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DB Cooper

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3 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

He would have trouble stabilizing because of a 20 pound bag of money tied to his body, but not because it was dark or he could not see the horizon.  If he had any skydiving experience, or parachute free fall training, he would have known to arch his body.  He could have done this in the dark, or with his eyes closed.

 

377 has posted on the adjustments he had to make during free falls after he tied an equipment bag to one leg.  And this was during a daylight jump.  Unless Cooper pulled the ripcord while on the bottom of the stairs, he would tumble and that is all there is to it.

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6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

You do have to have experience to put on a military harness quickly without instructions..

Knowing how to put on a military parachute, or any other type of parachute, does not make you a skydiver.  You become a skydiver by making actual parachute jumps.

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(edited)

I believe we are talking about the same things, but in different contexts.

Putting on a harness quickly indicates that Cooper was familiar with harnesses, but it does not necessarily indicate that he was an experienced skydiver.  I think Fly, R99, and I would agree on this.  One group that would be good with harnesses would be aircrews.

Where we may diverge is on the level of skydiving experience, and whether or not this would have resulted in his survival.  I'm of the Martin Andrade school where I think he could have jumped out and been a lot like a pilot or aircrew bailing out of a plane.  Most pilots and aircrews that bailed out of planes (B-17s in WW2, F-4's in Vietnam, etc.) would likely have been on their first jump.  The intent was not for these guys to jump out of a plane, but to land in the plane.  The military does not send all aircrews through parachute training, just basic bail out techniques and survival.

Remember, parachutes were for getting out of a damaged plane, they were not meant for fun.  In most cases the chutes worked.  If a kid jumping from a burning B-17 over Germany could pull a ripcord, then DB Cooper could have too, especially if he did it while sitting on the back stairs. No one was shooting at him, the plane was not in flames.

I believe Cooper knew how to put on a harness, but was not a skilled skydiver.  He could have had a few jumps.  He may have practiced in the military, even gotten on a plane back when there were not as many rules as today.  He may have practiced a jump at a place like Elsinore.

It is also possible that Cooper never actually parachuted out of a plane, but did have parachute experience.  How is this possible? Well, the Navy trained their air crews in parachute techniques using a para sail type set up.  Army Airborne used towers.

Edited by CooperNWO305

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(edited)
24 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Knowing how to put on a military parachute, or any other type of parachute, does not make you a skydiver.  You become a skydiver by making actual parachute jumps.

It indicates Cooper had experience with a military harness.

How many people have military harness experience and ZERO training or jumps?

Edited by FLYJACK

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8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It indicates Cooper had experience with a military harness.

Tina reportedly observed Cooper putting on the back pack and said that he seemed to do it without any difficulty.  It is unknown if Tina had ever seen anyone put on a parachute before this incident.

But putting on an NB6 harness is a bit more involved than putting on your standard military or civilian parachute harness.  So it does suggest that Cooper had experience with military parachutes.

In 1971, there were plenty of NB6 parachutes in the civilian market.  But if Cooper got NB6 experience in the military, it would almost certainly be with the Navy.  

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A good thing about these forums is that the discussion keeps us current on the case and keeps ideas flowing through our brains.  I need a refresher often.

Question: Today the skydiving rigs are all mainly civilian, and are not similar to military chutes.  However, in 1971 the sport was just advancing, and skydiving rigs could be composites of different types of chutes, harnesses, containers, etc.

Would someone who had a few skydives under their belt necessarily be familiar with putting on a military harness?  Could their jumps have all been with more civilian type gear?

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47 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Tina reportedly observed Cooper putting on the back pack and said that he seemed to do it without any difficulty.  It is unknown if Tina had ever seen anyone put on a parachute before this incident.

But putting on an NB6 harness is a bit more involved than putting on your standard military or civilian parachute harness.  So it does suggest that Cooper had experience with military parachutes.

In 1971, there were plenty of NB6 parachutes in the civilian market.  But if Cooper got NB6 experience in the military, it would almost certainly be with the Navy.  

Cooper also rejected the instructions...

Hard to imagine somebody with NO training or experience about to make their first jump out the back of a 727 rejecting the parachute instructions.

The evidence indicates Cooper had at least some parachute training or experience.

Edited by FLYJACK

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Think about it like this.  Have you ever been on a boat and gone through the training in case it sinks?  You put on a life jacket, you tie it, you get ready to get in life boats, you talk about what to do, etc.  But sometimes you never really actually get into the water.  That's the difference between an exercise and the real thing.  The military does this all the time, it's called training.

Cooper could easily have been an aircrew member who trained for the eventuality of jumping from a plane, but may actually have not ever jumped from a plane.  Larry Carr called Cooper a know it all, one who got the broad strokes down, but not the details.  Cooper could have had all the practice steps down, and that one day in 1971 decided to take the final step of jumping in the water so to say.

