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36 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

The first letter of the serial number matches the Federal Reserve letter on the left side of the bill, so changing that would not be the number one choice.  I considered that he may have wanted to change the last letter, but like you said there were very few that ended in C.  

yes, the last letter, there are also 4 additional numbers printed on the bill that match the first letter, Federal Reserve Bank issuer, for example L = 12 = San Francisco.

If Cooper were to alter the bills, it would be a very good and efficient strategy to just erase and change the last letter to a C.. (there are only about 14 - 1950C bills that end in C)

Edited by FLYJACK

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I have a question about how the FBI handles evidence. For instance, the Amboy chute was supposedly discounted as being Cooper's, yet the FBI still holds on to it. It took Hayden some wrangling to get his other chute back, but Flyjack shows evidence that that was not the one left on the plane, and if so I'm guessing the FBI still has that one (did Cossey ever get the cut-up reserve back?).

So how is it that anyone has Cooper 20's? How did any of the Tina Bar money end up back in the public's hands?

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33 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

I have a question about how the FBI handles evidence. For instance, the Amboy chute was supposedly discounted as being Cooper's, yet the FBI still holds on to it. It took Hayden some wrangling to get his other chute back, but Flyjack shows evidence that that was not the one left on the plane, and if so I'm guessing the FBI still has that one (did Cossey ever get the cut-up reserve back?).

So how is it that anyone has Cooper 20's? How did any of the Tina Bar money end up back in the public's hands?

Cossey claimed he got back one of the back chutes,,  

Did he actually get one back??  If so, was it a back chute?

 

I thought the two front chutes were technically Issaquah Skysports chutes..

 

Maybe,,, If both Hayden and Cossey sent in 2 back chutes each and one from each was sent to the plane, then each could have got back the one (back chute) they sent in that didn't go to the plane. 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Here we go...

Concluding that Cooper could not be 5' 8" is not based on facts but on layers of subjective assumptions/estimates.

 

Al Lee described Tina as 5' 6".. (did she have her shoes on or not??)

alleetina5ft6.jpeg.1cbcc19f12ea63aa4c3c8ca7614babe7.jpeg

 

 

Tina Mucklow is noted as being "approximately 5' 8" (by FBI agent, is that in shoes or not?), "she observed the hijacker in a seated position except for the brief period when he went to the lavatory"...

tinacoopseatedmost.jpeg.389082008a7c623a99d0cc9f28db4027.jpeg 

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Some of the Tina Bar bills were finally returned to the finder....Brian Ingram. He put them up for auction after he received them and made quite a bit of money. I don't know how much, but I think it was a hefty five figures. 

My question was about the money. I mentioned the chutes as example of how the FBI keeps everything it considers to be evidence. It seemed odd that they would give back the money.

Normally when someone finds a bunch of cash and turns it in to the authorities, if they can't find the rightful owner they give it back to the finder. But this wasn't an ordinary cash find, it was evidence in the case.

You say they gave some of it back, but not all? How much did they give back vs what they kept?

I dunno, maybe they figured they'd give him back enough to sell and get the value of his find, as opposed to give him money out of their budget.

??

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The tie particle distribution pattern has been completely overlooked..

Like blood spatter patterns it tells us something about how the particles were deposited on the tie.

Cooper tie under UV above compared to a vintage era tie. The vintage tie particle pattern is completely random. Cooper's tie has many horizontal lines (as worn) of dense particle distributions.

How do you get those? Looks like about 6 lines..

An edged object is repeatedly contacting the tie in a sideways motion. I can't imagine how that happens while wearing the tie. There are similar marks on the rear piece of the tie.

It seems unlikely that a particle rich object was repeatedly wiped across the tie at different heights while being worn, unless the object was heavy and repeatedly carried with both arms beneath and a sharp horizontal edge resting on the tie. However, some of the lines seem to be too low.

 

It looks like the particles were deposited while the tie was not being worn. 

 

What are the possibilities..

The tie was used to wipe the particle rich object(s).

The particles were deposited during storage.

