47 47
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

21 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I explained that, i.e. about the cutting to 84 minutes. Producer (picture below) told me they were overwhelmed by the amount of material and personalities involved. It was NEVER to be a four part series, I don't know who told you that. It was explained to me at the start (I spent two whole days with the crew) that this was a feature film. First, it would be released at a couple of film festivals. Later, to the BBC and HBO. At that time it was a maybe on the HBO thing, though. BELOW: Director John Dower in center. Cameraman left, producer on right. (It's possible you are thinking of the four-part thing the Reca guys did a while back.) 
 

I went back and looked and saw where Bruce had posted on TDBCF a few weeks ago that it was a 4 hour show that is going to be airing on HBO. I guess I just made an assumption that it would be 4 episodes. It's too bad that they cut it down to 84 minutes. But, that's still an hour and a half and I will buy HBO for a month so that I can watch it.

Robert, I really do wish that you could just answer a question without going into the whole working together thing every single time. It's get tiresome, and my guess is that once you start down that road that most people quit reading. I sure do.

Edited by ParrotheadVol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Robert, I don't recall anyone at the Cooper forum saying they don't look at DZ. There is plenty there that won't post here, but I don't recall any of them saying they don't look here.

 

Georger wrote..

Its already happening - Blevins and Lyjack.  Weber will join them as soon as she finds out. Bruce will join. Some scapegoat will be blamed for shutting it all down again!  :rofl:

The VALUE of having it reopened remains to be seen ... if the beginning is any indication, the end will be the same. Just one more social media event with empty promises and a mountain of BS.  

As for me - I will not go where the troublemakers are. Its as simple as that. 
 
 

Parrotheadvol replied


Exactly. There's no need to go there.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Georger wrote..

Its already happening - Blevins and Lyjack.  Weber will join them as soon as she finds out. Bruce will join. Some scapegoat will be blamed for shutting it all down again!  :rofl:

The VALUE of having it reopened remains to be seen ... if the beginning is any indication, the end will be the same. Just one more social media event with empty promises and a mountain of BS.  

As for me - I will not go where the troublemakers are. Its as simple as that. 
 
 

Parrotheadvol replied


Exactly. There's no need to go there.

 

 

I said I wasn't going to, but wound up coming anyway. That's a bit different from saying "I never look at DZ", while at the same time looking at DZ.

 

Edited by ParrotheadVol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I had a posted response here, but I deleted it. 

I guess I just decided that Cooper and the usual stuff that surrounds all that can take a vacation in favor of honoring the late, great Kobe Bryant. 

KobeBryantCrashSite.jpg.989d67d31ec6f51693d7bc8bbaff43c8.jpg

Someone asked me today, "What does it all mean?" (regarding the death of Bryant and his 13-year-old daughter in the helicopter crash in Calabasas, CA.) I couldn't think of anything to say for a moment. I thought about it for a bit and said this:

"Imagine your NFL quarterback brings not one but FIVE Super Bowl championships to your city...and then as soon as he retires from playing...he is killed in a helicopter crash..." (The person who asked me that question was a big NFL fan, not NBA, so I tried to put it in a context he would understand.)

I couldn't think of anything else to say, although Kobe was a positive influence that extended far beyond just his play on the court. 

RIP Kobe. #8, #24. 

EDIT: The latest, and most complete coverage of the tragedy has been updated by the Los Angeles Times. All of the victims are now known, they knew each other as well, and heavy fog was a contributing factor. A witness nearby said he heard the copter struggling in the fog, that it was flying very low, and then he heard a loud explosion and saw a fireball. The copter was still traveling at near full speed when it hit the hillside, though. You can view the article, which the LA Times is offering up today for free... HERE. 

