47 47
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

(edited)

There is no evidence or indication Cooper tied the briefcase to himself.. jumping with a briefcase tied to his body is extremely unlikely. Cooper said he would disarm or toss the bomb.

If Cooper put money into the dummy reserve then what happened to the chute inside, it is missing from the plane..   Cooper would have had to have thrown an open dummy chute off the plane,, makes no sense.

The reserve chute found left on the plane was missing the drouge. Tina claimed he tied the money to his waist.. from a part of the chest reserve chute that was left behind,, sounds like the drouge FBI sp (drogue)..

Best scenario,, Cooper used the drouge and cords from the chest chute left in the plane to wrap and tie the money to his waist..

 

drougemissing.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

The reserve chute found left on the plane was missing the drouge.

By drouge (actually spelled drogue), I believe you are referring to the pilot chute. (It's interesting to see that also mentioned in the supporting document.)

In those days, most if not all front reserves did not have pilot chutes. In the emergency procedure for a malfunctioned main, you did not release the main before deploying the reserve. (That process is called a 'cutaway'. You don't actually use a knife to cut anything, that's just what it's called.) Rather, you would deploy the reserve canopy by hand, throwing it out away from you and hoping to get it past the main. Not sure exactly when the cutaway method began, but when I started jumping in '79 it was still in transition. Of the two major drop zones near me, one was teaching the cutaway method and the other was not. (That applies to student parachutists, who were still learning on 'gutter gear' [back mains and front reserves]. Most experienced skydivers were already using 'piggyback' rigs [main and reserve both on your back] and definitely using the cutaway method.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Took you all that time to figure. out Cooper cut lines from the. pink chute to secure money bag around his waist...Citizen Sleuths could have told you that. They even know which lines and how long each was...  Ask them on the drogue. They examined it thoroughly. TK. will know.

Who are you referring to?

I know all this stuff, Ulis has it screwed up.. I was just clarifying that it was likely the drogue that Cooper used to wrap the money.

The drogue was missing, FBI doc typo drouge, I lost that clarification in an edit, they are different from a pilot chute from what I've read, the reserves didn't have pilot chutes according to Cossey.

I recall Tina saying he was using white cloth to tie up the money, the reserve chute was pink/orange but if Cooper used the drogue it was probably white.. and that makes sense. 

Cooper tried to wrap the money in parachute material but didn't cut up the pink/orange reserve main.. 

the FBI doc refers to a missing drouge sp (drogue)

Tina said Cooper cut some part from the chest reserve, she wasn't sure what it was,,,

It looks like it was the (missing) white drogue... from the front reserve left on the plane.

 

No, Robert99, it is not a pilot chute.

 

 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The drogue was missing, they are different from a pilot chute

Other than a misidentified pilot chute, there is no such thing as a drogue on a reserve. A drogue is a small parachute that trails behind someone/something in freefall. They can be used to control freefall speeds and/or stabilize whatever it is they're attached to. The military also uses them to extract cargo from planes. Modern tandem jumps use a drogue, then when the main is deployed, they double as the pilot chute. Joe Kittinger also used a drogue on his high altitude military test jump way back in '60.

The white material might have been from the canopy in the dummy reserve.

 

----------------

Richard Blevins still posts as though he still has credibility. I am again reminded of the title of a book.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

Other than a misidentified pilot chute, there is no such thing as a drogue on a reserve. A drogue is a small parachute that trails behind someone/something in freefall. They can be used to control freefall speeds and/or stabilize whatever it is they're attached to. The military also uses them to extract cargo from planes. Modern tandem jumps use a drogue, then when the main is deployed, they double as the pilot chute. Joe Kittinger also used a drogue on his high altitude military test jump way back in '60.

The white material might have been from the canopy in the dummy reserve.

 

----------------

Richard Blevins still posts as though he still has credibility. I am again reminded of the title of a book.

 

 

j. “Drogue” – A small aerodynamic decelerator towed behind a falling body to slow its velocity.

What other/white material would be attached then if misidentified? 

Can you tell from the images... 

https://citizensleuths.com/pink-parachute-gallery.html

 

A pilot chute can also be a drogue...   

 

Clearly, a chest reserve with "something" attached..