 

Expand the image, particle lines clearly visible..

cooptieuvcomp.jpeg.ac7ea1aba5498ee60400c2f212140f06.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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I'm not going to go as far as calling the tie a red herring, but it is close.  People use the tie to claim Cooper worked at Boeing, or Tektronix, or now the newer one is RMI Titanium in Ohio.

The tie was dropped on the plane in 1971, but the FBI did not even make this public until sometime in the 2000's.  There is no telling how much this tie was contaminated through the years.

I believe the tie was the same tie that Cooper came on the plane with.  Was it his tie, a friend's, or from a second hand shop, or did he take it from a manager at his shop?  Hard to say.

Where did all the particles come from?  Again hard to say, but chances are this was a tie worn by a front line manager versus a bank type manager.  The particles indicate some sort of manufacturing environment versus say a teacher, lawyer, banker, etc.

There is a lot of misleading information about the titanium out there in Cooperland.

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Robert, things have been moving along just fine here. It's all been Cooper discussion. Not everyone agrees, such as is the case between Flyjack and myself on the height issue. But that's ok, it's still Cooper discussion and not personal.

So why then, do you feel the need to make two lengthy posts concerning the Cooper forum and other members of Coopertown? You need to just let it go.  

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Could have been an accident, could have been on purpose.  I think he did it on purpose.  He was brazen about a number of things, so why not the tie? That was his Ace of Spades calling card.  I wonder if he did leave a calling card, did he also take a souvenir (something besides the $200k)?  I've even thought that he may have taken pictures.

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A number of researchers believe we can narrow down the exact location of where the tie was (Where Cooper worked).  This seems a little optimistic.  Regardless, one of the fallacies floating around is that titanium could only be found at a few companies (Oregon, Ohio, etc.).  Another is that the largest producers were these companies.  Another is that only commercially pure titanium could be found at these companies.  All false.  The largest producer of titanium in the US was not RMI, it was Titanium Metals, headquartered in NY, then moved to NJ.  Also, they produced commercially pure titanium. 

These articles are snips from 1968 and 1969.

Titanium was not as rare as we are led to believe, and commercially pure titanium was not as rare either.  

Cooperland has taken the Citizen Sleuth's titanium research as gospel.

Titanium screen shots.PNG

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1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

A number of researchers believe we can narrow down the exact location of where the tie was (Where Cooper worked).  This seems a little optimistic.  Regardless, one of the fallacies floating around is that titanium could only be found at a few companies (Oregon, Ohio, etc.).  Another is that the largest producers were these companies.  Another is that only commercially pure titanium could be found at these companies.  All false.  The largest producer of titanium in the US was not RMI, it was Titanium Metals, headquartered in NY, then moved to NJ.  Also, they produced commercially pure titanium. 

These articles are snips from 1968 and 1969.

Titanium was not as rare as we are led to believe, and commercially pure titanium was not as rare either.  

Cooperland has taken the Citizen Sleuth's titanium research as gospel.

Titanium screen shots.PNG

and the tie was manufactured around 1965.. the particles had lots of time and environments to accumulate.

Hahneman's neighbour said that Hahneman told him he worked for Philco/Bendix installing rocket systems on helicopters. This would have been in the mid/late 1960's. Hahnemen moved all over the world working on Military/Gov contracts..

Edited by FLYJACK

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9 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

One thing this exec told me was that is a flat-out lie when Geestman claimed that he would work a few weeks at a time and then take off a few weeks. No one did that at Foss I was told. This was Geestman's explanation on where he was around Thanksgiving 1971.

 

Was this exec at Foss at the same time Bernie was and did he know Bernie? You probably spoke to this guy in what 2010, give or take? That's almost 40 years after the fact. While it may not have been common for someone to work the schedule that Bernie claimed to have worked, it's entirely possible that there was some reason that Bernie could have and did work that schedule. I think it's a stretch to call this a lie based on the word of one exec 40 years later. To substantiate this as being a lie, you would need something more than just this general statement. Employment records, time card records? You know, proof. I'm betting that the exec that told you this had no direct knowledge of Bernie's employment or schedule.