Hahneman was an aircrew member, so he would know harnesses, but did he ever jump (until 1972?).  He may never have jumped until that one day, but he was comfortable right up to the point that he left the aircraft, so it was not a huge leap for him to go that last few inches.

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9 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Think about it like this.  Have you ever been on a boat and gone through the training in case it sinks?  You put on a life jacket, you tie it, you get ready to get in life boats, you talk about what to do, etc.  But sometimes you never really actually get into the water.  That's the difference between an exercise and the real thing.  The military does this all the time, it's called training.

Cooper could easily have been an aircrew member who trained for the eventuality of jumping from a plane, but may actually have not ever jumped from a plane.  Larry Carr called Cooper a know it all, one who got the broad strokes down, but not the details.  Cooper could have had all the practice steps down, and that one day in 1971 decided to take the final step of jumping in the water so to say.

Hahneman was an aircrew member, so he would know harnesses, but did he ever jump (until 1972?).  He may never have jumped until that one day, but he was comfortable right up to the point that he left the aircraft, so it was not a huge leap for him to go that last few inches.

 

FBI confirmed Hahneman was on an aircrew in WW2. They claimed he was also in Korea and Vietnam but I can't find any military record for those. He claimed he was a Vietnam veteran and paratrooper but I have not confirmed either. It was common for him to embellish and tell half truths.. He worked in various countries in South East Asia for most of the 1960's under several contracts.. until Aug 1971. 

When Hahneman jumped in '72  he took apart one of the chutes and left the parts on the plane, he walked backward down the airstairs and went off back first. That was the method 377 suggested for Cooper. He did not ask for airstair operation instruction..

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29 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

FBI confirmed Hahneman was on an aircrew in WW2. They claimed he was also in Korea and Vietnam but I can't find any military record for those. He claimed he was a Vietnam veteran and paratrooper but I have not confirmed either. It was common for him to embellish and tell half truths.. He worked in various countries in South East Asia for most of the 1960's under several contracts.. until Aug 1971. 

When Hahneman jumped in '72  he took apart one of the chutes and left the parts on the plane, he walked backward down the airstairs and went off back first. That was the method 377 suggested for Cooper. He did not ask for airstair operation instruction..

Flyjack: Are you of the belief that Cooper jumped with a military rig vs a civilian rig and that he could have chosen either a civilian rig or military rig, but chose the military rig?  That's my understanding.

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27 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Flyjack: Are you of the belief that Cooper jumped with a military rig vs a civilian rig and that he could have chosen either a civilian rig or military rig, but chose the military rig?  That's my understanding.

I believe so,, but the FBI mix up with the rigs makes it uncertain the rig Cooper actually took.

He left Hayden's rig for sure.

He likely took Cossey's custom NB6/8 but there is a possibility he took one from McChord.

It is complex.. the FBI parachute descriptions conflict in more than one dimension, Hayden vs Cossey and colours, if you know what I mean. 

Cossey claimed his NB6/8 was a sage green harness and sage green container..

FBI file,,, both back chutes olive drab,

FBI file,,, back chutes,, one tan, one olive drab

FBI file,,, unsub used sage green parachute

Hayden claimed his chutes were identical.

 

Important, Cossey was informed of the chutes left on the plane and ASSUMED Cooper used his sage green/sage green NB6/8 by elimination..  Cossey didn't know about Hayden's chute or that the FBI potentially mixed them up.. Cossey rejected found chutes that were not sage green/sage green based on an assumption,, this may or may not have been correct. This throws into doubt all the chutes Cossey rejected.

 

 

Tina,,

"She also commented that he appeared to be completely familiar with the parachutes which had been furnished to him"

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I believe so,, but the FBI mix up with the rigs makes it uncertain the rig Cooper actually took.

He left Hayden's rig for sure.

He likely took Cossey's custom NB6/8 but there is a possibility he took one from McChord.

It is complex.. the FBI parachute descriptions conflict in more than one dimension, Hayden vs Cossey and colours, if you know what I mean. 

Cossey claimed his NB6/8 was a sage green harness and sage green container..

FBI file,,, both back chutes olive drab,

FBI file,,, one tan, one olive drab

Hayden claimed his chutes were identical.

 

Important, Cossey was informed of the chutes left on the plane and ASSUMED Cooper used his sage green/sage green NB6/8 by elimination..  Cossey didn't know about Hayden's chute or that the FBI potentially mixed them up.. Cossey rejected found chutes that were not sage green/sage green based on an assumption,, this may or may not have been correct. This throws into doubt all the chutes Cossey rejected.

