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DB Cooper

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4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The grocery store break in was "roughly" 10 miles S of the dam.

 

storebreakin.jpeg.9c19511073686be5e55cd7779d5f716f.jpeg

 

 

This yellow line ends exactly 10 miles S of the dam. It is about 1.5 miles E of the flightpath (black line). I can't find any stores close to that spot at that time. These are estimates, there are stores a few miles away.

 

10mismerwindam.jpeg.a0583970f765136f299e6cede7c84cf5.jpeg

 

grocerystorebreakin.jpeg.8826b723e381e58ce6c47d450ff39c84.jpeg

Around 11:30. 3 hours and 15 minutes roughly after he landed. It’s on the flight path. He could have come from any direction, and may have been hurt. How far could he travel at night unhurt and hurt? 

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I did find the Heisson General Store, it existed in 1971. It's about 3 miles East.

 

https://goo.gl/maps/7ELQSfsGcP3hqYg38

That’s right in one of the most agreed upon drop zones. You would think the local police would have dusted for prints and if they found some, those would be on file. 

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2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Around 11:30. 3 hours and 15 minutes roughly after he landed. It’s on the flight path. He could have come from any direction, and may have been hurt. How far could he travel at night unhurt and hurt? 

Average walk speed over flat terrain is about 3.1 MPH.. 

3 hours = 9 miles from Landing point.

Rough Terrain at night and an injury could be 1 MPH or 3 miles over 3 hours

Edited by FLYJACK

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7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I did find the Heisson General Store, it existed in 1971. It's about 3 miles East.

 

https://goo.gl/maps/7ELQSfsGcP3hqYg38

That Heisson General Store is 9.7 miles South of Merwin Dam, just not directly South and 4.6 mi East of the flightpath...

This area was very rural, hard to imagine many stores in that small area, this one has to be a good candidate.

hussstore1.jpeg.8d7342797440e0ec60f1c2f55b67194a.jpeg

 

Here is a 3 mi circle and a 9 mi circle from the store. The store is due East of the flightpath time between 8:12 - 8:13..

I would think that when Cooper landed he would not follow the flightpath N or S, he would go E or W to get away from the flightpath, at least initially. No direct road from the flightpath to the store, the South Fork Lewis R is a natural obstacle in between, he would have had to wade cross it, unless he landed in the Lewisville Park..

 

 

3mi9micircle.jpeg.205dd80df4cf2944ca19992d00e2c51d.jpeg

 

EDIT,, that Heisson store is right beside a rail line going N it veers E and up to Amboy, going S it goes through Battleground and W to Vancouver Lake.

 

storerail.jpeg.48ee7c61c164cf740426192ca095758f.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

That Heisson General Store is 9.7 miles South of Merwin Dam, just not directly South and 4.6 mi East of the flightpath...

This area was very rural, hard to imagine many stores in that small area, this one has to be a good candidate.

hussstore1.jpeg.8d7342797440e0ec60f1c2f55b67194a.jpeg

 

Here is a 3 mi circle and a 9 mi circle from the store. The store is due East of the flightpath time between 8:12 - 8:13..

I would think that when Cooper landed he would not follow the flightpath N or S, he would go E or W to get away from the flightpath, at least initially. No direct road from the flightpath to the store, the South Fork Lewis R is a natural obstacle in between, he would have had to wade cross it, unless he landed in the Lewisville Park..

 

 

3mi9micircle.jpeg.205dd80df4cf2944ca19992d00e2c51d.jpeg

 

EDIT,, that Heisson store is right beside a rail line.... that line is currently unused, going N it veers E, going S it goes through Battleground and W to Vancouver Lake.

 

storerail.jpeg.48ee7c61c164cf740426192ca095758f.jpeg

I can’t see which rail line that was. Chelatchie? I have better rail maps and can do some digging. An aircrewman like Hahneman or Smith would be drawn to rail lines for navigation and as targets for bombing and recon. Smith worked for the railroad, so would be even more likely to go to a rail. 
 