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A tug mechanic wearing a tie,,,, I don't see it.. and there would be particles from that environment which aren't present on the tie, steel. oil, grease. The tie particles aren't consistent with a mechanic's environment.

Tugs with CP Ti..  maybe. Those specific tugs?

CP Titanium has many grades, I asked Tom Kaye which grade and he didn't know...

 

The problem with the tie particles is there are so many particles you can make almost any environment fit some of them.. and the particles had 6 years to accumulate.

The tie has become a Rorschach..

 

They are a good match for..

Electronics.. 

Dentistry..

Fireworks.. hand held sparklers for example.

 

What is important is what isn't on the tie,,,, like steel.

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

A tug mechanic wearing a tie,,,, I don't see it.. and there would be particles from that environment which aren't present on the tie, steel. oil, grease. The tie particles aren't consistent with a mechanic's environment.

Tugs with CP Ti..  maybe. Those specific tugs?

CP Titanium has many grades, I asked Tom Kaye which grade and he didn't know...

 

The problem with the tie particles is there are so many particles you can make almost any environment fit some of them.. and the particles had 6 years to accumulate.

The tie has become a Rorschach..

 

They are a good match for..

Electronics.. 

Dentistry..

Fireworks.. hand held sparklers for example.

 

What is important is what isn't on the tie,,,, like steel.

 

 

Steel is an alloy. Was there steel on the tie? Maybe. What elements are in steel? Were any of those found on the tie?

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2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Steel is an alloy. Was there steel on the tie? Maybe. What elements are in steel? Were any of those found on the tie?

No steel found.

There was a fragment of Stainless Steel mechanically mashed  into a Titanium piece.

Edited by FLYJACK

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7 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

For Future Note: *Semi-Important* :D

In the event that Dropzone ever closes this thread again...

An alternate site has been prepared. There are no members, although there is an administrator. 

Most likely, this site will never have to be used, as I see no problems with DZ right now. 

But just in case, you should make a shortcut to it on your desktop if you wish to continue any discussions on Cooper (if DZ thread locks, goes down, etc). Site has full features available. (Public posting of images, links, etc.)

That website is HERE. If you decide to register in advance, and you are a known person in Cooperland...the only thing asked is you register under the same username you commonly use in Cooper-related discussions. In other words, if you say you are Flyjack, you should BE Flyjack and not someone else attempting to imitate his online identity. Other than that, anyone is welcome and we will not restrict registration to anyone, including Georger, Smith, and the Usual Suspects. B)  

There is no need for you to register now. Dropzone is doing just fine, as I said. But it's good to have a backup. That's the only reason I established the site, not to draw people from DZ. We are better off here than anywhere else...as long as it still exists. Below is a picture of the site. Pretty typical stuff. I have unlocked the Guest function, but there are no real posts there anyway. 
HeaderABForum.jpg.d20b83826675746ff9d78c8eccf82013.jpg

 

8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I took this job for a while once...in Kent, WA. Back in the late 1980's. A machine shop called Valley Tool Company. Small shop. They did just about any small-scale fabrication you wanted. I did not work in the shop itself, but a now-gone brick building next door. MY job was to assess and install new support beams to this building. It was a very old freezer locker place, and let me tell you that this work was DANGEROUS. 

My work partner and I are jacking up this 40-ton roof (that we thought might collapse on us any time of the day) and sticking up support beams...and then lowering the roof back down an inch or two ONTO the beams. The outside walls were made of brick. 

So...one day we have this roof about two inches off its brick wall. I look up and see daylight coming through. I look back five minutes later and it seemed like the gap had gotten larger. Ten minutes later...we got the hell out of there. The owner came with a camera and tripod. The wall was beginning to lean OUTWARD from the side of the building. 

Five minutes later, the entire wall collapsed into a huge noisy pile of old bricks and dust. The rest of the building held. Mr Cheapo Owner, who went against my advice that the building was impossible to restore in its present state anyway...just shook his head. 

