is likely that Cooper pulled the lever back to the up detent position then to open while struggling to get the aft stairs to go down. 

This indicates that stairs were closed near 8:00..

 

stairlight2.jpeg.d76142cd4e6f1eb6d435eb5aa8df7fd8.jpeg

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Ticket agent remember's Cooper had "black hair"..  Bill Mitchell also thought his hair looked odd like it was dyed..

cooperticketagent.jpeg.f414f3dd4be6c432a12cdbb057dda3f7.jpeg

 

This is odd.. an FAA official boarded the plane. (claimed)

Was this the mysterious FBI agent many passengers saw on the plane?? or the person the crew claimed was a passenger trying to get back on the plane??

 

officialboardplane.jpeg.ee1cc09342ecd1ff550d6cf2f9b178f1.jpeg

 

Geoffrey Gray mentioned pills for the crew...  here it is.

Cooper also got food for the crew.

113071oregonianbenzedrenefood.jpeg.dab44c41eaa002ca3b2addde41c30837.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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The problem with the sled test...

The sled test assumes that Cooper stood at the end and jumped. The sudden full weight gone causing stairs to bang up.

What if Cooper walked down the stairs backward and slowly let his body off the end while holding on to the rails. His weight on the stairs would have been significantly reduced and the air would have lifted his body..  his weight wouldn't have been on the stairs.

Then hanging on with his body off the end, he just let go..

This method would not have caused the airstairs to bang up.

What did cause the bump,, Cooper may have initially gone part way down the stairs then back up..

 

 

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29 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Ticket agent remember's Cooper had "black hair"..  Bill Mitchell also thought his hair looked odd like it was dyed..

cooperticketagent.jpeg.f414f3dd4be6c432a12cdbb057dda3f7.jpeg

 

This is odd.. an FAA official boarded the plane. (claimed)

Was this the mysterious FBI agent many passengers saw on the plane?? or the person the crew claimed was a passenger trying to get back on the plane??

 

officialboardplane.jpeg.ee1cc09342ecd1ff550d6cf2f9b178f1.jpeg

 

Geoffrey Gray mentioned pills for the crew...  here it is.

Cooper also got food for the crew.

113071oregonianbenzedrenefood.jpeg.dab44c41eaa002ca3b2addde41c30837.jpeg

Benzedrine makes me think of truck drivers trying to stay awake. Air crews too. 

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This is interesting,, I know there were many hoax tips.. and this may be another.

 

But here the runway across the River near I5 would be Pearson Airport which is very close to the flightpath..

I looked for a pond but couldn't find any really close but hard to tell for 1971, there appears to have been one about a half mile East of the runway back then.. it is no longer there. It is almost right under the flightpath.

 

i5pond.jpeg.2a1f7e62fff7e364e6dc183968c6d058.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The sled test assumes that Cooper stood at the end and jumped. The sudden full weight gone causing stairs to bang up.

What if Cooper walked down the stairs backward and slowly let his body off the end while holding on to the rails. His weight on the stairs would have been significantly reduced and the air would have lifted his body..  his weight wouldn't have been on the stairs.

Then hanging on with his body off the end, he just let go..

This method would not have caused the airstairs to bang up.

That's an interesting thought. Not sure what the percentage of weight difference affecting the stairs would be, I would think that would depend partly on the airspeed. It is known that that is how McNally exited, are there reports on stair response / pressure bump for his exit?

Still, there would be a singular moment when whatever weight effect is removed. As opposed to...

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

What did cause the bump,, Cooper may have initially gone part way down the stairs then back up..

I wouldn't think that would cause the pressure bump, because the weight transfer would be more gradual.

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1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

I wouldn't think that would cause the pressure bump, because the weight transfer would be more gradual.

In my mind, I think it would but without a real world experiment we don't really know. We don't have the unsprung force data..

 

The top 4 stairs are fixed and the last 11 are levered..

The airtairs were about level when open and at speed with no weight,,  the end opening may have been 1.5 - 2 ft.

If Cooper went part way, a few steps how far would the stairs have dropped? If they dropped only 2 ft more then they could have sprung back up and hit the top. You don't need the stairs to drop very far below level to recover the 1.5 - 2 ft gap above level.