I am not the NTSB of course, but my initial guess is that the helicopter was having problems with one of its two engines, and that it crashed into the hillside because it could not gain additional altitude, and the pilot had no visual reference in the fog. And frankly, the whole thing is just sad beyond belief. According to the LA Times article, most helicopter flights in the general area had been canceled earlier in the day due to this heavy fog. The copter was less than five minutes away from its destination in Thousand Oaks when it crashed. 

EDIT: According to reports from ESPN and ATC net, a site that monitors air traffic control radio and records it for the public, the ATC had held the copter in the same place for about fifteen minutes. ATC also warned the pilot that he was so low that he was only intermittently visible on radar. The pilot then told ATC he was climbing to get above the fog, and was at an altitude of 2,400 feet. Shortly afterward, the copter suddenly dived into the ground for reasons unknown. At least two witnesses have reported that they heard what sounded like engine problems just prior to the crash. 

Reminiscent of the day that Dale Earnhardt died. I was a huge fan of his at the time. I haven't watched NASCAR since and they have never recovered from his death.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cooper offered Tina a cigarette and she took one (at least).. 7 Raleigh's were identified and another one was assumed to be a Raleigh.. all attributed to Cooper.

So, what happened to the cigarette Tina smoked? Was it one of those?

 

Also...

"It is felt Unsub was not an experienced criminal because of his mannerism exhibited after he received the ransom money. Unsub reportedly became somewhat childish, in his actions and comments while counting the money."

How does Cooper count the money if it was randomized?

Georger and Larry Carr got this wrong,

Carr wrote..

"The money was packaged in varying amounts, so one bundle would have $500.00 another $1,000.00, there was no uniformity to it. I have been searching for the evidence report from the lab but have not found it yet, lots of files to go through. When I get it you'll be the second to know."

 

There are many credible reports that the bundles were randomized... not the packets (100 bills). Carr incorrectly assumed the packets were randomized.

 

What does this mean... 

Everybody assumes the 3 packets arrived at TBAR independently but together. That would indicate that they had to be in some container or placed there. This is completely false. The money went to Cooper in packets of 100 and those rubber banded into random sized bundles. We know the packets were not randomized then only the bundles could have been randomized. So, how did the three TBAR packets get removed from their bundle?? It is possible somebody removed them after Cooper got the money or they landed on TBAR as part/all of a single randomized bundle. That expands the means by which the money could have arrived at TBAR. 

It is false to conclude the TBAR packets could have only arrived independently..

 

Brian Ingram, who discovered ransom money in 1980: "We are out here making a campfire, my father and I, and that’s when we discovered the three packets of $20 bills, later to be proven as ransom money of D.B. Cooper."

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of all the possible scenarios, Cooper putting the money there himself is about last on my list of probable ways.  Others that I rate as higher likelihood are:

The packets dropped out of the back of the plane

The packets are money he tried to give to one of the stews

It's money he gave someone else along the way and they got rid of it later, maybe even Tina

A few packets broke off from the main bunch and ended up on Tina Bar, while a whole bunch of other money floated somewhere else.

None of the above are theories that I came up with, some pre-date all  of us joining the case, some are Flyjack's.

There are many scenarios.  The fact that 97% of the bills are unaccounted for makes the Tina Bar money interesting, but in my mind not a major factor in the case.  It has caused a lot of confusion, and gets a lot of attention.  It is the only link we have to Cooper after he jumped, so I can see why it is an important draw for people.  

As we know, if you have a flight path or a suspect and need to fit a square peg into a round hole, then the Tina Bar money can be used to inject some doubt.

 

Edited by CooperNWO305

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Of all the possible scenarios, Cooper putting the money there himself is about last on my list of probable ways.  Others that I rate as higher likelihood are:

The packets dropped out of the back of the plane

The packets are money he tried to give to one of the stews

It's money he gave someone else along the way and they got rid of it later, maybe even Tina

A few packets broke off from the main bunch and ended up on Tina Bar, while a whole bunch of other money floated somewhere else.

None of the above are theories that I came up with, some pre-date all  of us joining the case, some are Flyjack's.