 

 

Tina,,

"She also commented that he appeared to be completely familiar with the parachutes which had been furnished to him"

 

On The Cooper Vortex episode with Martin Andrade, he mentions that his dad who was a fighter pilot tried to put on the same type of chute that Cooper likely used, and it took him a little while.  Martin Jr. also wore harnesses a lot in his job, and he found it difficult to put on.  So from that perspective, even someone with harness or parachute experience could find it difficult to put on the Cooper chute.  Cooper did it easily, which opens up some questions.  Was he faking it? Did he have experience with that chute/harness, or maybe experience with multiple types of harnesses?

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6 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

On The Cooper Vortex episode with Martin Andrade, he mentions that his dad who was a fighter pilot tried to put on the same type of chute that Cooper likely used, and it took him a little while.  Martin Jr. also wore harnesses a lot in his job, and he found it difficult to put on.  So from that perspective, even someone with harness or parachute experience could find it difficult to put on the Cooper chute.  Cooper did it easily, which opens up some questions.  Was he faking it? Did he have experience with that chute/harness, or maybe experience with multiple types of harnesses?

That is right, I remembered reading that but couldn't recall the source..

I think Martin wrote about it as well..

Edited by FLYJACK

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14 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Parachute malfunctions may be rare but I had a rotating streamer on my 9th jump and the Great Amazon, of DZ fame, has told me that she came down on her reserve on her 10th jump. 

Sure, mains do occasionally malfunction. I had my first at about 50 jumps, a partial inversion on a Para-Commander, and I've had a fair handful of them over the years. But his chances of having one on a round reserve packed by a rigger are extremely slim.

14 hours ago, Robert99 said:

As I stated in the original post, Cooper would have had big time problems stabilizing since he did not have reference to a horizon or anything else due to the darkness and overcast and other cloud layers.

This is just not accurate. First, for an experienced jumper, the first point of reference is the direction of the relative wind. And whether he's experienced or not, it's not like he's in a total black void. In rainy, drizzly, total overcast conditions, the clouds are usually fairly low. At 10 grand, Cooper is most likely above all that and under clear skies. There would be ambient light. Not sure how much, I've asked this before and got no answer, but does anyone know what the moon was that night? But whatever the moon, there would be stars out. All that light would reflect off the top of the clouds, and that would be as or more visible than dark ground terrain on a clear night. Been there, seen that.

7 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

He would have trouble stabilizing because of a 20 pound bag of money tied to his body

Consider modern tandem instructors (I am one). We jump with full sized people attached to us. Sure, we teach them to give us a decent body position on exit, but sometimes they are, shall we say, somewhat uncooperative. That doesn't normally kill us.

4 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Unless Cooper pulled the ripcord while on the bottom of the stairs, he would tumble and that is all there is to it.

As I stated before, a tumbling deployment would be unlikely to kill him.

4 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Question: Today the skydiving rigs are all mainly civilian, and are not similar to military chutes.  However, in 1971 the sport was just advancing, and skydiving rigs could be composites of different types of chutes, harnesses, containers, etc.

Would someone who had a few skydives under their belt necessarily be familiar with putting on a military harness?  Could their jumps have all been with more civilian type gear?

In those days, much if not most or all civilian sport gear was in fact military surplus. Parachute containers are fairly simple devices and they all work off the same principles. So while there are differences, they are all fairly similar. As for harnesses, the hunan body is what it is. They too are all pretty much the same. There're a couple leg straps, you put your arms through the main lift webs, and there's a chest strap and sometimes a belly band. Even with no experience, it wouldn't be hard to figure it out.

Even today, civilian sport and military rigs are pretty much the same, usually manufactured by the same companies. And most military jump schools use civilian contractor instructors.

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36 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Sure, mains do occasionally malfunction. I had my first at about 50 jumps, a partial inversion on a Para-Commander, and I've had a fair handful of them over the years. But his chances of having one on a round reserve packed by a rigger are extremely slim.

This is just not accurate. First, for an experienced jumper, the first point of reference is the direction of the relative wind. And whether he's experienced or not, it's not like he's in a total black void. In rainy, drizzly, total overcast conditions, the clouds are usually fairly low. At 10 grand, Cooper is most likely above all that and under clear skies. There would be ambient light. Not sure how much, I've asked this before and got no answer, but does anyone know what the moon was that night? But whatever the moon, there would be stars out. All that light would reflect off the top of the clouds, and that would be as or more visible than dark ground terrain on a clear night. Been there, seen that.

Consider modern tandem instructors (I am one). We jump with full sized people attached to us. Sure, we teach them to give us a decent body position on exit, but sometimes they are, shall we say, somewhat uncooperative. That doesn't normally kill us.

As I stated before, a tumbling deployment would be unlikely to kill him.

In those days, much if not most or all civilian sport gear was in fact military surplus. Parachute containers are fairly simple devices and they all work off the same principles. So while there are differences, they are all fairly similar. As for harnesses, the hunan body is what it is. They too are all pretty much the same. There're a couple leg straps, you put your arms through the main lift webs, and there's a chest strap and sometimes a belly band. Even with no experience, it wouldn't be hard to figure it out.

