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DB Cooper

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You need to understand the use of words at the time, not today.

Latinos back then were called white..

Witnesses for Hahneman's hijacking also described him as white, olive, spanish, latin American, swarthy. 

His military records say race > White, there was no option for "latin" only "other"

Widespread use of "Latino" only and dropping the white caught on a few years after NORJAK.

Edited by FLYJACK

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50 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I'm not completely buying this, but only because the FBI persistently names Cooper's race as Caucasian. I don't have to tell you that's what they said on the wanted posters since Day One until today. Wonder if any of the local TV news back east got some sound bites of Hahneman, along with video, when he was either going TO or leaving...court. They usually do this, and it would be interesting to see/hear. Also, I have heard nothing regarding a possible alibi (or the lack of one) for Hahneman 11/24/71. If he were from the Great Northwest, this might not be so important. But if you are going to have him traveling to Portland, Oregon all the way from the east coast around the date of the hijacking, you have to try and establish whether he had an alibi for the date in question. 

There are few still images of him leaving court, black and white.

I found a short video clip with voice of a guy in Vietnam that I believe is Hahneman.. I have matched images and several unique physical features including ears to get about 99% certainty.. I have tried everything but can't get to 100% confirmation.

Here is the kicker, the guy is a radio operator for Airlift Command which controlled all airdrops in South Vietnam from 1966..

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Everybody has ignored the olive, swarthy, Latin/Mexican description, that eliminates virtually all the prominent suspects, there is also the lips.. 

Lips were thin and the lower lip sort of protruded.. (matches Hahneman)

Cooper sketch artist,

Stew’s described Cooper as….    

Roy Rose... "middled aged person dressed in a suit, with a dark complexion and sort of a protruding lower lip, the rest of his face was rather nondescript, nothing unusual about it." 

 

initial description,, and thin lips..

just noticed,, sagging cheeks

 

cooperinitialdesc.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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31 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I'm not sure how come people put sooo much credence into witness descriptions that were taken from people who mostly saw Cooper sitting down, under stressful conditions, tired from a long flight and now 'this,' (stews) and where the perp was not seen under normal conditions anyway. (In other words, if you stand next to somebody at a bus stop, you will get a much better picture of them then dealing with them inside an aircraft. 

 

Does a sun tan look different if someone is standing?

The idea that a physical description is less accurate because a person is inside an aircraft is ludicrous. Really.

I hate airplanes, I really do. I'm a nervous wreck the whole time I'm on one. But because my job requires me to travel, sometimes I have to fly. With the onset of Covid, we've been given a little more freedom to decide how we travel. I recently made the drive from Tennessee to Idaho, not once but twice, in a three week period because I didn't want to fly. It sucked, but it beat flying.

That said, my judgement is just as good on a plane as it is anywhere. A few years ago I had to fly to Canada (which is the worst place I ever have to go) and the lady that sat beside me on the plane was....nice.

Let's just say that she was a nice looking lady and she had a very nice tan. I won't lie...many things went through my mind, but not a single time did I think that this lady was Latin, Mexican, Swarthy or Olive. She was tanned. There's a difference and it isn't hard to differentiate. Trust me. 

Edited by ParrotheadVol

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1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I only gave you my personal experience, and what I saw for myself. And what came from the witnesses. If the FBI truly believed that Cooper was of Hispanic, Latin, Mexican, or whatever you choose to call it...

Then why in the heck did they investigate SO MANY Johnny Whitebread guys? According to you and Flyjack, they should have written off every guy like that. But they didn't. 

Look...no one will ever agree on the accuracy of the witness descriptions. It will never happen. Why should it? Even the witnesses were not in agreement. Calling someone 'the best suspect for Cooper' simply based on the known descriptions is downright foolish. The hard truth is that the only way Cooper will EVER be identified is if Tina Mucklow, or possibly Flo Schaffner finally gets a solid set of pictures of a suspect, or a video where the suspect speaks on the video...and they say...."THAT'S him. THAT'S the guy." It's the only way it will ever happen.

(EDIT: Or...if absolutely irrefutable evidence emerges that lays the hijacking at a suspect's door and this evidence is far beyond any reasonable doubt. Those are the two main ways. DNA would be a very distant third, mainly because there is very little DNA evidence in the Cooper case, and the FBI hasn't released their partial DNA profile data.)

I sympathize with Flyjack on his efforts with Hahneman. But so far he can't establish either an alibi, (or the lack of one) for Hahneman, or produce even a single witness. Until he gets those things, Hahneman is no better a suspect than Kenny Christiansen, McCoy, or anyone else. 