There are many scenarios.  The fact that 97% of the bills are unaccounted for makes the Tina Bar money interesting, but in my mind not a major factor in the case.  It has caused a lot of confusion, and gets a lot of attention.  It is the only link we have to Cooper after he jumped, so I can see why it is an important draw for people.  

As we know, if you have a flight path or a suspect and need to fit a square peg into a round hole, then the Tina Bar money can be used to inject some doubt.

 

I still prefer the dredge theory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Of all the possible scenarios, Cooper putting the money there himself is about last on my list of probable ways.  Others that I rate as higher likelihood are:

The packets dropped out of the back of the plane

The packets are money he tried to give to one of the stews

It's money he gave someone else along the way and they got rid of it later, maybe even Tina

A few packets broke off from the main bunch and ended up on Tina Bar, while a whole bunch of other money floated somewhere else.

None of the above are theories that I came up with, some pre-date all  of us joining the case, some are Flyjack's.

There are many scenarios.  The fact that 97% of the bills are unaccounted for makes the Tina Bar money interesting, but in my mind not a major factor in the case.  It has caused a lot of confusion, and gets a lot of attention.  It is the only link we have to Cooper after he jumped, so I can see why it is an important draw for people.  

As we know, if you have a flight path or a suspect and need to fit a square peg into a round hole, then the Tina Bar money can be used to inject some doubt.

 

One other thing I find crucial...

The missing bills... one packet was missing 20 bills. Why only one packet? the top one of a single bundle?

Were they removed by a person or were they eroded away and just not accounted for??

One thing is for sure, the rubber bands were not "intact", there were fragments attached but based on the erosion of the packets and missing bills no way the rubber bands were "intact".

 

I am not a fan of the suction dredge, I just can't see the money going through and ending up in that condition.. clamshell dredge is possible.

 

The point I was making was the packets (100 bills each) went to Cooper in randomized bundles.

How did TBAR packets get separated from their bundle but remain together? Either they were separated by a person prior or they landed as a single bundle and fell apart via erosion.

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cooper offered the drink tip money AFTER the ransom was on board and about 4 hours after he bought the drink...

After asking for some ransom money Tina said she handed it back claiming the no gratuity policy.. and she used the drink tip offer as an example.

Problem,, Cooper hadn't offered the drink tip yet, that was later. Also, why did Cooper offer the stews drink tip money after he got the ransom and after Tina claimed the "no gratuity" policy to return some ransom packets.. Why would Cooper offer all the stews the drink tip money ($18) when he has the $200 k ransom and has already been told by Tina that they don't accept gratuities.

IMO, the drink tip story is bogus or deceptive.

 

stewtipx.jpeg.17b1ac503767341afafc63c0d4245f37.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

I thought that he offered tip money from the first drink he ordered. I know that has been stated in the past, or I read it somewhere but I can't remember. Maybe in 'Skyjack'? 

He offered the tip money from the drink change he had 4 hours earlier... after receiving ransom money and after Tina claiming to return it due to a no gratuity policy.

Quote Skyjack...

"He fishes around the pockets of his pants for the $19 he received from Flo nearly four hours ago, on the tarmac in Portland, for the bourbon and Seven he ordered and spilled. He offers the change.

Flo and Alice shake their heads.

“Sorry.”

“No tips.”

 

He received the drink early in the flight and paid without offering a tip.

After he had the ransom money the claim was that he offered tip money from his pocket...

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Timeline, 

 
Cooper orders drink from Flo while plane on Tarmac in Portland.
 
Pays with $20, does NOT give tip when he gets change.
 
 
Much Later,
 
Tina brings money bag onboard plane, while Cooper inspecting it Tina asks for some money, takes it then (claims) she returns it. She claims it is against company policy to accept gratuities citing Cooper offering all the stews tip money from his pocket.
 
Tina goes to get the chutes,
 
Flo lifts the money bag to feel the weight.
 