My theory is Cooper escaped by rail, likely with help. 

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40 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I can’t see which rail line that was. Chelatchie? I have better rail maps and can do some digging. An aircrewman like Hahneman or Smith would be drawn to rail lines for navigation and as targets for bombing and recon. Smith worked for the railroad, so would be even more likely to go to a rail. 
 

My theory is Cooper escaped by rail, likely with help. 

 

Heisson General Store since 1907..

 

It looks like the PVJR and it is still used..

It was abandoned in 1984 sold in 1986 then restored in two sections.

http://www.pvjr.com/history.html 

http://www.pvjr.com/route.html

 

img-route1.jpg.615d9c52edd5f4cf7ee3fa82d2b07b0d.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Escaping by rail is unlikely. Those freight trains going through rural areas go pretty darn fast. The only time they really slow down isn't at a crossing...it's when they come to a rail yard. And even if some engineer slowed the train a bit near crossings, they still went way too fast to try a jump-aboard. In other words, they might drop the speed from fifty MPH or better down to maybe 30-40. Even at that speed, the second you grabbed a handle on that freight car, either your arms would be ripped from their sockets, or you would be dragged under the train and crushed. I can see you haven't hopped freights. I have. Many times. (See below)

Our farm in Sumner, WA was bordered on the back by a rail line. They blew through pretty quick every time they went by. The rail yards back then also employed 'rail dicks' who would beat the holy hell out of anyone who tried to jump a freight on the way out of the yard. It was possible to get away with that, but out in the country they didn't slow down for anyone or anybody unless they had to, or unless they pulled onto a siding to let another train pass. 

Hobos back then knew the best place to hop a freight was when that train was heading out of a yard, so they did that. How do I know these things? Back in the 70s, I was on a hitchhiking trip and hopped the rails from New Hampshire all the way back to Seattle. I met many people along the way, the types you would call legitimate hobos who chose to live that life. I learned a lot, but I would never do it again. Cooper just hopped a freight heading south to Portland, out in the country? Not a chance. The only thing that would happen is you would get yourself killed trying, and in very short order. 

You are wrong in assuming there weren't many country stores along 503 back in the old days. There were more than you think, mainly because they filled a market that people don't need anymore. People lived out there, and it was a long way to a main town for groceries. These places built up a local clientele, but eventually most of them went the way of pay phones and the dodo bird. The Heisson store is one of the few survivors of that time. Back in the 60s and early 70s life out there was a lot different than now. 

So you acknowledge he could have gotten on a train at a rail yard? 

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7 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Escaping by rail is unlikely. Those freight trains going through rural areas go pretty darn fast. The only time they really slow down isn't at a crossing...it's when they come to a rail yard. And even if some engineer slowed the train a bit near crossings, they still went way too fast to try a jump-aboard. In other words, they might drop the speed from fifty MPH or better down to maybe 30-40. Even at that speed, the second you grabbed a handle on that freight car, either your arms would be ripped from their sockets, or you would be dragged under the train and crushed. I can see you haven't hopped freights. I have. Many times. (See below)

Our farm in Sumner, WA was bordered on the back by a rail line. They blew through pretty quick every time they went by. The rail yards back then also employed 'rail dicks' who would beat the holy hell out of anyone who tried to jump a freight on the way out of the yard. It was possible to get away with that, but out in the country they didn't slow down for anyone or anybody unless they had to, or unless they pulled onto a siding to let another train pass. 

Hobos back then knew the best place to hop a freight was when that train was heading out of a yard, so they did that. How do I know these things? Back in the 70s, I was on a hitchhiking trip and hopped the rails from New Hampshire all the way back to Seattle. I met many people along the way, the types you would call legitimate hobos who chose to live that life. I learned a lot, but I would never do it again. Cooper just hopped a freight heading south to Portland, out in the country? Not a chance. The only thing that would happen is you would get yourself killed trying, and in very short order. 