1_2cd84b807782835b5d8d8ad9b616da96.jpg.db2559d5a2b96daaaa14150820c26dd4.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A pilot chute and a drogue are similar in design and appearance. The difference is in the function. The drogue trails behind something/someone in freefall for the reasons stated above. The pilot chute deploys the canopy. In the 'cutaway' method of emergency procedure, then the reserve would have a pilot chute, and that's what is seen in that last picture you posted.

Again, I would guess that any white material might have come from the dummy reserve.

The pictures in the 'citizen sleuths' link:

In the picture of the canopy laid out on the table, the lines at the near end, the far end is where the pilot chute would be, yet nothing is seen. No pilot chute on that rig.

That bundle of lines between the hardware in the container is a cross connector. The parts of the hardware that can be seen inside the container, those rectangular metal loops, are where the parachute lines attach. That hardware goes through holes in the container fabric, and the other end are those hooks/clips that are seen in other pictures. Those clips attach to the D-rings on the main harness. If one of those attachment points were to fail on opening, you'd lose tension on half of the lines, the canopy would collapse and you'd go in. That cross connector would hold that side of the hardware and prevent that collapse from happening.

Those lines tied to the side of the container is probably something Cooper did in an attempt to tie that to him. That those lines are white, and not pink like the ones on the chute in the picture make me think that they too might be from the dummy reserve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

A pilot chute and a drogue are similar in design and appearance. The difference is in the function. The drogue trails behind something/someone in freefall for the reasons stated above. The pilot chute deploys the canopy. In the 'cutaway' method of emergency procedure, then the reserve would have a pilot chute, and that's what is seen in that last picture you posted.

Again, I would guess that any white material might have come from the dummy reserve.

The pictures in the 'citizen sleuths' link:

In the picture of the canopy laid out on the table, the lines at the near end, the far end is where the pilot chute would be, yet nothing is seen. No pilot chute on that rig.

That bundle of lines between the hardware in the container is a cross connector. The parts of the hardware that can be seen inside the container, those rectangular metal loops, are where the parachute lines attach. That hardware goes through holes in the container fabric, and the other end are those hooks/clips that are seen in other pictures. Those clips attach to the D-rings on the main harness. If one of those attachment points were to fail on opening, you'd lose tension on half of the lines, the canopy would collapse and you'd go in. That cross connector would hold that side of the hardware and prevent that collapse from happening.

Those lines tied to the side of the container is probably something Cooper did in an attempt to tie that to him. That those lines are white, and not pink like the ones on the chute in the picture make me think that they too might be from the dummy reserve.

That a is good catch about those white cords,,,,

looks like cooper tried different methods to attach the money and Tina didn't indicate what he finally went with..

 

 

Tina..

 

foldedparachute.jpeg.3bb6dabe80c4e6d110f213c0f3da194e.jpeg

 

wrapparachute.jpeg.f1639f336e52e844482d64eba014e558.jpeg

 

tamperparachute.jpeg.0cc4301dc185578c5e21adac795395ec.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

looks like cooper tried different methods to attach the money and Tina didn't indicate what he finally went with..

She probably didn't know. It sounds like he was still working that out when he sent her up front.

It's also been speculated about what went with him, what got thrown out and why... The way he handled/took other evidence, I think it's pretty sure that he was not going to leave the briefcase on board. Whether he used it to hold money, whether he threw it out, I don't think can be definitively known. As for the dummy reserve, especially if he did open it, whatever parts did not go with him, it's possible that if he left any of that anywhere near the open door, that it got blown out or jostled out after he left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with dudeman17...

The reserve chute cords are dyed pink except for the end that attaches to the metal anchor where they were all cut.. after that sewn joint.

It suggests those white cord frags tied to the sides are from the other "dummy" reserve chute or possibly a drogue if there was one.

 

My gut feeling is the FBI is withholding info on the chutes and that is why we get vague info and inconsistencies regarding the chutes. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got news that the party involved in a 40+ year old crime/mystery which I recently solved is planning a documentary... and they asked if I'd be in it. 

For me, this mystery was far easier than the Cooper case but goes on my resume as a major win and gives my crime/mystery solving research and critical thinking skills big cred..  and it is a very very cool story. Just like the Cooper case it was an intellectual puzzle but in many ways it was more satisfying than the Cooper case.. the case was stone cold and I solved it completely on my own but I controlled the process and environment. It wasn't solved by science, it was solved by reasoning and critical thinking.

