47 47
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

None of the above matters if Tina was right about Coopers height. It's that simple. She stood beside him and put his height as 4 or 5 inches taller than hers. If she was right about that, then Kenny Christiansen cannot be DB Cooper, no matter how much other circumstantial "evidence" is found or manufactured. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ParrotheadVol said:

None of the above matters if Tina was right about Coopers height. It's that simple. She stood beside him and put his height as 4 or 5 inches taller than hers. If she was right about that, then Kenny Christiansen cannot be DB Cooper, no matter how much other circumstantial "evidence" is found or manufactured. 

This is completely incorrect.. and disappointing.

"If" Tina was correct... is big qualifier but she didn't claim Cooper was 6' - 6' 1".

Al Lee described TINA as 5' 6". She claims 5' 8". Do we know Tina's actual height? in shoes? Let's go with 5' 8".

Tina claimed Cooper was 5' 10" - 6' ... not 4 - 5 inches taller than herself. 2 - 4 inches if 5' 8".

Cooper height estimates ranged from 5' 9" to 6' 1".. Initial FBI description was from 5' 9". Most about 5' 10".

Cooper was sitting most of the time when Tina was next to him.The FBI investigated people below 5' 10". 

Witness height descriptions are notoriously vague, for the Hahneman hijacking the witness height descriptions ranged from 5' 8" to 6'... most about 5' 10". I have a military document showing 5' 9", in shoes that is about 5' 10".

 

Witness height descriptions are estimates.. not hard facts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I was wrong about the actual height that Tina said. My bad. 

But, the point is still the same, if she was correct about his height, then Kenny is out. End of story. If Tina is 5'8", and Kenny is 5'8", and she stands beside Cooper and realizes that this guy is a few inches taller than her (which isn't hard to do - let's not turn that into rocket science), then it can't be Kenny or anyone else that comes in at 5'8". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Okay, I was wrong about the actual height that Tina said. My bad. 

But, the point is still the same, if she was correct about his height, then Kenny is out. End of story. If Tina is 5'8", and Kenny is 5'8", and she stands beside Cooper and realizes that this guy is a few inches taller than her (which isn't hard to do - let's not turn that into rocket science), then it can't be Kenny or anyone else that comes in at 5'8". 

Still wrong, the FBI didn't take the witness height estimates as hard facts... neither should you. Many witnesses had Cooper under 5' 10".

The FBI investigated people under 5' 10"... what do you know that they don't. 

A good comparison is Hahneman, hijacking witnesses had him from 5' 8" - 6'.. it is an estimate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were 3 witnesses that knew what was going on. 3 witnesses that knew that they would be called on to give a description of the hijacker. None of the passengers had any idea what was going on and probably never saw him stand up. So, none of their guesses on height should be considered and I highly doubt they were. Blevins likes to weigh the passengers descriptions equally to those of the stews. You're smarter than that. If I stand next to someone who is a couple of inches shorter or taller than me, that is pretty damn easy to discern. 

 

The description is what it is. That doesn't mean that the FBI cannot look outside those parameters if they feel the need to.

Edited by ParrotheadVol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The FBI had some info that made them not consider KC to be a prime suspect.  https://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/FBI-rejects-latest-D-B-Cooper-suspect-1253715.php

I got lost in all the back and forth here. How tall was Kenny?

My thoughts on height are that yes, it can be subjective.  If a friend of mine called me up and asked me how tall they are, I would probably only be able to get in a range or heights, or I would say, you're around my height, etc. 

I think if DB Cooper was real tall, say 6 feet or above, or real short, maybe 5'8 or so or less, then that would be a qualifier/disqualifier.  However, if he was in that range of just "average" then there is not a lot to go on.  From my understanding of reading a lot of the 302's, he was not short, he was not tall.  He was just average.  Average at that time was probably around 5' 10" 

If DB Cooper was walking around, would people look at him and say, "he's tall" or would they say "he's short" or would they not say anything at all? There are a few things about Cooper that really seemed to stand out to people:  his hair, his age, his demeanor, and I believe his dark brown eyes.  

