mrshutter45 21 #53501 November 9, 2019 (edited) As mentioned, these planes are no longer in service and show missing parts. most of the wall is missing in this photo above. each airline is different. while Continental airline crews didn't know about the system doesn't imply NWO didn't or that it had these placards. the safety card is not a placard location card. even with the photo I provided a while back showing the door to the normal stairs open does credit the fact that the placard is not below or beside the emergency panel or we would see it. only above the panel is blocked. it's not uncommon to have multiple placards. the safety card could of been the same card prior to adding a placard... Edited November 9, 2019 by mrshutter45 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53502 November 9, 2019 (edited) Hicks decal doesn't exactly match either system.. 727-100 Main system.. open access panel and push control lever outward.. Not even close Optional system.. remove panel, break flange and pull red handle.. Close We need to know which model and 727 variant that decal is used on.. there are many different emergency airstair release decals for 727's.. The safety card may tell us if NWA 727's had the optional emergency release system not the placard itself.. Edited November 9, 2019 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53503 November 9, 2019 I have to try and contact Hominid. I seem to recall him saying they also had the emergency handle in the box. that would explain opening an access door.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53504 November 9, 2019 54 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: The safety card may tell us if NWA 727's had the optional emergency release system not the placard itself.. It's not a placard location card. and it does imply not all the planes they have with stairs had this system...it doesn't show markings on either surface on the card. it's explaining the action. The blueprints would be the opposite. they show where the placards are placed but don't explain how to use the system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53505 November 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said: It's not a placard location card. and it does imply not all the planes they have with stairs had this system...it doesn't show markings on either surface on the card. it's explaining the action. The blueprints would be the opposite. they show where the placards are placed but don't explain how to use the system. Is there an echo in here.. I said that it doesn't show the Placard.. Some airlines 727-100 safety cards don't show the optional emergency system, The NW Orient safety card will indicate whether their 727's had that system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53506 November 9, 2019 Eric Ulis wrote.. "I have no issue with the wording. It is a door whether it's on a hinge or not.Nonetheless, Boeing verified this placard described the use of the emergency airstair release behind the two-hole door/panel." They did? Boeing only described it as being near the aft door.. Is Eric exaggerating again or did Boeing actually verify that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53507 November 9, 2019 The FBI had more info and access to resources then than we do now,, publicly for some reason they did not determine or conclude the Hicks placard came from Cooper. They immediately walked back the Sheriff's assertions. There are only two possibilities. The Hicks placard can't be confirmed from Cooper. or... The FBI knows it came from Cooper and they are lying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53508 November 9, 2019 They will not lock down in the open position while in flight, period. normal release or the emergency release will not work. the wind load will stop it from going all the way down. There is no way to know that the decal was found and remained in that location for seven years.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53509 November 9, 2019 21 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said: Well, I don't know. Did the Hicks placard actually come from the Cooper jet. That's the big question, isn't it? Okay. First...you have to determine something about the 'normal' or 'primary' release system. In other words...since they are hydraulically activated, do they lock into place once they reach the limit of drop...or do they just sit on the ground without locking? We already know two things. That the Cooper airstairs were not locked into place. We know this because the airflow kept them up to a degree. Bill Rataczak has said this is the case, but he didn't say whether that happened when using the primary system, or the emergency system. Or whether they locked into place when you used the primary system. If the primary system DOES lock when it reaches the end of its travel, this means Cooper used the emergency system. There are references mentioning that the airstairs, when used on the ground, can help stabilize the aircraft while passengers are deplaning or boarding, especially on less-than-perfect runway situations. Another thing to check is to determine where on the flight path map the jet actually WAS at the time flight engineer H.A. first saw the airstairs-open indicator light flash on his instrument panel. If you can compare that point on the map to the location where the placard was found... And you see that the distance exceeds nine miles, or three minutes flying time...then the Hicks claim has to be questioned. A drift of more than nine miles to the north for the placard seems excessive to me, even from 10,000 feet. Simply put, if the airstairs were first opened when the jet was over Lake Merwin or something, it is likely the placard found so far further NORTH...probably isn't from Norjak. Hard to believe Hicks would lie, and even take the FBI out into the woods based upon a lie...but I would check this anyway. I suppose another possibility is that Hicks found it elsewhere from where he said...but that is hard to believe. I don't see a motivation. You can get in big trouble taking the FBI on a wild goose chase. EDIT: If you want to ask questions about all this with a stew or pilot or whomever from NWO...your best source on that is probably to contact that guy who runs the NWO History Center in Minneapolis. He knows them all. You remember...they've had Bill Rataczak speak at their gatherings a couple of times. Bruce Kitt is his name. Issues. If Cooper used the optional emergency system the FBI would have known. The FBI claimed the placard was noticed missing after the flight test, not before and it may have come from the test or even another 727. Why claim that? Either the FBI couldn't determine it came from Cooper or they did and are lying. I don't think we will ever solve this now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53510 