ValleyToolKentWA.jpg.a2312aaa763ef92ba2cda27fd4e6a066.jpg

Yes...there is a point to this story. Next door at the machine shop, one of my OTHER jobs was hauling the metal chip (stored in five gallon buckets) to the recycling center for money. They had titanium alloys going, titanium in pure form, high speed steel, you name it. Drilling, grinding, shaping, stamping, etc. This crap was literally everywhere in the shop, and all over peoples' clothing, their hands, their machine tools, just everywhere. Even on your shoes. I had to leave my clothes in the garage when I came home from work or the girlfriend complained about the metal dust and chip. 

The lesson here is:  There is really no way to associate a particular job to that tie. Maybe a visitor wore a tie and wiped his hands on it. Maybe it came from the Goodwill Store. Maybe, maybe and more maybes. Since you can't establish a chain of evidence on the tie, it is pretty useless. I guess if you found out who Cooper was, you might be able to establish some relationship between the tie particles and Cooper, but as I said...it could have easily just been a loan or someone paid a quarter for it at the Salvation Army. There is no way to tell. 

Added Note: The owner of the company wore a tie, and sometimes did actual shop work as well. I can tell you he wasn't Cooper, especially with that flaming red hair going. (*laughs*) He wore a tie clip and kind of stood back a couple of inches extra when he worked. 

I got in trouble the first time I made the recycling run though. I hauled three big buckets of high speed steel chip and cashed them in as if they were 'regular' steel for a few bucks. Found out they were worth a lot more. Oops. Surprised he didn't fire me right there. ^.^ As it turned out, we ended up gutting the building, removing the old refrigerant piping (after having the ammonia in the system drained out professionally) and he just sold the lot that was left behind. When I left the job, the owner gave me an old Datsun truck as a sort of bonus since I had worked cheap for him for quite a while. It looked just like the one shown below. Fun little truck, but about the most uncomfortable Datsun/Nissan I ever owned. You felt every bump in the road. I didn't keep it too long. 
1971DatsunTruck.jpg.9c3a3cd416067aaa9fd427ab61375ce2.jpg

Very good points about the scrap metal. Good story. 
 

Update on the train. They are fun to look at and ride, but not so good when the house you’re sleeping at is next to a rail yard. 

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Lynn wrote..

"LOL There's a Hahnemann train? Sorry, his MO makes no sense in the later hijacking if he was Cooper. He changed everything Cooper did right; it's irrelevant whether he made the jump, lots of people did similar jumps. He had contact with the crew, was violent and threatening, let the passengers know he was jacking the plane - just doesn't make sense. He might have the skills, motivation, and looks to be Cooper, but why would he change not only an MO that worked, but his entire personality? No sale"

 

This is riddled with assumptions and misinformation... and Lynn keeps repeating them from a position of ignorance.. 

This thinking is so problematic and ubiquitous, people drawing false conclusions from positions of ignorance or bias. Conclusions are your own but get the facts right.

 

He changed everything Cooper did... There were some differences but those were caused by external influences. Overall, Hahneman's hijacking was very similar to Cooper's, far more similar than any other hijacking. Is it smart to repeat a successful hijacking exactly the same when authorities already had the game plan.. and had ramped up airline security?

Lots of people did similar jumps..  huh what.. How many jumped out the rear stairs of a 727 with a ransom at night over a rural jungle/forest? How many were late 40's, no accent, no marks or tattoos, smoked, latin, swarthy, brown eyes, about 5' 10", thin build and about 170 lbs, dark curly/marceled wavy hair, brown shoes, collared white shirt, thin dark tie, dark suit, overcoat and dark sunglasses with a briefcase bomb?? or were ex military? Had substantial aviation knowledge? left an open chute behind? left a tie behind? asked for military chutes? demanded to fly to Mex? requested curtain and shades drawn? sat in rear and used interphone? demanded notes returned? had pills for the crew? etc... etc...

Those describe BOTH Cooper and Hahneman...

