DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

The C-130 had rear ramp controls,, 

Did it also have cockpit ramp controls??

[dudeman17 267]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Anybody know.. back in Nov 1971..

Did/would McChord have back chutes equipped with AAD?

 

 

That might be a good question for the Gear and Rigging thread. There're some very knowledgable riggers there, like JerryBaumchen and RiggerLee.

My guess is that I'm not sure but seriously doubt it. Early AAD's were designed for front reserves. Paratrooper mains were static line. Bailout rigs wouldn't have them. Emergency bailouts are a seat-of-your-pants affair. You wouldn't know beforehand where you're going to be or the elevation of the ground you're over. Also, early AAD's were kind of iffy, they had a possibility of mis-firing when they weren't supposed to. The possibility of that happening in the plane would be extremely hazardous. Early sport jumpers did not like them, to the point of not wanting to jump with people who had them. They were used primarily on students.

 

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The excuse that Cooper rejected McChord chutes because they were static line is not credible.

That depends. If they sent paratrooper rigs, then they would likely have been static line and useless to Cooper. If they sent bailout rigs, then you'd be right.

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

That might be a good question for the Gear and Rigging thread. There're some very knowledgable riggers there, like JerryBaumchen and RiggerLee.

My guess is that I'm not sure but seriously doubt it. Early AAD's were designed for front reserves. Paratrooper mains were static line. Bailout rigs wouldn't have them. Emergency bailouts are a seat-of-your-pants affair. You wouldn't know beforehand where you're going to be or the elevation of the ground you're over. Also, early AAD's were kind of iffy, they had a possibility of mis-firing when they weren't supposed to. The possibility of that happening in the plane would be extremely hazardous. Early sport jumpers did not like them, to the point of not wanting to jump with people who had them. They were used primarily on students.

 

That depends. If they sent paratrooper rigs, then they would likely have been static line and useless to Cooper. If they sent bailout rigs, then you'd be right.

Call them whatever you want, but at least some USAF emergency parachutes in 1971 had automatic openers that usually were set to open the chute at 14,000 feet.  I have been in pressure chamber training where these automatic openers were demonstrated and they always opened right on schedule.

And I know of emergency ejections where the pilot was unconscious from the time he pulled the ejection lever until he woke up in the hospital. 

[FLYJACK 654]

I can't see McChord considering or sending static line chutes for a 727 hijacking.. it just doesn't make sense.. obviously a commercial jet is not equipped for static line.

So, how could Cooper reject them.. 

Either they sent chutes that weren't static line (maybe AAD?) or they didn't send any and couldn't find any that were not static line, but that doesn't seem likely.

[dudeman17 267]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Call them whatever you want, but at least some USAF emergency parachutes in 1971 had automatic openers that usually were set to open the chute at 14,000 feet.  I have been in pressure chamber training where these automatic openers were demonstrated and they always opened right on schedule.

And I know of emergency ejections where the pilot was unconscious from the time he pulled the ejection lever until he woke up in the hospital. 

Well, that's why I said I wasn't sure, I know the military has their own systems.

BUT

What you're describing was probably most likely found on ejection systems for high speed fighters. They have a lot of different ways to stage and deploy parachutes for high speed ejections, a lot of which would be to slow the pilot down and get him to a lower altitude before deploying the final canopy. I think it might be unlikely to find an AAD on a standard bailout rig for a bomber crew, but even bailing out of a bomber at high altitude could result in hypoxia issues, so maybe they did. I dunno, like I said, this would be a good question to post in the Gear and Rigging section.

[Robert99 37]

52 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Well, that's why I said I wasn't sure, I know the military has their own systems.

BUT

What you're describing was probably most likely found on ejection systems for high speed fighters. They have a lot of different ways to stage and deploy parachutes for high speed ejections, a lot of which would be to slow the pilot down and get him to a lower altitude before deploying the final canopy. I think it might be unlikely to find an AAD on a standard bailout rig for a bomber crew, but even bailing out of a bomber at high altitude could result in hypoxia issues, so maybe they did. I dunno, like I said, this would be a good question to post in the Gear and Rigging section.

Even in 1971, ejection seats had the capability of keeping the pilot in the seat when at high altitudes until it slowed down and then physically separating him from the seat.  After that, it was a free fall down to a lower altitude (usually 14,000 feet) where the parachute automatically opened unless the pilot pulled the rip cord at a higher altitude.  For ejections below 14,000 feet, the parachute would automatically deploy as soon as the seat slowed down a bit which usually only required about 3 or 4 seconds.

These parachute rigs had a constant flow oxygen system that kept 100 percent oxygen going into the pilot's mask at quite a bit of pressure for about 10 minutes.  When on this oxygen system, the pressure was high enough that it was difficult to exhale.  It in effect pressurized your lungs.