The key is the stasis/level vs the range of motion..

 

 

 

stairs.jpg~original.jpg

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11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

A bunch of interesting things...  from newspapers which are not always accurate.

Drop test followed the flight path... the FBI docs claim a sled was dropped over the Ocean, that makes sense. The FBI plan was to follow the Norjak path. It is likely they did follow the path and then dropped the sled over the Ocean. Remember, the FBI claimed the placard could have come from the test flight. Now, we know Norjak did not have the emergency release system.

 

cooperflighttest.jpeg.31a6cce0549c52f2575c710d29db1d3d.jpeg

 

Now, this is very crucial.

This newspaper piece is confirmed by the FBI files.

The rear stair light was on early, then when Tina went to the cockpit she saw a red light come on. The FBI assumed the first light was the stairs being unlocked and the second was the stairs locked down. This is wrong.

There are two lights in the cockpit..

Amber light, the lever is moved out of the detent position. 

Green light, the rear stairs are locked down.

 

Tina said she saw a red light go on around 8:00..  the light was amber but can be mistaken for red. The means at around 8:00 the lever was moved from the up detent position. The light wasn't green and the stairs were never locked down. The FBI is wrong, the second light was not the stairs in a locked down position.

The only way these events could be resolved..

Cooper or Tina moved the lever from the detent position early (about 7:42ish) causing the amber aft stair light to go on in the cockpit. The crew said the light was on for some time. The lever was then returned to the up position and the light would have gone off. Then Tina in the cockpit saw the light go back on when Cooper moved the lever from the detent position around 8:00...

It is likely that Cooper pulled the lever back to the up detent position then to open while struggling to get the aft stairs to go down. 

This indicates that stairs were closed near 8:00..

 

stairlight2.jpeg.d76142cd4e6f1eb6d435eb5aa8df7fd8.jpeg

Here is the FBI doc on the aft stair light in cockpit..

The red light (actually amber) only goes on when the lever is moved from the up detent...  the aft stair light locked down is green. Tina said about 8 PM that the red light came on.

stairlight.jpeg.acca4dbe5eff921b7fa90bfe71bdbe46.jpeg

 

Tina red light go on..

tinaredlight.jpeg.053c41290300f98a2b7d015bc77052c3.jpeg

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Well, I don't understand Shutter's comment about the aft stair light in the cockpit..

The FBI docs and Tina's claims are consistent that two lights came on,, one at about 7:42 and one about 8:00..  There are only two lights, a green one for stairs locked down and an amber light triggered when the handle is moved from the up detent.

The second light was reported as red by Tina which can be mistaken for amber and the stairs were never locked down. 

That can only mean the handle was moved from the up detent and back at some point then forward again.

 

Also, the sled test.

Anderson was the pilot not Rat.. they discussed running the flightpath in the planning stage.. it makes no sense that they would not fly the fightpath given the opportunity. But, they dropped the sled over the Ocean. I have no doubt that they would have flown the flightpath, then headed out over the Ocean to drop the sled.

Edited by FLYJACK

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22 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

In my mind, I think it would but without a real world experiment we don't really know. We don't have the unsprung force data..

 

The top 4 stairs are fixed and the last 11 are levered..

The airtairs were about level when open and at speed with no weight,,  the end opening may have been 1.5 - 2 ft.

If Cooper went part way, a few steps how far would the stairs have dropped? If they dropped only 2 ft more then they could have sprung back up and hit the top. You don't need the stairs to drop very far below level to recover the 1.5 - 2 ft gap above level.

The key is the stasis/level vs the range of motion..

 

 

 

stairs.jpg~original.jpg

The farther he descends the stairs, the more his weight would open them, fulcrums, leverage and all that. As he walked back up, that leverage would reverse. I guess the question then would be, how much effect on the stairs does his weight give at the fifth step, the first one past the hinge.

 

-------------------------

 

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Well, I don't understand Shutter's comment about the aft stair light in the cockpit..

 

The last line in this document seems to indicate that the 'fully extended' light came on...

