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quade

DB Cooper

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(edited)
20 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

 I think the general Cooperland group should pick themselves up out of the pit of non-cooperation, contact Bryan Woodruff on their own, and tell him two things. First, that you support him and the store. Second, that you support the idea of one last big-ass Cooper party with AB of Seattle fronting the expenses for him. He's hurting right now. Tell you the truth, the idea of doing the Cooper Campout would be cheaper and easier than spending that money to help Bryan. But sometimes you make a choice that is best for someone ELSE, rather than what is easier for you. 

Some of you I know. Others are new and I don't. And if anyone ever tries to tell you I had ulterior motives in mind doing that last event in 2015 for Bryan, they are full of it. 

Robert, is this about Bryan, or is this just another avenue for you to use as a way to lash out against the Cooper forum?

Here is what I do not understand: If Bryan needs help and you really want to help him, and you really want to have "one last big-ass Cooper party with AB of Seattle fronting the expenses for him", why not just reach out to him? Why does someone else need to serve as the middleman for that? Offer him help, he will either accept it or he won't. Remember your own words: sometimes you make a choice that is best for someone ELSE, rather than what is easier for you.

Again I ask, is this about Bryan, or is this just another avenue for you to use as a way to lash out against the Cooper forum?

Edited by ParrotheadVol

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Bill Williams might be a good resource to show your pictures to.  He has recently broke his silence, November 2019, and is apparently responding to people who send him pictures.  He is shown holding sketch of Cooper and William J Smith.

https://komonews.com/news/local/man-closest-to-db-cooper-boeing-aircraft-hijacking-mystery-breaks-silence

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(edited)

Now this is an odd coincidence...

On March 8, 1972 a short note appeared in Tina's local Bucks County Pa newspaper..

It read..

"TINA MUCKLOW sister of MRS. LEE DORMUTH of Lower Makefield Township was offered a bundle of $20 bills by a hijacker and rejected the offer. Miss Mucklow was a stewardess on the Northwest Airlines flight last November in which a hijacker took $200,000 ransom and parachuted out of the plane over the wilds of Oregon. She said she didn't accept the money because it wouldn't be right."

This wasn't the same story she told the FBI. Tina claimed she requested some ransom money and TOOK it, she returned it claiming gratuities were against company policy.

Lee Dormuth, Tina's brother in law was an FBI agent.

Coincidentally on March 8, 1972 an FBI memo announced that the military was going to do a search for Cooper... a search was conducted weeks later.

 

Why plant that story right before a search? Well, if Cooper and the money was found and some money was missing... Tina has covered her ass...

That planted story in the newspaper makes no sense, otherwise. There is no reason for it to be published, it was withheld evidence, it had to be a pre-emptive CYA leak probably managed by Tina's FBI brother in-law.. 

 

 

coopmarch8searchconfirmed.jpeg.acc3fa11c7e61dfcdfc572c5175d7c3e.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
13 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Still hard to imagine Tina Mucklow, a known Bible-thumper who even proselytized other NWA employees at work, suddenly deciding to steal money...and then trying to get that cash past a score of FBI agents at the Reno Airport. Now you have her brother-in-law involved in a conspiracy to defraud.

An FBI agent, no less. It's a bit much. 

Just saying. 

Found this song at YouTube from the famous T.A.M.I. show, and dedicated it to Cooperland.

Seemed appropriate. ^_^

 

This is hard to imagine..

The Cooper hijacking case has gone on for almost 50 years, that is extraordinary. 

There are reasons why it wasn't solved and those reasons are also extraordinary.

 

If it was simple, it would have been solved long ago.

 

It would be irresponsible and reckless to not consider the theory that Tina kept the money she took from Cooper. 

The only "evidence" we have that she returned the money to Cooper is her claim and strange story.. Only Cooper and Tina know what happened to that money.

 

.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

It would be irresponsible and reckless to not consider the theory that Tina kept the money she took from Cooper. 

Was Tina offered about the same amount of money as found at "Tina Bar".  Tina who served Cooper liquor?

I know it is known as "Tena" now, but it seems I read somewhere the beach was known as "Tina bar" back in 1971 or before.

Any info?

No. 1 Song below was "Shaft" from the week DB Cooper hijacked the plane.  I can see this playing in his head as he hijacked the plane.

 

Edited by Coopy

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(edited)
3 hours ago, Coopy said:

Was Tina offered about the same amount of money as found at "Tina Bar".  Tina who served Cooper liquor?

I know it is known as "Tena" now, but it seems I read somewhere the beach was known as "Tina bar" back in 1971 or before.