You are wrong in assuming there weren't many country stores along 503 back in the old days. There were more than you think, mainly because they filled a market that people don't need anymore. People lived out there, and it was a long way to a main town for groceries. These places built up a local clientele, but eventually most of them went the way of pay phones and the dodo bird. The Heisson store is one of the few survivors of that time. Back in the 60s and early 70s life out there was a lot different than now. 

He didn't necessarily have to jump a train, he could have just walked the tracks.

How many small grocery stores were roughly 10 miles S of Merwin dam in 1971? Couldn't be very many. It was very rural and they would have been very spread out, not close to each other. The Heisson General Store is right in that spot and right next to the railway line.

You have a rail route from Amboy to Vancouver Lake, the entire route can be walked in 8-10 hours. 

On the run, it makes more sense to walk the tracks than walk a roadway..

 

Does anybody have the exact location for the Amboy chute find??

Edited by FLYJACK

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6 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Escaping by rail is unlikely. Those freight trains going through rural areas go pretty darn fast. The only time they really slow down isn't at a crossing...it's when they come to a rail yard. And even if some engineer slowed the train a bit near crossings, they still went way too fast to try a jump-aboard. In other words, they might drop the speed from fifty MPH or better down to maybe 30-40. Even at that speed, the second you grabbed a handle on that freight car, either your arms would be ripped from their sockets, or you would be dragged under the train and crushed. I can see you haven't hopped freights. I have. Many times. (See below)

Our farm in Sumner, WA was bordered on the back by a rail line. They blew through pretty quick every time they went by. The rail yards back then also employed 'rail dicks' who would beat the holy hell out of anyone who tried to jump a freight on the way out of the yard. It was possible to get away with that, but out in the country they didn't slow down for anyone or anybody unless they had to, or unless they pulled onto a siding to let another train pass. 

Hobos back then knew the best place to hop a freight was when that train was heading out of a yard, so they did that. How do I know these things? Back in the 70s, I was on a hitchhiking trip and hopped the rails from New Hampshire all the way back to Seattle. I met many people along the way, the types you would call legitimate hobos who chose to live that life. I learned a lot, but I would never do it again. Cooper just hopped a freight heading south to Portland, out in the country? Not a chance. The only thing that would happen is you would get yourself killed trying, and in very short order. 

You are wrong in assuming there weren't many country stores along 503 back in the old days. There were more than you think, mainly because they filled a market that people don't need anymore. People lived out there, and it was a long way to a main town for groceries. These places built up a local clientele, but eventually most of them went the way of pay phones and the dodo bird. The Heisson store is one of the few survivors of that time. Back in the 60s and early 70s life out there was a lot different than now. 

Robert, you stated "escaping by rail is unlikely"  Do you have a percentage you could put to that?  Like 10%, 20%, etc?  For instance, the Cleveland Browns have a 0% chance of winning the Super Bowl, the Kansas City Chiefs maybe a 50%, etc.  Not looking for deep math, but where would unlikely vs likely fall for you when it comes to escaping by rail, and what were the other options and those probabilities?  If not rail, then all by foot, car, plane, boat, etc.

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A thought about the idea of Cooper disconnecting the parachute canopy from the harness/container after he landed. And I'm not saying this to confirm or dispel whether he actually did it, because I don't know. I'm just putting some info here. Might also help to identify the Amboy chute.

First, to detail the components of a 'parachute', imagine an open parachute hanging in the sky. At the top, you have the parachute canopy itself, the big round nylon (silk) part (the pilot chute would be part of this).  Then, coming down, you have the suspension lines (only a whuffo calls them 'shroud' lines). The lines then gather into four risers (right/left/front/back, those straps that kind of look like seat belts).  The risers then attach to the harness/container at the shoulders.

