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DB Cooper

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Let's see..

Tina was in Gresham 1979...

She had previously moved in with her sister and brother in law Lee Dormuth, an FBI agent.

Lee E Dormuth's amateur radio address was at:

xxxx xxxxxxx Rd, Yardley Pa.. from 1972 - 1978. 

1978-1980  it changed to xxxx xxxxxxx Dr, San Diego CA

 

Lee and Tina's sister placed Tina in Gresham 1978/79 when they moved from PA to San Diego.


Did Lee Dormuth discard the Cooper money into the Columbia 78/79 to protect Tina?? 
 

Palmer report.. money definitely deposited after 1978.

"Even with this, he still felt the money was not at the site for more than a year. At the height found, the money was definitely deposited more than four years after the dredging of the Columbia River in 1974."

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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On 12/14/2019 at 12:37 AM, RobertMBlevins said:

Two pictures provided some time ago by Lyle Christiansen:

The first is a photoshopped rendition of KC with hair and sunglasses. In other words, the 'sunglasses' and some hair were ADDED. 

The second are some items in KC's possession, that were left behind at the house in Morris, MN on family visits there by KC. 

No big deal. They are what they are, I suppose. Not trying to 'prove' anything here. I just thought they might be interesting. 

Kenny and items.jpg

Kenny and items2.jpg

So, if I am reading this right, these cigarettes were left behind by Kenny at someones house?

How long does one hold on to cigarettes that someone leaves behind at their house?

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18 hours ago, ParrotheadVol said:

Figures. I dropped HBO when they quit carrying boxing and Game Of Thrones ended.

Movies really don't mean a lot these days unless it is a big box office production. Anyone can make a film.  If the movie is not interesting or not well done, then it actually hurts the case, like the ridiculous Treat Williams movie.  Public interest is clearly increased during airings of episodes such as Case Closed or Unsolved Mysteries or Expedition Unknown.  The Pageview Statistics on Wikipedia will give you a good history of what the interest in the case is. 

I put the DB Cooper viewers/researchers into roughly 3 groups:

1.  Those who know a lot about the case and are not swayed by the manufactured suspects like Rackstraw or Reca, and who don't believe the media stories on McCoy.  Some of this group have their own suspects and will not be swayed into believing anyone else could be a suspect.  Most of this group is concerned with facts about the case.  If the case were solved today, some of this group would not believe it, some would be happy it was solved, and some would be disappointed because they don't have anything else to live for.  Group 1 is almost everyone on the Cooper Forum and on this thread.

2.  Those who know a little bit about the case, and have some interest.  These are the ones who concern me, because they all seem to fall for the suspects in the media (Rackstraw, Reca, McCoy) and don't do any basic research on the details.  They know DB Cooper hijacked a plane, they could probably tell you it was in the 1970s, and that he took a lot of money.  However, they do not get into any of the relevant facts such as age, description, personality, etc.  They believe what they have been told.  If the case was solved today, they would probably believe the new suspect and realize they were wrong to think it was Rackstraw, McCoy, etc.  This group likely does not read Dropzone or Cooper Forum, and if they do, they don't post.

3.  Those who don't know who DB Cooper is, or if they do, they don't know anything except that he was a hijacker.  If the case was solved today, they would read a few snippets about it on the news and never talk about it again.

Group 2 is the target audience to educate about the case.

Edited by CooperNWO305
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I touched on this earlier but it was lost in the OT discussion..

This myth is still embedded in the Cooper consciousness and it is extremely important.

Cooper's initial demand was airstairs lowered in flight.

 

FBI file..

"HJ specified that he wanted to go to Mexico City non-stop, that the aircraft configuration must be gear DOWN, flaps at 15 deg, that the aft entry door must be open at all times, and that the aft stairs be extended after take-off. Later specified that the stairs must be fully extended before take-off

MSPFO advised crew (1) that non-stop SEA-MEX impossible with gear DOWN, flaps 15 deg, (2) that take-off with air-stairs full down impossible due to inability to rotate airplane. When HJ advised of this he asked that air-stairs be partially extended prior to take-off. MSPFO advised this also impossible since stairs could not be held in any intermediate position.