 

The problem for everyone with a suspect in the Cooper case is the forensics and reliance on the crumbs the FBI gives us.. we don't control forensics and only that will 100% put a suspect on the plane. The best anyone can do is to build a circumstantial case so strong that the authorities are forced to apply the forensics, if they really want to solve it. I don't think they do.. at least at the top. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It suggests those white cord frags tied to the sides are from...   possibly a drogue if there was one.

If a drogue is attached to something, it is not with lines, but a bridle. A bridle is a length of nylon webbing, like a lanyard, that is flat, bigger/wider/thicker than lines. A pilot chute is also attached with a bridle. A drogue bridle is usually heavier/thicker than a pilot chute bridle. All a pilot chute has to do is extract the canopy from the container and pull it to line stretch. A drogue bridle holds the drogue in place at freefall speeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is interesting, the white cord is looped around the side handles, on one side both ends are heavily frayed.. the end for the other side looks melted with a match/lighter.. 

Neither of these ends looks the same as the cuts on pink parachute cord. The cutting method was different and/or the cord was different. Perhaps the cords were cut by different people.

 

18799.jpeg.b6884a3879f8b3a5facff08984221090.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, all!

I'm posting here because I still haven't been approved by the admin at the DBCooper Forum after several weeks. I'm a college professor who has spent years researching the Zodiac Killer case. In my down time investigating the Zodiac, I have examined the Cooper case. I won't pretend to be an expert on the Cooper case, but I think my logical, fact-based approach would be helpful. 

(Full disclosure: I don't think Zodiac and Cooper were the same guy. In fact, I don't have a POI)

I'm inclined to believe that Cooper didn't survive the jump, but I'm open-minded.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to productive discussion!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

 

Mitchell is not presented with a full array of suspects. They show him only two pictures he could possibly recognize. One is of Richard McCoy, the other is Robert Rackstraw. Mitchell points out McCoy right away, saying he had heard of McCoy but that he wasn't Cooper. He fails to recognize Rackstraw. The other four pictures are just random faces put into their phony 'photo lineup'. 

 

Actually, what happened is that he pointed out Rackstraw and said that is Richard McCoy. There wasn't a picture of McCoy in that lineup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Hi, all!

I'm posting here because I still haven't been approved by the admin at the DBCooper Forum after several weeks. I'm a college professor who has spent years researching the Zodiac Killer case. In my down time investigating the Zodiac, I have examined the Cooper case. I won't pretend to be an expert on the Cooper case, but I think my logical, fact-based approach would be helpful. 

(Full disclosure: I don't think Zodiac and Cooper were the same guy. In fact, I don't have a POI)

I'm inclined to believe that Cooper didn't survive the jump, but I'm open-minded.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to productive discussion!

 

I've always been interested in the Zodiac case as well. I would love to see that one solved, and if he's still alive, I would love to see him fry.

As for Cooper, I've went back and forth on whether he survived or not, but I think he probably did survive. I also believe that he lost the money in the jump as well. Hopefully you get approved over at the Cooper Forum soon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
58 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Hi, all!

I'm posting here because I still haven't been approved by the admin at the DBCooper Forum after several weeks. I'm a college professor who has spent years researching the Zodiac Killer case. In my down time investigating the Zodiac, I have examined the Cooper case. I won't pretend to be an expert on the Cooper case, but I think my logical, fact-based approach would be helpful. 

(Full disclosure: I don't think Zodiac and Cooper were the same guy. In fact, I don't have a POI)

I'm inclined to believe that Cooper didn't survive the jump, but I'm open-minded.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to productive discussion!

 

Welcome to the Vortex, you can enter but you can never leave.. 

as for productive discussions, those are rare..

open-minded, logical fact based approaches are lacking..

 

For a long time I thought Cooper probably died in the jump, but now I think he survived, the jump was survivable if he pulled.. he might have lost some or all of the money though..

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it’s possible that he survived, but I don’t think it’s probable. I’m eager to hear information that would suggest otherwise.

My best guess is that he either became disoriented and/or entered into a non-recoverable spin after jumping and splashed down in the Columbia at 200+ mph. He died instantly. His body, along with the money, floated unseen downstream during the night before finally sinking and remaining submerged. Then the 1974 dredging tore open the money bag laying on the bottom and it ended up on Tena Bar.