However...Hahneman IS a better suspect than Walter Reca. But then so is my cat... ^_^

The FBI is still looking for cigarette butts that they destroyed in Reno.. all those whitebread suspects were eliminated. The second sketch "B" was done in colour to reflect the complexion and other slight adjustment.. Sketch "B" is the closest to Cooper, "A" was poor. That sketch "A" out there for a year was misleading and imprinted a poor image on investigators, witnesses and the public.

Larry Carr said that they would look at the totality of evidence for a suspect, if one element was weak but others strong they didn't eliminate automatically. McCoy became compelling for many because he had some strong elements but he had some very weak ones..

Nearly all the witnesses agreed Cooper was olive, swarthy, Latin/Mexican etc.. in both complexion and APPEARANCE..  none said he had a tan, (in late November).

For Hahenman, no witness said tan.. his UNSUB sketch was a resemblance, not perfect. It doesn't even look like at all like some of his pics. His height was described by witnesses from 5' 8" - 6' like Cooper. 

At this time, almost 50 years later I doubt a witness could ID with anywhere close to 100% certainty. You could probably get a NO to a maybe. The FBI said the witness memories were fading back in the mid 70's. I think back to profs I had in University and I doubt I could ID them in pics, no way near 100%.. and I knew them for an entire semester. For Hahneman, a witness actually ID'd the wrong guy from pics...

IMO, the only way to get to 100% is with DNA.. and that is out of our control.

The best we can get to is a "public" solution.. that may induce an attempt at DNA..

and Hahneman matches Cooper better than any high profile suspect by a long long shot.. He just ticks far more boxes.

I don't recall KC hijacking a 727 for ransom wearing a dark suit, overcoat, white shirt and skinny tie, brown shoes and sunglasses, threatening to blow up the plane with a briefcase bomb then jumping out intentionally at night over a jungle with a military chute..

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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7 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Wonder where Hahneman would get an idea such as you described. Cooper doing it just a few months prior, with lots of media coverage, even national TV coverage? The fact he wasn't caught?

Need alibi, or lack of one. 

Need witnesses. 

Sure, he got the idea from his experience in Vietnam,, well before Norjak. He wasn't a copycat, that false label is why he has flown under the radar..

Nobody was charged for NORJAK, by your logic, nobody did it.

You are flailing and losing here because you are changing the argument..

Hahneman IS the best suspect by far.. you are essentially trying to argue a strawman that it isn't proven 100% which is true without DNA, but that is true for all.

If I could put him on the plane 100%, he wouldn't be a SUSPECT would he.

How many people claimed to be Cooper or claimed they knew Cooper... hundreds.. maybe a thousand..  Hahneman never claimed to be Cooper and nobody who knew him claimed he was,, that is a plus. He was a loner who was staying in Hotels, not in Pa with his family. If he wasn't talking, there would have been no way to find an alibi.

The FBI claimed for some reason that he returned from Vietnam in January 72, that was 100% false. 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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I’m pretty new to the case, got hooked by the Rackstraw special and thought no way anyone is buying this guy is Cooper and was happy to find no one is. 
 

I’ve had the unique ability to start with the FBI files and agree Hahneman fits better than any of the suspects that are discussed often. I do think however the Shelton Lead discussed in the case files is the best fit. Marty does a great job on his blog breaking it down. American Indian, veteran, skydiver and identified as 3 people as Cooper. Also worked at Boeing and left the area after the hijacking.  
 

After reading the files and researching the case I’ve came up with two thoughts 

Cooper is likely Latino or Indian. No reason to twist that to fit a suspect.  

For all the criticism the FBI gets they put so many resources into the case and couldn’t close it makes me wonder if they had the guy but just didn’t have the evidence to charge him. 
 

If we could find out who this is I think he becomes the most likely suspect. 
 

 

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10 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I'm not 'flailing and losing'. I have a public report on our suspect for free download at our website. It's pretty lengthy and comes with names, addresses, evidentiary pictures, testimony of the witnesses, their contact information as was known at the time of the report. I stopped counting downloads after the first 100,000 downloads. We have plenty of evidence against Christiansen, but no...I cannot sit here with a straight face and tell you I am 100% certain he is Cooper. It is what it is. 