HJ had previously stated that no landing in the continental U.S. would be permitted “for fuel or anything else”. When advised of range limitation in his specified configuration, he agreed to something short of the border."

 

Why is this important.. 

First, it demonstrates that Cooper did not have extensive knowledge of the 727. He got the range wrong and the operation of the airstairs wrong.

Second, his initial demand was airstairs lowered in flight, he thought the crew controlled them from the cockpit. Tina corrected him indicating they were controlled from the rear. Cooper's plan was not to takeoff with airstairs down, that changed when landing in Reno came into play. Cooper altered his plan based on Reno. 

Based on Cooper's initial demand he did not plan to jump ASAP and that indicates his LZ wasn't pre-planned but rather an adjustment. When his no US stop demand was altered, Cooper then wanted out ASAP. He did not want to be on the plane in Reno.

Cooper's LZ was adhoc, not pre-planned.

 

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COOPERDEMANDPILOTSa.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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Cooper said stop anywhere in Mexico to refuel do not land in the US for any reason. He must have thought the plane could could make it to make that demand or the demand would have been rejected. They planned on Mazatlan for fuel.

The point is Cooper's demand changed when the destination changed.

He did not initially demand airstairs down on takeoff.

 

EVERYONE believes he wanted to jump ASAP due to his demand for airstairs down on takeoff. This is false, it wasn't his initial demand. It was an altered plan due to Reno being in play. The evidence used to speculate for a planned ASAP PNW jump is false.

If his initial demand was airstairs down on takeoff, a planned PNW jump makes sense but it wasn't.. it was lowered in flight.

IMO, he most likely wanted to jump outside the US based on his use of "US" and "American" Currency, he wasn't dressed for the PNW weather and his initial demand nonstop to anywhere in Mexico for fuel. Cooper's LZ wasn't his first plan, it was adhoc.

 

 

 

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His initial demand was no stopping in the US for any reason... that was indicative of his initial plan. At the time hijacked planes did land in Mexico and proceed to Cuba. Landing in the US was far more risky than landing in Mex to refuel.

The evidence does suggest some knowledge of the area from the air, but he had aviation knowledge/experience and was most likely ex-military so that isn't a surprise. You don't have to be local to ID Tacoma, I can do it.

There is no evidence he was a local or that he initially wanted to jump ASAP before Reno was in play.

 

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He didn't want to be on the plane when it landed in the US. His plan changed. He then jumped ASAP to give himself the most time before a Reno landing. Being on the plane when it landed in Reno was extremely risky.. he already had the money.

If the plane was going to Mex, he had much more time and range to jump.

 

IMO, he picked 305 because it was a short flight, few passengers and less likely to have air marshals. There is no evidence he was a local.

He was also described as Latin, Swarthy, Mexican in appearance...

 

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I think you're overthinking a bit of this Robert.

47 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

IMO, he picked 305 because it was a short flight, few passengers and less likely to have air marshals.

This part makes sense. He's got to take off, hijack the plane and make his demands, then land somewhere to collect the money and parachutes. It's where he goes from there...

If he says 'go to Mexico' and he doesn't think they'll know when he jumps, that makes for a huge search area. That makes sense. Speculating about the Federales storming the plane when it lands does not make sense, because he clearly has no intention of being on it then regardless of where he had hoped to jump.

As for being familiar with the area from the air, it's possible that he made some reconnaissance flights beforehand to to check out the terrain. If you're planning to make a jump, it's certainly prudent to be at least somewhat familiar with your possible landing areas. Doesn't necessarily mean he's a local.

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7 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Assuming Cooper made recon flights is a bit of a stretch. I don't think Cooper did that for two reasons. First, it costs money and then you have to assume he was either a pilot, or he would be leaving a witness out there. ("Yeah...I flew the guy around there a couple of times. His name was...")