Cooper offers the stews drink tip money from his pocket. (about 4 hours after getting change from drink)
 
As Flo and Alice are leaving, Cooper offers them packets of ransom money. (Calame and Rhodes..)
 
At some point Flo went back into the plane for her purse.
 
-----------------
 
 
Calame and Rhodes

offered pack of money to each stew as they were getting off the plane

at 14:30


 
 
 
Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Quote Skyjack...

"He fishes around the pockets of his pants for the $19 he received from Flo nearly four hours ago, on the tarmac in Portland, for the bourbon and Seven he ordered and spilled. He offers the change.

 

 

I stand corrected. My memory is failing me in my old age.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

I stand corrected. My memory is failing me in my old age.

Not age, there is seriously too much information.. I have thousands of documents on my computer. I am forgetting the info I already have, spent an hour looking for a Northwest 727 seat chart online and I already had it..

northwest-orient-727-and-b737-sticker-seating-charts.jpg.295acbc5706332a77d633e530be45d24.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, dudeman17 said:

Not sure why they would cite a 'no tip policy' as a reason not to accept some of the ransom money. To accept and keep some would be a criminal offense. They could have accepted it and returned it to the FBI (and hoped for a bit of a reward).

yup, some other hijackers gave/paid ransom money to crew or passengers, they handed back to authorities...

A hijacker paying off crew is a brilliant idea... they would be compromised witnesses.

 

The tip story and timeline just doesn't ring true.. somebody is being deceptive, it may one or more of the stews or the FBI holding back info.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Most of the people who currently post to this thread, (and some who just lurk) have some extensive...and GOOD information/files...on the Cooper case. And I have a compromise proposal for you. 

Over at the Quora site Everything D.B. Cooper, each time a post is made, it goes out automatically by email to over 1,700 people who voluntarily signed up for the feed. I often share such posts with my personal followers, (about another 500 people)...and sometimes Quora staff, or OTHER Quora members will share your post as well. When a Quora staff member shares, your post will go out to an additional 1,000-10,000 OTHER Quora members. 

In other words, you will reach a LOT of people in a very short time. 

The sticky in all of this is that the Quora program more or less is based on people establishing TRUE identities to ask questions, comment, or answer questions there. And for some of you this seems to be a problem. 

However, although the majority of Quora users DO establish their true identity, I'm sure some of them use pseudonyms here and there. But the ones who do...if Quora members suspect that is what you are doing, they will often downvote your content and it will mysteriously disappear from sight for everyone except YOU. Before you hack on this idea too much, you should know that some really famous people belong to Quora, or have posted there in the past. Famous sports figures, CEOs of corporations, scientists, airline pilots, or people who work for NASA like Robert Frost, who is a flight controller there, and many others. 

Those folks get lots of answer requests, which is expected. Quora prides itself on being a community where anonymity is frowned upon, because other users want to know what gives YOU the right (or the expertise) to answer THIS question or THAT question. Their main concept is transparency. 

I have been racking my brain for a compromise that will allow people in the Cooper case who wish to remain anonymous the chance to become Contributors to the Everything D.B. Cooper site...without having their content just voted out of existence. I haven't come up with a comprehensive plan yet, but I am working on it. If we figure out a way you can do this, you can expect questions regarding the Cooper case to come into your inbox via other Quora members. You will rack up the traffic for sure. You will find out things. You will acquire informational sources, as well as REsources. 

None of this benefits me personally. There are Quora Spaces on many subjects, and most of them have far more followers than the EDBC site. However...if you have a book out there for example, you will get far more sales than you are getting now. If you are just investigating Cooper, your information base will grow. If you have a question that demands an expert, you will get your question answered BY an expert. And this is where Quora really shines. It gives you access to people who might not ordinarily answer a question you need answered. 