Even today, civilian sport and military rigs are pretty much the same, usually manufactured by the same companies. And most military jump schools use civilian contractor instructors.

The malfunction I experienced was using a 28 foot emergency parachute that had a 5-TU modification.  This parachute was packed by my instructor, who was also a rigger, and myself.  The reserve parachute that I used was also packed by my instructor.  And the instructor/rigger was amply rewarded with the beverage of his choice.

The cemeteries are filled with pilots who though they could fly under IFR conditions without any training or gyro instruments.  Basically, the same thing applies in the Cooper jump.  There is no information available on the cloud conditions above the airliner.  A weather front was moving out of the area, but it is unlikely that Cooper could have had any meaningful references to help him stabilize even if he was an experienced jumper.

From what I have seen of tandem jumpers, they deploy a stabilizing drag chute almost immediately after exiting the jump aircraft and they do that during good weather conditions.  

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1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

...that you know what you're talking about or are willing to learn.

Don't waste too much time on it..

R99 has pushed his theory for a decade that the flightpath was actually over TBAR and Cooper died over TBAR.. There is no evidence for it and he will bend reality, manufacture evidence and deny reason to defend his theory. Toxic confirmation bias..

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

They didn't open the back chute in Reno that Cooper left, the info came from the packing card in the pocket.

S/N 60-9707 - that does not match the packing card (S/N 226) for the chute returned to Hayden. CHECK-MATE.

 

chutefoundnorjak.jpeg.830908f0812f48a5ab76782bd33baca2.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

Hayden's chute was returned in 1975 according to FBI docs..

Incidentally, in a 1976 newspaper article in the FBI docs Cossey claimed his chute left on the plane had been returned to him..

 

Did Cossey get Hayden's chute in 1975? then back to Hayden in 1982?

Doubt it, Bruce probably has the date wrong.

Hayden said it was repacked in '82 after its return, not it was returned in '82.

 

chuterethayden.jpeg.1cf46fbc2ad8f08ce3116e1bd1e24dfa.jpeg.5ed28e7df60b49314a588139ba4bd40b.jpeg

 

 

cosseychutereturned.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Hayden's chute was returned in 1975 according to FBI docs..

Incidentally, in a 1976 newspaper article in the FBI docs Cossey claimed his chute left on the plane had been returned to him..

 

Did Cossey get Hayden's chute in 1975? then back to Hayden in 1982?

Doubt it, Bruce probably has the date wrong.

Hayden said it was repacked in '82 after its return, not it was returned in '82.

 

chuterethayden.jpeg.1cf46fbc2ad8f08ce3116e1bd1e24dfa.jpeg.5ed28e7df60b49314a588139ba4bd40b.jpeg

 

 

cosseychutereturned.jpeg

Flyjack, get a good grip on yourself.  We may actually agree on something.  In all probability the FBI did return Hayden's parachute to him in 1975 and not either of the 1981 or 1982 dates claimed by Bruce Smith.

Do you happen to know the exact time that the FBI contacted Cossey about the hijacking?

And again, the numbers 226 and 60-9707 are not likely to be serial numbers.  At least the 60-9707 was probably a part number and who knows where the 226 number originated.

Edited by Robert99

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(edited)
8 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Flyjack, get a good grip on yourself.  We may actually agree on something.  In all probability the FBI did return Hayden's parachute to him in 1975 and not either of the 1981 or 1982 dates claimed by Bruce Smith.

Do you happen to know the exact time that the FBI contacted Cossey about the hijacking?

And again, the numbers 226 and 60-9707 are not likely to be serial numbers.  At least the 60-9707 was probably a part number and who knows where the 226 number originated.

It gets a bit frustrating when I post information and it gets ignored.. I have to repost it over and over and over...

The packing card for the chute returned to Hayden clearly states S/N 226.. 1957. The FBI docs also state S/N 226.. 

The packing card for the chute left on the plane S/N is 60-9707.. 1960. I looked up similar S/N's and the "60" before the "-" denotes the year of fabric manufacture. Chute manufacture date is after, within a year. That "60"-9707 is consistent with a 1960 year of assembly.

In other words, these are definitely two different chutes. Both Hayden's as they were both Pioneer's packed by Cossey on the same date May 21, 1971. Cooper did not take either of Hayden's chutes.

 

The next step is determining which chute Cooper actually took... probably Cossey's but maybe McChord. 

The takeaway,, Cossey rejected chutes found that were not sage green harness/sage green container and a white chute based on an assumption..   that may not have been accurate and one of those chutes found may have been the one Cooper used.

 

I don't recall any time disclosed for initial contact with Cossey. I'll take another look.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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