November 9, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said: Airflow would keep the stairs up for sure...if the emergency system was used. However, if the primary system, the POWERED system were used...you have to determine if the stairs would still lock in place even in flight. For example...landing gear are hydraulic and airflow or no they lock into place. I have read here and there that the airstair system, at least the primary control, may be an extend-and-lock type. In that recent video I posted, (not the Kum-ba-yah one, the one showing airstairs being tested) you can hear the noise from the hydraulics on the video. I dunno. Might want to talk to the guy in the video. He might know a lot about this whole airstair thing. The 727-200 is different from the 727-100.. From Northwest maintenance manual.. Northwest 727-51 (100 series) and Northwest 727-251 (200 series) Northwest 727-51 (Norjak) I don't see the emergency system here, doesn't mean it isn't there. Northwest 727-251 Edited November 9, 2019 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53511 November 9, 2019 The stairs are not meant to be deployed in the air. they can be lowered and that's it. they will not lock... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53512 November 9, 2019 15 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said: Systems might be different, but placard content and construction...hard to say. Flight engineer has said that the airstairs-open indicator light flashed on....then about the time they thought Cooper jumped that the indicator light went OFF for a moment...(stairs rebounding ALMOST to closed) and then the light came back ON all the way to Reno. Sounds like the emergency system was used. Maybe. That only shows the stairs closed enough for the light to go off and on. has nothing to do with the emergency system. you are implying they were locked. if that was the case they wouldn't retract!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53513 November 9, 2019 (edited) I had to go way back in my notes... Originally, I had speculated that Cooper failed to use the main control because it requires a button to pressed on the top of the handle. When that failed he used the emergency system and the placard was attached to the removable door. (that may account for the fasteners) The only indicator light was "not locked".. "Tina noticed the red indicator light on the second officer’s panel indicating Airstair operation. A RED light indicated the Airstairs were unlocked. IMPORTANT- A RED LIGHT INDICATES AIRSTAIRS OPEN BUT NOT LOCKED UP OR DOWN. AN AMBER LIGHT INDICATES AIRSTAIR LEVER IN RAISING POSITION. A GREEN LIGHT INDICATED DOWN AND LOCKED" However, I moved away from that when I found the statements from the FBI and the fact that the FBI had to know if Cooper used the emergency system. The ONLY way this works now is if the FBI knows Cooper used the emergency system and is lying about it. Otherwise, they could not determine if the placard came from Cooper. Edited November 9, 2019 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53514 November 9, 2019 show me any placard on the stairs with fasteners...that doesn't fly. it's a decal. it would stick very well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53515 November 9, 2019 I'm only aware of two lights on the panel... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53516 November 9, 2019 22 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said: show me any placard on the stairs with fasteners...that doesn't fly. it's a decal. it would stick very well. The Hicks placard has what appear to be fastener tears in it.. obviously a decal doesn't need fasteners. DUH.. I was speculating that the fasteners were for the removable panel that the decal was affixed to. If the panel had a decal, was removed then replaced with new fasteners for example,, the decal would now be under the fasteners... You always misread my comments, those tear patterns are not from a decal just stuck on a wall and you are correct, it doesn't match any other decal.. So, where did those tears come from.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53517 November 9, 2019 (edited) Haven't you posted several pics placing marks where you believe pop rivets or screws were? the pull out panel probably has male and female connections in each corner..like a speaker cover... Edited November 9, 2019 by mrshutter45 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53518 November 9, 2019 16 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: I was speculating that the fasteners were for the removable panel that the decal was affixed to the placard will not fit on that panel. it's too big and doesn't have holes in it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53519 November 9, 2019 35 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said: I'm only aware of two lights on the panel... I looked it up years ago and it is my notes,, I'll see if I can find the source again.. but I did find that the emergency airstair system did also have an exterior system, it also used a red handle and was pulled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53520 November 9, 2019 1 minute ago, mrshutter45 said: the placard will not fit on that panel. it's too big and doesn't have holes in it? I know it doesn't match the outer panel with finger holes, I don't know about the inner one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53521 November 9, 2019 no placard will be behind the panel...the handle is there to pull.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53522 November 9, 2019 Just now, mrshutter45 said: no placard will be behind the panel...the handle is there to pull.. no, there is another "break away" panel behind the outer one before you get to the red handle. The Hicks placard fits the exterior emergency release instructions better.. with the fastener holes in it, I am going to focus on trying to find that instruction decal. There is an emergency release instruction decal in there I just don't know what it says.. It would be attached inside here... (I realize Boeing said inside the aft door but there is another decal that goes there, very similar and only one digit off the Hicks placard number) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53523 November 9, 2019 Ok, now I see what you are talking about... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #53524 November 9, 2019 The placard on the outside says to pull the red handle up? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #53525 November 9, 2019 1 minute ago, mrshutter45 said: The placard on the outside says to pull the red handle up? Not on the 727-100 optional emergency release system, read this... "pull sharply on red T handle" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