Edited by CooperNWO305

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

There were 3 witnesses that knew what was going on. 3 witnesses that knew that they would be called on to give a description of the hijacker. None of the passengers had any idea what was going on and probably never saw him stand up. So, none of their guesses on height should be considered and I highly doubt they were. Blevins likes to weigh the passengers descriptions equally to those of the stews. You're smarter than that. If I stand next to someone who is a couple of inches shorter or taller than me, that is pretty damn easy to discern. 

 

The description is what it is. That doesn't mean that the FBI cannot look outside those parameters if they feel the need to.

Right, so the FBI did not eliminate suspects solely based on height unless well below 5' 10", it is/was a combination of factors.

but you can.

Is KC 5' 8" exactly or roughly, how tall is he in shoes? still 5' 8" or taller?

How long did Tina stand next to Cooper also standing? How close?

How tall is Tina, she claims 5' 8", is that exactly or roughly, is she correct? Was she in shoes, if so what type? Flo was told to remove her shoes.

Was Al Lee incorrect when he described Tina as 5' 6" or was that estimate wrong?

 

There are too many variables to eliminate somebody 5' 8", the FBI didn't do it based on that criteria alone.

It is a factor, but not a single elimination factor.

 

Studies have shown that witness height recall is very poor. Nobody measured Cooper's height.

I am not defending KC, I am defending reason.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One way to measure public interest in the case is to track views of the DB Cooper entry on Wikipedia.  The biggest days were around 2016 when the FBI "closed" the case, and Case Closed came out.  Since then there is a spike on the anniversary, or on days that a DB Cooper documentary is shown or re-shown (Case Closed, Expedition Unknown, etc.).  But none of these comes close to the visits in 2016.

So, even if there is a new show that comes out, or a movie, it will likely end up with just a small spike in visits.  Interest will probably peak around the 50th anniversary, but it will take something real big to get sustained interest.  One big reason is the age of those interested (usually over 35 or even older).  Another issue is the 24 hour news cycle and access to so many other things.  Frankly, we'd be better off if this was the 1980's and there was no internet or Netflix to take people's time.

To get interest to really increase, it will take the FBI re-opening the case or someone finding a $20.

It sounds like some of the Cooper folks are trying to get more publicity for the case, but I predict that any publicity will be brief, like with Reca.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Really? No one is 'manufacturing' evidence around here. I can tell you that. 

Here is the reality of things Parrot: We're the only folks who ever turned over a full report on a suspect, with pictures, real names, etc and made it public. We're also the only ones people took seriously and decided to approach us for the first-ever, full-length feature film on the hijacking. I figure whether we are right about KC or not, it doesn't matter. The movie will definitely drive the truth one way or another out of the woodwork. That was my intention the whole time. 

 

Robert, I have to be honest here. Those were a couple of pretty long posts and I'd be lying if I said I did anything more that just scan through them. You've taken Jo Weber's place for long posts that most people probably don't read.

But I will argue a couple of points here: Yes, there has been manufactured evidence in the KC story. There have been lies. The house purchased for cash thing was certainly a lie. That certainly qualifies as "manufactured" evidence. 

As far as the movie driving out the truth "one way or the other", why would that happen? Did that happen with the Zodiac movie? Nope. All that movie did was make a guy look more guilty, a guy who probably wasn't Zodiac. Movies don't have a way of driving out the truth on things. Instead, people watch a movie and assume that the movie is representing the truth because most people are either to lazy to research and find out the truth, or more likely just don't care. They watch the movie, they enjoy it or they don't, they move on. 

Now, going back a couple of posts, it is ridiculous to suggest that if you are standing beside someone on a plane that you would have a hard time judging their height. Bullshit. If you are in back of the plane and they are in the front, maybe. But standing beside someone it wouldn't matter if you were on the street, on a bus, on the moon, or in a plane. It's just something that you've come up with to further your suspect.