Now, it sounds like Cooper was hoping/expecting to get 'sport' gear. The 'back' chutes would have been sport mains, the 'front' chutes would be the reserves that attach to them. (If he had gotten military paratrooper rigs, which were basically the same as sport rigs of those days, they would have most likely been set up for static line deployment, rather than freefall/ripcord, and would have been difficult to use unless he found a place in the stairwell to attach the static line.) But that's not what he got. Instead, the back chutes they gave him were pilot bailout rigs. The front reserves do not attach to them, because the bailout rigs ARE reserves. (Actually, the totality of what they gave him puzzles me, but that would have to be a different post.)

On sport mains, the risers attached to the harness/container by way of these thingamajigs called capewells. They come apart simply by pulling open covers, then pulling rings, to separate the risers from the harness. This would have been easy for Cooper to do by hand. (I'm not sure exactly when capewells were developed. Perhaps Mark 377 can tell us. Later on they were used to make emergency procedures safer, as a jumper would 'cutaway' a malfunctioned main in-air before deploying the reserve. This wasn't the practice at the time, but capewells were originally developed so that paratroopers could easily detach from their mains after landing to avoid being drug by winds or being entangled in trees or what-not. I'm all but certain that they did exist in '71.)

But, on the pilot bailout rig that Cooper had, the canopy does not separate from the harness so easily. The risers are an integrated part of the harness. The lines attached to the risers by a metal link. In those days I believe that would have been an 'L-bar' type of link. Those are held together by screws, and when undone separate into two parts. I'm sure a rigger would make those screws pretty tight.

So for Cooper to detach the canopy from the harness/container, he would have to have either a screwdriver, the right sized coin and a strong wrist, or most likely a knife.

So a question would be, how were the bottom of the lines on the Amboy chute? If they were attached to full risers with the top half of the capewell set-up, then not Cooper's. If the lines were on a complete set of L-bars, probably not Cooper's, because I can't imagine him taking the time to reassemble them. If they were on a half set of L-bars, or on a set of cut risers, or the lines themselves were cut, then maybe Cooper's.

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(edited)

On his website, Eric Ulis has some pics of a 727-22 airstair area.

A few things..

That plane is not equipped with the optional emergency airstair release which the "Placard" refers to. The optional emergency release system has a "pull handle" behind a second interior panel and another behind the exterior access door.

This plane's airstair release, like all North American commercial passenger 727's was modified after NORJAK..

The main handle was not just a simple push... it had a release button on the top which must be pressed. Looks to be missing in this plane. If it was dark Cooper could easily miss the top button and struggle with the handle.

 

We don't know if Northwest 305 had the optional emergency or the same handle..

This is a schematic for Northwest Airlines 727-51 airstairs and the handle looks different. All 727 handles were replaced and updated at some point. It may be impossible to find an example of the same system today..

 

northwest727-51.jpg.73489386e7e5999dab0aa15d14e1211e.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK
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Dec 26, 1966.. p 39

"Use of pure titanium and titanium alloys in commercial aircraft has been growing steadily over the years at Boeing although application has generally been limited to areas such as firewalls where temperature is a problem. High strength-to-weight ratio of titanium alloys and improved efficiency in fabrication as a result of supersonic transport research undoubtedly will lead to even greater utilization of this material in the future. For example, a typical riveted aluminum spoiler panel weighing 37.25 lb. made up of 50 parts held together with Aviation Week & Space Technology, December 1.219 fasteners costs $1,000 to make. An equivalent bonded titanium spoiler panel made up of 38 parts and 48 fasteners weighs only 26.71 lb. and costs $940.

In each Boeing 727 now rolling off the line there are about 650 lb. of titanium firewalls, bulkheads, tanks, ducts and fittings."

 

https://ia800809.us.archive.org/8/items/Aviation_Week_1966-12-26/Aviation_Week_1966-12-26.pdf

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10 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper initially asked for 2 chutes, then 4.. two back and two chest

changes2to4chutes.jpg.016b9f60fda8c98e2acf833fff6f0e12.jpg

Any thoughts as to why he changed his mind? Or was it as simple as him asking for two because he assumed each set would have a main and a reserve?

Certain air crews only jumped with a reserve. It was smaller and took up less space on the plane and could be put on faster. He may have been more comfortable with a reserve. 