I believe that two crew members on B-52s still have to bail out through a hatch in the bottom of the aircraft.  At least that is the way is used to be.

The modern zero-zero ejection seats are highly engineered to cover just about all realistic possibilities.      

[CooperNWO305 146]

Does anyone know what Air Force units were stationed at McChord in November of 1971 in terms of bombers or cargo planes that might have flown with just regular backpack chutes versus ejection chutes?  Any Army freefall jumpers at Fort Lewis?

It definitely would have sucked if you're DB Cooper and you ask for parachutes and get static lines or ones with AAD's.

[FLYJACK 654]

37 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Does anyone know what Air Force units were stationed at McChord in November of 1971 in terms of bombers or cargo planes that might have flown with just regular backpack chutes versus ejection chutes?  Any Army freefall jumpers at Fort Lewis?

It definitely would have sucked if you're DB Cooper and you ask for parachutes and get static lines or ones with AAD's.

That is the deal,, no way they send static line chutes to a commercial 727 and hard to believe they didn't have bailout rigs available..

[FLYJACK 654]

D B Cooper letter,,, "The System That Beats The System"  

 

A little OT, but serious, but this Covid-19 has the potential to take down the entire global financial system... Covid-19 is the pin that popped the debt bubble...

prepare... food, supplies, cash, gold...

Edited March 12, 2020 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 267]

6 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

It definitely would have sucked if you're DB Cooper and you ask for parachutes and get... ... ones with AAD's.

Not necessarily. Thinking it through theoretically, if all of R99's assertions are correct and Cooper jumps, flails uncontrollably, loses his wits and is unable to do anything, that AAD may be what saves him. However, like he said, military AAD's open high - he says 14k, I've heard of some that fire at 10k, so if he exits at or below 10k, not sure how that would work. If that door is floating up and down, causing pressure fluctuations, and the AAD fires before he leaves the plane, that would be a problem. Obviously that didn't happen, but... Shrug...

[FLYJACK 654]

Maybe it has something to with beepers,,, the static line chute refusal seems like disinformation to me.. is the FBI hiding info..

 

Hahneman got chutes from Andrews AFB and they were equiped with beepers..

 

remember this odd FBI document..

 

 

and this one, two back packs military olive drab green containers... that doesn't match Hayden's pair or Cossey's back chutes claims. An error or could these have been from McChord..

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 37]

39 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Maybe it has something to with beepers,,, the static line chute refusal seems like disinformation to me.. is the FBI hiding info..

As I pointed out a number of days ago, Cooper probably refused parachutes from McChord because they contained beepers that operated on 121.5 and 343.0 which are the VHF and UHF emergency frequencies.  Signals from these beepers could be used to locate the crew members who had bailed out.

At the same time in 1971, the FAA was mandating that general aviation aircraft be equipment with Emergency Locator Beacons that operated on these same frequencies and that were activated by impact or could be turned on with a switch.

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

As I pointed out a number of days ago, Cooper probably refused parachutes from McChord because they contained beepers that operated on 121.5 and 343.0 which are the VHF and UHF emergency frequencies.  Signals from these beepers could be used to locate the crew members who had bailed out.

At the same time in 1971, the FAA was mandating that general aviation aircraft be equipment with Emergency Locator Beacons that operated on these same frequencies and that were activated by impact or could be turned on with a switch.

You say "probably"...   that is just a wild guess...  media reported they were rejected because they were static line, that makes no sense. No way McChord would consider static chutes for a commercial 727..

Granted, we know very little about the McChord chutes..

Were they actually sent?

Cooper expected the chutes from McChord so when did he reject them? Did he see them? How did he know they needed to be rejected after he commented they were coming from McChord,, none of it makes any sense. The FBI is hiding something.

Himmelsbach also claimed Cooper requested chutes from McChord??

Edited March 13, 2020 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You say "probably"...   that is just a wild guess...  media reported they were rejected because they were static line, that makes no sense. No way McChord would consider static chutes for a commercial 727..

Granted, we know very little about the McChord chutes..

Were they actually sent?

Cooper expected the chutes from McChord so when did he reject them? Did he see them? How did he know they needed to be rejected after he commented they were coming from McChord,, none of it makes any sense. The FBI is hiding something.

Himmelsbach also claimed Cooper requested chutes from McChord??

Unless you can read minds, neither you or anyone else knows exactly why Cooper rejected the McChord parachutes.  Beepers were routinely used in USAF emergency parachutes in 1971.  End of conversation on this silly point.

[FLYJACK 654]

7 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Unless you can read minds, neither you or anyone else knows exactly why Cooper rejected the McChord parachutes.  Beepers were routinely used in USAF emergency parachutes in 1971.  End of conversation on this silly point.