Any info?

No. 1 Song below was "Shaft" from the week DB Cooper hijacked the plane.  I can see this playing in his head as he hijacked the plane.

 

Flo served Cooper the drink...

Tena Bar is a coincidence.. it is a natural garbage trap from the river..

Tina moved to upstream of TBAR 1978/79.

Tina wasn't offered money, SHE ASKED FOR IT.

We don't know the exact amount,, a package or bundle (of packets?)..??

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Tina wasn't offered money, SHE ASKED FOR IT.

Ok, she jokingly asked for the money after saying there is alot of cash in the bag per Geoffery Gray book "Skyjack".

Cooper hands her a "stack of bills" anyways per the book.  He wants her to have it.

She says we do not accept tips

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(edited)
1 hour ago, Coopy said:

Ok, she jokingly asked for the money after saying there is alot of cash in the bag per Geoffery Gray book "Skyjack".

Cooper hands her a "stack of bills" anyways per the book.  He wants her to have it.

She says we do not accept tips

That is Tina's story.. she also claimed it was against company policy and ALL the stews rejected tip money,,,  but that event hadn't happened yet, it was later.

 

But, why would that short comment appear in her local paper.. it has no context and there is no reason to reveal FBI info right before a big search operation.

 

March 8, 1972...  Tina's local paper. CYA

"TINA MUCKLOW sister of MRS. LEE DORMUTH of Lower Makefield Township was offered a bundle of $20 bills by a hijacker and rejected the offer Miss Mucklow was a stewardess on the Northwest Airlines flight last November in which a hijacker took $200,000 ransom and parachuted out of the plane over the wilds of Oregon. She said she didn't accept the money because it wouldn't be right."

 

FBI files.

tinamoney.jpeg.2a42c0212ea958df3e4984667a5aa730.jpeg

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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57 minutes ago, Asbury09 said:

Can anyone help me get in touch with Jo Weber? I have some new info on Duane Weber that might be of interest to her.

Shutter, the owner of Shutter's forum, has some recent information on Jo Weber and may know how to get in touch with her.  But you will have to figure out some way to get in touch with Shutter.

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I've become enthralled by the DB case and history over the last few years after my wife and I bought a house in the Greenwood area. After doing some house history research I discovered that our house was owned by none other than Earl Cossey; him and his wife at the time purchased the house in 1967 and lived here during/after the skyjacking.

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11 hours ago, blndsoccer said:

I've become enthralled by the DB case and history over the last few years after my wife and I bought a house in the Greenwood area. After doing some house history research I discovered that our house was owned by none other than Earl Cossey; him and his wife at the time purchased the house in 1967 and lived here during/after the skyjacking.

Have you checked the attic?

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45 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Have you checked the attic?

@FLYJACK Funny you should ask! We did! Mostly nothing except....an old wood stove with some charred logs and ash still in it. My mind immediately went to some sort of collusion between Cossey and DB. It now sits on our front porch; I've turned it into a little table. Such history!

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9 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

If you ever pick up some rec property with a cabin, all you will need is a few solar panels, some deep cycle batteries, drag the stove up there, and you would be good to go for power and heat. 

You could call it, Cooper's Cabin:handok:

1/2 a step ahead of you. I just started building a small office shed in the back yard; "DB's Hideaway".

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(edited)

Georger wrote...

"A 2018 article by CoinWorld You are not allowed to view links.Register or Login    says that 35 more serial numbers were found by conservators working on the Ingram money, than the FBI previously counted. That brings the Ingram find to $6500."

This is a common and often repeated misunderstanding and needs to be clarified. This happened in 2008 when 35 additional serial numbers were identified from fragments. It was not 35 additional bills, just newly identified numbers from fragments.

https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-currency-notifies-fbi-of-d-b-cooper-serial-numbers

The TBAR bills were 3 packets of 100, a few missing from one but in the same order as given to Cooper per micro recording. The FBI did not identify every bill by the identifiable serial number but they had the sequence. 

PCGS identified previously unrecorded serial numbers from fragments within the 3 packets, they did not find additional bills. 

Claiming more than $6000 was found on TBAR is erroneous. The FBI had the sequences and it could easily determine the number of bills without identifying each and every serial number.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Georger wrote...

"A 2018 article by CoinWorld You are not allowed to view links.Register or Login    says that 35 more serial numbers were found by conservators working on the Ingram money, than the FBI previously counted. That brings the Ingram find to $6500."