Are YOU freakin kidding me,,,,  nodody should accept Hahneman as Cooper but to reject is irrational.

 

He had contact with the crew.. He initially set up at the rear of the plane and communicated via interphone, he had personal contact with the crew when the FBI faked a mechanical issue and he knew they were messing with him. They forced him to transfer planes. He used the crew as a shield from snipers to transfer planes. Cooper was never put in such a situation.

He was violent and threatening. The FBI documents do not convey this like the media reports, he engaged in casual talk. He allowed a stew suffering stress to leave. Unlike Cooper, all passengers knew he was hijacking the plane and some were aggressive toward him. He also had a legal drug which had an ingredient later withdrawn for inducing phycological side effects. Since all passengers were aware of Hahneman they would be prone to describe the event as traumatic. Cooper's passengers were oblivious to the hijacking.

He let the passengers know he was jacking the plane. No, he didn't - the crew just announced it. The crew asked Cooper if they should inform the passengers. This was not demanded by Cooper or Hahneman.

Why would he change an MO that worked. BECAUSE IT WORKED.. The MO was actually very similar, the changes were induced by the change in environment and circumstances. Since Cooper, airport security had been ramped up with screening and more air marshals. He had a briefcase bomb but it was never confirmed to be real. IMO, he had no bomb in there in case it was searched BECAUSE OF COOPER..  He needed a briefcase bomb threat and a gun.

He changed his entire personality. They were messing with him from the start. He was given the wrong denominations which had to be replaced and then they faked a mechanical issue with the plane. Cooper was never messed with, he was fully accommodated.

Cooper's environment and circumstances were completely different.

 

A US official in Honduras at the time stated that Hahneman had planned his hijacking for a year,, that predates Cooper and indicates he was not a copycat as we have been told for years. Hahneman was falsely branded a Cooper copycat... and virtually no info on him was made public so nobody would look into him. It worked until now.

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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On 1/16/2020 at 8:03 AM, CooperNWO305 said:

A number of researchers believe we can narrow down the exact location of where the tie was (Where Cooper worked).  This seems a little optimistic.  Regardless, one of the fallacies floating around is that titanium could only be found at a few companies (Oregon, Ohio, etc.).  Another is that the largest producers were these companies.  Another is that only commercially pure titanium could be found at these companies.  All false.  The largest producer of titanium in the US was not RMI, it was Titanium Metals, headquartered in NY, then moved to NJ.  Also, they produced commercially pure titanium. 

These articles are snips from 1968 and 1969.

Titanium was not as rare as we are led to believe, and commercially pure titanium was not as rare either.  

Cooperland has taken the Citizen Sleuth's titanium research as gospel.

Titanium screen shots.PNG

The unusual salt found on the tie is consistent with the hunter process of manufacturing cp ti. RMI was the only company in the world still using this process. That’s why RMI is suspect as the source for the cp ti. 

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23 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Side Note: They are falling to pieces over at Shutter's DB Cooper Forum today. EU says he's bailing because he's tired of Georger. Shutter is considering closing down the site completely this year. 

Ask me if I care about either of them, or the site itself. Not a chance.

But yet here you are talking about it, like you always do. You say you don't care, but the opposite is obvious.

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54 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

The unusual salt found on the tie is consistent with the hunter process of manufacturing cp ti. RMI was the only company in the world still using this process. That’s why RMI is suspect as the source for the cp ti. 

True, however the RMI Ti sponge was not found on the tie, the RMI "salt" was a close match but wasn't unique to RMI...  The RMI connection is a theory in progress.

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2 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

The unusual salt found on the tie is consistent with the hunter process of manufacturing cp ti. RMI was the only company in the world still using this process. That’s why RMI is suspect as the source for the cp ti. 

How do we know for certain that RMI was the only company in the world using this process? When did the other companies stop? Did RMI state they were the only ones or did someone call all the other companies? I’ve heard this before, and I don’t doubt the honesty of the people, I’d just be curious to see some solid proof. It just seems too easy that they’ve narrowed down where the titanium came from. 

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