You are the one claiming to read minds claiming it was the beepers...  the news articles claimed it was the static line chutes.

 

The FBI documents confirm that Cooper believed the chutes were coming from McChord..

So, how does Cooper go from expecting chutes from McCord to rejecting them??

Edited March 13, 2020 by FLYJACK

[ParrotheadVol 70]

22 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

D B Cooper letter,,, "The System That Beats The System"  

 

A little OT, but serious, but this Covid-19 has the potential to take down the entire global financial system... Covid-19 is the pin that popped the debt bubble...

prepare... food, supplies, cash, gold...

I disagree on the gold part, but the food and supplies for sure. My biggest concern is my daughter, who has Celiac disease is a very picky eater. So, I'm just trying to get enough food on hand for her...just in case. Personally, I think this thing starts getting better as the weather warms and it's probably a good thing that this is happening now instead of October or November, but we'll see. As for me, I'm still planning on going on my cruise next week if it doesn't get cancelled. What I don't understand (and this isn't a shot a Blevins although I'm sure it will be seen as such), is why cancel things that are a couple of months out? If it hasn't subsided by then, cancel then. My daughters school is talking about canceling her prom and it's two months away. I don't get it. I wasn't thrilled about paying $600 for a dress that is only going to be worn once, now it may not get worn at all. And before you ask, it isn't my size.

Edited March 13, 2020 by ParrotheadVol

[FLYJACK 654]

The aft airstairs is not a true "red herring", the take away is that Cooper was not familiar with their operation. He was not a 727 "expert" or an informed Boeing employee. He may have had exposure to another aircraft likely military with rear ramp controls in cockpit, I am looking for that..

"Negotiable currency" has no significance to me.. The pilot used "American" and Tina recalled Cooper later said "US" currency.... that is significant. It suggests that Cooper had "recent" experience with foreign currency. It would be very rare for somebody who has never left the US to use "American" or "US" to define the only money they ever experienced... that is something that somebody with foreign currency experience would do. IMO, Cooper likely had significant and recent exposure to foreign currency outside the US. 

Edited March 13, 2020 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 37]

42 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The aft airstairs is not a true "red herring", the take away is that Cooper was not familiar with their operation. He was not a 727 "expert" or an informed Boeing employee. He may have had exposure to another aircraft likely military with rear ramp controls in cockpit, I am looking for that..

"Negotiable currency" has no significance to me.. The pilot used "American" and Tina recalled Cooper later said "US" currency.... that is significant. It suggests that Cooper had "recent" experience with foreign currency. It would be very rare for somebody who has never left the US to use "American" or "US" to define the only money they ever experienced... that is something that somebody with foreign currency experience would do. IMO, Cooper likely had significant and recent exposure to foreign currency outside the US. 

You need to sit down again and get another good grip on yourself.  I agree with you that Cooper apparently had some very recent exposure with foreign currency.

[FLYJACK 654]

Here is a random Steinthal chute,,,

Manufactured 1966

serial number 66-12982, format is "66" = year

 

Back chute Cooper left on plane serial number 60-9707 manufactured 1960 is consistent with Steinthal serial number system. The one Hayden got back was S/N 226 manufactured 1957. These are two different chutes, both Hayden's.

What did Cooper jump with?

 

 

A 24' Pioneer emergency rig 1946. 24' bailout rigs wasn't rare, I found a bunch through the 60's.

 

Edited March 14, 2020 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

Back in 1970, the emergency bailout rigs with Auto Opening Devices can work on timers...

 

News reports claimed Cooper rejected McChord chutes because he wanted a manual release.

One news report claimed Cooper rejected because he wanted a manual release.. They weren't static line, they had to be AOD's... the static line reports were wrong. There is no way McChord would even consider static line chutes. 

 

The big question,, Did Cooper use one from Cossey or McChord??. He rejected the one from Hayden and left it.

 

For some odd reason the FBI docs are missing info on the delivery and "rejection" of the McChord chutes..

Edited March 14, 2020 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

I doubt we had anything else other than Hayden's chutes and Cossey's chest packs and a bunch of confused agents writing things down...the first part of the serial numbers also don't always reflect the manufactured year...the pink parachute serial number is 58-53912 and was manufactured in 1959. the number doesn't start with 59....

WRONG,,,, 

58-53912 ,,,  58 = year 1958 for the year of fabric manufacture. The year of chute manufacture is 1959. The date for fabric manufacture can be a year prior to the chute manufacture date but usually they match. That is the Steinthal system..

 

The parachute drama seems to never end...

1) 226 is not a "serial number' nor is 9/57

WRONG.. 226 is the serial number and 9/57 is the date of manufacture for the chute returned to Hayden. Look at the packing card from Hayden's chute. It is irrefutable.