No, I'm thinking he could've just taken an airline flight out of SeTac heading south and just watched out the window. Just get a general idea of the terrain and the layout.

11 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

If that 727 had landed in Mexico City with no passengers and only four crew on board, it isn't a stretch to think they would just storm the plane during refueling, pull the crew off, and shoot Cooper in the back of the plane.

My thought here is that when all of this happens, Cooper's already gone.

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7 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

No, I'm thinking he could've just taken an airline flight out of SeTac heading south and just watched out the window. Just get a general idea of the terrain and the layout.

My thought here is that when all of this happens, Cooper's already gone.

Dudeman, I agree.  I'm of the belief that he made a recon flight, or multiple flights.  I firmly believe he chose Northwest for a specific reason, and likely used other airlines for his other flights, in his normal hairstyle which was not jet black.  If your goal is to get $200,000, then spending $25 a few times is nothing.  A few recon flights could keep you out of prison.  I also believe he had aerial recon experience, so recon flights would have been standard.

I also think he could have looked out the window and spotted landmarks, or at least lights and darkness.  You may not know where you are in the air, but you can see the change from lights to darkness (city to country).

Edited by CooperNWO305
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8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

What plan? There is no evidence pointing to a solid plan, other than a demand for money and chutes, and a flight in the opposite direction back toward Mexico. Cooper never revealed any plan that actually made sense, although he gave away a bit of it when you look at where he actually jumped, which was far north of Mexico, or even Reno for that matter. 

The fact that he hijacked a flight actually going in the OPPOSITE direction from where he told people he wanted to go is what I call a 'tell'. It tells you he never had any intention from the start of going to Mexico, or even Reno for that matter. 

So if he never had any intention of going to Mexico in the first place, then what was his actual plan?

The only evidence of that is to look at where he actually jumped. Somewhere between Seattle and Portland. From that action alone, you can assume he either lived near Seattle, or perhaps Portland. This assumption leans more toward Seattle, because the things he said during the flight show he was probably more familiar with the Puget Sound area than he was familiar with the Portland area. The airstairs question, whether he asked on the ground, or wanted them opened as soon as they were airborne is another 'tell'. This says to me he wasn't planning to stay aboard very long. 

There are a great number of 'tells' in his behavior and actions during the flight, which is what we know most about regarding Cooper's behavior. (What he said and did on the flight) For example, the tie was a few years out of style. And unlike the other evidence, which he disposed of, (briefcase, non working reserve chute, matchbooks, etc) he just tosses it casually over the seat. This tells me he wasn't worried about it being traced to him later, and the whole tie analysis thing was probably a waste of time. (Unless he got it from someone he knew, and THAT person could be connected to the tie) Otherwise, it is probably useless as evidence and somehow Cooper knew that. 

Sometimes I ask people:  "Try to put yourself in the shoes of the hijacker..." Or "Listen to the things he actually said..."

My opinion is that some investigators (not you specifically, I mean everyone in general) waste too much time looking at things that will never help solve the case, or don't really matter. Look at his actions. The things he says. The things he does that we know for certain are accurate. The road to at least *some* truths about Cooper are there. 

 

What plan? his initial plan, his initial demand airstairs lowered in flight... he thought the pilots controlled the airstairs. Is it rational to assume that when he made his initial demand he didn't have an LZ in mind? Of course he did.

He had to have an initial plan, otherwise the entire operation was ad-hoc.

My point is his airstair demand changed when Reno was in play and that suggests his LZ was not his first plan.

The plane direction is irrelevant, it was refuelled in SEA. He wanted a 727 that fit his timeframe.

There is no evidence he was local, none. There is no evidence he wasn't. There is evidence he had some familiarity with Tacoma and McChord.

Assuming he is local to where he jumped is just a guess.

 

I am looking at his words and actions, his demand changed when circumstances changed that indicates his plan changed. Everyone has missed this point because the dominant and false narrative is that his initial demand was airstairs down on take-off..