Finally, if someone broke into your house and 3 people got a good look at the person and knew what he was doing, you would certainly give their descriptions of the person more credence than those of someone who just saw the person in passing and had no idea what was going on. I fly all the time. I'm a pretty observant person and have a good memory. But there's no way that I could give you a description of someone on a flight that I'm on unless I was sitting beside them and having a conversation with them. Why? Because I have no reason to remember them. To suggest that the passengers on the plane descriptions of Cooper should be weighed equally to or more than the stews is absolutely ludicrous, or as Jerry Seinfeld would say "Ridicurous"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Robert, I have to be honest here. Those were a couple of pretty long posts and I'd be lying if I said I did anything more that just scan through them. You've taken Jo Weber's place for long posts that most people probably don't read.

But I will argue a couple of points here: Yes, there has been manufactured evidence in the KC story. There have been lies. The house purchased for cash thing was certainly a lie. That certainly qualifies as "manufactured" evidence. 

As far as the movie driving out the truth "one way or the other", why would that happen? Did that happen with the Zodiac movie? Nope. All that movie did was make a guy look more guilty, a guy who probably wasn't Zodiac. Movies don't have a way of driving out the truth on things. Instead, people watch a movie and assume that the movie is representing the truth because most people are either to lazy to research and find out the truth, or more likely just don't care. They watch the movie, they enjoy it or they don't, they move on. 

Now, going back a couple of posts, it is ridiculous to suggest that if you are standing beside someone on a plane that you would have a hard time judging their height. Bullshit. If you are in back of the plane and they are in the front, maybe. But standing beside someone it wouldn't matter if you were on the street, on a bus, on the moon, or in a plane. It's just something that you've come up with to further your suspect.

Finally, if someone broke into your house and 3 people got a good look at the person and knew what he was doing, you would certainly give their descriptions of the person more credence than those of someone who just saw the person in passing and had no idea what was going on. I fly all the time. I'm a pretty observant person and have a good memory. But there's no way that I could give you a description of someone on a flight that I'm on unless I was sitting beside them and having a conversation with them. Why? Because I have no reason to remember them. To suggest that the passengers on the plane descriptions of Cooper should be weighed equally to or more than the stews is absolutely ludicrous, or as Jerry Seinfeld would say "Ridicurous"

I agree with ParrotHead. Good analogy with the Zodiac movie. That film was great and had top actors and actresses. What did it do for the case? They are still debating it like we are Cooper. 
 

On the height. Don’t forget that Cooper was seen standing up by Dennis Lysne the ticket agent, the gate agent, passengers, and then at least one flight attendant walking across the tarmac and onto the plane. 
 

Robert. I disagree with you on your comments about The Cooper Forum. I think it’s a great place. There are some personalities on there, but there are also the top DB Cooper researchers too.  Dropzone is a good supplement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I agree with ParrotHead. Good analogy with the Zodiac movie. That film was great and had top actors and actresses. What did it do for the case? They are still debating it like we are Cooper. 
 

I enjoyed the Zodiac movie, they just strayed some from the facts of the case especially in the later stages of the movie. I'm sure ANY Cooper movie would do the same, that's just the way it's done in Hollywood. Very few movies about historical events stick to the facts and nothing more. I say that anyway, perhaps there are some but it seems the ones that I've seen always have some sort of embellishment of the facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Now, going back a couple of posts, it is ridiculous to suggest that if you are standing beside someone on a plane that you would have a hard time judging their height. Bullshit. If you are in back of the plane and they are in the front, maybe. But standing beside someone it wouldn't matter if you were on the street, on a bus, on the moon, or in a plane. It's just something that you've come up with to further your suspect.

Finally, if someone broke into your house and 3 people got a good look at the person and knew what he was doing, you would certainly give their descriptions of the person more credence than those of someone who just saw the person in passing and had no idea what was going on. I fly all the time. I'm a pretty observant person and have a good memory. But there's no way that I could give you a description of someone on a flight that I'm on unless I was sitting beside them and having a conversation with them. Why? Because I have no reason to remember them. To suggest that the passengers on the plane descriptions of Cooper should be weighed equally to or more than the stews is absolutely ludicrous, or as Jerry Seinfeld would say "Ridicurous"

You have presented no real argument here..

Go read research on witness recall, I posted it somewhere before.

Height recall is very imprecise, most people recall the "average". Unless a suspect was extremely short or tall, witness height recall is an estimate based on body shape, weight and even race. Height is a prompted response afterward and people throw out a guess. It isn't a fact.