My current views to questions and answers at Quora is approaching 2.5 million in less than three years (non-Cooper), and I have expanded my informational base on the Cooper case a great deal more than it was before I joined Quora. Maybe we can work something out. 
QuoraTitlePage.jpg.acd6eec33dc1858bff90271b800d383d.jpg

 

 

Robert: We all get the point about Quora.  It has been discussed ad nauseam. When you post about Quora, it takes focus away from your other content.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is why this case is so difficult...

FBI docs, witnesses.... Cooper dictated the following request "two back parachutes and two front parachutes.." 

coopdemand.jpeg.ec3e0be855334ddb736289a64ee6b3c4.jpeg

 

This can't be true.. Cooper asked for two chutes then changed it to four. That note can't be accurate.

 

changes2to4chutes.jpg.ea0653b18f4df468126a2d50611be7a7.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the Palmer report..

"The upper layer consisted of six inches to eight inches of reworked beach sand and is the sand which contained the fragments and bundles of the recovered money. This sand also contained soda pop cans and other debris, which were not severely damaged or rusted. The post dredging sand contained older soda pop cans, rusted nails and spikes, and other rusted artifacts, which were in a much more deteriorated condition."

 

The money was in the upper 6-8 inch sand layer which contained other debris that was not severely damaged or rusted..

That indicates the money was deposited more recently.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

This can't be true.. Cooper asked for two chutes then changed it to four. That note can't be accurate.

He may have just been clarifying his demand, not changing it. If he at first said 'gimme two chutes', he may have had in mind two complete rigs. In those days the mains and reserves were separate items. You'd put on the backpack main, then attach the front-mount reserve. So his later demand for two backs and two fronts may have just been to make sure he got two complete rigs.

That they gave him those bailout rigs instead of mains, that and some other things are puzzling to me. But that'll have to be a different post...

Edited by dudeman17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The note dictated by Schaffner was the first demand communication = 4 chutes.

If, as the FBI noted and he changed his demand from 2 chutes to 4 then that initial note is incorrect. 

Flo was recalling the text in the note,,

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Not to pooh-pooh this line of thought, but it really doesn't matter if Cooper asked for two, four, or sixteen chutes. What matters is what happened to the one he actually jumped with?

Where is it now? 

Personally, I think it's sitting somewhere at the FBI building in downtown Seattle. 

The number of chutes wasn't the point..

It is the frustration of dealing with conflicts and inconsistencies within the FBI files..

 

If Flo's recall of the parachute demand in the note isn't correct,, what else is not correct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Well you know the notes and the sequences better than I do, I'm just saying that his references to "two" rigs comprising of "four" chutes may not be as inconsistent as they seem.

Agreed.  Two chutes in his mind may very well have meant four actual parachutes/two full rigs.  If this is the case, then it could be that he never thought of taking a hostage with him on the jump, and it simply could have been because he wanted two sets of chutes, thinking that the FBI would not have sabotaged all four.

For a dummy chute to have shown up in the group still perplexes me.  Apparently the dummy was stored near the regular chutes, but to me that is like storing cyanide in on the same shelf as your aspirin.  It just does not make sense.

I figure he thought the government would try to sabotage his chute, so he needed to do something to lower the risk.  This could be why he asked for four chutes, or maybe he really did want them to think he was taking a hostage.  If this is the case, then it indicates some serious pre-planning and thinking out possible scenarios.

Through some research I learned that some aircrews would only have jumped with a reserve.  They would have had to grab it quickly, hook it on, and jump.  The reserves were smaller and took up less space.  That way they could fly wearing a harness, and in the remote chance that they had to jump, they would grab the reserve.  A low altitude jump (plane about to crash) would not have allowed time for two chutes.  If the main failed, a crewman would have hit the ground before he had time to deploy his reserve, hence just jumping with one.

I'm trying to remember here.  He left a good back chute on the plane, and a good reserve that he opened.  Which means he jumped with a good main, and a bad reserve. Right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

47 47