Second option is that he managed to open the chute, but splashed down in the Columbia. The water landing at night are treacherous. A night landing making it even more so. Add in the cold water/weather and I think Cooper drowned, probably tangled in parcord or helplessly stuck between the canopy and the water.

I think the key lies in the missing persons. I have heard the FBI checked, but I am dubious of how extensive that search was. Was it a national search for missing persons or just regional? Did it include folks from Canada or Mexico? If you find a missing persons from around that time frame, you’ll likely find Cooper.

Again, just my partially informed opinion, and I am happy to hear opposing views and evidence. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
3 hours ago, Chaucer said:

I think it’s possible that he survived, but I don’t think it’s probable. I’m eager to hear information that would suggest otherwise.

My best guess is that he either became disoriented and/or entered into a non-recoverable spin after jumping and splashed down in the Columbia at 200+ mph. He died instantly. His body, along with the money, floated unseen downstream during the night before finally sinking and remaining submerged. Then the 1974 dredging tore open the money bag laying on the bottom and it ended up on Tena Bar.

Second option is that he managed to open the chute, but splashed down in the Columbia. The water landing at night are treacherous. A night landing making it even more so. Add in the cold water/weather and I think Cooper drowned, probably tangled in parcord or helplessly stuck between the canopy and the water.

I think the key lies in the missing persons. I have heard the FBI checked, but I am dubious of how extensive that search was. Was it a national search for missing persons or just regional? Did it include folks from Canada or Mexico? If you find a missing persons from around that time frame, you’ll likely find Cooper.

Again, just my partially informed opinion, and I am happy to hear opposing views and evidence. 

This case case is so difficult and divisive because there are really few facts and lots of conflicting and erroneos information even within the FBI documents. Those documents are investigative notes they aren't conclusions.. so they can be interpreted differently..

The best evidence supports a jump in the FBI zone roughly between Ariel and Battle Ground.. but of course it isn't a fact, Cooper may have jumped later.

The more information you have the better you get at assessing probabilities.. ultimately this case is a jigsaw puzzle with only 10% of the pieces in place. 50% of the pieces are jumbled 20% don't belong and 20% are missing..

My highest probability scenario is Cooper jumped N of Battle Ground around 8:12, pulled and landed safely perhaps a slight injury. He was likely the one who broke into the store next to the tracks at 11:30 PM and went South along the rail tracks to escape.. there is no way to prove it.

 

The FBI pinpointed a landing zone for Cooper based on evidence, that doesn't make it a fact but it is the highest probability.

almost 20,000 pages..

https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper

 

I did research missing Canadians years ago and found nothing.. 

Edited by FLYJACK
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

dudeman17, any clues here..

 

 

Linn Emrick DEC 71 showing his reserve chutes.. 

Looks like at least one (bigger one) has some short cords hanging others not...

Let's see if Shutter's clown show steals my post content...

 

One of the ends of those cords on Cooper's left reserve was burned/melted, that suggests a rigger did it.

 

Emrick said he grabbed training parachutes for Norjak.. 

 

EmrickchutesDEC71.thumb.jpg.59bde9d8c2c5518f55d75a4a10d406bc.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There does indeed appear to be lines with frayed ends coming off that container. It looks like there might be one coming off the top end of the one above it, draped over the nail that it's hanging on and over the clip. I'm at a loss as to why they'd be there. Stuff trailing from containers can have a nasty habit of snagging deploying parachutes and killing people. On the Cooper gear I just noticed that those lines weren't pink and the rest was speculation. Definitely a mystery. Is everyone sure that 377 never addressed this?

 

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

One of the ends of those cords on Cooper's left reserve was burned/melted, that suggests a rigger did it.

That is a common thing to prevent fraying. Might have just worn off of the other ones.

 

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Emrick said he grabbed training parachutes for Norjak.. 