Al Lee said Tina was 5' 6".. was he lying, wrong or just estimating?  Did Tina have shoes on?

To claim Cooper could not be not 5' 8" is absurd. How tall is a person 5' 8" in shoes? 5' 9".. Is 5' 9" too short? 5' 9.5"? Anybody under 5' 10" in shoes should be automatically eliminated?


You are eliminating potential suspects based on Tina's estimate...

The FBI didn't.

You eliminate based on facts, not estimates.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I occasionally read this forum but not often because there is so much.  Recently a skydiver friend of mine passed away.  At his calling hours someone related the story that right after the hijacking, he was contacted by authorities, FBI I think.  His last name was Cooper, It wasn't him but he lived in a small town in central New York State.  Interesting that they contacted someone on the other side of the country.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert, I quit after the second paragraph. Just too long and nothing there that you haven't said a hundred time already.

Look, the movie may be good. People may like it. But, I don't think it's going to lead to the truth on Kenny. Anyone that isn't delusional already knows the truth on Kenny.

Let's just disagree on that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "movie" will sure be exiting for those involved, I don't see it advancing the case in any way though.

Movies/TV shows are made for the general population and don't address the deeper complexities which most of us have wrestled with.

There is too much info in this case to do it justice..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Bigfalls said:

I occasionally read this forum but not often because there is so much.  Recently a skydiver friend of mine passed away.  At his calling hours someone related the story that right after the hijacking, he was contacted by authorities, FBI I think.  His last name was Cooper, It wasn't him but he lived in a small town in central New York State.  Interesting that they contacted someone on the other side of the country.

 

 

The FBI scoured the country for Cooper's, there was also one in Florida they looked at..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

We do NOT agree on that...and the evidence against Kenny is FAR from 'delusional' LOL. Any movie that names someone by their real name and says that person is most likely the perp on a mystery that's been going fifty years...truth WILL come out from different sources. 

 

Read what I wrote - I said let's just DISAGREE on that.

Again, look at the Zodiac movie. They named Arthur Leigh Allen by his real name and implied that he was the perp. No truth came out. They only succeeded in making Allen look guilty, even though he probably wasn't Zodiac.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

We do NOT agree on that...and the evidence against Kenny is FAR from 'delusional' LOL. Any movie that names someone by their real name and says that person is most likely the perp on a mystery that's been going fifty years...truth WILL come out from different sources. 

How do I know this without having to take psychotropic meds? :D

Easy answer. Same thing happened when Decoded came out and we released the book on Kenny. We found out more after those things happened than we did BEFORE they happened. You can dismiss Kenny as a good suspect all you want. Doesn't mean others follow your lead. The only real objections I have ever heard about the evidence comes mostly from people at the Cooper forum. And they have built-in objections to almost ANY suspect...and an agenda....mainly because if someone were actually proven to be Cooper...that entire little closed, gated, edited, and filtered community would collapse. 

I am not EU, and neither am I Jo Weber. 

[On a side note, someone asked me at Quora if passengers had ever stopped a hijacking. Another person who answered said no. I said yes, and gave a few (hopefully) entertaining examples.]

 

Here is the truth-

Robert Rackstraw was DB Cooper

Walter Reca was DB Cooper

Barb Dayton was DB Cooper

etc, etc. etc.

The truth is what people want to believe or what they see in the media and don't take the time to basic research to confirm/deny.

"It's not a lie if you believe it"  George Costanza.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting,,,, 

This is why I check old $20's against the Cooper list. It is a long shot but these old bills pop up.

 

I checked a bill number shown by the U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing as an example of termite damage... the bills were sent in to be replaced/redeemed.

The bill is piece of an old $20 and shows only part of the number in sequence 3433712  and has a 12 printed on it, making it an "L". The last letter is in a damaged area but appears to be a "C". It looks more like a "C" than a "B" but is incomplete.

I ran the number 3433712 and got the Cooper note L73433712B. Those Cooper notes were manually entered to create the FBI list.

The bill is L?3433712(C? I think) the Cooper bill is L73433712B. 