 

Think about it, why make the demand to MEX nonstop in US if he didn't believe it was possible. It makes no sense to make a demand that he knew would be rejected.

His initial plan was based on the plane flying to MEX. Airstairs lowered in flight.

If Reno didn't matter to his LZ why change his demand to airstairs lowered on take-off.

IMO, his eventual LZ was not his plan when he made his initial demands and that is a game changer.

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2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Dudeman, I agree.  I'm of the belief that he made a recon flight, or multiple flights.  I firmly believe he chose Northwest for a specific reason, and likely used other airlines for his other flights, in his normal hairstyle which was not jet black.  If your goal is to get $200,000, then spending $25 a few times is nothing.  A few recon flights could keep you out of prison.  I also believe he had aerial recon experience, so recon flights would have been standard.

I also think he could have looked out the window and spotted landmarks, or at least lights and darkness.  You may not know where you are in the air, but you can see the change from lights to darkness (city to country).

I have a flight manifest showing Hahneman flying to SEA on Northwest Airlines many years before NORJAK.. 

but wouldn't most (ex)military personnel have some familiarity with McChord even if they weren't based there.

Knowing McChord and Tacoma from the air doesn't indicate a local. 

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Interesting..  Tina made 5 trips.

1. got the money

2. got 1st backchute

3. got both chest reserve chutes

"She also gave the hijacker a sheet of instructions on how to use the parachutes, but he told her he did not need it." 

4. got the 2nd backchute

5. got meals, maps and (radio)

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43 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I have a flight manifest showing Hahneman flying to SEA on Northwest Airlines many years before NORJAK.. 

but wouldn't most (ex)military personnel have some familiarity with McChord even if they weren't based there.

Knowing McChord and Tacoma from the air doesn't indicate a local. 

Practically everyone in the military has heard of Fort Lewis and McChord.  Those were staging bases for troop movement to the Pacific in WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq/Afghanistan.  Both those bases were also on maps (crazy as it might sound).  Anyone in the Seattle area would know too.

Little anecdote.  Before GPS, military actually learned land navigation using a map and compass.  I spent years doing land navigation training off and on, and we used the Tenino map sheet, which was right near Fort Lewis.  Having not been to the area at the time, I would have felt confident navigating on the ground there. The rivers, mountains, and all other terrain features were burned in my memory.  

Someone confident with a map and compass (military, Boy Scout, hiker) would have been ok on the ground after a jump.  Someone confident in the air (air crew, pilot, navigator) would have been confident in the air.

Knowing Tacoma or Fort Lewis does not mean he was from the area.  That's just one more fallacy that DB Cooper laughed about to his grave.

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Very risky to roll dice in this context. What was average age of hijacker's? what was Cooper's age?  Roll the dice on that one, snake eyes..

Cooper is unique, he wasn't caught while the others were, snake eyes again. Most hijackings were political or mental issues, Cooper was on another level.

One could argue he wasn't caught because he wasn't local..

I see zero evidence to claim he was local, though It can't be ruled it out it leans to not local..

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IMO, PNW was not his initial LZ.

If Cooper changed his LZ when Reno was in play...

Could Cooper have been local to MEX? That also fits your assumption.

 

Cooper's demand was MEX CITY, stop anywhere in MEX to refuel and NO stops in US, airstairs lowered in flight.

 

Supporting evidence:

Cooper initially demanded to got to MEX. Everybody assumes this was a ruse, there is no evidence for that. In fact, it is irrational for Cooper to make a demand he knew was unachievable and would be rejected. He thought the plane was going to MEX to refuel.

Cooper changed his airstair demand when Reno was in play suggesting he changed his LZ to ASAP. Wouldn't changing to airstairs down on takeoff be the tell for a jump ASAP. That nullifies the long range argument.

Cooper used the term "US" currency (Tina) "American" currency (pilots). Those terms would be very rare for somebody without foreign currency exposure to use, indicating Cooper spent time a non US currency environment (foreign).