That also is an interesting statement, at first read it sounds like the training dummy, but it means he was grabbing 'student gear', as opposed to somebody's personal gear. Drop zones maintain and supply the gear for student jumpers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)
26 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

There does indeed appear to be lines with frayed ends coming off that container. It looks like there might be one coming off the top end of the one above it, draped over the nail that it's hanging on and over the clip. I'm at a loss as to why they'd be there. Stuff trailing from containers can have a nasty habit of snagging deploying parachutes and killing people. On the Cooper gear I just noticed that those lines weren't pink and the rest was speculation. Definitely a mystery. Is everyone sure that 377 never addressed this?

 

That is a common thing to prevent fraying. Might have just worn off of the other ones.

 

That also is an interesting statement, at first read it sounds like the training dummy, but it means he was grabbing 'student gear', as opposed to somebody's personal gear. Drop zones maintain and supply the gear for student jumpers.

It was a good observation on your part, that white cord wasn't from the "pink" chute.. was it there prior or did Cooper add it?? 

The burned/melted end on one of the cords and the image of other Emrick chutes suggests the white cord was likely there before Cooper got it..

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Chaucer said:

I think it’s possible that he survived, but I don’t think it’s probable. I’m eager to hear information that would suggest otherwise.

My best guess is that he either became disoriented and/or entered into a non-recoverable spin after jumping and splashed down in the Columbia at 200+ mph. He died instantly. His body, along with the money, floated unseen downstream during the night before finally sinking and remaining submerged. Then the 1974 dredging tore open the money bag laying on the bottom and it ended up on Tena Bar.

Second option is that he managed to open the chute, but splashed down in the Columbia. The water landing at night are treacherous. A night landing making it even more so. Add in the cold water/weather and I think Cooper drowned, probably tangled in parcord or helplessly stuck between the canopy and the water.

I think the key lies in the missing persons. I have heard the FBI checked, but I am dubious of how extensive that search was. Was it a national search for missing persons or just regional? Did it include folks from Canada or Mexico? If you find a missing persons from around that time frame, you’ll likely find Cooper.

Again, just my partially informed opinion, and I am happy to hear opposing views and evidence. 

Welcome to the case.  When I saw Zodiac mentioned, my first thought was that you are wasting your time trying to get on the DB Cooper Forum, but then you let us know that you don't think Zodiac and DB Cooper are the same guy, so all good.  I think Shutter sees most of the posts here (he runs the Cooper Forum).  It's up to him to approve people.  You'll actually get some good discussion here, but definitely try to get on the DB Cooper Forum too.  The problem here is that it can go sideways quickly with spam, or incessant back and forth about personal disputes.  

As for the Columbia River theory.  A question for you:  What size area do you think the dropzone consisted of?  The plane is flying about 3 miles a minute, the winds are anywhere from zero to 20 (depending on who you talk to, or what altitude he was at), and he could have opened up at 10,000 feet or 1,000 feet.  Given that, what would a realistic search area be in square miles?  And where would that be centered around?  Ariel, Battle Ground, Vancouver, etc.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Welcome to the case.  When I saw Zodiac mentioned, my first thought was that you are wasting your time trying to get on the DB Cooper Forum, but then you let us know that you don't think Zodiac and DB Cooper are the same guy, so all good.  I think Shutter sees most of the posts here (he runs the Cooper Forum).  It's up to him to approve people.  You'll actually get some good discussion here, but definitely try to get on the DB Cooper Forum too.  The problem here is that it can go sideways quickly with spam, or incessant back and forth about personal disputes.  

As for the Columbia River theory.  A question for you:  What size area do you think the dropzone consisted of?  The plane is flying about 3 miles a minute, the winds are anywhere from zero to 20 (depending on who you talk to, or what altitude he was at), and he could have opened up at 10,000 feet or 1,000 feet.  Given that, what would a realistic search area be in square miles?  And where would that be centered around?  Ariel, Battle Ground, Vancouver, etc.

 

 

Yeah, I have tried 3 times in 2 years to get in the Forum. Never get approved lol

No, Cooper and Zodiac are absolutely two different guys and two different cases. 

Lastly, I have no idea how large a search area would be. I know initially the search was primarily around Ariel and Lake Merwin. However, recently the timing of the “pressure bump” had been called into question. I read that the co-pilot stated that they could see the lights of the Portland suburbs (Vancouver) around the time the Cooper jumped. My guess is he jumped around Marine Park and the forward throw of the plane would splash him down Just offshore somewhere between what are now the I-5 and I-205 bridges.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

47 47