You have a great deal of circumstantial evidence. But as of yet, no direct evidence that possibly links Hahneman to the Cooper hijacking. All is NOT lost however, when it comes to Hahneman. What you need are more releases by the FBI regarding Cooper, and for something hot to pop up in those files ABOUT Hahneman, and his possible relationship...or the LACK of it...to the Cooper hijacking. Or...to see the FBI files on Hahneman himself that were gathered for his known hijacking. You can't just assume that he did Cooper because of the similarities. Remember...the FBI would have wondered that too. Unless they were total idiots about the whole thing, they would have wondered if he was Cooper right from the start. Maybe something will come up about Hahneman in the next batch of files, if there ARE any. It's hard to believe he wouldn't be mentioned somewhere in the Cooper files. Haven't seen that yet, but you never know what else they might have in files.

I meant you are flailing when it comes to Hahneman, 

He is the best suspect...

KC and others are not even on the same level.

 

This about the 6th time you have repeated the same error... I am not interested in correcting you any longer..

 

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39 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

'This about the 6th time you have repeated the same error... I am not interested in correcting you any longer..'

This is about the 60th time you have said that Hahneman is the 'best suspect' without presenting a single shred of direct evidence linking him to the Cooper hijacking. 

I have presented enough evidence you have repeatedly ignored it... of course I have much more..

 

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On 12/10/2020 at 12:53 AM, FLYJACK said:

 Roy Rose... "middled aged person dressed in a suit, with a dark complexion and sort of a protruding lower lip, the rest of his face was rather nondescript, nothing unusual about it." 

The image footnoted DB Cooper-1787 is not on vault.fbi.gov. Is there a preceding page or pages which indicate whether Roy Rose was the author of this description, and if so, whether this was his interpretation of descriptions from witnesses? or whether this description was provided by another source?

Edited by DFS346
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36 minutes ago, DFS346 said:

The image footnoted DB Cooper-1787 is not on vault.fbi.gov. Is there a preceding page or pages which indicate whether Roy Rose was the author of this description, and if so, whether this was his interpretation of descriptions from witnesses?

The Roy Rose quote came from his interview.

https://youtu.be/1rS68OepZ1A?t=156
 

 

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2 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

The interview reveals some big truths about the sketch, and how it was obtained. This is what I commented to the YouTube video just now:

It is known that Tina Mucklow returned to Pennsylvania (family was there) for a while after the hijacking. That's probably why she wasn't initially interviewed for the sketch. 

 

All three stews were interviewed for the sketch,, 

Rose told others all three were interviewed and it is in the FBI files. He stated 2 were at the same time and place.. (he may have misspoken)

The second sketch "B" is documented in the FBI files as having input from all witnesses and it was the best one.

 

3stewssketch.jpeg

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20 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Well, the 'story' is that Tina caught up with the FBI later. And that she went back to Pennsylvania for at least a while before returning to work. I dunno. Hard to say. In the video Rose says he got his first sketch from only TWO of the stewardesses. Maybe he spoke to Tina later, or the person sending the FBI memo only assumed he talked to all three. I'm not sure if this is a really important point or not. This day, or THAT day...all three did talk to him at some point. That much is known. 

Geoff Gray was the only person allowed to see a portion of the un-edited files, but not all of them. Well...that would take weeks to go through anyway. He was the one who named the different combination numbers from two of the stews out of the Facial Identification Catalog. 

Alice Hancock picked KA-3-9. Flo Schaffner picked KK-5-1. Neither totally agreed on other features. There is no reference to Tina Mucklow's combination. Flo said hijacker was no shorter than six feet. Mucklow says shorter, maybe five ten. Witness Robert Gregory said hijacker was no more than five-nine. All agreed on dark hair, possibly dark or swarthy features. Not a whole lot else. The witnesses were basically all over the place, but this is typical in these situations. 

In another interview he said all three,, what isn't clear is if only two or all three were together or at the same place. My guess is he misspoke and said two.

But, the fact is that Tina was interviewed for the first sketch.

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13 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Geoff Gray <> named the different combination numbers from two of the stews out of the Facial Identification Catalog. Alice Hancock picked KA-3-9. Flo Schaffner picked KK-5-1. 

Is the Facial Identification Catalog in the public domain? There is a website offering something with the same title, but only 1200 images: http://samanthasteinberg.com/new_facial_identification_catalog.html. Presumably the FBI's catalog has millions of images.

If we had access to the KA-3-9 and KK-5-1 images, combined with Ms Mucklow's description which is in the public domain, an artistic member of this forum could construct a new sketch that might allow us to think afresh about the hijacker's physical appearance.

Edited by DFS346
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4 hours ago, DFS346 said:

Many thanks. That quotation indeed occurs in Brian Rose's interview with Roy Rose on YouTube and vimeo. In that case, is there any way to know who was the author of the memo footnoted DB Cooper-1787?

there are two footnotes,, each looks to have a matching initial..