 

18 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

stairlight.jpeg.acca4dbe5eff921b7fa90bfe71bdbe46.jpeg

 

 

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23 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

 

 

 

The last line in this document seems to indicate that the 'fully extended' light came on...

 

 

Yes, that is the problem,,  that light is green and comes on when locked down.

Tina said red light came on (about 8:00) and the stairs couldn't have been locked down.

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4 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

The stairs were never locked down... ... I have no idea why this is even being considered.

As usual you totally miss the point. Nobody is claiming they were. But the last line in the above document indicates that the 'fully extended' light flashed. (Whether or not that is actually true.) I think that is what prompted Shutter's comment.

5 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

nothing short of ridiculous...

Describes most of your comments.

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1963 Boeing in flight airstair opening test,,  opened only 12 inches.

Says couldn't be forced any more,, I assume that means using the control lever,, not standing on the stairs.  

So, if Cooper's initial try to open the stairs resulted in a 12 inch opening then he could have, in his struggle, put the lever back to up detent then forward causing the light to flash twice.. and going down the stairs would have been the only way to get them open, he may have gone down to test and back up.

 

boeingtest.jpeg.18a58f363f2fec81689f828f50f34903.jpeg

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The only way the light flashed or was seen twice was if the lever was moved from the up detent then back to the up detent then from the up detent...

The light in the cockpit is triggered when the lever is moved from the up detent not when the stairs move or bounce up.

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This might make it clearer...

 

FBI files and news report that two aft stair lights came on.

First at 7:42, second about 8:04, right before Cooper says everything OK.

Timestamps from transmissions are at end of transmission, event is prior.

 

7:36 est. take off

(7:40 est) 4 minutes after takeoff Tina went forward (Tina)

7:42 air stair light on Tina with us, (Pilot)

7:45 have stair light on (still), (Pilot)

(7:50 est) = 10 min later Cooper call can’t get stairs down (Tina)

7:54 Tina said Cooper has “knapsack" tied to waist

time estimate…  Tina noticed red stair light “go on” (Tina)

8:04/5 FBI - seconds before Cooper says “everything OK” stair light comes on (claim stairs fully extended) 

8:05 Cooper said everything OK (AF radar has plane N of Pigeon Springs and E of Ostranger Wa.)

8:12 getting oscillations

 

 

The cockpit only has two aft stair lights..

amber = stairs not locked up lever not in up detent position

and green = locked down

 

How could Cooper go down the stairs at 8:04/5 fully extended/locked to trigger the light and return to the interphone at 8:05 to say everything OK...  and no oscillations or bump was noticed.

He can't...  the second light must have been the amber light (Tina said red) handle moving in and out of the up detent position.

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5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

This might make it clearer...

 

FBI files and news report that two aft stair lights came on.

First at 7:42, second about 8:04, right before Cooper says everything OK.

Timestamps from transmissions are at end of transmission, event is prior.

 

7:36 est. take off

(7:40 est) 4 minutes after takeoff Tina went forward (Tina)

7:42 air stair light on Tina with us, (Pilot)

7:45 have stair light on (still), (Pilot)

(7:50 est) = 10 min later Cooper call can’t get stairs down (Tina)

7:54 Tina said Cooper has “knapsack" tied to waist

time estimate…  Tina noticed red stair light “go on” (Tina)

8:04/5 FBI - seconds before Cooper says “everything OK” stair light comes on (claim stairs fully extended) 

8:05 Cooper said everything OK (AF radar has plane N of Pigeon Springs and E of Ostranger Wa.)

8:12 getting oscillations

 

 

The cockpit only has two aft stair lights..

amber = stairs not locked up lever not in up detent position

and green = locked down

 

How could Cooper go down the stairs at 8:04/5 fully extended/locked to trigger the light and return to the interphone at 8:05 to say everything OK...  and no oscillations or bump was noticed.

He can't...  the second light must have been the amber light (Tina said red) handle moving in and out of the up detent position.

This is accurate....

(est) Tina said about 10 min after she went to Cockpit. Then later noticed red light "go on".. the exact time isn't precise and isn't important here.

Several FBI docs and media report have a second light flash right before 8:05, that is the problem. That is the context. That second light could not have been the green stairs locked down..

 

stairlight.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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