This is a common and often repeated misunderstanding and needs to be clarified. This happened in 2008 when 35 additional serial numbers were identified from fragments. It was not 35 additional bills, just newly identified numbers from fragments.

https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-currency-notifies-fbi-of-d-b-cooper-serial-numbers

The TBAR bills were 3 packets of 100, a few missing from one but in the same order as given to Cooper per micro recording. The FBI did not identify every bill by the identifiable serial number but they had the sequence. 

PCGS identified previously unrecorded serial numbers from fragments within the 3 packets, they did not find additional bills. 

Claiming more than $6000 was found on TBAR is erroneous. The FBI had the sequences and it could easily determine the number of bills without identifying each and every serial number.

No Georger, you are making an assumption.. the FBI did not record serial numbers for every bill found, you are making that up, many were fragments not individually identifiable.. That is proven by looking at the auctioned bills, not all have an identifiable serial number. PCGS just Identified bills that were not complete or identified within the packet. The FBI had the sequence per packet and could determine the total count based on that. The FBI didn't need to ID each bill or fragment with a serial number to get a total count. 

You have conflated two different things based on a false assumption. You assume that the FBI count of 280 was determined by identifying 280 serial numbers. That is false. They had the packet sequence on micro and concluded 3 packets of 100. (A few missing from one)

35 additional serial number were identified, that doesn't mean there were more than 3 packets of 100.. 

but if you want to believe there were more than the 3 packets of 100 based on your false assumption go right ahead,,, false assumptions have never stopped you before.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Re: TBAR bills..

The money went to Cooper in packets of 100 bills, they were rubber banded into random sized bundles. The packets themselves were not a random count. Larry Carr was wrong.

The TBAR money was 3 packets, 100 bills each (one missing a few, either removed or worn away).. The FBI had the micro images of the bills in order. It would be easy to determine how many bills by checking the identifiable serial numbers at the start/stop of each packet of 100. The FBI did not need to identify every bill's serial number in between to get a total number. 

The most interesting thing is the missing bills.. were they removed prior to or post discovery or in some natural erosion??

Edited by FLYJACK

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This is getting silly... Georger still doesn't understand the "packets".. this is so simple.

The bills were all in a random SN order.. so random means count for this discussion.

Larry Carr claimed the 3 bundles found were each in random counts. He was wrong, they weren't random counts and they were really in "packets of 100 bills each". He claimed the bundles were random counts and rubber banded. This is correct but because Larry incorrectly thought the "packets" were "bundles", his conclusion was wrong. He incorrectly applied the correct premise to the packets instead of the group of packets, the bundles.

This is why it is crucial to correctly identify "packets" and "bundles"..

Larry and Georger screwed this up 10 years ago and he still can't see the obvious error.

Remember, the money went to Cooper in packets of 100 bills each. Those packets were rubber banded into random sized bundles.

How did the money go to Cooper in packets of 100 each and get found in random counts... it didn't. Larry and Georger conflated the terms "packets" and "bundles" to erroneously conclude the packets were a random count.. they weren't. The bundles were a random number of packets.

Those packets were rubber banded into random sized bundles. So, a single bundle may have 3, 4 or 5 packets of 100 bills each rubber banded into one bundle.

Cooper received 100 packets of 100 bills each. Those individual packets were rubber banded into bundles. Each bundle had a random number of packets,, perhaps 3s, 4s, 5s per bundle. 

 

It is very likely the 3 TBAR packets of 100 bills each arrived as 1 rubber banded bundle. As the rubber bands deteriorated the 3 packets of 100 bills each separated slightly. 

The claim that the three packets only arrived on TBAR separately is bogus. For 3 packets to arrive at the same spot independently but together limits the means by which they could have arrived. More likely, they arrived in one bundle and the possible means by which they arrived is expanded.

Since the FBI had the bill sequence on Micro they could easily compare and determine the TBAR bill count.

 

What happened to the few missing bills..

1. The bills were removed before deposit on TBAR. Potentially spent into circulation. 

2. The bills were worn away due to erosion, perhaps they were on the top of the top packet in the single bundle.

3. The bills were taken, removed or kept after the money was found before the FBI got the money.

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(edited)

Georger once again demonstrates his lack of case knowledge.

To defend his gross error and inability to admit it.. Georger writes...

"REPLY:  Packet is not a formal banking term! No bank including the US Federal Reserve has the slightest idea what Flyjack means by "packet". All said packet is NOT a formal banking term. No bank organises its money in "@packets"! SeaFirst could not have delivered its ransom money to Cooper in packets ... because SeaFirst doles not have the faintest idea what a packet of money is! All say Flyjack has invented a term which has no meaning in reality!