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On 12/31/2019 at 9:41 PM, RobertMBlevins said:

DUDEMAN:  Your comments, maybe edited down for FBI folks who don't know much about parachutes...and possibly some pictures to go along with your assessment....should be sent to the Seattle FBI.

I'm not inclined to pester the FBI. I wouldn't know who to send it to or where. I think you do, though, it seems you've asked them questions and gotten various responses. If you want to use any of what I wrote to inquire about it, by all means be my guest, and I would be as curious as anyone to hear if you get a response.

Cossey would have known all this, though, and I can't imagine he wouldn't check that part out. Maybe that's how he assessed so quickly that it wasn't Cooper's, maybe he saw a riser set-up that was all wrong for a bailout rig. Is there any record of him mentioning that part of it? Also, I think there's a few pictures of the Amboy chute, do any of them show the bottom of the lines?

As for the FBI's treatment of evidence, that does make sense to me. If they get that chute as evidence in the case, whether they prove or disprove it's actual relevance doesn't change that. And you may be right, they may not be 100% sure about it. Law enforcement agencies are often arrogant and elitist. While they like to publicly tout their victories, I think that a lot of the time they don't feel like they owe the public any explanations about anything. When they ask the public for help, they're looking for new information/evidence. They're not asking for the public's opinion on the evidence they have.

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26 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

It's right off the RR tracks. How convenient for someone heading south on those tracks. Picture looks like there is a residence upstairs. If you were quiet enough, you might be able to get in and out in short order...then right back over the tracks. Interesting. It's even possible that because of the Thanksgiving holiday, the owners of the store were somewhere else with family. Or maybe they didn't use the residence area and had their own home nearby. I also had a thought that if Cooper had already walked several miles, and was already wanted for what amounted to a capital crime...breaking into some country store for cigarettes and some food would be no big deal. 

If that break in was indeed done by DB Cooper, then it makes me wonder about a few things.  The first would be why did he have to break into a store?  What comes to mind is he either lost his survival gear/food in the jump, figured he didn't need any and maybe landed somewhere he thought he wouldn't, or didn't really plan it all out in advance.  You would think he would have at least jumped with some food in his pockets.  

Would old police reports have an actual list of what was stolen?

The other part that comes to mind is the use of railroad tracks to move through the area.  It is certainly a good method, especially on Thanksgiving eve/morning.  What is the final destination, is it a railyard, an actual passenger station, is he meeting someone somewhere, or even getting on a train?  Lots of things to speculate about.  His goal could have been to get to tracks, and it could have taken him hours to do so.

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11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Map.

pink line = 3 mi E of flightpath

green = railway

pink dot = Heisson store

FlightPath_lrgbb.jpg.ce0e57a227bf05c7e276416dd248d08b.jpg

 

 

Great use of graphics Flyjack.  8:12 PM pressure bump/jump would put him landing right north of Battleground.  If you're Cooper, chances are you want to walk south, so what scenario gets him to the Heisson General Store, on the railroad tracks, heading south?

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14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Map.

pink line = 3 mi E of flightpath

green = railway

pink dot = Heisson store

FlightPath_lrgbb.jpg.ce0e57a227bf05c7e276416dd248d08b.jpg

 

 

Another observation.  Cooper may or may not have known where the plane was, but I'm thinking at some point while he was descending under the parachute canopy, he would have had time to look around and possibly get his bearings.  I've done it, but it was not under the same stressful conditions he was under, something tells me he did not have much time to enjoy the ride.

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Did the report of the break in come into the fbi at 11:30 or was that the time it happened? How would anybody know unless they caught the intruder in the act or if the owner or neighbor lived on premises or near by and heard something then checked it out? I’m asking because there is another report of cooper possibly on the ground at that same time 11:30 walking on lewis river road in all black. It’s about an hour and a half walk from that store to lewis river road. If he did the break in around 10 then that lines up but if he broke on around 11:30 how do explain both of those occurrences at the same time the same night? 

 

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