One looks like "Mg" possibly Tom Manning 

the other looks looks an "F" possibly Charlie Farrell

Those are guesses..

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The HBO documentary had a clip where they showed what looked like transparency overlays of things like hair, eyes, etc, that would be layered on top of eachother.  They showed the Bing Crosby sketch being made, but that may just be someone using current technology for the sake of entertainment.

On the Cooper comic Flyjack.  I'm not a huge believer in it myself, it just seems too convenient.  However, I think Larry Carr and the FBI thought it might be a connection, and I'm thinking maybe they have other info that we don't have that may lead them to that conclusion. 

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1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

The HBO documentary had a clip where they showed what looked like transparency overlays of things like hair, eyes, etc, that would be layered on top of eachother.  They showed the Bing Crosby sketch being made, but that may just be someone using current technology for the sake of entertainment.

On the Cooper comic Flyjack.  I'm not a huge believer in it myself, it just seems too convenient.  However, I think Larry Carr and the FBI thought it might be a connection, and I'm thinking maybe they have other info that we don't have that may lead them to that conclusion. 

I studied the comics extensively and the author was in the Pacific Northwest mid sixties and Florida late sixties. He would explore an area take pics and use them for his stories. He was well connected in military/aviation circles..  

I also found that the comic was published in Mexico for Latin America in Spanish.. the French only thing was wrong.  There is a vector between Hahneman and the publisher Herge. The IGY..

Ultimately, I believe the Cooper comic was probably an interesting coincidence, unless more evidence is found.

Edited by FLYJACK
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4 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

The HBO documentary had a clip where they showed what looked like transparency overlays of things like hair, eyes, etc, that would be layered on top of eachother.  They showed the Bing Crosby sketch being made, but that may just be someone using current technology for the sake of entertainment.

Sometime in the mid-70's I had occasion to help the police with a composite sketch and that is exactly the type of system they used.

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On 5/6/2020 at 4:02 PM, FLYJACK said:

The FBI narrative is that Tina brought the money and chutes onto the plane..

 

Larry Finegold claimed an FBI agent did,, but his story changed slightly. 

I am not really sure what to make of it.. a legit FBI coverup to hide info?  it is very odd. Why would Finegold make up the story?  but what about 302's..

 

https://mynorthwest.com/860897/investigators-think-theyve-identified-the-real-d-b-cooper/?

It was not long after the jet landed that Finegold became perhaps the first passenger to learn what was really going on. A man boarded the plane and came down the aisle. Finegold recognized him as an FBI agent he’d worked with before on federal cases.

“He said, ‘Larry, there’s a skyjacker on the plane, and we’re gonna get you off the plane in a couple minutes,’ then he walks [toward the rear of the cabin] because I think there was an exchange,” Finegold said. “This was happening behind me. [The FBI agent] was bringing on the money and the parachutes.”



https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/db-cooper-skyjacking-mystery-endures/470280013/

It was not long after the jet landed that Finegold became perhaps the first passenger to learn what was really going on. A man boarded the plane and came down the aisle. Finegold recognized him as an FBI agent he’d worked with before on federal cases.
“He said, ‘Larry, there’s a skyjacker on the plane, and we’re gonna get you off the plane in a couple minutes,’ then he walks [toward the rear of the cabin] because I think there was an exchange,” Finegold said. “This was happening behind me. [The FBI agent] was bringing on the money and the parachutes.”

 

Phone Interview with Larry Finegold Transcription: “Cooper” August 17, 2012

Finally, after a few minutes of what seemed like loading fuel on the plane, the front door opened, and they told people they could start exiting the plane – there was an announcement made – and the first person that I saw down as I, cause we were just de-planing out on the runway and going down just a set of stairs that they had rolled up, first person I saw that I recognized was an FBI agent who I knew because I was assisting the United States Attorney at the time, and I said to him, “John, what in the world’s going on?” and he said, “Larry, just keep going, there’s a skyjacker on the plane.” And that’s the first thing I knew about the skyjacking. 

Here it is...

DFS346 posted...

on Shutter's site that a passenger indicated the FBI came on the plane with chutes and money,,,

That didn't happen according to the FBI's official narrative..

Tina went out and got the chutes and money, making several trips.

However, another passenger Larry Finegold (above) did make the claim that an FBI agent came on the plane but he later changed his story..

So, we have a conflict.

Either the witness is a fraud or he has confirmed Larry Finegold's first claim and he has revealed info that has been covered up by the FBI (and witnesses) with a false narrative.. both alternatives are concerning.

Edited by FLYJACK

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