EU should take note of this fact for his next invention/speculation about the Cooper ransom. "

 

 

Georger is 100% wrong.. never ever trust anything that comes from Georger.

 

So, we look at the FBI Cooper files... which destroys Georger's dishonest and ignorant screed. 

Checkmate, Case closed.. PACKETS, PACKETS, PACKETS. You lose, admit you have been wrong and move on.

cooppacket1.jpeg.c336949d0477c9f0e2cd2bbf45cabfab.jpegcooppacket2.jpeg.eb5210ecef804907f2301ab813f24d85.jpeg

cooppacket3.jpeg.d7c00defaeb6650dd1ee20a21e30b0f1.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Georger once again demonstrates his lack of case knowledge.

To defend his gross error and inability to admit it.. Georger writes...

"REPLY:  Packet is not a formal banking term! No bank including the US Federal Reserve has the slightest idea what Flyjack means by "packet". All said packet is NOT a formal banking term. No bank organises its money in "@packets"! SeaFirst could not have delivered its ransom money to Cooper in packets ... because SeaFirst doles not have the faintest idea what a packet of money is! All say Flyjack has invented a term which has no meaning in reality!

EU should take note of this fact for his next invention/speculation about the Cooper ransom. "

 

 

Georger is 100% wrong.. never ever trust anything that comes from Georger.

 

So, we look at the FBI Cooper files... which destroys Georger's dishonest and ignorant screed. 

Checkmate, Case closed.. PACKETS, PACKETS, PACKETS. You lose, admit you have been wrong and move on.

cooppacket1.jpeg.c336949d0477c9f0e2cd2bbf45cabfab.jpegcooppacket2.jpeg.eb5210ecef804907f2301ab813f24d85.jpeg

cooppacket3.jpeg.d7c00defaeb6650dd1ee20a21e30b0f1.jpeg

I wonder if the first and last serial numbers found in the banded packets At Tina bar were correct.

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(edited)

I had perviously caught Georger lying about Tina evidence and he just ignored it when I challenged him on it. He'll do the same, talk big and run away when proven wrong.

The money went to Cooper in packets of 100 bills, they were rubber banded into random sized bundles. The FBI claimed the TBAR money was in the same sequence so the Carr/Georger argument is completely busted.. it just makes no sense. How does a packet go to Cooper in a random count then get found in 100's. It doesn't. The 3 TBAR packets were NOT random counts. The bundles aka groups of packets were. The TBAR money was 3 packets part/all of a single rubber banded bundle. The location of the rubber band frags was never identified. They could have been from individual packets or the single bundle itself. The rubber band frags were NOT "intact" as described, they could have only been fragments on the top or bottom of packets. 

The 3 packets likely arrived on TBAR as one single rubber banded bundle (as Cooper got them) that separated slightly on TBAR as the rubber bands deteriorated.. 

 

https://www.fbi.gov/video-repository/newss-scientists-hunt-for-d.b.-cooper/view

at 1:53

“Brian Ingram, who discovered ransom money in 1980: We are out here making a campfire, my father and I, and that’s when we discovered the three packets of $20 bills, later to be proven as ransom money of D.B. Cooper."

 

I have several theories but the best fit is the money was discarded upstream of TBAR within a few years of the discovery. 

The best speculation for that scenario is: Tina kept the money she was handed by Cooper and in the Spring of 1979 the money was tossed as a single rubber banded bundle into the river, likely into the Willamette near Eugene where Tina resided. Possibly discarded by her brother in law. The money tumbled along the gravel bottom for 2-3 weeks to end up on TBAR. That is the short version for now there is a more detailed argument for this.

If that is what happened it doesn't tell us who Cooper was but it tells us something else very important.

 

 

A strapped packet of 100 bills is also called a "strap".

 

7:19 in video

Himmelsbach..

"There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands."

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Robert. I can see how it is possible that the John Doe warrant caused the money to show up at Tina Bar. But, that assumes that Cooper would have been free and clear after the statute of limitations was done. I don’t think he would have been free. The IRS could still get him, state police, other federal agencies, etc. Granted keeping the FBI investigation open definitely kept the heat on. 

Cooper would have had to come back and plant the money. That’s a big risk. Or throw it in the river, then hope someone found it. There are so many assumptions here. No one really knows. 
 

I’ve made the comment before that 10,000 bills left that plane, yet we get all wrapped up in the 300 that showed up on Tina Bar. We should be focused just as much on the other 9700. I really liked the concept that EU started with trying to find a $20. I think that still has some potential. 97 percent of the bills are still out there somewhere. Maybe ashes, but still. 
 

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