 

What are the odds of getting the bill letter plus 7 digits in correct sequence and position matching a Cooper $20?? one in a few million?

The irony is the bill was being shown by the Treasury Department.. (U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing)

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Interesting,,,, 

This is why I check old $20's against the Cooper list. It is a long shot but these old bills pop up.

 

I checked a bill number shown by the Treasury Department as an example of termite damage... the bills were sent in to be replaced/redeemed.

The bill is piece of an old $20 and shows only part of the number in sequence 3433712  and has a 12 printed on it, making it an "L". The last letter is in a damaged area but appears to be a "C". It looks more like a "C" than a "B" but is incomplete.

I ran the number 3433712 and got the Cooper note L73433712B. Those Cooper notes were manually entered to create the FBI list.

The bill is L?3433712(C? I think) the Cooper bill is L73433712B. 

 

What are the odds of getting the bill letter plus 7 sequential digits match on a Cooper $20?? one in a few million?

The irony is the bill was being shown by the Treasury Department..

 

 

Can you post a pic?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely very low odds.  If that C was a B, I'd want to dig a lot deeper.  Unlikely that someone would erase a B and make it a C, but it is possible.  Wonder what year that $20 is?  

I don't know what would have happened if the FBI had found one or even a a few of Cooper's $20's.  Look at the effect of the Tina Bar money and all the speculation.  If a few $20's had shown up in circulation, maybe they could track those back to a certain store/cashier, etc.  Money does move around fast though.  If the FBI had found $20's, it would add more weight to the theory that Cooper survived, but not make it 100% certain that he did.

Using probability distributions, I'm certain the FBI could have ruled in or out that a Cooper $20 was in circulation.  But the effort had to be put into it around 1971 to 1975 or so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Definitely very low odds.  If that C was a B, I'd want to dig a lot deeper.  Unlikely that someone would erase a B and make it a C, but it is possible.  Wonder what year that $20 is?  

I don't know what would have happened if the FBI had found one or even a a few of Cooper's $20's.  Look at the effect of the Tina Bar money and all the speculation.  If a few $20's had shown up in circulation, maybe they could track those back to a certain store/cashier, etc.  Money does move around fast though.  If the FBI had found $20's, it would add more weight to the theory that Cooper survived, but not make it 100% certain that he did.

Using probability distributions, I'm certain the FBI could have ruled in or out that a Cooper $20 was in circulation.  But the effort had to be put into it around 1971 to 1975 or so.

We get quoted the average $20 bill lasts xx years...

But Cooper bills aren't average.

If Cooper survived with some of the money...

He could have passed them into circulation and it would be very hard to find one still floating around..

However, if he stashed some away somewhere which is more likely for marked ransom money then somebody may find some and either try to exchange or sell on EBAY.

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Definitely very low odds.  If that C was a B, I'd want to dig a lot deeper.  Unlikely that someone would erase a B and make it a C, but it is possible.  Wonder what year that $20 is?  

I don't know what would have happened if the FBI had found one or even a a few of Cooper's $20's.  Look at the effect of the Tina Bar money and all the speculation.  If a few $20's had shown up in circulation, maybe they could track those back to a certain store/cashier, etc.  Money does move around fast though.  If the FBI had found $20's, it would add more weight to the theory that Cooper survived, but not make it 100% certain that he did.

Using probability distributions, I'm certain the FBI could have ruled in or out that a Cooper $20 was in circulation.  But the effort had to be put into it around 1971 to 1975 or so.

I am not a big fan of the altering bills idea, it just seems like too much work.

but, I checked and it is easy to effectively erase a bill number/letter on older bills with an electric eraser... which were common in drafting back in the 70's.

So, why change a B to a C... wouldn't it be easier to make a 3 an 8??

 

Well, the were no Cooper bills that ended in a C except for a few 1950C bills. No 1969, 1963A, 1963, 1934, 1950, 1950A or 1950B bills ended in a C.

Changing the last letter from an A or B to a C would be a good strategy for all bills (except the few 1950C notes with a C). People checking would check the year first and not get past the last letter..  

but I am still skeptical about altering all those bills.

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

47 47