2) the Steinthal mentioned is the canopy itself and not the container and is not included in the evidence sheet.

Steinthal canopy is 60-9707 consistent with a 1960 manufacture date and Steinthal serial numbering system.

3) one documents states it's a pioneer and the other a Steinthal. 

The one left on the plane is a Steinthal. 

 

The FBI screwed up the data descriptors for "S/N", "TYPE" and "DATE" but the data is correct. If you look at the packing card the descriptor is below the line, but it can easily misread as above the data. They just got the descriptor wrong based on a poorly designed packing card.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/11/26/archives/hijacker-collects-ransom-of-200000-parachutes-from-jet-and.html

 

"The parachutes, which are not, in ordinary use in commercial air travel, proved another problem. Two military models were found at McChord Air Force Base in Tacoma and rushed to the Seattle field. When the hijacker learned that military models were being supplied, he demanded that sport models be made available instead. These were found at a nearby airfield used by sky divers.

The difference In the two kinds of parachutes—a difference that was to prove significant later in the evening—is that the military models open automatically after about 200 feet whereas users of sports chutes can free fall as long as they like before pulling the ripcord."

[FLYJACK 654]

YIKES, this is so simple. You guys have completely missed this for almost a decade and still can't see it right in front of you..

60-9707 is only 6 digits...Steinthal in photo is 66-12982 consistent with most chutes. 226 matches nothing and proves nothing given those numbers...

60 = the year of the chute manufacture (not fabric manufacture), 9707 and 12982 is the S/N sequence number consistent with Steinthal parachute numbering system. The 226 is the S/N for the chute returned to Hayden, it is probably not a Steinthal chute. The FBI docs I've already posted match the S/N 226 for the chute returned to Hayden in 1975 to the one returned to Hayden. There is no question that the S/N for the chute returned to Hayden is 226. << that number suggests it is not a Steinthal.

The packing card appears to be a new one with Hayden's chute. no others packed it prior to Cossey? the date on the strap pf Hayden's chute states APRIL 4/57 while the card states SEPT 9/57. that's also wrong. the "226" is carried over from the description above it..."26' ripstop conical 226"

The packing card is not new, the reverse side has it packed by Cossey May 21, 1971.. I assume the card can be replaced anytime a chute is legally repacked. There is no issue there. Completely irrelevant. It was packed prior to NORJAK.

I explained the problem with the misreading of descriptors on the packing card above, it is irrelevant, the data is correct you can see it on the card, if you still can't get it I can't help you.

The date on the strap is for the harness not the parachute,, the parachute date is on the card Sept 1957.

It is all there, you just can't see it for some reason.

COOPER DID NOT USE EITHER OF HAYDEN"S CHUTES.. PERIOD, there is no way around it. 

So did he take Cossey's or McChord's,,, I may have figured that out,,,, The FBI has been looking for wrong chute, at least publicly.

Edited March 14, 2020 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 146]

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/11/26/archives/hijacker-collects-ransom-of-200000-parachutes-from-jet-and.html

 

"The parachutes, which are not, in ordinary use in commercial air travel, proved another problem. Two military models were found at McChord Air Force Base in Tacoma and rushed to the Seattle field. When the hijacker learned that military models were being supplied, he demanded that sport models be made available instead. These were found at a nearby airfield used by sky divers.

The difference In the two kinds of parachutes—a difference that was to prove significant later in the evening—is that the military models open automatically after about 200 feet whereas users of sports chutes can free fall as long as they like before pulling the ripcord."

Fly. I’m trying to visualize this. Cooper says no to military chutes, but he ends up using a military chute or a partial military chute given it was 1971?  Or was it that he used a civilian container that had a military harness with a military canopy? 
 

I have not spent a lot of time on the chutes, except to zero in on the fact that he put on a harness easily. I assumed the harness was military spec. 
 

As always, great info. Although I respect the FBI, they are not infallible. I still think there are Cooper researchers who know more about the case than any agent, simply for the fact that an independent researcher can stay on the case for much longer. 

[FLYJACK 654]

I am moving on to figure out the chute Cooper did take,, if people can't see that there is no way he took either of Hayden's I can't waste anymore time on what I already know to be settled, everything is posted to figure it out.

 

Now, I found information to suggest there were two parachute deliveries to the plane. 

For Cooper to reject the chutes from McChord he had to have seen them. They may have been placed on the plane earlier and Tina brought the replacement back chutes on with the fronts.

The FBI is hiding info and engaged in disinformation... they may have been doing it intentionally to keep chute info secret or they may have completely screwed this up..

I now think it is possible Cooper used a McChord chute with an AAD and probably contained a beeper.