Cooper was described as swarthy, Latin American, Mexican in appearance.

Cooper was not dressed for a PNW jump.

Cooper did not give a heading, he jumped in an spot that he wasn't in control of. It was ad-hoc.

Ex TBAR, the money never turned up, it would have been easy to use outside the US.

Cooper was unique and never id'd.

 

Add these up, it leans non local.

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

IMO, PNW was not his initial LZ.

If Cooper changed his LZ when Reno was in play...

Could Cooper have been local to MEX? That also fits your assumption.

 

Cooper's demand was MEX CITY, stop anywhere in MEX to refuel and NO stops in US, airstairs lowered in flight.

 

Supporting evidence:

Cooper initially demanded to got to MEX. Everybody assumes this was a ruse, there is no evidence for that. In fact, it is irrational for Cooper to make a demand he knew was unachievable and would be rejected. He thought the plane was going to MEX to refuel.

Cooper changed his airstair demand when Reno was in play suggesting he changed his LZ to ASAP. Wouldn't changing to airstairs down on takeoff be the tell for a jump ASAP. That nullifies the long range argument.

Cooper used the term "US" currency (Tina) "American" currency (pilots). Those terms would be very rare for somebody without foreign currency exposure to use, indicating Cooper spent time a non US currency environment (foreign).

Cooper was described as swarthy, Latin American, Mexican in appearance.

Cooper was not dressed for a PNW jump.

Cooper did not give a heading, he jumped in an spot that he wasn't in control of. It was ad-hoc.

Ex TBAR, the money never turned up, it would have been easy to use outside the US.

Cooper was unique and never id'd.

 

Add these up, it leans non local.

 

 

 

I agree. Non local. The best indicator of him being from somewhere else than the Pacific Northwest is that he was never caught. Someone from far away would not have friends and relatives looking at him thinking he might be DB Cooper. Also, a lot of the articles after the hype died down were mainly in the Northwest, and still are. Frankly, people in say North Carolina don’t care as much about DB Cooper as people in Oregon. 
 

I think he chose Mexico City because that was the max range for the 727, and he wanted to make it look like he’d be in the air for a long time. But why stay in the air that long and risk adding more and more chase planes or people on the ground? 
 

Regardless of where he wanted to jump, I’d like to know how he planned to escape. Did he have a radio? Was he going to use a pay phone or a pre arranged pickup spot? Was he going to walk out on his own or maybe camp out for a few days?

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Hahneman made the same demand to fly to MEX.. then in the air over MEX he directed to a specific location/path near Honduras before he jumped off the aft airstairs. The plane landed in MEX.

The chase planes stopped following over the Gulf of Mexico. He was clear.

A US official claimed that Hahneman had planned his 727 hijacking for years, he wasn't a Cooper copycat as commonly stated.

My theory, if Hahneman was Cooper was that he intended to fly over Mexico and jump in Honduras. To redirect the plane once in MEX.. and refuelled.

But, when the plane was to land in Reno, he changed his plan to jump ASAP.. Remember, Cooper gave no route for the plane, his LZ was ad-hoc, Reno was not even his suggestion. He had aviation experience and he may have recognized some landmarks/lights but he had no input for the plane's route. This is unique for hijackings.

Cooper demanded going to MEX City, but land to refuel anywhere in MEX. If he just wanted to state a long route to buy time why say both. Why land anywhere in MEX for fuel and then also state MEX City as a destination.

 

Hahneman hijacked a 727 plane in PA, it flew to New Orleans where they faked a mechanical problem. Hahneman knew they were faking and demanded a second plane be brought tail to tail where he had to make a risky transfer. He was aware of snipers and used the crew as a tight shield to move between planes. This is where he held a gun to the captain. The FBI had put him in a vulnerable position moving between 727's.

 

1ac268a1286b9e7198531f9db531eaaa--route-jungle.jpg.53f13764ca0b9cdcf7ecb2ea26d3af6e.jpg

 

 

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